1. When was the last time you could equip an item that gives you life when you get hit by a certain elemental attack?
2. When was the last time you were allowed to change weapons in the middle of combat?
3. When was the last time you had any real difficulty with an RPG?
4. When was the last time you fought a battle with regular enemies that can really mess you up?
Legaia 2 meets some of those criteria. Go play that.
I played that and completely "owned" it(AKA I even beat the 100 battle thingy). It really had no stragtegy except for mixing combos so that you don't run out of AP(I think that is what is was).
FFX did some of those also
That seems to be a primary standard of the FF series, and only occasionally used by other RPGs. And FFs still have that, so...Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
1. When was the last time you could equip an item that gives you life when you get hit by a certain elemental attack?
I actually can't think of any RPGs right now that let you. Maybe Koudelka.Quote:
2. When was the last time you were allowed to change weapons in the middle of combat?
Breath of Fire IV and Valkryie Profile.Quote:
3. When was the last time you had any real difficulty with an RPG?
Breath of Fire IV and Valkryie Profile. And Breath of Fire III. And Vagrant Story if you want to count that as an RPG (which would also classify it for the previous question as well).Quote:
4. When was the last time you fought a battle with regular enemies that can really mess you up?
But what does sheer difficulty have to do strategies being removed RPGs? Aside from the above listed RPGs, the last time I had trouble completing one was FF1, usually get beaten around due to not levelling up enough. The first two things you listed are minor nuances that have strategy as deep-ranging as, "I'm heading into Fire World. Perhaps I should equip something to help against fire. Boy, that took a lot of thought."
Oh, and if you're looking for pure challenge, perhaps you should check out Lunar 2 on PS. I've never played it but a friend of mine swears it's the hardest RPG he's ever played.
RPGs (generally) have never involved much, if any, strategy, beyond what MechDeus mentioned - "maybe I should hit the fire elemental with my water sword!" and that sort of stuff. Challenge in RPGs has almost always, in actuality, just been monotony.
A game that requires you to spend 10 hours doing pointless tasks before you can get past a certain point is supposedly harder than one that only requires you to waste 5 hours, so on and so forth. That's all that separates older RPGs from the gameplay of newer ones.
Well some RPG did have a fair bit of strategy. Some RPG's aloowed some enemies to have the elemental change ability which meant that you had to find out which element works best on him(eg that FFX water blob boss). I think there has yet to be a boss or enemy since CT that rapes your characters badly if you decide to attack a certain enemy in the group before you kill of one of the others. The "trade off" attack from FF6 completely left the planet. I am pleased that the "bad breath" attack in FF's remain however.
As far as difficulty goes in relation to strategy. A lot of old school RPG's required you to kill off an enemy with a certain attack while the others attack another enemy to make sure that you didn't take too much damage and have to use heal spells. Todays RPG's heal spells are far too powerful and magic recovering items are too plentiful too. Thus the survival strategies are lost.
I think RPGs have more strategy now then they did in the 8/16 bit days. The battle mechanics in those games were so simple, and the "difficulty" just meant more leveling up, not more thought involved.
"The battle mechanics in those games were so simple, and the "difficulty" just meant more leveling up, not more thought involved."
With the exception of Chrono Trigger and FF6.
Because those two games are representative of all RPGs back then, huh? An exception does not make a rule.Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
With the exception of Chrono Trigger and FF6.
Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
1. When was the last time you could equip an item that gives you life when you get hit by a certain elemental attack?
2. When was the last time you were allowed to change weapons in the middle of combat?
3. When was the last time you had any real difficulty with an RPG?
4. When was the last time you fought a battle with regular enemies that can really mess you up?
I think with the exception of question #2 the answer to all those questions is Persona and Persona 2.
"Because those two games are representative of all RPGs back then, huh? An exception does not make a rule."
Only if you consider the RPG's that were widely available and not include the ones released in Japan. Sadly some of the best RPG's in the 16-bit era are still awaiting translation.
Damian, it seems like you are making the assumption that everyone here has played every import RPG ever.
