New Evolutions in Fighters?

I posted some comments about what should go into the next Street Fighter game over on the GA forums, but I think some of these could be applied to just about any fighter.

Something I want to see is the ability to switch up moves like Ken can in 3rd Strike where you'd hold down RH or Fwd and get a variation on his kicks. I can just imagine the mindf*cks you could pull off if you could do something like Ryu's hcf+K, hold K for fake and then followup. Street Fighter needs more of those kind of moves. Not really something totally new, but the SF series would be a lot more entertaining with lots of feints IMO. Autoguards would be cool too. KoF uses them, I don't see why Street Fighter couldn't implement them. Maybe take some aspects from the Vs. series and put in super armor for some moves. Really, I can't see some special moves getting stuffed by a random jab or something. Capcom could probably design it so that the attacker would take damage, but their attack wouldn't be snuffed either.

Another thing I'd really like to see is Perfect Inputs. It's sort of like the concept behind Just Frames but not really. Just Frames are usually variations on existing moves, but I'd like to see someone use Perfect Inputs on every non-basic attack.

ie. right now in in VF, Akira's Knee is pretty hard for most people. I think if you had something with Perfect Inputs you'd be able to do Akira's Knee easier (let's say you have to release G within 7 frames instead of 8, which is pretty generous) but for those who do it within the optimal range (non-perfect would be 7+ frames, perfect would be 1 - 2 frames) would benefit with better damage and a higher float on the knee for more combo possibilities. They could apply that to 2D fighters where you would have your link combos that would do more damage based on how precise you are.

You could also have attacks dealing damage based on momentum, so if you were to do a backdash and then an attack that moved you forward, it would do less damage than if you were to do a dash and then the same attack. Then you can switch it for moves that move you backward, etc.

I don't know how that last feature would work in 2D fighters though, since you can't go into attacks too smoothly after dashes, but I think both ideas would work really well because they reward players for dedicated practice but don't punish them for being lazy as hell

Yeah.. that's it. Anyone else have any other ideas? I'd like to hear them.

I personally would like more emphasis on timing and less on button combos. I'm sure most disagree, but I don't like to encourage button mashing.

i agree with reno on some things

though i dont know about some of the Vs series stuff making it into the regular series theyre both very different styles i dont think it would fit in t he vein where SFIII has taken the series

1 thing id LOVE to see become standard is online play for the console ports

for 2D fighters id also like to see Hihg Res become the standard also

were long past the limitations of having to be in low res with 2D its time to up the ante

I'd like to hear responses on the shoryuken forums. Has this been posted over there?

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Originally posted by Reno
Not really something totally new, but the SF series would be a lot more entertaining with lots of feints IMO.

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Feints: cool.

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Autoguards would be cool too.

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Not sure what kind of autoguard you mean. Elaborate please?[quote]Maybe take some aspects from the Vs. series and put in super armor for some moves.

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Capcom could probably design it so that the attacker would take damage, but their attack wouldn't be snuffed either.

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That's what super armor already does. :p However, to give everyone super armor for certain moves would probably make things quite ridiculous. Would this be based on a priority scale like RPS (i.e. Shoryuken trumps Hurricane Kick, Hurricane Kick trumps Fireball, Fireball trumps Shoryuken), or would people just be ripping through each other constantly with the focus on who can land more hits to break away super armor first?

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They could apply that to 2D fighters where you would have your link combos that would do more damage based on how precise you are.

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/me gives thumbs up

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I don't know how that last feature would work in 2D fighters though, since you can't go into attacks too smoothly after dashes, but I think both ideas would work really well because they reward players for dedicated practice but don't punish them for being lazy as hell

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It can be done if they want it in there (dashing forward into attacks works just fine, right?), and dashing backwards moves would be interesting.

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Originally posted by Andrew
I personally would like more emphasis on timing and less on button combos. I'm sure most disagree, but I don't like to encourage button mashing.

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You should try something besides Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat. Most every 2D fighter produced by Capcom and SNK in the last god-only-knows how many years has had a focus on combos that rely on timed, linked moves, not pure button presses.

/me completely agrees with Reno.

Especially on the feints. That'd be excellent.

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Not sure what kind of autoguard you mean. Elaborate please?

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I think he means the temporary invincibility given during certain moves, like Kyo's qcf+C?

Momentum based attacks definitely get the thumbs up from me. It would add an element of reality while keeping the exaggeratedness in there.

I don't really want anything new added to the genre.

Truthfully, what I'd like most is if Capcom came out with an internet-capable Street Fighter Alpha 2 with high res graphics.

