Damn you and your cards, limiting my right to talk out of my ass.
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Damn you and your cards, limiting my right to talk out of my ass.
I like video games.
Burgundy: "It's unlike other FPS's, but it's still an FPS"? If this line of thinking, that it's an FPS since it's first person and you shoot sometimes, were carried over into the genre of 2d side scrolling games, then you'd have Mario and Super Metroid grouped with Contra and Metal Slug. Come on man, it's got a first person perspective and you shoot sometimes, those are the similarities with every other FPS. You don't really get different "guns", the combat is completely different from every other FPS in that the enemies move and act in ways that wouldn't be feasible with straight FPS controls, the focus of the game has nothing to do with your shooting skills compared to how much it's focused on exploration and puzzle solving skills. It's not an FPS and shouldn't be compared to FPS', unless we're going to start comparing Mario to Contra.
It all depends on how far you stretch you're categorization. Everyone does it differently. I call everything from Doom to Metroid Prime to Deus Ex first-person shooters and I call both Mario and Contra platformers.
Prime takes place in the first person.
It involves shooting a lot more often than sometimes.
It has lots of different weapons. Ten, at last count. The fact that these weapons are modifications to the basic arm cannon is sort of irrelevant.
I've said that the combat is different. Prime is an FPS with a lock-on and errratic targets.
Take a trip through the Mines, then tell me shooting skill is irrelevant.
And I'd definitely put Mario and Contra in the same category. At least the originals. I think they're more alike than either is to Metroid.
I never said the game doesn't involve shooting skills, I said the game isn't focused on them as much as it is on other things like exploration. To call a game a shooter it's focus should be shooting, Metroid's isn't. It's created a new genre, it's a First Person Adventure game or a First Person Exploration game. But this genre stuff is meaningless in the first place, I only mentioned it to point out that critisizing Metroid Prime for not being a good FPS is like critisizing Quake for not having enough exploration.
One thing Prime cannot take credit for is inventing a new genre. Like with the game I mentioned a few pages back, the FPS/Adventure genre has been done before.
OK. Let me clarify.Quote:
Originally posted by burgundy
This is perhaps the dumbest post you've ever made, and you've made some pretty dumb posts.
I don't like first person games.
To me they are shit.
All of them.
Even the "good" ones.
Quote:
Originally posted by 88mph
Correct. I think its a piece of shit.
I'm not arguing with you, or anyone else (for once).Quote:
Originally posted by Dragonmaster Dyne
oh wow....best valid argument EVER. mebbe you're shit for getting ill. seriously....that is the lamest argument ever.
I'm stating facts. I don't enjoy first person games.
Prime had plenty of emphasis on shooting. I didn't beat **PISSED-OFF WILL WARNING** Ridley **END PISSED-OFF WILL WARNING** by exploring him.
To say that Metroid isn't about shooting because it's about exploration is to say that Mario isn't about jumping because it's abour running.
That made no sense...
How so? I made an over-the-top example illustrating how silly the "Prime isn't about shooting" is.
me tooQuote:
I like video games.
I take offence to Quake III Arena being called a First-Person-Shooter because I only play Gauntlet DM's... therefore I, or my opponets do not shoot at all.
Metroid Prime is a first person shooter.
ºTracer
Metroid Prime = First Person Adventure. Play it first dudes. Metroid Prime = Best. Game. Ever.
There are only two answers to everyone complaining about the control scheme:
1. You haven't played the game enough. You pick it up fairly easily after a while, and for the pace of the game, it's all quite intuitive once you wrap your brain around the fact that you're not playing Halo.
-Or-
2. You suck. I'm sorry, you're not unique, not special, Miyamoto hasn't failed you. You just lack the motor coordination necessary to play it. Track and Field awaits. Have fun.
And to anyone saying they should have used the triggers for firing - are you nuts?? Can you imagine the backlash if they'd done away with the old Metroid style completely? At least this way they keep the old face button layout. And they have a game that isn't derided as being "just like every other fps".
Then Super Metroid is a 2D shooter.Quote:
Originally posted by TracerBullet
Metroid Prime is a first person shooter.
I haven't enjoyed the FPS genre all that much either. The only ones I played to completion were Doom and Powerslave.
Speaking of Powerslave though -- for whatever reasons I connected with that excellent game, it seems it would be the same reasons I enjoy Metroid Prime.
The atmosphere is one -- I guess I like the sci-fi storyline of Egyptian Alien Gods , and I also like the Metroid world. So many FPS games seem to be military-based or spy-based, or are simply deathmatches. Personally I like 1-player adventure games, even when they are FPS 1-player adventure games.
Something about Powerslave's fusion of platforming, adventuring, puzzle solving, and shooting grabbed me. Metroid has these same elements. The one thing I really like about Metroid though -- you don't run out of ammo, and alien creatures regenerate as you revisit places. This keeps the action level high, a good thing. You can never shoot enough War Wasps.
Me too ^_^Quote:
Originally posted by Clash_Master
I like video games.
