Is programming console games the same as PC games? Like do they use the same code and stuff?
Printable View
Is programming console games the same as PC games? Like do they use the same code and stuff?
Well, seen or Victrix would be able to better answer this but each console I think has it's exclusive set of libraries.. although Xbox is steeped in DirectX so I imagine it is much the same as working with a PC. The code, I am sure, is far from the same across consoles to a PC and then there's Macs which may be the same but it doens't use any Win32 API's which (from what I hear, not what I know) are 'teh gay' :/
Then there are just diffrent methods of making games, which involve diffrent processes. I don't know them for real-like but like I said before, Victrix or seen could fill you in on that.
ºTracer
I think they just use different libraries and stuff. But all the game logic/physics/gameplay stuff would be the same for all platforms.
Well, it's not as simple as just switching libraries. For example in the last game I worked on, the terrain engine had to be rewritten for PS2 because the multi-texturing technique we used on the GC/PC couldn't be replicated.
Also, in some ways programming on the PC is easier, because 1) the tools are more mature, and 2) if the game doesn't run fast enough, you can always raise the system requirements.
See, PC owns.
Told ya.
;)
ºTracer
Hah!Quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Sparkle
and 2) if the game doesn't run fast enough, you can always raise the system requirements.
Z-roe
Despite being a PC-only gamer for many years, I disagree. On consoles, you don't have to worry about outdated hardware or obscure feature sets; the developer can provide the best experience possible to all console owners, not just the wealthy.Quote:
Originally posted by TracerBullet
See, PC owns.
Told ya.
;)
ºTracer
Hah!
*agrees with Mr Sparkle*Quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Sparkle
Despite being a PC-only gamer for many years, I disagree. On consoles, you don't have to worry about outdated hardware or obscure feature sets; the developer can provide the best experience possible to all console owners, not just the wealthy.
:)
Mr. Sparkle, you program games?
Do u know why it's so damn hard to get a job as a game programmer these days? I've had several interviews and they all act as if you need to know 3D like the back of your hand....
Actually my remark would be better understood if you knew me. I play all kinds of games - I just like to make sure PC at least gets a mention around here, which it seldom does. Everything you said is everything anyone already knows is good about consoles. Thier a closed system and in terms of making games for them it can be easier since there are not variable configurations. Dur ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Mr.Sparkle
Despite being a PC-only gamer for many years, I disagree. On consoles, you don't have to worry about outdated hardware or obscure feature sets; the developer can provide the best experience possible to all console owners, not just the wealthy.
ºTracer
The best experience, or the best middle-ground? ;)Quote:
the developer can provide the best experience possible to all console owners, not just the wealthy.
Gee, funny that.Quote:
I've had several interviews and they all act as if you need to know 3D like the back of your hand....
aye - with the proliferation of mutiple consoles that changes things.
ºTracer
...Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
Mr. Sparkle, you program games?
Do u know why it's so damn hard to get a job as a game programmer these days? I've had several interviews and they all act as if you need to know 3D like the back of your hand....
Sorry, but that's going into the "stupid comments relating to games" thread.
Yeah, you NEED to know 3D, unless you want to do GBA and GP32 games -- even then, you cut your possible employers drastically. 2D = no sale on home consoles.
Yeah, but even for entry level or junior programming position, they expect you to be 3D experts. I think that's a bit too excessive. And besides, don't most game programmers just look up whatever 3D algorithm/equation they need on the web anyways? It's not like they need to memorize everything in their heads.
I mean it just seems to me the game programming biz has gotten a lot more competitive than a few years ago.
And it seems almost impossible to get into the "biz" now if you don't have any prior experience. 5-6 years ago, they used to hire game programmers straight out of college.
From what I was told, the "average" game programmer at EA has a PHD. That's just insane.
I think the idea is to find creative, excellent programmers that can do this sort of thing on the fly (as it may be). Hiring those who have that sort of dedication and skill would be more attractive and possibly prosperous from a business standpoint. But it sucks for everyone else, as usual.Quote:
Yeah, but even for entry level or junior programming position, they expect you to be 3D experts. I think that's a bit too excessive. And besides, don't most game programmers just look up whatever 3D algorithm/equation they need on the web anyways? It's not like they need to memorize everything in their heads.