Maybe put something in where the parameters (how much damage CCs do, whatever else) of the game could be updated over the internet. Then, as time passed, the game could be tinkered with - sort of like perpetual play-testing.

Other than that, I don't need anything else...stuff like feints, whatever, sounds nice, but it's all just gilding the lily, not necessary. I haven't become tired of SFA2 over the past 7 years, and I don't really see myself getting tired of it any time soon.

Master: nope. I don't visit SRK forums at all. They scare me. :(

Tain: yeah, autoguards like in KoF. Something like Ken's f+HK in Alpha 3 comes to mind, because he actually rotates and it looks like he should be able to autoguard moves.

I found this while looking for a review of MvC2 on the Xbox. I was going to make a separate Thread on it.

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originally uploaded by some clueless dick:

Progress is an important factor for the world. Every year we move forward in almost all spheres of life and improve our lot. We purchase a new console because it has better capabilities than the last one, ie- the Xbox can crush walnuts far more effectively than the PS2. We all buy ever more sophisticated mobile phones so that we can destroy the art of conversation by text message. And of course every home is now hooked up to the Internet, something which has enabled the populace to find entertaining pictures without ever having to reach up embarrassingly to the top shelf in a packed newsagents. Now do you see how important progress is?

This is why Marvel Versus Capcom 2 is something of a mystery to me. Here we have a 2D beat em up that has even less fresh ideas than your average British sitcom writer- in other words it's all been seen and done before.
Upon loading up you get some seriously rubbish music that projects your ears into the realm of the less inspiring mid nineties cartridge based ditties. Soft, nondescript, frantic, techno rock. Then your eyes are drawn in even further down this time warp by the character selection screen. Here we see Ryu, Guile, Zangief and Chun Li of Streetfighter fame and of course we get several characters from the Marvel comics. This heartened me a little- the thought of playing as Spiderman or the Hulk got me going. For a minute or two.....

In some sort of attempt at innovation the developers allow you to pick three characters for your playable team. This is akin to having three different forks at your dinner table- in other words you can only use one at a time anyway.
This is simply the world of Streetfighter 2, no more and no less. Did we ditch our Snes and Megadrive systems for this?
Picture the scene- two large colourful sprites on the screen, moving about on top of various different animated backgrounds. Picture the gameplay- push diagonally up to jump and mash various buttons to punch, kick and leg sweep in dazzlingly quick fashion. With a sweep of the analogue stick and a press of a button a range weapon is fired from nowhere with the sound of the characters trade mark cry. Walking backwards blocks the opponents moves, standing close enables a throw and various combinations of buttons creates a super move where the screen goes into shock and your character goes berserk with power. Sounds good doesn't it? Well it's not....

The "Why couldn't they have done this?" Section
Now I don't want to come across as some sort of modernist gaming snob because I like some aspects of retro gaming and I like updates of old games or ancient gaming ideas. There is absolutely nothing wrong with a flat 2D fighter but with the power of this generation of consoles I simply cannot understand why this sort of game should look and play exactly like something that was available in the home ten years ago. Now most people know the score with this sort of game but the best way for me to really bother continuing to review Marvel Versus Capcom 2 is to point out why I think it's pointless and why it could have been made to be more interesting.

1/ The graphics: Why do the fighters still look pixellated and slightly blocky? Why is the animation still about as impressive as the old 70's cartoon Rhoobarb and a million times less funny? Jerky movements and far too swift transitions from standing to punch/kick are not acceptable in my book. Characters should now be beautifully slick with vast amounts of animation frames in a Disney type manner and with smooth lines and shading. What is the point of having rich and nicely animated backgrounds when your characters look graphically out of place on top of them?

2/ The sound: Do the effects need to be understated and uninteresting? Does the music have to be utterly uninspiring drivel? Set the synthesiser to stun.....

3/ The gameplay and other technical details: Why not have some objects to smash into or use against opponents? Why not have different levels to fight along- you know, up and down, into buildings, down steps? Is it REALLY good enough to just fight along a limited flat strip. Come on, sophisticated 3D brawlers do this sort of stuff nowadays! Sprite based fighters should free up tons of memory with which to create superb interactive environments and special effects.
Why not some facial and costume damage? What about having the whole team of three versus three on the screen at the same time in a mass brawl and you can switch from one fighter to the other actually on screen instead of introducing them from nowhere and playing them one at a time. Couldn't the fights last longer, ebb and flow and be more sophisticated and interesting?