Neither answer really applies to me. I've played enough to get used to the controls. I only died once so far. I never said the controls were unmanageable or that they even sucked. They work for that they were trying to do. But I still don't feel they are perfect.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
There are only two answers to everyone complaining about the control scheme:
1. You haven't played the game enough.
-Or-
2. You suck.
Honestly, I don't blame Retro. I blame Nintendo for designing their controller for nothing but their own games. No one can convince me that it's a good controller. The only good thing to me is that it's confortable. The button layout, c-stick, d-pad and the triggers are horrible (IMHO, of course :D ). I could think of so many ways to change the controls if it were to use say the X-Box S-controller, with it's two extra buttons.
I still just wished they had at least the extra option of changing the controls manually (as I think all games should, period. That's definitely one thing PC gaming has up on consoles: control configurability) to use dual-analog. Hell, I'd even switch mid-battle if I felt one was feeling inadequate for a certain situation.
This is the difference for me in giving this game the jizzing-on-yourself glowing esteem 95% of this board has toward this game. I don't even wish to play this way so it plays more like Halo. Moreso cause it's basically becoming the standard way to control first person, and even some third person games where being able to see and know your environment is key. It just feels soooooo intuitive to me, at least, to be able to look and move at the same time. You can't expect me to go backwards and just like it. Hell, I'd even have opted for a combination of the two and have to ability to lock on manually while at the same time being able to look freely w/ the C-stick. Actually, I think this would have been the best way to play.
Call me crazy (as I'm sure you all will ANYWAY...), but this is how I'd arrange the controls:
L Analog Pad - Forward/Backward movement, Left/Right strafing (regular Up/Down/Left/Right controls in Morph Ball mode)
C-Stick - Look Around
D-pad - Change Visor
R-trigger - Jump
L-trigger - Lock-on
Z-button - Morph ball
A-button - Shoot
B-button - Missiles
X-button - Beam Select (Cycle forward)
Y-button - Beam Select (Cycle backward)
Start button - Map/Inventory/Game Options/Etc.
By just moving the map to the start screen, this still maintains all of the functions of the game, with the only real compromise being the changing of weapons. But since there's only four, cycling through them should be quick and relatively painless (I can't say with 100% accuracy, as I don't have all four beams yet. Let me know if this is impossible for later battles, without spoiling them of course. :D ) If this were in the option screen as a secondary configuration, I'd think it to be superior.
Okay, I think I'm done arguing my case. If anyone refutes my statements maybe I'll reply, but I'd like to get back to more playing, once I can get back to my friend's house to continue my game. I'll just leave off by saying: There is nothing wrong with the controls, but it could be better.....
You would have us taking our finger off of the C stick to shoot, which would kind of ruin that whole aming thing. How could you shoot while looking upwards, even with the lock on for enemies, you would have to do some fancy stuff just to shoot those doors on the ceiling.Quote:
Originally posted by SonofdonCD
L Analog Pad - Forward/Backward movement, Left/Right strafing (regular Up/Down/Left/Right controls in Morph Ball mode)
C-Stick - Look Around
D-pad - Change Visor
R-trigger - Jump
L-trigger - Lock-on
Z-button - Morph ball
A-button - Shoot
B-button - Missiles
X-button - Beam Select (Cycle forward)
Y-button - Beam Select (Cycle backward)
Start button - Map/Inventory/Game Options/Etc.
JM
Those controls are a million times worse. The Controls for Prime right now are as good as they get for what you do in Metroid Prime. Its not like Retro (the team members had made such games as Half-Life and the first Turok) are not familiar with FPS at all, they are well aware of common FPS controls and I bet they found they just won't work.
Like StriderKyo said, if you can't manage these simple controls you lack skill. Its not hard to control at all, infact its easier. Why would you want controls to be more difficult? It would do nothing to improve the game.
I fail to see how the Prime controlls are hindering anybody. I mean, my God, it's a first person game where I can jump from platform to platform with accuracy. That right there is a miracle of game design, and I attribute that to not having to press the Z button on the player 3 controll pad with my toes in order to execute a jump as standard FPS controlls would have me do. :) Seriously, it looks like they set out to make a game where you could jump around as you wanted and explore without worrying about it, and the controlls let you do just that.
Well, in my trying to compromise with Stryder-kyo's whole "Keeping with the old Metroid style" (plus, I was dead tired writing that post :o ) I didn't put the shoot and missiles on the R and Z triggers, which would make more sense if using the C-stick to look. I'd be nice to also have the option of using a look spring or not. (you know, to have the game automatically spring back the screen to the default position)
So:
And again, I'm not saying I'd throw away the current control scheme. Like I said, the current scheme is fine. I'm trying to come up with another one that I would have liked the option of using. There have been plenty of games I wish I had more control over when it comes to the button layout, even good games. (I'm sure plenty of people would love the opportunity to change the control scheme in, say, Res Evil.) This is just the latest one.Quote:
L Analog Pad - Forward/Backward movement, Left/Right strafing (regular Up/Down/Left/Right controls in Morph Ball mode)
C-Stick - Look Around
D-pad - Change Visor
R-trigger - Shoot
L-trigger - Lock-on
Z-button - Missiles
A-button - Jump
B-button - Morph ball
X-button - Beam Select (Cycle forward)
Y-button - Beam Select (Cycle backward)
Start button - Map/Inventory/Game Options/Etc.