The entire industry is more competitive then it was a few years ago.Quote:
I mean it just seems to me the game programming biz has gotten a lot more competitive than a few years ago.
It's the eternal hiring oxymoron: You won't get experience until you get hired, but you can't get hired until you have experience. It's like that in almost every type of job (aside from the really low-level stuff like basic retail or food service), hence why so many people find ways of getting around such things.Quote:
And it seems almost impossible to get into the "biz" now if you don't have any prior experience.
It's easy to get experience.. make a mod.
ºTracer
BTW: There's a nice 2D mod for UT you might enjoy, thank Lhadatt for bring it to light here.
That's great for a resume and can help get one noticed, but many companies want experience with another company. Of course, if you've got good work, you can try and pressure your way in while ignoring the other company aspect.Quote:
Originally posted by TracerBullet
It's easy to get experience.. make a mod.
Those Counter-Stike kids made a career for themselves.
ºTracer
And then there are those hired based off Quake and Doom mods. Exception, not the rule. ;)
Of course, but if you're good and you can make a distinctly diffrent game (CS is not like H/L) out of your MOD then you may have a job on your hands.
But those people making mods are hired to become game level designers...not programmers...
I confess that I don't know "3D like the back of my hand," and for the benefit of all parties involved, I don't handle the graphics bit. However, I do know enough about general graphics algorithms and matrix math to make an educated decision.
I applied straight out of school nearly 2 years ago, and out of 20 resumes sent out, I received two offers. Most little companies can't afford the risk of someone with no experience.Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
It's the eternal hiring oxymoron: You won't get experience until you get hired, but you can't get hired until you have experience. It's like that in almost every type of job (aside from the really low-level stuff like basic retail or food service), hence why so many people find ways of getting around such things.
So, opa-opa, I have two suggestions. One, if you're still in school, try applying to EA's internship program. It's actually quite good (I did it myself). Two, if you're looking for a real job, consider applying to bigger developers. Gamasutra usually has some good leads.
Not always so... a total conversion mod is a lot more than making new maps and skining stuff.Quote:
Originally posted by opa-opa
But those people making mods are hired to become game level designers...not programmers...
Yes! The 2D mod. That reminds me, I still have to make a map for it. Hopefully soon, or after finals.Quote:
Originally posted by TracerBullet
BTW: There's a nice 2D mod for UT you might enjoy, thank Lhadatt for bring it to light here.
Agreed. Opa, go buy yourself a copy of UT2k3 or UT1, then study up on UnrealScript. Start at http://wiki.beyondunreal.com/wiki. Knowing how to manipulate an engine like Unreal is a good step toward getting employed as a programmer, and that's exactly how the mod kiddies that made it big figured out how to make the mod. Not all of their mod's stuff was programmed into the game beforehand, ya know... again, reference the 2D mod for UT2k3. He created a totally different gametype -- yeah, he simply adjusted variables that were already in the system, but I'm pretty sure he might have also had to do some more intensive coding as well.Quote:
Not always so... a total conversion mod is a lot more than making new maps and skining stuff.
Sidenote: UnrealScript is alot like Java. If you know Java, this should be easy. If not, you'll be able to take what you know from US and apply it easily to Java.
Next step: Build your own engine!
[note: Most people don't like to do build engines. That's why people license technology created by Epic/Digital Extremes, id, Monolith, etc. By familiarizing yourself with such technologies, maybe you'll catch the attention of a company focused on getting the game out rather than rewriting the code for the wheel...]
Hmmmm this is all very interesting stuff. I'd really like to know more about programming and stuff, I think it may be something I'd want to do for a living. Either that or designing hardware. Right now I'm thinking about majoring in computer engineering, but maybe computer science would be better?
You could major in one and minor in the other. Or, if you really want your resume to shout "I WORKED MY ASS OFF IN SCHOOL AND I KNOW MY SHIT", you could double-major Computer Science/Engineering. Making all A's and B's in your courses and graduating with high honors would help your cause, as well. ;) Even if you don't score a job with a game company, there are plenty of other places in need of Computer Programmers/Engineers that will pay big bucks for your expertise.