Which is why I have made it my mission in life to introduce you people to the RPG's recently translated by obsessive RPG fans. :D
Oh dear lord...
Like?Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
Only if you consider the RPG's that were widely available and not include the ones released in Japan. Sadly some of the best RPG's in the 16-bit era are still awaiting translation.
Like?Quote:
Which is why I have made it my mission in life to introduce you people to the RPG's recently translated by obsessive RPG fans. :D
Hmmm...I suppose we're not "in the know" enough for you?Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
Which is why I have made it my mission in life to introduce you people to the RPG's recently translated by obsessive RPG fans. :D
Sorry, sir. It won't happen again. :rolleyes:
i was about to mention that. those games are so unfortunately underrated and ignored even by this crowd. two of the best on the platform.Quote:
Originally posted by Pepsiman
I think with the exception of question #2 the answer to all those questions is Persona and Persona 2.
Star Ocean 2.Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
1. When was the last time you could equip an item that gives you life when you get hit by a certain elemental attack?
2. When was the last time you were allowed to change weapons in the middle of combat?
3. When was the last time you had any real difficulty with an RPG?
4. When was the last time you fought a battle with regular enemies that can really mess you up?
Damn skippy!Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer
Star Ocean 2.
Good to see Persona get a mention. Fantastic game. I need to pick up the second one though.
"Like?"
Dark Half
Dual Orb 2
Monstania
Sailor Moon RPG(Surprisingly good for an RPG with a license)
Treasure Hunter G
Seiken Densetsu 3
Majin Tensei
Arkana
Robotrek
Cyber Knight
Seiken Densetsu 3? If you are indeed going to include action-RPGs in there, I can pretty much say even without playing them that Vagrant Story owns the entire lot.
And didn't Robotrek get localized? Enix game on the SNES, right? The one were you built robots?
If you don't take time to learn, Suikoden 3's battles can be the hardest things ever, especially the strategic battles where you cannot cure your units, yet must fight tons of battles, sometimes up to 10 in a row without dying. Yeah, that's hard.
Oh and some characters can die permanently.
I like that a lot. More games need to implement more severe consequences like permanent death.Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew
Oh and some characters can die permanently.
Go Konami! And damn anyone who says they don't like it! :D
"And didn't Robotrek get localized? Enix game on the SNES, right? The one were you built robots?"
I included the games that many people don't know about.
I don't know why, but I just couldn't enjoy Vagrant Story. This is probably one of the great games which I will never understand why I don't enjoy.
Damn right. It means you have to practice and force yourself to skill up, level up and equipe up before engaging in battles. Most of the 108 stars you won't use, from what I've seen, but you get a better ending (or so I'm told, haven't beaten it yet) for having them all alive. But the ones you do want to use (Watari for me, ninjas are awesome) you don't want to see them perish or something like that.
It's a great, great game. I hope it's just in a supply loop or something like that, but I think Konami pulled the plug on it prematurely.
I am currently playing through Xenogears. The 'gameplay' and the constant random battles are about as much fun as slitting my wrists. The plot is damn good though so I play on, wish I could just press a play button and let the game play itself. Sadly I feel the same way about most RPGs, Sega and Camelot make the best around, at least those are fun to play.
Yeah but what about Shinobi and Zelda?Quote:
Originally posted by Sidez
I am currently playing through Xenogears. The 'gameplay' and the constant random battles are about as much fun as slitting my wrists. The plot is damn good though so I play on, wish I could just press a play button and let the game play itself. Sadly I feel the same way about most RPGs, Sega and Camelot make the best around, at least those are fun to play.
What about them?!
What about them? I'm lost.Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew
Yeah but what about Shinobi and Zelda?
Damian your starting to sound like an infomercial :sweat:
Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
I included the games that many people don't know about.
All Square games are common knowledge on this board by default.Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
Seiken Densetsu 3
If your actual intent is to have us "informed" about "obscure" RPGs that were fanhacked, say so in the first place and please try to spare us from spurious questionairres.
dog$, are you questioning how hardCORE Damian is? It should be blatantly obvious that he is the all-knowing master of RPGs.