I know it's not popular to say anything "Bad" about this game, and I'm the only one complaining at this point, but it's only because I wanted to love this game totally. I was one of its supporters early on, as soon as I heard about it being a first-person game. It made so much sense to me, and I knew it would ge awesome, even the best the Gamecube had to offer. But once I heard you couldn't free look while moving, I was disappointed. I thought I could get over it and not miss it, but I can't. I can and will (obviously) use the controls as is, but can you fault me for wishing for something better? I've known other players to use control setups totally different from mine, as what they feel is comfortable and intuitive to their play style is different to mine. So why can't some of you understand where I'm coming from?
So for the 17,000 time: the controls are fine, they get the job done, they work, there's nothing inherently wrong with them. BUT, things could be better.
I guess your scheme could work - however, I don't think beam cycling would get the job done in intense firefights with different colored Pirates. Also, firing charged missiles with R and Z seems terribly awkward.
Hey, what's one mans "Awkward" is another man's "Hey, this is alright!" :DQuote:
Originally posted by burgundy
I guess your scheme could work - however, I don't think beam cycling would get the job done in intense firefights with different colored Pirates. Also, firing charged missiles with R and Z seems terribly awkward.
Another question - why do you need to strafe if you have the lock-on? People are complaining that the lock-on makes things too easy, yet they want to be able to strafe. The whole point is that the lock-on equals the strafe.
Although I do see your point about more options always being better. I wish RE had a different control scheme, and I don't think I would have played Jet Force Gemini at all if I was stuck with the default scheme.
Well that's true. That's why there are customizeable controls in the first place. Hey I like some weird stuff, like putting rapid fire on trigger buttons and strange things...hell for my emulators (I know it's a keyboard thus open to more customization) my primary buttons are Ctrl and Alt!
FINALLY, someone sees my point! :cool:Quote:
Originally posted by burgundy
Another question - why do you need to strafe if you have the lock-on? People are complaining that the lock-on makes things too easy, yet they want to be able to strafe. The whole point is that the lock-on equals the strafe.
Although I do see your point about more options always being better. I wish RE had a different control scheme, and I don't think I would have played Jet Force Gemini at all if I was stuck with the default scheme.
About strafing: it just works in First Person games to have strafing when it comes to moving your character AND looking at the same time, at least to me. I guess you could also have the option of not doing that and just having the left analog control Up/Down/Left/Right. That would be fine too. But I hate bumping into corners while trying to turn every now and again, so I probably wouldn't use that option myself.
And personally, I never claimed lock-on was easy, as the enemy has to be in the immediate area of the cursor in order to lock on to it anyway. If I'd figured that out earlier on, I probably wouldn't have died on that boss like I mentioned earlier.
My point is that people who are bitching that the lock-on is dumbing down the gameplay but then also bitch that there's no dual stick set-up functioning as basically the same thing as the lock-on without pressing the L button are being unnecessarily anal and stupid.
sorry...dumbest quote ever. i know theres heavy sarcasm here but standard fps controls are not hard at all.Quote:
Originally posted by Chibi Nappa
and I attribute that to not having to press the Z button on the player 3 controll pad with my toes in order to execute a jump as standard FPS controlls would have me do. :)
Even though I really like the controls, I still don't understand why they don't allow you to customize. It can't be that hard to implament. All games should have fully customizable controls. Just to allow the Gamer to enjoy it more if they do have toubles.
And if someone could tell me how to get the Warrior Artifact that would be great!
What was the hint for that one?Quote:
Originally posted by Clash_Master
And if someone could tell me how to get the Warrior Artifact that would be great!
You have to go to a area of Research in the Mines and find and kill some creature to get the Artifact.
Ok, in the mines you should find a large container with an Elite in it that when you scan it it says its fortified with Berizium or whatever that B metal is. Just drop a power bomb and the elite will be let loose. Kill the Elite and you'll get the Artifact. :)Quote:
Originally posted by Clash_Master
You have to go to a area of Research in the Mines and find and kill some creature to get the Artifact.
Hmmm, ok. Any idea where in the mines that is?
It's on the same level where you first fought the Elites. I can't remember exactly where on that level, but I believe the Canister was in the middle of the room it was in. Just wander around that middle level a bit and try scanning all the Elite Canisters.
Did you get the hints? They give you the name of the room you need to go to (it's the different colored one that stands out from the rest of the text) and what you need to do.Quote:
Originally posted by Clash_Master
Hmmm, ok. Any idea where in the mines that is?
Your toes must be more nimble than mine. :pQuote:
Originally posted by Dragonmaster Dyne
sorry...dumbest quote ever. i know theres heavy sarcasm here but standard fps controls are not hard at all.
I think it's one of those games that you either like the metroid series or you do not. And from what it sounds like you never really got into the whole metroid scene and therefore I would say that I would suspect you to dislike any game in the series. I personally think that the game is tits!!!!
Blah blah blah blah blah!
blah blah blah blah!
I still say that the dodge feature sucks major ass. :mad:
That control scheme doesn't take into account the beam combos. It would be hard as hell to charge with R trigger, then hit the Z trigger to shoot a super missle or any other combo. In several boss battles you need to be able to this quickly.