Bottom line is... if you have the brains and ambition to do all this, you should do it, good luck to you, and I'm insanely jealous of your smart ass.
i dont program so i dont have anything to say about this
but ill tell you this getting into the art side of things is just as hard unless your on the west coast it seems
I have a friend who does 3D art, like you johnpv, he's had meshes stolen by Interplay but he's never gotten a job involving making games depsite sending all of his work off to lots of places. So Yeah, it's a hard nut to crack I'll bet.
ºTracer
I hope he's sued them for that...
Nope... it was in one of thier Star Trek games... I don't remember which one. He said he didn't put any signature/watermark (or whatever it is) in the meshes... he wasn't alone either. An entire sci-fi art board got ripped.
This thread is making my head hurt. Too...much...math...involved...in discussion..
*drops unconcious*
its hard to, unless he had sent a cd with the 3d files or renders of them to the US copyright offices before they did anything with them its really hardQuote:
Originally posted by Lhadatt
I hope he's sued them for that...
i had an ex teacher steal some models and other things of mine
i think the biggest problem is actually getting your stuff seen
now because of "trade" schools who pump out people who have never touched a pc in 8 months and now tell them theyre professional programmers or 3d artists or what ever its hard to get your stuff seen
i can tell you from the one studio i worked at i mean it was a small studio and i had only heard about it cause some one i went to school with applied there too, and they would get a ton of videos each week and 90% of them got put into a pile and never looked at again, some times on days when we werent busy wed watch a few during lunch but thats about it, i can only imagine how many videos a place like Pixar, ILM, Nintendo, Capcom, any well known studio must get, so thats the hardest part, getting your stuff seen theres just such a flood of people looking for these jobs now (again i blaime it on the trade schools pumping out people every 6 - 8 months instead of people going to a 4 year school) so if yours is 1 in a pile of a 100 where 5 of those will get watched the odds are against you even getting seen
it sucks but its what i love to do so ill keep at it till something comes along
I dont know how it is with programming at all just sharing my thoughts and experiences with the art side of things
Ive had a couple almosts and the majority of those times, it would come down to me and one other person and they would like my stuff better but the other person would have more experience so theyd go with them
which is easily one of the most frustrating things in the world
hearing yeah we like your work alot better, but this guy has 3 years experience so well hire him
its like UGH evil catch 22 UGH
Well, get with some guys who are working on some mods, design maps, characters and animation procedures. It'd be the easier thing to do. Capcom isn't going to come without them knowing good an well who Johnpv is. American studios are everywhere, not just the west coast. Metroid was made deep in the heart of Texas this time (as wierd as that sounds) as is iD software and ISA (dur.. Ion Storm Austin) among others. If you're in to computer hardare (THAT's HARD SHIT THERE) then a town like Houston or Austin would be a good one to be in I'd imagine :/
PV:
It's about the same on the programming side of things, I'd imagine. IT in general is like that right now. Too many people, not enough jobs. People will realize this at about the time IT recovers from whatever it is that has spooked people into not hiring.
A good option, apart from getting a masters degree, is to form a small company, release some low-key games and use that as your launchpad into something bigger. At least you'll be able to claim experience in working with a company situation.
Lhaddat: Have you seen those commercials from NIT that say "due to a severe shortage of IT Professionals demand for men and women to fill these jobs has never been higher..."?
I almost blew Dr. Pepper out of my nose when I first heard that.
I think I have.
Man.. I'm graduating from UHD in May with a CIS bachelor's in business. I'm not sure I'll be able to find anything decent in IT for a year or two after I get out, if not longer...
farkin certfication farms... ugh.