Now obviously any hardened 2D fighting fan lost in the past can disregard all of these observations and criticisms- this is a game clearly aimed at the rose tinted hardcore and if you loved the halcyon days of the 'flat fighters' then you will love this. But there really is no point for the rest of us. The game is poor value unless you have friends around who are fighting nuts and who DON'T want to be impressed with gaming advances and superb 3D graphics and no amount of little options to spend points on new costumes or character art (what on earth is the point of that?) can change that as far as I am concerned. There really is very little else to tell here. There are plenty of recognisable characters to play and unlock and the Xbox pad isn't as bad as you would think for the speedy reflex gameplay and that's about the most I can really say for the game. The only point that needs to be said is- "How long are these sort of unevolved games going to be produced?" I don't mind seeing those old favourite characters again and again but can't we have some changes in gaming application for once? Keep this sort of stuff for the Game Boy Advance.

If you want an arcade quality, flawlessly presented, glitch free 2D fighting game then buy Marvel Versus Capcom 2. The only other thing you would need is a time machine to take you back a decade so that you could impress everyone with it.
Alternatively you could just buy it and show everyone now so that they could MARVEL at how CRAPCOM the game is TOO.

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clearly, fucking clueless.









My opinions now:

Obviously, the graphics and the sound could be much better. By simply updating the sprites Capcom would make my day, And in all honestly, I could make a better fighting game soundtrack than the recent efforts from Capcom.


"perfect inputs" is a fucking awesome idea. Seriously, someone should get that Idea to capcom.

I think they should work on a grappling system thats as deep as their combo systems. I'm not sure how you could do it, but it could possibly improve the games greatly. As it currently stands, its pretty much a single throw/slam that does massive damage, which is kind of stupid, as being thrown doesn't hurt as much as being kicked in the balls or face. Perhaps they could do less damage but be chainable, thus creating the opportunity for a complex grappling system.

Of course, there would have to be ways to break the chain. It can't be too easy to do, otherwise grapplers would be useless in certain circles. the best idea I can think of is that you have to press a certain button at a certain time, though I'm sure a better way would be possible though.

Also, Super moves shouldn't be beefier versions of special moves, they should be completely unique.

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Originally posted by Reno
Something I want to see is the ability to switch up moves like Ken can in 3rd Strike where you'd hold down RH or Fwd and get a variation on his kicks.

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Just as an aside, this was present in Super Turbo (Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo) back in like 1995 :) A game, I might add, that still enjoys popularity today.

I like the idea of feints and fakes, although Capcom has yet to really do a good job with them (with a few exceptions) Most of the time, they're tossed in like some kind of gimmick, like Ken's "roll" with the start button in Alpha 2.

I'm finding myself more ambivalent about autoguard attacks as well, although again, they haven't been well implemented so far, and very very few characters have them. Super armor though, needs to stay in the VS games. It fits the frenetic pace of the game. I think autoguard works more on the SF side of the world.

I'm pretty happy with link attacks though, and I'd rather have them be an all or nothing thing than awarding more damage for more precise timing.

Personally, I wish Capcom would have continued on with the Darkstalkers series. The characters were unique and the game had a lot of style.

I also think they ought to take some cues from Sammy, because GGXX is a fantastic game. It's very fast paced, but has a lot of the elements of what make SF games so good. Plus it added a lot of fighting elements of its own, with things like the Roman Cancel/False Roman Cancel system.

Seriously, Arc System Works and SNK offered enough innovations in the 10-year heyday of fighting games to make this topic extremely difficult to respond to.

For now, I like to see a game featuring a Dead or Alive-like reversal system (with a far less generous input opportunity, of course) that doesn't involve hitting your opponent. Like some of Lei-Fang or Kasumi's reversals that only push the opponent away or set them up in a dangerously vulnerable position. Only a parry or special, offensive block can defend against any post-reversal attack.

Also, why haven't I seen two characters fighting at once, controlled by one player? When I saw early screens of Street Fighter 3 in EGM, I thought Yun and Yang were going to be controlled at the same time instead of being independent characters (or sprite swaps as was the case in SF3:NG). Let's say a Street Fighter control scheme was used. The top three buttons could be used to control the attacks of the first character, and the bottom row the second. The fighting duo could use alternate stance-based maneuvers to setup tag-based attacks. You could hold down certain buttons to switch your lead character, sort of like Gen's change in stance in Street Fighter Alpha. And of course the character would have to have a Custom Combo super attack that involves both characters tag-teaming their opponent.

Eh, that's just something I'd like to see in a future fighting game release.