When I was fighting the last boss, I was able to lock on, jump, charge, and fire a charge combo all at once without thinking about it. The genius of the control scheme, and the GC controller, is that I could hit A, B, and X comfortably at the same time.
So Metroid Prime is a "true" Metroid game, even though it's been completely turned to 3D, while Fusion is not "true" Metroid just because it's a bit more linear? Ok that makes a lot of sense....
Been playing Fusion now for about 3 hours, good game not as good as Super or Prime though. Its linear forced location gameplay totally ruins a lot of the exploration of the game. Plays more like a Mega Man game now. Prime is more Metroid then Fusion. Perspective has nothing to do with it.
Megaman is completely linear. You can still explore in Fusion, I dunno what the heck you're talking about.
What does 3D have to do with anything? If it's a good game that captures the essence, then that's what it is. And yes, Prime is more of a "true" Metroid game then Fusion.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
So Metroid Prime is a "true" Metroid game, even though it's been completely turned to 3D, while Fusion is not "true" Metroid just because it's a bit more linear? Ok that makes a lot of sense....
You can explore in Megaman games as well. Zero features extra cards, X has various energy boosters and the Hadoken, the original series had alternate paths and upgrades. His comparision made perfect sense.Quote:
Megaman is completely linear. You can still explore in Fusion, I dunno what the heck you're talking about.
What the heck exactly is your definition of "exploring?" So collecting powerups and upgrades is exploring? WTF??
And what does being a good game have to do with anything? So Galaxian 3D is exactly like Galaxian?Quote:
What does 3D have to do with anything? If it's a good game that captures the essence, then that's what it is.
You do realize that using that to attack me sounds incredibly stupid when defending Metroid.Quote:
What the heck exactly is your definition of "exploring?" So collecting powerups and upgrades is exploring? WTF??
Everything.Quote:
And what does being a good game have to do with anything?
Does it feel like a Galaxian game?Quote:
So Galaxian 3D is exactly like Galaxian?
you know, I gotta laugh with this way of thinking becuase the GC triggers have a "click" feature for pressing them in all the way. I figure if you wanted to do missle-combos, having to charge, then pulling that trigger in fully would be enough to make it work MUCH easier then the way you're supposed to hit 2 buttons on the face pad.Quote:
Originally posted by Tonic the Drunkhog
That control scheme doesn't take into account the beam combos. It would be hard as hell to charge with R trigger, then hit the Z trigger to shoot a super missle or any other combo. In several boss battles you need to be able to this quickly.
When I was fighting the last boss, I was able to lock on, jump, charge, and fire a charge combo all at once without thinking about it. The genius of the control scheme, and the GC controller, is that I could hit A, B, and X comfortably at the same time.
Granted, every game needs to allow a complete custom setup. It's always coming down to "how the developer wants it" becoming the main factor on how much fun/frustration you have when you play. Given that the trigger-combo would have been used with the dual-stick controle sceme, I could imagine it would have been a better title because there would be more to work with rather then pulling the game into having all the action being directly centered on an even plain of view.
But it's really stupid they always have to be so simple-minded like this, just look at how much better gunvalkyre could've been! :rolleyes:
I think it would've worked better if pressing it gave off rapid-fire shots and the button inside started the charge up. But either way could work.Quote:
you know, I gotta laugh with this way of thinking becuase the GC triggers have a "click" feature for pressing them in all the way. I figure if you wanted to do missle-combos, having to charge, then pulling that trigger in fully would be enough to make it work MUCH easier then the way you're supposed to hit 2 buttons on the face pad.
It might, but missle-combos are going to be a given for this. I'm also not too happy trying to look up/down when I have the stick pressed all the way, like for example, one of the shafts in the lava area had a rail I planned to use and when I was going up, I didn't see that stupid bug-thingy taking a shot at me and I could've planned ahead if my view didn't take a long-ass time to "look up" like I wanted. I'm like if I'm already pulling that stick down, "hello nintendo! I'm trying to see what's directly over me!!", %!#@ing developers...Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
I think it would've worked better if pressing it gave off rapid-fire shots and the button inside started the charge up. But either way could work.
I think Nintendo should have shipped a GBA->GC->YOUR BRAIN link cable, allowing you to control the game with mere thought. Honestly, why didn't they do that? It makes the game totally shitty.
A *bit* more linear?Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
So Metroid Prime is a "true" Metroid game, even though it's been completely turned to 3D, while Fusion is not "true" Metroid just because it's a bit more linear? Ok that makes a lot of sense....
:lol:
Can I put that in my sig?Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
And what does being a good game have to do with anything?
I'm still waiting for a good explanation as to why you think Fusion is so linear....
And the point was whether a game captures the "essence" of Metroid, so a game can still be "Metroid-like" whether it's a good or bad game.