I don't know, I was just makin' conversation is all... :DQuote:
Originally posted by Tracer
What about them? I'm lost.
"All Square games are common knowledge on this board by default."
But many people aren't into the translation scene. BTW the Sailor Moon RPG was also from Square, so was Treasure Hunter G. I missed another Square RPG from that list called Rudra No Hiyu or something like hat.
"If your actual intent is to have us "informed" about "obscure" RPGs that were fanhacked, say so in the first place and please try to spare us from spurious questionairres."
That wasn't my intent at all. These were legit questions. I merely said that because I feel that many RPG's have been missed because the Japanese think Americans won't go for intelligent games. If I find out a translation is complete, I post it here. Though I only came to this board about a month ago so you wouldn't have seen me do much of that. :)
Sadly, this is the majority. Stupid people are the majority. They will hang on the words of a few people and make their uninformed decisions on them. They don't like to think, they like to play and not have to learn.Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
"All Square games are common knowledge on this board by default."
But many people aren't into the translation scene. BTW the Sailor Moon RPG was also from Square, so was Treasure Hunter G. I missed another Square RPG from that list called Rudra No Hiyu or something like hat.
"If your actual intent is to have us "informed" about "obscure" RPGs that were fanhacked, say so in the first place and please try to spare us from spurious questionairres."
That wasn't my intent at all. These were legit questions. I merely said that because I feel that many RPG's have been missed because the Japanese think Americans won't go for intelligent games. If I find out a translation is complete, I post it here. Though I only came to this board about a month ago so you wouldn't have seen me do much of that. :)
Simplified controls and plots are for them. There are a few exceptions, but all in all this is the convention and why many publisher don't take the risk of releasing these titles over here.
Penny-Arcade.com is a great example. Two smart and educated gamers starting petitions and asking people to e-mail sites, etc. What do they do? Thousands of fans do this, informing and molding their decisions on someone elses word. (Cardboard Tube Samarai in Soul Caliber 2? petition may be neat but it's also ridiculous as well). Yet for some reason they flock to it thinking their unique and different.
I must say, however, if you're going to lemminglike follow someone in gaming, Penny-Arcade isn't the worst choice you could make.
You just have to surround yourself with people of common interest, hence these forums.
Zelda is a very good game, if you liked OOT then you'll love it. It's the game I always demo to people. However i'm lazy and can never be bothered to play it, probably because OOT sent me to sleep.Quote:
Originally posted by Andrew
I don't know, I was just makin' conversation is all... :D
No one mentioned it yet so........
Skies of Arcadia.
Excellent game, and challenging too.
Pull your head from your Square ass and recognize Sega's masterpiece!
(directed at no one in particular)
Surely it's an excellent game, but it doesn't answer any of the problems posed. I recon that's why it hasn't been mentioned.Quote:
Originally posted by JefmcC
No one mentioned it yet so........
Skies of Arcadia.
Excellent game, and challenging too.
Pull your head from your Square ass and recognize Sega's masterpiece!
(directed at no one in particular)
Skies of Arcadia answers Questions 1-4. I am pretty sure there was armor with elemental attacks/atributes. The battle system is built around changing weapons, and weapon colors. Many of the boss fights were difficult, especially Ramirez at the end! Some of the enemies had nasty death, stone, and poison spells that seriously f'ed up some of your party members.
I loved Skies's battle system, characters, music, gameplay, graphics, setting, etc. I loved every thing about it and can not wait for the GC version.
Xenogears
Final Fantasy X/T, Star Ocean 2Quote:
1. When was the last time you could equip an item that gives you life when you get hit by a certain elemental attack?
Final Fantasy X/T, Star Ocean 2Quote:
2. When was the last time you were allowed to change weapons in the middle of combat?
Final Fantasy X/T, Star Ocean 2Quote:
3. When was the last time you had any real difficulty with an RPG?
Final Fantasy X/T, Star Ocean 2Quote:
4. When was the last time you fought a battle with regular enemies that can really mess you up?
yeah, that about does it.