I still dream of the day when there's a fighter with characters so radically different from each other and so complex that it would be almost a science to master just one.
The kind of fighter I'm thinking of is most similar to VF4 or Soul Caliber, where there are so many moves that nearly anything can be countered.
And yes, I say countered. Most games don't give enough punishment to characters who block. I find it somewhat rediculous that someone could block full combos and only take a scratch. That's why I like block meters. Yup. If there is to be blocking, there should be more emphasis on countering, though. Not DoA-esque "you attack... oh! COUNTER BUTTON! HA!" Kinda thing, though. I just don't know how it would work out. Seems like a kind of feature that would be very difficult to actually make in a game...

Cliff's Notes: I no like chump-blocking. Bring on strategical countering.

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ie. right now in in VF, Akira's Knee is pretty hard for most people. I think if you had something with Perfect Inputs you'd be able to do Akira's Knee easier (let's say you have to release G within 7 frames instead of 8, which is pretty generous) but for those who do it within the optimal range (non-perfect would be 7+ frames, perfect would be 1 - 2 frames) would benefit with better damage and a higher float on the knee for more combo possibilities.

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Sega AM2 already implemented this in Evo. (For shame, Llanfair will have your head :cool: ) If you don't do the knee correctly, Akira will do another knee that does not float.

Arjue: I kinda wish you hadn't posted that. I really want to rip it apart piece by piece, but am dampened by knowing that airhead valley girl won't be here to read it.

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Originally posted by Taito
For now, I like to see a game featuring a Dead or Alive-like reversal system (with a far less generous input opportunity, of course) that doesn't involve hitting your opponent. Like some of Lei-Fang or Kasumi's reversals that only push the opponent away or set them up in a dangerously vulnerable position. Only a parry or special, offensive block can defend against any post-reversal attack.

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Parrying and Guard Impact already do this, and I think VF4 has some counters like that as well.

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Also, why haven't I seen two characters fighting at once, controlled by one player?

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Going off a description like that, I'd have to say it sounds really unwieldy and possibly abusable as all hell. Neat idea nevertheless.

Hmm... this convo seems mostly focused on 2D fighting, but I might write up the 3D Fighter That Will Never Be idea I have.

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Originally posted by Stone


Truthfully, what I'd like most is if Capcom came out with an internet-capable Street Fighter Alpha 2 with high res graphics.

Other than that, I don't need anything else...stuff like feints, whatever, sounds nice, but it's all just gilding the lily, not necessary. I haven't become tired of SFA2 over the past 7 years, and I don't really see myself getting tired of it any time soon.

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SWEET JESUS YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
/me has an orgasim at the thought of high res online SFA2

and i agree ive been playing SFA2 almost daily for years now it is IMHO the best fighter ever

its complex and simple enough at the same time to be insanely enjoyable

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Originally posted by Shin Johnpv
SWEET JESUS YES!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
* Shin Johnpv has an orgasim at the thought of high res online SFA2

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you just had an orgasm and you still typed that out. That's nasty.:wtf:

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Originally posted by Lordmrw
you just had an orgasm and you still typed that out. That's nasty.:wtf:

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He's already honed his ability to come (or "cum" if you prefer) with one hand and type with his other perfectly. Or maybe that's why his spelling is always screwy... :eek:

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Originally posted by MechDeus
Feints: cool. Not sure what kind of autoguard you mean. Elaborate please?That's what super armor already does. :p However, to give everyone super armor for certain moves would probably make things quite ridiculous. Would this be based on a priority scale like RPS (i.e. Shoryuken trumps Hurricane Kick, Hurricane Kick trumps Fireball, Fireball trumps Shoryuken), or would people just be ripping through each other constantly with the focus on who can land more hits to break away super armor first?/me gives thumbs up It can be done if they want it in there (dashing forward into attacks works just fine, right?), and dashing backwards moves would be interesting.
You should try something besides Killer Instinct and Mortal Kombat. Most every 2D fighter produced by Capcom and SNK in the last god-only-knows how many years has had a focus on combos that rely on timed, linked moves, not pure button presses.

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Nope. They rely purely on button combos. This is where the skill lies. How fast can you pull off the combination before your opponent zaps you good or whatever have you. Timing would have a reserval or block button with more function that to lessen blows.

Unless you have super vision or something the animations are far too fast for any human to react with any sort of precise timing.

It's fun but its something I feel is encouraged too much. I feel if you have reversals and counters which are time based and move combos as well, it would really heat things up and simplify needless button combos.

You may disagree but this is something I would like in a fighting game.

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Originally posted by Andrew
Nope. They rely purely on button combos. This is where the skill lies. How fast can you pull off the combination before your opponent zaps you good or whatever have you.

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Huh? You mean you want a game that doesn't have any combos?

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Timing would have a reserval or block button with more function that to lessen blows.

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You mean like what Darkstalkers (reversals), SFA series (reversals), SFIII (parrying), SC (guard impact), and VF4 (reversals) all have?