Ok, I'm going to try to explain this simply. In Metroid Fusion the computer is constantly sealing off elevators and doors which blocks you from going back to areas you have been to previously. In fact you never really get a chance to go wherever you please untill right at the end. In every other Metroid game you can go wherever you want... whenever you want. So say you get the High Jump and remember an energy tank that you couldn't quite reach that was several areas away. In every other metroid game you could just go all the way back and get that energy tank. In Fusion you cannot. The elevators often closed. That's what makes it linear... you aren't free to explore as you please. You can only explore the area you're in, not go elsewhere. That's what makes the game much less metroid-like. Hell even Symphony of the Night did non-linear exploration better then Fusion. You were never sealed out of areas that you've already been to and would like to go back to. That is what makes Fusion less of a Metroid game. Being locked into a specific "level" is very un-Metroid like. Now I loved Fusion, but even trying to say it's truer to the Metroid formula then Prime is pure bullshit. But wait, I guess since Prime is 3d it has to suck... because 2d is ALWAYS better then 3d. :rolleyes: Shit I'm a jaded son of a bitch, but even I'm not that jaded.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
I'm still waiting for a good explanation as to why you think Fusion is so linear....
And the point was whether a game captures the "essence" of Metroid, so a game can still be "Metroid-like" whether it's a good or bad game.
That's your opinion. IMHO the change to 3D is a far greater departure from the traditional Metroid "feel" than the increase in linearlity in Fusion. For me Fusion captures 90% of what was Metroid and expands on the good parts. Prime to me is a completely different game with the Metroid name and design splashed onto it.
And about your example of finding the energy tank. In Fusion you still have areas that are inaccessible in the beginning, but become accessible later on as you acquire more items. The ONLY difference I can see is that instead of having these areas completely spread out, forcing you to do extensive backtracking like in Super Metroid, in Fusion they are conveniently placed closer so that you don't have to backtrack so much to get to those inaccessible areas.
So basically what you are saying is, Fusion is "less" Metroid because there is less backtracking. Which to me is complete hogwash.
So I'm right then. Your whole problem isn't anything to do with exploration or anything like that. It's just that you can't stand a game being 3d instead of 2d. Well I guess you should just hang on to your GBA and not play another console game again, since you can't seem to like 3d. I'm sorry but next time you can't stand something why not just come out and admit... it's 3d, I don't like 3d. That would have been alot easier then this whole 3 thread load of crap. :bang:Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
That's your opinion. IMHO the change to 3D is a far greater departure from the traditional Metroid "feel" than the increase in linearlity in Fusion. For me Fusion captures 90% of what was Metroid and expands on the good parts. Prime to me is a completely different game with the Metroid name and design splashed onto it.
But it has nothing to do with hating 3D. I'm just saying that changing a game from 2D gameplay to 3D gameplay, heck, a 3D FIRST PERSON VIEW, is such a radical departure that you can't just dismiss it like that.
IMHO the change is almost as radical as changing genres, like making a beat em up into a shooter.
If they made Mario into a first person game, would you still say that it's still Mario?
No the difference is you can't get back to them at any point in time. Only near the end when you're actually "allowed" by the computer to go back to previous areas. Hell after I got the speed boost I wanted to go back to some areas to get some items... but I couldn't because the computer wouldn't let me go back... I had to go where I wanted it to make me go. And it's not back tracking. You're not required to go back to get an Energy tank... you just can if you want. In Fusion, you can't go back if you want because the computer is making you go where it wants you to go... which is exactly what linear means. You don't have alot of freedom, you go where you have to go in the area that the computer wants you at and that's it. I really don't understand how you can't seem to see the massive differences between Fusion and the previous Metroid games... oh but wait, it's 2d so I guess it must be the same. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
And about your example of finding the energy tank. In Fusion you still have areas that are inaccessible in the beginning, but become accessible later on as you acquire more items. The ONLY difference I can see is that instead of having these areas completely spread out, forcing you to do extensive backtracking like in Super Metroid, in Fusion they are conveniently placed closer so that you don't have to backtrack so much to get to those inaccessible areas.
So basically what you are saying is, Fusion is "less" Metroid because there is less backtracking. Which to me is complete hogwash.
Alright, I didn't still that smiley. I stand corrected, but my post is still true. No one can say "if you don't like this game you know dick about gaming" or "if you don't like this game you should give up on gaming" because everyone likes different types of games, and the greatest game to one person is shit to some other people, as this thread so perfectly points out. Just had to say that. You can now go back to your "bitching about Metroid Prime."Quote:
Originally posted by Lhadatt
It was a joke, dingbat. Hence the "^_^". :p
PS Opa Opa: What exactly were you thinking when you said "what does it being a good game have to do with anything"? Just wondering, cuz that is one of the most illogical statements I've ever heard.
Well lets see. I consider Mario 64 and Mario Sunshine, mario games even though the (OH MY GOD!!!!) went and put the games in 3d. So what difference does it really make. Tomb Raider was Prince of Persia in 3d also, you can change from 2d to 3d and still retain the feel of a genre or game.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
But it has nothing to do with hating 3D. I'm just saying that changing a game from 2D gameplay to 3D gameplay, heck, a 3D FIRST PERSON VIEW, is such a radical departure that you can't just dismiss it like that.
IMHO the change is almost as radical as changing genres, like making a beat em up into a shooter.
If they made Mario into a first person game, would you still say that it's still Mario?
Cloud:
Read the previous post where I made that statement, you'll see that it was in relation to another point someone was making. People are taking that one line and taking it out of context.
bbobb:
That's not what I was asking. I asked you what if Mario was in FIRST PERSON VIEW. Would you consider it a "true" Mario game?