Tons of rpgs/usually Final Fantasy/who cares, that's such a random, niggling point?Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
1. When was the last time you could equip an item that gives you life when you get hit by a certain elemental attack?
Some rpgs/Dragon Warrior VII/who cares, most rpgs base their strategy on something better than making you waste a turn equipping a different sword.Quote:
2. When was the last time you were allowed to change weapons in the middle of combat?
Dragon Warrior VII/play Suikoden III, it'll make a man out of you.Quote:
3. When was the last time you had any real difficulty with an RPG?
Suikoden III/almost every rpg I've ever played at one point or another in the game/Isn't this basically the same question you just asked?Quote:
4. When was the last time you fought a battle with regular enemies that can really mess you up?
Yes, Xenogears' battles are endless (the Nortune sewers...kill me!) and pretty dumb for the most part (the "every other attack in a Gear is worthless and does no damage" thing was only interesting on some bosses), but the last few hours of the plot are freaking brilliant, and were worth slogging through the not-very-interesting first 52 I had to go through to get there. I hope you've been taking notes.Quote:
Originally posted by Sidez I am currently playing through Xenogears. The 'gameplay' and the constant random battles are about as much fun as slitting my wrists. The plot is damn good though so I play on, wish I could just press a play button and let the game play itself.
yeah its hard...but if you want a different challenge try the original on Sega CD. hmmmmm use my points to get new spells....or save......hmmmmmm. FUCK YOU WORKING DESIGNS!!!!!!Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
Oh, and if you're looking for pure challenge, perhaps you should check out Lunar 2 on PS. I've never played it but a friend of mine swears it's the hardest RPG he's ever played.
Actually IMO, the only game to have a regular enemy this gen that can really mess you up is that oh so popular octopus/plant beast with a massive mouth that gives bad breath. If you didn't have the right equipment on, you either reseted or waited till you kill yourself with your own teammates.
Star Ocean 2 was one that had REALLY hard enemies IF you played it on hard mode. And easily the hardest boss ever if you took his limiter off.
Damian, since when did Square make the Sailor Moon RPG? I'm like 99% sure that game has Bandai written all over it.
Quote:
Yes, Xenogears' battles are endless (the Nortune sewers...kill me!)
I stopped playing Xenogears for about 5 months because of those sewers.
Well I remember it was Square from the site that translated it. I never questioned it because it has the exact same graphics "design" as FF6.
Square did NOT make it...
Bishojo Senshi Sailor Moon: Another Story Bandai 9/22/1995 JPQuote:
Originally posted by Damian79
Well I remember it was Square from the site that translated it. I never questioned it because it has the exact same graphics "design" as FF6.
Short squat sprites? I have a feeling that's the only graphic design they share, unless Sailor Moon went steampunk at some point and I missed it...Quote:
Originally posted by Damian79
I never questioned it because it has the exact same graphics "design" as FF6.
Not even with the short squat sprites-Quote:
Originally posted by MechDeus
Short squat sprites? I have a feeling that's the only graphic design they share, unless Sailor Moon went steampunk at some point and I missed it...
http://www.finalfantasyx.nl/ff64.jpg
VS
http://www.sl1p.changethechannel.net/images/smrpg.gif
They're practically twice as tall.
W0w th3y Llo0k SO ALik3!!11 :)
Hahaha, Damian this thread makes you look really pathetic...
the point of this thread was what
and wheres Tsubaki or what ever the fuck his name is
hes the other "obscure japanese rpgs that really suck make my dick hard" guy you two would love each other
The combat specifically.
Quote:
Hahaha, Damian this thread makes you look really pathetic...
I take that insult personally. I am much more pathetic than this. And to prove this, I will never admit I am wrong on the whole Sailor Moon RPG thing.
Saga frontier 2 meets the criteria of questions 1-4, and has much more. Infact, it has 2 separate types of battles.
I don't think strategies in RPG's are being removed, I think general difficulty in every genre is. Almost every game has either infinite lives or infinite continues, and you can play most of them competently straight away.