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Unless you have super vision or something the animations are far too fast for any human to react with any sort of precise timing.

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No, you just have to learn the system and animations. Hence why parrying entire combos, supers, and combo-linked supers in SFIII is so common amongst people who play regularly. The animations in the above listed games and many more are perfect for the respective defensive schemes, the only problem comes in when there aren't enough animation frames. This only comes into play in older fighters, which generally didn't have advanced defensive techniques in the first place.

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It's fun but its something I feel is encouraged too much. I feel if you have reversals and counters which are time based and move combos as well, it would really heat things up and simplify needless button combos.

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*points above* Like I said earlier, we've had that for years. Try learning a recent fighting game (aside from Tekken, which doesn't have very much defensive game).

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Originally posted by Masaka
Just as an aside, this was present in Super Turbo (Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo) back in like 1995 :) A game, I might add, that still enjoys popularity today.

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Bro, Reno wasn't old enough to remember that game, let alone to reach the controls. We asked to see his ID at E3 2 years ago. :p

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Originally posted by MechDeus
Huh? You mean you want a game that doesn't have any combos?You mean like what Darkstalkers (reversals), SFA series (reversals), SFIII (parrying), SC (guard impact), and VF4 (reversals) all have?No, you just have to learn the system and animations. Hence why parrying entire combos, supers, and combo-linked supers in SFIII is so common amongst people who play regularly. The animations in the above listed games and many more are perfect for the respective defensive schemes, the only problem comes in when there aren't enough animation frames. This only comes into play in older fighters, which generally didn't have advanced defensive techniques in the first place.*points above* Like I said earlier, we've had that for years. Try learning a recent fighting game (aside from Tekken, which doesn't have very much defensive game).

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Up. I hate to inform you but down, down-right and right plus A or whatever is a combination.

All the games you mentioned have no integral structure for a reversal system. You can reserve just as well as a button masher than someone who tries to learn the title.

Parrying? You mean jumping.... o... k. That's pretty indepth when you can jump over a finishing maneuver. Almost anti-climatic. I play DOA 3, and the recent Street Fighter Alphas. And I've laid my hands on GGX2 and Capcom vs. SNK: EO and all of them fall victim to button combos and less on timing.

Timing includes a clear cut reversal system. there are no reversal buttons on any of the games you mentioned. The easiest way to reserve is to simply jump away, which isn't enthralling gameplay by any means.

Of course this is all my opinion of the fighting genre.

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Originally posted by Andrew
Up. I hate to inform you but down, down-right and right plus A or whatever is a combination.

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What are you talking about?

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All the games you mentioned have no integral structure for a reversal system. You can reserve just as well as a button masher than someone who tries to learn the title.

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Thank you for proving your lack of knowledge.

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Parrying? You mean jumping.... o... k.

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What the hell does parrying and jumping have to do with each other? Do you even know what parrying is, or what the word means?

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That's pretty indepth when you can jump over a finishing maneuver. Almost anti-climatic. I play DOA 3, and the recent Street Fighter Alphas. And I've laid my hands on GGX2 and Capcom vs. SNK: EO and all of them fall victim to button combos and less on timing.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHA! No, stop it, you're killing me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

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Timing includes a clear cut reversal system. there are no reversal buttons on any of the games you mentioned. The easiest way to reserve is to simply jump away, which isn't enthralling gameplay by any means.

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What the hell are you talking about?! Alpha: Alpha counters, in which you can cancel a combo while getting hit by one at the expense of a a Super bar. SFIII: Parrying, which negates a hit and leaves the opponent open for an attack. Soul Calibur: Guard Impact, which redirects a hit in multiple directions and leaves the opponent open to attack. VF4: Reversals that shove an attack back, redirect the move, or are a reversal attack.

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Of course this is all my opinion of the fighting genre.

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That's because you know nothing about fighting games.

I'm all for evolution in the gameplay of fighting games, but what about seeing some evolution in other aspects? I'd like to see more fighting games make use of an edit mode of some sort. VF 4 had a fantastic one, as did one of the PSX KoF games (I think it was KoF: Evolution, ironically enough.) These modes might not seem like much, but they let the player add a more personal touch to the game, and to their favorite character(s.)

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Originally posted by Masaka
Just as an aside, this was present in Super Turbo (Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo) back in like 1995 :) A game, I might add, that still enjoys popularity today.

I like the idea of feints and fakes, although Capcom has yet to really do a good job with them (with a few exceptions) Most of the time, they're tossed in like some kind of gimmick, like Ken's "roll" with the start button in Alpha 2.