No you were saying changing to 3d is some huge radical departure that would make the game completely unlike the previous ones. At least that's how it reads. And no, first person would not work in a Mario game. But in a Metroid game, where the emphasis has always been about "exploration" and getting new abilities and battles involving guns, and not jumping on enemies. It does work. I also think that a third person style would have also worked on Metroid Prime, but probably not as well, since it would have been a constant battle to keep the camera in the right place.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
That's not what I was asking. I asked you what if Mario was in FIRST PERSON VIEW. Would you consider it a "true" Mario game?
I did, and it still doesn't seem to make much sense. Mech said "if it's a good game that captures the essense." As much as I disagree with Mech on other topics, I have no choice but to agree with him here. The "captures the essense" part is what really matters in that statement, not it being a good game. Because in the end, isn't capturing the essense of a series what makes a sequel most like previous games in the series, regardless of what view you're looking from? I haven't played Prime yet, nor have I played much Metroid in the past, just a little bit of the NES one and Gameboy one, so I can't comment on if Prime does indeed capture the essense, but that is what's most important when comparing different games of a series.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
Cloud:
Read the previous post where I made that statement, you'll see that it was in relation to another point someone was making. People are taking that one line and taking it out of context.
Fusion is completely linear because the computer tells me where I can go and when. Shit, it won't even let me backtrack to previous areas once I've entered the objective zone. The fact that I can decide to brave a hot area for a missile or energy tank rather than wait doesn't make it as open as previous Metroids.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
I'm still waiting for a good explanation as to why you think Fusion is so linear....
And the point was whether a game captures the "essence" of Metroid, so a game can still be "Metroid-like" whether it's a good or bad game.
You're contradicting yourself. Either Fusion has the same level of exploration as previous Metroids, or it doesn't and that makes you happy. Make up your mind.
---
I'm glad bbobb has been saying exactly what I would have, just a whole lot more gracefully. We're all quite aware that Prime is in 3D and in the first-person - given that, Prime feels exactly like Metroid should in 3D. Fusion, however, feels like 2D Metroid stuffed into Mega Man style pacing.
Your turn - explain how Prime isn't faithful to the Metroid franchise.
I think what needs to be considered is that if there were customizable controls, the game could possibly become easier or harder depending on the control setup you pick. What some of you are talking about is not as simple as changing from inverted to non-inverted. You are talking about changing the entire set-up, which would then change the entire way the game is played. The balance of the gameplay would be thrown completely off.
So then you think Prime would be more like the originals if it had a third-person camera? Shame Metroid makes sense the way it is and Mario makes sense the way it is, while your question doesn't.Quote:
That's not what I was asking. I asked you what if Mario was in FIRST PERSON VIEW. Would you consider it a "true" Mario game?
Because it uses character models instead of sprites, duh.Quote:
Your turn - explain how Prime isn't faithful to the Metroid franchise.
seriously I dont understand how any one who has played past metroid games to death in the past can not see how Prime holds closer to the metroid formula than Fusion
taking the ability to go back to past areas whenever you want and if you want would be akin to taking Super Moves out of the next Street Fighter game
Quote:
Originally posted by burgundy
your turn - explain how Prime isn't faithful to the Metroid franchise.
dont you know its in 3D and first person view that means no matter what they did it could never be anything like past metroid games
even though it does perfectly every aspect and element of a game that makes one a metroid game
its not in 2d from a side view thus its not metroid and it sucks
:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
MIGHT is a better word. If they thought about it early enough then any balance issues would have worked themselves out. Obviously telling them to change it now would take months of changing the balance, but not necessarily early in development. I think that the effort to get this scheme to work would have been more than worth it, though.Quote:
Originally posted by Kinopio
I think what needs to be considered is that if there were customizable controls, the game could possibly become easier or harder depending on the control setup you pick. What some of you are talking about is not as simple as changing from inverted to non-inverted. You are talking about changing the entire set-up, which would then change the entire way the game is played. The balance of the gameplay would be thrown completely off.
This one point is still undebatable: Every game should have at least a second control scheme, unless there is physically no other way to reconfigure due to the controller constraints. (The only game recently I can think of is Gun Valkyrie.)
About thie whole Prime/Fusion debate: I don't care which is more "True" to the series. What I care about is "Is it any good"? Fusion is, even if a bit off the road from previous Metroids. After all, besides exploration, EVERYTHING SCREAMS METROID, even perhaps improves and expands on the gameplay. Great, great game.
Why should they have to worry about balancing the game in 3 different ways because of the bitching of 5 people? Just because someone isnt used to the control in the game doesnt automatically make it a bad control setup...the main problem I have heard it inverted aiming, and that is changable. The controls work extremely well for what you need to do, and some of the mainstay FPS control styles would knock some of the elements way out of whack.Quote:
Originally posted by SonofdonCD
MIGHT is a better word. If they thought about it early enough then any balance issues would have worked themselves out. Obviously telling them to change it now would take months of changing the balance, but not necessarily early in development. I think that the effort to get this scheme to work would have been more than worth it, though.