Too much exploration?Quote:
Originally posted by Sidez
Zelda is a very good game, if you liked OOT then you'll love it. It's the game I always demo to people. However i'm lazy and can never be bothered to play it, probably because OOT sent me to sleep.
YES! The greatest game from the greatest RPG series of all time!Quote:
Originally posted by ferricide
i was about to mention that. those games are so unfortunately underrated and ignored even by this crowd. two of the best on the platform.
Everyone FF game does thatQuote:
1. When was the last time you could equip an item that gives you life when you get hit by a certain elemental attack?
Persona, Star Ocean, Grandia, Valkrie Profile.Quote:
3. When was the last time you had any real difficulty with an RPG?
Yesterday.Quote:
4. When was the last time you fought a battle with regular enemies that can really mess you up?
New school RPG's are superior to older ones in this aspect. Star Ocean, Arc the Lad, Tales, Valkrie Profile, and Persona have great battle systems, and play a hundred times better than their 16 bit bretheren.Quote:
As far as difficulty goes in relation to strategy. A lot of old school RPG's required you to kill off an enemy with a certain attack while the others attack another enemy to make sure that you didn't take too much damage and have to use heal spells. Todays RPG's heal spells are far too powerful and magic recovering items are too plentiful too. Thus the survival strategies are lost.
The best 16 bit traditional RPG is Shin Megami Tensei. It's similar to Ultima in it's nonlineariy, and the plot borrows alot from Hinduism and Jungian thought. The battle system makes Chrono Triggers system look like a Charlie Chaplin movie..... and it's 32 bit spin off's are superior in every way.
:wtf: FF6 was a level up fest...Quote:
With the exception of Chrono Trigger and FF6.
Indeed. The second one is the best RPG ever released stateside.Quote:
Good to see Persona get a mention. Fantastic game. I need to pick up the second one though.
Likes Damian + 1Quote:
Majin Tensei
Damian hate +1Quote:
Sailor Moon RPG(Surprisingly good for an RPG with a license)
I fell asleep playing this one.Quote:
Dual Orb 2
It's action RPG for gods sake.....and theres a remake of the original is coming..Quote:
Seiken Densetsu 3
It's a rip off of squares games. And a mediocre one of that.Quote:
No one mentioned it yet so........
Skies of Arcadia.
Excellent game, and challenging too.
Pull your head from your Square ass and recognize Sega's masterpiece!
(directed at no one in particular)
The almighty Damian can't be wrong, he said so himself.
*drives a whole through some of the logic in this thread*
Hmm...I don't really feel like replying at length to this discussion.
*drives out*
You better not have used the truck I was using to drive through CybrGamr's logic in the Zelda "deal" thread. That thing has two payments left.
Because we all know that Grandia, Growlanser and Panzer Dragoon Saga (ie my favorite RPGs of all time) are the symbol of obscure import eliteness. :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally posted by Shin Johnpv
and wheres Tsubaki or what ever the fuck his name is
hes the other "obscure japanese rpgs that really suck make my dick hard" guy you two would love each other
If you have nothing to add to this thread, shut up.
On the subject of field RPGs (sRPGs and aRPGs are different entirely), I think the original poster is looking at a different set of "strategies" than what I like. I think the strategies you describe (equipping ice weapon to defeat fire boss) isn't a whole lot of strategy at all. In fact, it's become such a staple of RPGs, it's just intuitive. Last time I checked, many RPGs still incorporated this element albeit not with as drastic of results.
But today's RPGs incorporate a different kind (IMO a better type) of strategy where positioning and timing matters. Instead of unrealistic turns where you warp in front of an enemy and warp back, you have to take into account where your character is in respect to the enemy. You have to take into account how long it will take them to walk there, how long it will take to cast that spell, how long it will take to swing your sword... all of this comes into play. It's far more engaging than just switching a weapon through a menu. I'm not sure why you think games today are less strategic. The evolved games of the genre are far more so than their predecessors.
For the record, I own the real Bishoujo Senshi Sailormoon Another Story cart and there's no Square involvement.