Aye, my brother-in-law graduated MIS from the Bauer School of Business at UH and he's not IT here at Phonoscope (yeah - he helped me land my job :/ )
ºTracer
Yeah, well.. I'm used to getting screwed by the academic system, so it makes sense that they would be in cahoots with the business world to continue the trend... ;)
this i knowQuote:
Originally posted by TracerBullet
Well, get with some guys who are working on some mods, design maps, characters and animation procedures. It'd be the easier thing to do. Capcom isn't going to come without them knowing good an well who Johnpv is. American studios are everywhere, not just the west coast. Metroid was made deep in the heart of Texas this time (as wierd as that sounds) as is iD software and ISA (dur.. Ion Storm Austin) among others. If you're in to computer hardare (THAT's HARD SHIT THERE) then a town like Houston or Austin would be a good one to be in I'd imagine :/
why im heading up a small team right now that were going to try and make our own mod on a game, part of the problem is is getting everyone together and all the tools together
right now it looks like were going to head in either Half Life or Unreal Tournament 2K3 it all rests on the main programmer though, as it is weither or not he can program an exporter/importer program for Half life (we want to use Half Life since the SDK is free for it and can do a full game using its SDK and engine instead) but UT2003 comes with a maya exporter/importer so it looks like well have to go with that
And yeah theres a shit load of Developers in Texas right now
why i have no freaking clue, wish i did though *LOL*
I dont know ive been hearing somethings that because of something bloomberg i think has done theres rumors that alot more studios of all sorts are going to be moving to NYC (which i really hope)
Makes sense to me, Cali is such an expensive place to live and do buisness and since most 3d work is done for advertising and NYC is the advertising center of the world youd think theyd want to be in NYC
but it is hard
why im trying to get this game stuff going with some people, i figure if we can get something going we can get our names known some how
its just hard when everyone is working 40 hours a week or more and to get them to put into this for free you know
Hardware engineering is very different from software. In a software engineering college curriculum(sp?) you do learn some of the hardware concepts like CPU instruction sets and signals but not on a level where you can build your own electronics. In a hardware only track you might learn about VLSI and microcontroller interfacing but little to nothing about Object Oriented software techniques and efficiently structuring large scale software projects like games. But then again MIT does combine the two into one track and I assume that it's difficult as hell. To me software allows you to be more creative. In short you can have more of an impact, knowing less.
You could always go back to school to learn hardware, but I think that building software is more important. For example we have 2.8Ghz pentiums for $300 a chip but hardly any sofware which justifies the purchase of such a machine. Where is my next Photoshop which fuses 2D and 3D into one very easy to use program with an elegant interface. Seems like the only apps which push the boundaries these days are games, and that's just not enough. Having grown sick of this crap I am engineering my own natural media paint application which will push the boundaries of 2D and 3D not to mention be fun to use and do things that not many have seen before. Along with that I plan to have a very simple yet powerful user interface. Of course it will work on both Windows and Mac.
To answer your question the tools on the PC are more refined just like Mr.Sparkle said, and I would prefer working with them though I don't like M$ new direction with C# and .NET framework, it kills cross platform code which is why I only use C++, and COM instead of .NET. I tried games and didn't find it to be my cup of tea. Although, I do apply physics, scripting, and techniques for real-time 3D rendering in my own apps just like in games. My favorite area of research right now are 2D and 3D Bezier curves and their applications in 3D Free form deformations(organic animation), vector art, control, and subdivision. Many game developers are starting to use curves for having resolution independent 3D models and better flowing animation, and ATI even has a hardware curve renderer built in to Radeons. Ultimately, your career choice really depends on what your end goal is. If you like to be closer to the end product and have a direct impact on people then try software. If you like being the man waay behind the scenes and generally find math like Bessel functions, and electronics more interesting and would not mind getting to the bottom of each. It's either the C++ compiler or a CAD Engineering program for PCB design, either way you'll be sitting in a fairly dark corner of the universe with little immediate gratification from others regarding your work. BTW I only talk more about the computer engineering because I feel that it is being under-represented here, not because I like it more.
In software I even have my own preferences. For example I do not like working with command line tools like GCC, even if it is free. GCC is a UNIX based compiler tool set which is the most widely used one for compiling PS2 programs. There is also a Code Warrior compiler which I believe will get more popular among American and European developers because it offers a GUI and faster workflow.