This one point is still undebatable: Every game should have at least a second control scheme, unless there is physically no other way to reconfigure due to the controller constraints. (The only game recently I can think of is Gun Valkyrie.)
Can anyone tell me what is even wrong with the controls and how you would change them, cause I see nothing at all wrong with them. I actually like theat they forced people to lookat things in a different way.
I doubt folks are trying to say that something is "wrong" with the controls, it's just that the controls don't mean the personal preferences of that person.
If you read what I said before (Which, I'm sorry, it doesn't look like you did. Go back a few pages and read for yourself.) you'd see that I said the controls are fine, but I'd like more options. I like it when the developers give gamers different configurations of controls. That way, if I don't feel something is necessarily adequate for me, I can experiment and try to find a better way for me. This is just me brainstorming how I would have made the game more adaptable and universal to others. (others being people who won't/don't like these controls or prefer other control schemes)Quote:
Originally posted by bocmaxima
Why should they have to worry about balancing the game in 3 different ways because of the bitching of 5 people? Just because someone isnt used to the control in the game doesnt automatically make it a bad control setup...the main problem I have heard it inverted aiming, and that is changable. The controls work extremely well for what you need to do, and some of the mainstay FPS control styles would knock some of the elements way out of whack.
Can anyone tell me what is even wrong with the controls and how you would change them, cause I see nothing at all wrong with them. I actually like theat they forced people to lookat things in a different way.
I know this is futile and unchangeable at this point. But what do you expect me to talk about in a "Can I bitch about Metroid Prime?" thread, how nice the fauna looks?!? No. And plus, I don't remember reading in the TNL rules that I can't agree with the majority and post any dislike for any game the majority treats as "Jesus's Second Coming". Maybe it's in the fine print somewhere.....;)
I may have quoted your post, but if you look over my post semantically, you will find that I did not refer to you in any way not liking the controls. I was speaking generally.
It's right under the rule stating that you can't say anything negative about Sega ever. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by SonofdonCD
If I don't remember reading in the TNL rules that I can't agree with the majority and post any dislike for any game the majority treats as "Jesus's Second Coming". Maybe it's in the fine print somewhere.....;)
I had the feeling, but you didn't state is as such. My apologies if it looked like I attached you, but what I said should still ring true. More options are only a good thing, and this game (at least to some) would have benefitted.Quote:
Originally posted by bocmaxima
I may have quoted your post, but if you look over my post semantically, you will find that I did not refer to you in any way not liking the controls. I was speaking generally.
once again, another thread turns into a 2D vs 3D debate...
what a crock of sh*t!
Opa obviously hasn't reached even the Magmoor Caverns yet.
You're trying to justify your argument by pointing out that every Metroid game until now has been a 2D sidescroller, but Metroid Prime is bad because it's a first-person shooter. Unfortunately for you and your argument, we have all played past the first few hours and you haven't, and we all agree that the game captures the Metroid feel while you don't. Strange how the debate works out that way, isn't it?
Metroid has always been about exploration and not being able to reach an item or place that you can see. It's about beating a boss and getting that brand-new Ice Beam that opens all those Ice Beam sealed doors you've seen throughout the game. Metroid, Metroid 2, Super Metroid, and all of the recent Castlevanias do this. Metroid Prime also does this. It is a Metroid game, and it is completely faithful to the Metroid legacy in the sense that it utilizes the same gameplay standards that Metroid had set for itself. It just happens to be in a first-person perspective.
I'm not you (and I'm fucking glad I'm not) because the first-person perspective doesn't change the gameplay at all for me. Rolling around in the morph ball controls and feels exactly as it always has (which brought a satisfied smile to my face). Jumping from platform to platform controls and feels exactly as it always has, it just happens to allow me to jump in 3D space now. Shooting enemies and fighting Metroids and Space Pirates feels exactly the same as it always has, I can just dodge left to right now in the 3D space. Even the atmosphere and the very subtle headache and nausea that Metroid games have always given me is still there.
Everything is the same, it's just that you can't understand the idea that this new Metroid IS a third-person game, it just happens to have the camera pushed forward into Samus' helmet rather than positioning it behind her body. It controls and plays like nearly every good third-person game ever made, which makes your "but it's first-person!" bitching seem kinda strange.
Your "what if Mario was in first-person" argument holds no weight because Mario's gameplay doesn't suit itself for first-person exploration and shooting, Metroid's gameplay does. As I said, it controls like a third-person game (almost identical to Zelda 64, in fact), it just happens to place the camera inside Samus' helmet.
Anyway, you haven't played much of the game at all and have already voiced that you've never liked Metroid to begin with, so you can keep yourself pacified by ignoring this annoying thread you've created about your ridiculous complaints and going away.
Damn, you fucking slit his throat silently with that post.
Shit where did you go? Damn his ninja-like poof escape....
Yeah you're right, I'll shut up and go back to play Metroid Fusion, the one and only TRUE Metroid sequel out there. :D
The fauna looks awesome.
One can't deny that. :DQuote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
The fauna looks awesome.