So that would mean that Damian was WRONG!??? Thank God.
RPGs is teh boring.
Maybe if I climb onto your face and rubbed around on it a little bit it wouldn't be so boring?Quote:
Originally posted by Clash_Master
RPGs is teh boring.
Would it be you or the Octo that represents you? I would like RPGs more if they were a different type of game.Quote:
Originally posted by Kidnemo
Maybe if I climb onto your face and rubbed around on it a little bit it wouldn't be so boring?
I always thought that RPGs weren't too strategic anyways. for me RPGs were always more exploration and small logic puzzles than strategy. When I think strategy I think of actual strategy games, Like FF Tactics and Ogre Battle
This whole paragraph screams Grandia 2 Battle System. That game was amazing, and not solely due to the battle system, as every one who reviewed the game would have had you believe. The story was bare bones, but the characters were the meat and potatoes! They were acted well and brought the world of Grandia to life.Quote:
Originally posted by Tsubaki
But today's RPGs incorporate a different kind (IMO a better type) of strategy where positioning and timing matters. Instead of unrealistic turns where you warp in front of an enemy and warp back, you have to take into account where your character is in respect to the enemy. You have to take into account how long it will take them to walk there, how long it will take to cast that spell, how long it will take to swing your sword... all of this comes into play. It's far more engaging than just switching a weapon through a menu. I'm not sure why you think games today are less strategic. The evolved games of the genre are far more so than their predecessors.
[/my 2 cents]
I shit all over this thread.
Much better. :DQuote:
Originally posted by 88mph
WHAT KIND OF GRAB-ASSTIC THREAD IS THIS?!
that game barely required you to exercise any of the strategy. like, sometimes during some boss battles. you can totally sleep through that game since it's so easy. and i did. =) well, most of it, eventyally i just fell to sleep permanently. =PQuote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
This whole paragraph screams Grandia 2 Battle System. That game was amazing, and not solely due to the battle system, as every one who reviewed the game would have had you believe. The story was bare bones, but the characters were the meat and potatoes! They were acted well and brought the world of Grandia to life.
[/my 2 cents]
i dunno why i'm backlashing against grandia 2 so hard lately, at this late date.. i can't help it!
Bah. Forget backlashing against Grandia II. It's so cliched, and like 5 people in the world like it anyway. Bagging on Skies of Arcadia, on the other hand, is a world class sport capable of providing endless hours of enjoyment. Certainly more than the actual game did, anyway. Lambda Burst!Quote:
Originally posted by ferricide
i dunno why i'm backlashing against grandia 2 so hard lately, at this late date.. i can't help it!
Grandia 2 is the most disappointing RPG I've ever played. At least it came with a free soundtrack CD, that's the only redeeming feature to it that I can think of.
oh, imo it has lots and lots of redeeming features. somehow they just didn't end up adding up to a game i actually like.
I didn't see what was so great about the battle system... oh look! i can stun enemies when they're trying to do a spell or special move! WHOOP-DEE-FUCKIN-INNOVATIVE
... I actually liked the game, but as a whole it came off rather bland
Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
Bah. Forget backlashing against Grandia II. It's so cliched, and like 5 people in the world like it anyway. Bagging on Skies of Arcadia, on the other hand, is a world class sport capable of providing endless hours of enjoyment. Certainly more than the actual game did, anyway. Lambda Burst!
I like Grandia II, but moderately dislike SoA. Lambda Burst...bleh. I somehow managed to play to the final dungeon, and my save has been sitting for over a year now. I don't think I'll ever get back to it.
Still.. Many games meet your requirements man. (Damian) Persona 2 is one of the finest examples I can think of, and as xS said, it's one of the best on the PSX.
That's okay, the ending sucks. Basically you fight Sephiroth, then Cecil and Rosa get married. I think the names were slightly different though.Quote:
Originally posted by taloony
I like Grandia II, but moderately dislike SoA. Lambda Burst...bleh. I somehow managed to play to the final dungeon, and my save has been sitting for over a year now. I don't think I'll ever get back to it.