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I was just using the Ken in 3rd Strike thing as an example! I do realize that he first goes those in Super Turbo. I think we need more of those though. Hardly any characters in the SF world have them, although 3D fighters use them extensively, which I like. :D

Taito: some fighting games have dual characters that you can use. There are the Ice Climbers in SSBM, Vivian-Roxy in Slap Happy Rhythm Busters, and I suppose any character combination in Alpha 3's Dramatic Battle. IMO Ice Climbers and Vivian-Roxy work really well, but you only control them as a duo, so you can't command each character to do an individual action. :|

I want a fighter that people won't be afraid to try, drawn in and awed after the first play, and commits a player at just the right amount to improve at. As fighting games are, only the hardest players are conisdered 'good' and anyone who doesn't have the benefit of good competiion falls behind. I want a fighter that lets players feel like they're getting better, and actually are getting better. Not this 'memorize it like a science' - we have enough of those. I want a fighter that is 'n00b friendly' yet allows them to have fun AND get better, as opposed to either being a button masher forever, or becoming so wrapped up in the art of the game that they are too anal about everything related to it.

oh yeah, what's so bad about combos? As far as I can tell, devs have made 'damage scaling' so important in every new fighter, that a 10-hit button mash with a super at the end has nothing on a well-placed (or thought-out) plan of attack, even if it's just a run of 3 or 4 hits.

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I want a fighter that people won't be afraid to try, drawn in and awed after the first play, and commits a player at just the right amount to improve at. As fighting games are, only the hardest players are conisdered 'good' and anyone who doesn't have the benefit of good competiion falls behind..

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*snip*

I want you to get better at fighting games first :p

all of these are pretty solid aspirations. though above all, I'd love to see some really unique character designs - especially if there's another SF game. I mean, how long has it been since Ryu and co. have walked around in the SAME darn outfits. SNK has developed multiple character designs for its cast (namely King of Fighters), and they're always featured in new outfits, hairstyles, etc. These characters certainly have demonstrated a much more significant evolution that the Capcom ensemble could only be considered as exceptional!

what a cop-out.

SNK reuses the same hardware for a decade, reworks a few sprites, adds a new attack animation, and reworks Athena's outfit and somehow they're on the up-and-up in evolution? I'll only be impressed in another KoF if they get off the MVS archetecture and use something they can really work. Question is - could they really work it?

My opinion is everything SNK is so reverred only because - of course - if you've been on the same standard for the past decade and milking the same fighter for about as long (KoF), you better damn well know how to work it.

You may complain about Capcom, but all those valid gripes cut the same way with SNK. Right now I only think Arc is doing anything new - only because they are working new technology, and are also reletively new to the fighting game biz while being able to push more new ideas than Capcom or SNK combined. But that's me ^_^

Way over my head.

*goes back to Urban Champion*

I'm sure this is considered blasphemous but I enjoyed fighting games much more before they became so memorization based. I would like to see more fighting games like Smash Bros. The game seems shallow on the surface because of the lack of moves/combo memorization but it still has a lot of skill to it.

Hero: Heh. For once, Hero is able to constructively make a point and not be somewhat indecisive. Bravo. Of course SNK has used the same hardware for much longer, but apparently it's worked for them. Yes they've used the same hardware - and for appox. a decade - so was Capcom (using CPS2...heh, and CPS3 got even less time) I would've loved to see Garou developed on more advanced hardware but it wasn't. Most fans didn't seem to care. My statement is simply an tangent from the general discussion here mainly discussing the advancements we'd long to see in fighting games. You should already know that I am not nearly as zealous about Capcom's games as I used to be; though my point is that from an aesthetic analysis - I'd just like to see some more variety. You're shooting down the entire matter simply because of your poo-poo attitude with SNK? Shut up.

MechDeus: What am I talking about about the button combinations? A shoryuken. To do this maneuver you must execute a button combination. Something I personally do not enjoy.

hahaha? I believe I posed a question as to what parrying was by giving my interpretation of parrying. After doing some research it means deflecting. Still meaning nothing to my arguement of button combinations. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you wasted your time. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHA! I don't believe you can reflect peoples attacks in street fight or DOA 3, now, can you? (not that it has anything to do with my original statement, but I'll patronize you since holding back is called blocking and jumping out of the way is dodging)

Ok, so you can counter a combo? I'm not denying counters are in the game my confused friend. I'm saying they've got no correlation with the moves (the 'counters') and button mashers can pull off just as many as a regular combatant due to the ridiculous amount of combos needed in a fight to accomplish the outrageous attacks everyone loves.

Point still remains through all of your babble: I don't like combos, therefor I want a fighter relying on timing and a heavy reversal/ link system. How can you dispute what I want?