Personally, I'm finding that I prefer Prime over Fusion. I don't like the fact that I'm constantly being told where to go, causing me to breeze through the game. At least in Prime I can turn the hints off.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
Yeah you're right, I'll shut up and go back to play Metroid Fusion, the one and only TRUE Metroid sequel out there. :D
I also don't like the fact that Samus has the consitution of a wet noodle. Sometimes it seems that she's dead after two or three hits, no matter how many energy tanks I have.
The spinning jump maneuver also sucks major ass. It's not much fun to blister your finger trying to make her oh-so-slowly spin up an entire screen only to be hit by something and be knocked way down to the bottom again.
Fusion is wicked easy. Why did they have to watter it down to such proportions? 4 hours and I beat it with less then half of all the Missles E-Tanks and Power Bombs, that does not seem right. Still a great game, but man its easy.
you mean the game thats least like the rest of the games in the seriesQuote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
Yeah you're right, I'll shut up and go back to play Metroid Fusion, the one and only TRUE Metroid sequel out there. :D
have you even really played through an entire metroid cause it really sounds like you havent to me anyway
I don't know why you are "laughing". If you want to use the "click" as the missle combos, then you are assuming that the trigger would not be a rapid fire since you would have to be able to charge with it. Do you wan't to manually shoot every single shot with the gamecube controller's R trigger?Quote:
Originally posted by unit003
you know, I gotta laugh with this way of thinking becuase the GC triggers have a "click" feature for pressing them in all the way. I figure if you wanted to do missle-combos, having to charge, then pulling that trigger in fully would be enough to make it work MUCH easier then the way you're supposed to hit 2 buttons on the face pad.
Yeah, if they captured the feel, why not? Jumping Flash worked out just fine.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
If they made Mario into a first person game, would you still say that it's still Mario?
You're not serious are you:confused:Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Yeah, if they captured the feel, why not? Jumping Flash worked out just fine.
Some people really liked that game... I didn't, but I know alot of people who did.Quote:
Originally posted by Green
You're not serious are you:confused:
About Jumping Flash being good, or Mario possibly working out in first person?Quote:
Originally posted by Green
You're not serious are you:confused:
I played the demo of the first JF and liked it for its time, I remember reading positive reviews (well, the one in Gamefan) of the sequal and bad things about the last one.
Mario in first person? Is there any way a first person view would be better than the current camera?
Probably not, and it wouldn't be as necessary in Mario as Metroid, due to the generally wide open areas. I'm just saying it could be done, is all.
Melf, here's a little tip about Fusion:
Do a straight-up jump, no flipping. Now press the A button. See what she does?
Next time you're space jumping and get hit, just tap A again and you're back in business. Pretty cool.
I mastered space jumping back in Metroid 2 (where it is used a LOT more than in any other Metroid game), so I had no problem whatsoever with Fusion.
What jumping Prime does have it does really well. Double jumping up to a high floating platform and turning into the next one before you land while running from a metroid is simple and fun.
Quote:
Originally posted by Mzo
Melf, here's a little tip about Fusion:
Do a straight-up jump, no flipping. Now press the A button. See what she does?
Thanks much!
I think I deserve one of these. :bang:
Read it again for the very first time.Quote:
Originally posted by omfgninjas
Opa obviously hasn't reached even the Magmoor Caverns yet.
You're trying to justify your argument by pointing out that every Metroid game until now has been a 2D sidescroller, but Metroid Prime is bad because it's a first-person shooter. Unfortunately for you and your argument, we have all played past the first few hours and you haven't, and we all agree that the game captures the Metroid feel while you don't. Strange how the debate works out that way, isn't it?
Metroid has always been about exploration and not being able to reach an item or place that you can see. It's about beating a boss and getting that brand-new Ice Beam that opens all those Ice Beam sealed doors you've seen throughout the game. Metroid, Metroid 2, Super Metroid, and all of the recent Castlevanias do this. Metroid Prime also does this. It is a Metroid game, and it is completely faithful to the Metroid legacy in the sense that it utilizes the same gameplay standards that Metroid had set for itself. It just happens to be in a first-person perspective.
I'm not you (and I'm fucking glad I'm not) because the first-person perspective doesn't change the gameplay at all for me. Rolling around in the morph ball controls and feels exactly as it always has (which brought a satisfied smile to my face). Jumping from platform to platform controls and feels exactly as it always has, it just happens to allow me to jump in 3D space now. Shooting enemies and fighting Metroids and Space Pirates feels exactly the same as it always has, I can just dodge left to right now in the 3D space. Even the atmosphere and the very subtle headache and nausea that Metroid games have always given me is still there.
Everything is the same, it's just that you can't understand the idea that this new Metroid IS a third-person game, it just happens to have the camera pushed forward into Samus' helmet rather than positioning it behind her body. It controls and plays like nearly every good third-person game ever made, which makes your "but it's first-person!" bitching seem kinda strange.
Your "what if Mario was in first-person" argument holds no weight because Mario's gameplay doesn't suit itself for first-person exploration and shooting, Metroid's gameplay does. As I said, it controls like a third-person game (almost identical to Zelda 64, in fact), it just happens to place the camera inside Samus' helmet.
Anyway, you haven't played much of the game at all and have already voiced that you've never liked Metroid to begin with, so you can keep yourself pacified by ignoring this annoying thread you've created about your ridiculous complaints and going away.