A surefire way to test if you like hardware or software is to take the required Calculus course for each. If you can put up with the more complex engineering math then that's your ticket, if not try the simpler and more practical software Calculus. Remember, if you don't like your chances in a course early on you can easily transfer to another one. Also, hardware engineers get paid more than software ones, and game engineering salaries are too low by any engineer's standards.
seen
Wow, that was very very informative. I guess I'll have to think about what I'm more interested in and what I'd rather do. It always used to be hardware, but I'm finding that programming looks pretty interesting too. Thanks for the help guys. :)
It's because Texas has a disporotionate amount of idiots in it so the smart ones are REALLY smart. Balances it out a bit :/ Right Lhadatt? :)
Or maybe land in Texas is cheap, and there are established giants there (Origin, ISA and id are the very first to spring to mind) The RPG and FPS originated here. Bet for graphic design, well, maybe it's the (no offence) yuppie factor :/ Cali seems like a good place for it.
About your situation though: Non-pay projects by-and-large don't work unless you've got a solid plan and you initial endevors or not more than you and your group can chew. Me an some friends wanted to make a Cartoon show pilot and market it to cable networks. All I could procure was a hasty script and it was not nearly enough. USA Networks was as close as we got. Basically - it was more than we could handle (or would handle I suppose).
Seen, as always is full of advice from experince. You don't post enough.
ºTracer
I would love you forever. If you ever need a tester... ;)Quote:
Having grown sick of this crap I am engineering my own natural media paint application which will push the boundaries of 2D and 3D not to mention be fun to use and do things that not many have seen before. Along with that I plan to have a very simple yet powerful user interface.
Yup. Houston government is a prime example of that -- the smart ones got out years ago.Quote:
Originally posted by TracerBullet
It's because Texas has a disporotionate amount of idiots in it so the smart ones are REALLY smart. Balances it out a bit :/ Right Lhadatt? :)
Austin's got a good tech sector. Sure, games helped, but tech companies getting chased out of Silicon Valley helped alot too. ^_^Quote:
Or maybe land in Texas is cheap, and there are established giants there (Origin, ISA and id are the very first to spring to mind) The RPG and FPS originated here. Bet for graphic design, well, maybe it's the (no offence) yuppie factor :/ Cali seems like a good place for it.
I just want to point out that getting a programming job in the industry is still very hard, even after you have experience.
Programming openings these days are met with piles of resumes since so many programmers, in all fields, are out of work. That is magnified in the gaming industry since gaming is currently "cool" and so many people have developed a sudden interest in the field. Combine that with the volatile nature of the industry, and there are always a lot of qualified candidates looking for a job.
When a studio goes out of business, it's employees spread out and populate other companies, or start their own studio. This builds a buddy network, where people flock from one place to another as their current opportunity dries up. While that is great for those in the network, it makes getting in extremely difficult. Game openings get flooded with hordes of resumes. If your resume has the same amount of experience as another guy, but someone can recommend that guy from previous work; you lose everytime. The phrase "It's a small world" has never been more appropriate than in the gaming industry.
Right now there is nothing tougher than being mid-level. Not enough experience to compete for senior level positions, yet too much (and too expensive) to be considered for the lower level positions. It's hard to make yourself stick out in this situation, as you don't fit either criterea. It's the old catch-22 of the experience game. All of the passion and love of the industry in the world can't match up against the money game. This is why someone with programming credits in multiple shipped titles can be left out in the cold.
^Sux.
One thing which I remember Stephen Anderson, the CTO of EA saying me is that he thought that the video game business in North Ametrica was still kinda small.
And it's more popular than ever. Gettin in isn't as easy as it once was. Maybe 3 or 4 years ago you could get away with not having done any animation programming, or having a solid 3D algorithm knowledge in your resume. Today you're expected to have shipped a commercial title already and also be prepared to read and understand the latest Siggraph papers so that you can use it in your code. As well as know various assemblers and optimizations like MMX. Being able to write multi-platform code is a huge plus to everyone I ever dealt with.
I think that at some point in the near future regular utility apps will become more graphical and begin to feature some video game elements. At this point the two genres will somewhat converge and we should see some more variety in the kind of people that are involved as well as the opening of more diverse positions.
I always thought that art should be fun to create, so that's why I'm building my software with many ideas found in video games and like state machines, interactive 3D and real time 2D effects like bump mapping, and particles.
Thanks for the compliment Tracer.