You can't. You'll try, but you'll fail.

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Originally posted by NeoZeedeater
I'm sure this is considered blasphemous but I enjoyed fighting games much more before they became so memorization based. I would like to see more fighting games like Smash Bros. The game seems shallow on the surface because of the lack of moves/combo memorization but it still has a lot of skill to it.

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That's along the lines of what I was saying.

Although it doesn't have a hefty reversal system but the way you can catch weapons and such is a start. In SSB for N64 throwing was one of the skills few people employed and one of the easiest ways to get your opponents down a few lives.

I also love the unique feeling of the game with the objective to blow your opponent off the platform. I know Toshenden and stuff had it but once you were off you basically were fucked, you know? I like the idea of having some skill, some timing and a little bit of luck to keep you trekkin' through the game.

Easy to get into, fun to play, good graphics and good concept.

Andrew, you smoking weed or something man? All that laughter, and you're the only one finding it funny.

I was mocking him.

I'll give you the benefit of the doubt on that one.

BTW matt good rocks. Nice avatar. It's a hard hitting image in our world right now.

Glad you like it. Matt's an awesome artist, and I might be interviewing him after Avalanche is released.

lol. I heard he can be real cool or a big dick. Unlike Raine of OLP who is pretty much always a dick. I've been a fan of Matt Good Band and now Matt Good. Sad they broke up but I love Matt Goods design style.

Matt seems to be a pretty cool dude. The part with him being a prick was an invention of his, which he later lampooned by making t-shirts saying "I hear Matt Good's a real asshole." His semi-daily posts on the www.nationofcool.com message boards tend to show that he's a pretty cool dude.

lol. Nice. Maybe we should use aim or something? lol, my aim is Erroneus Input

The Future is X-Rated video had that slogan in it I think. With him leaving to hawaii without his band, purposely.

Yeah. Half the stuff in my sig is from that video. His newest vid is awesome. It's a shame it resembles a John Mayer vid instead of a "normal" Matt Good one.

Andrew - first thing, not trying to be rude or anything, but are you foreign/a non-native English speaker? It's kind of hard to understand what you're saying in your posts.

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Originally posted by Andrew
hahaha? I believe I posed a question as to what parrying was by giving my interpretation of parrying. After doing some research it means deflecting. Still meaning nothing to my arguement of button combinations. HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA you wasted your time. HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAAHA! I don't believe you can reflect peoples attacks in street fight or DOA 3, now, can you? (not that it has anything to do with my original statement, but I'll patronize you since holding back is called blocking and jumping out of the way is dodging)

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This is a good example - what the fuck are you talking about? "my arguement of button combinations" "reflect peoples attacts in street fight or DOA 3"...and when did MechDeus mention anything about blocking/dodging?

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Ok, so you can counter a combo? I'm not denying counters are in the game my confused friend. I'm saying they've got no correlation with the moves (the 'counters') and button mashers can pull off just as many as a regular combatant due to the ridiculous amount of combos needed in a fight to accomplish the outrageous attacks everyone loves.

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For most people, the word "combo" doesn't refer to moves that require multiple button presses to execute.

"D, D/F, F+P" isn't a "combo", it's a special move/what-have-you.

A combo is j.FP, c.FP, Fierce Dragon Punch.

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Point still remains through all of your babble: I don't like combos, therefor I want a fighter relying on timing and a heavy reversal/ link system. How can you dispute what I want?

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What you're saying is that you don't like games that require any sort of memorization or manual dexterity (stringing together multiple button presses). You want something, it seems, more like a rhythm game (or like Fire ProWrestling) where timing is the only thing that is tested during the gameplay.

Now, that's fine, if that's what you want (go play FPW).

However, MechDeus wasn't trying to argue about whether you really want a timing-only-based fighting game.

He was commenting on the stupidity of other things you've written in this thread, like:

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more emphasis on timing and less on button combos (moves that require more than a single button press to execute)...button combos encourage button mashing.

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I think most people would agree that if anything adding complexity to the execution of moves (D, D/F, F + P) makes button mashing HARDER, not easier, like you seem to think.

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They rely purely on button combos. This is where the skill lies. How fast can you pull off the combination before your opponent zaps you good or whatever have you...

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You're stupid. You're saying that fighting games revolve entirely around who can execute moves (with complex button-sequences) the fastest, and that's simply not true. Someone who makes that statement just doesn't have an in-depth enough understanding of fighting games.

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Unless you have super vision or something the animations are far too fast for any human to react with any sort of precise timing.

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No. Maybe you think the ability to play these games properly is beyond you, but, trust me, it doesn't take "super vision or something" to play most fighters skillfully.