MechDeus: I am currently in the final stages of developing algorithms and general design. I have already coded some parts of it, mostly from my other projects. One thing is for sure, it will not look like Photoshop or Painter. I have many features which I want to implement, and their inclusion depends their overall role in the structure of the system as well as the art process which I would like to convey. I could keep talking about this thing for hours, there's just that many features in it. If I need any testers, you'll be the first one I will notify.
seen
Heh...talking about jobs and employment in general is depressing these days....
Programming is, to me, akin to working between the 4th and 5th circles of Hell. Its an evil, evil profession, and game programming isn't much better. Next Generation used to run a lot of articles about game development, and they constantly pointed to the horrible horrible hours that programmers have to work especially near the deadline. 100 hour weeks are common, and you end up eating horrible California pizza for every meal (been here since September and I cant stomach the stuff yet).
And yes, if you wanna program 3D you gotta know 3D like the back of your hand. And 3D math sucks. Trust me on that.
Level design and all that is more of an art than a science and it takes a ton of practice just to learn how to use the cumbersome tools , and then more practice to be able to churn out decent levels. Im convinced that to pump out good levels you need some sort of knack for it. Since more and more companies now adays are using licensed graphics/physics engines, then more emphasis will be shifted to game/level design. But this, by itself, is pretty hard too.
I started college studying Computer Science but I ditched it because, well, programming is hell. It is a seriously sucky job and for what these companies pay you can get a better job elsewhere. I was all set to go to college, get a degree, move to California, and work on cutting edge titles, but I ditched it when I realized how shitty programming is and how the game industry is generally somewhat rotten these days.
Ultimately, though, getting a job in the game industry is really no more difficult than getting a job in any industry. You still need to make connections, get crappy internship jobs during the summer, and study and work hard and prove you know your stuff. It takes dedication and a bit of luck, just like any other job. It may seem more difficult, but thats only because you narrow yourself down - instead of *any* field, you're specifically looking for one in *games*.
Diffusion, what exactly is so bad about programming that made you ditch it in college?
Its far too limited, its full of so much hassle. You know what they say, right? Programming is 10% programming and 90% bug-fixing. For so much of the time, youre not programming, youre not working on elegant solutions to problems, youre working around limitations in the language, the compiler, the platform... limitations exist because of somebody's foolish assumptions a decade ago.Quote:
Originally posted by Cloud
Diffusion, what exactly is so bad about programming that made you ditch it in college?
Ever look at a Windows program's code in C++? Even a basic one, one with a single window and a single pixel, is full of so many different API calls and so many different things, so much fucking grammer like calling handles and handles to pointers and all that nonsense that its just not worth it. Its not interesting, its not fun, and its not creating.
Visual Basic is not really programming if you ask me, but its fun because it takes away much of that tedium. It lets you focus more on the design. Even in a basic, DirectX program, there's so much crap going on that I dont know if anybody, including Strousop (the creator of C++) really knows everything that is going on.
Then, maybe after they teach you C++, you move on to Assembly language, in which you get to learn the wonders of moving around chunks of data into memory registers and shit like that. Then, after you've gotten good and comfortable with writing C++ (Im pretty good at C++, actually), you get to spend 3 hours writing an assembly language program that you could whip up in 15 minutes in C++.
I can only imagine what working as a professional programmer can be like: spending maybe two hours each week designing, creating, solving problems (all of this is quite fun). The remainder of your time is bug-fixing, fixing other people's mistakes, making workarounds for the 3D engine or physics engine you bought from company Y.
I like programming because its almost like growing a garden; the more work you put into it, the more you get out of it, and you can see a program mature as you put more time into it. Its really quite neat. Unfortunately, there's so much tedium, so much nonsense, so much slop, so much crap, so many limitations that you have to work through that its just not worth it. If youre not John Carmack or Tim Sweeney, you're almost certainly gonna have to spend a lot of your time dealing with the tedium, nonsense, slop, crap, and limitations.
Once I realized that, I got out of there fast. I spend time working on little projects in C++ or Perl or whatever, and theyre fun, but no way I could spend a career doing it.
Yeah that does sound kinda lame, but the only way to really know if you would like something or not is to experience it, so that's just what I'm gonna have to do. Thanks for the input though.