You're welcome to your desire for an entirely-timing-based game. However, you don't really know enough about actual fighting games to make a real contribution to a thread like this.

Also, your writing is really, really fucking terrible - nonsensical, almost, and that'll get in your way if you're planning on taking part in discussions like this.

SNK does rehash sprites, but I think they always offer substantial differences over previous games, though whether these are improvements or not is debatable.

All I'd really like to see is Arc Systems to rework GG to include the reversal system from Last Blade series. I think it would add a lot to GGX3 or whatever the next one will be called.

I don't think it's possible to remove memorization entirely. You need to know what the characters can do and how they do them. They can make this less complicated and easier to access, but it would also end up making it less fun for more experienced players. Perhaps it would be possible to expand on the EO in CVS2 to create different levels of complexity within a game, so that when the player has one level down they can move onto the next.

Things like Dragon Punches or crouching jabs always worked well enough as reversals for me...that's what they were, weren't they?

You stuff someone's move, do some damage, get an opportunity to change or start using pressure tactics, isn't that a reversal?

A crouching jab is an attack. A reversal is actually using somebodies body weight or momentum against them in an attack. Instead of, BUTTON MASHING. You crouch and hit the button fast as to get a clear shot.

As for your post above. I'll get to it tomorrow as it's getting late stone.

Pressure tactics? Example please. I'm not saying I'm right about reversals. I could very well be totally wrong. But my main point, my 'thesis', which was originally stated as the second post of this thread, was that I don't like emphasis on button combinations but more on timing and reversals. Therefor I want the genre to evolve past this convention I do not like. ("I" being the key word)

Button combinations being first on the list.

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Originally posted by Ammadeau
SNK does rehash sprites, but I think they always offer substantial differences over previous games, though whether these are improvements or not is debatable.

All I'd really like to see is Arc Systems to rework GG to include the reversal system from Last Blade series. I think it would add a lot to GGX3 or whatever the next one will be called.

I don't think it's possible to remove memorization entirely. You need to know what the characters can do and how they do them. They can make this less complicated and easier to access, but it would also end up making it less fun for more experienced players. Perhaps it would be possible to expand on the EO in CVS2 to create different levels of complexity within a game, so that when the player has one level down they can move onto the next.

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But with an emphasis on more timing you still get some memorization, but it isn't extreme. You could memorize when to reverse moves by the animations themselves, etc. Therefore making you a better fighter, right? Therein lays the skill of fighting, realistically.

You have to play a game of cat and mouse with your opponent. Will you play defensive or agressive? Sly or blunt, etc. Like a real fight would take place.

There's still plenty of room for the street fighter alpha beta zeta complata 40, but I'd like to have a choice. I like choices.

If you want to get complicated;

A reversal in practically every SF game is where you finish the execution of a special (and it connects) during the initial 'get up' frames. Mash wildly, you might get the move out, but after that 'reversal' time frame. The timeframe is important because it adds a bit of priority to your move. For example, a Shoryuken has it's own 'invicible' timeframe, but is extended (or given more priority - I forget) when done as a reversal. I don't see how you think mashing gets anywhere in these instances - do a move too fast or too wild and you're less likely to get the reversal.

As for stuffing attacks...I THINK there's a good balance of finnese betweenbeing able to 'wake up' an opponent who's getting up. You have to make sure though that whatever you use, that it's hit detection frame(s) is in the opponent's hit detection at the same frame where the opponent counts as being 'up.' Believe it or not, someone who knows what they're doing will stuff more attacks and reverse more on wake up than someone flailing the stick and hitting buttons.

Then again, all this was back when I was anal enough about fighters to give a damn.

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Originally posted by Andrew
MechDeus: What am I talking about about the button combinations? A shoryuken. To do this maneuver you must execute a button combination. Something I personally do not enjoy.

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So you don't like moves, but don't want fighters to use buttons? Are you suggesting a trackball or something?

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hahaha? I believe I posed a question as to what parrying was by giving my interpretation of parrying.

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You wrote as though you believed it to be the same as jumping, not a question. A question as to what parrying would be should be phrased as, "What is parrying?"

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After doing some research it means deflecting. Still meaning nothing to my arguement of button combinations.

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No, it was directed towards your argument about defense. Read what I wrote and what I wrote it in response to.

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I don't believe you can reflect peoples attacks in street fight or DOA 3, now, can you?

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Umm... yes you can in SF. Hence why I listed as part of SFIII. Pretty obvious.

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(not that it has anything to do with my original statement, but I'll patronize you since holding back is called blocking and jumping out of the way is dodging)

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What does blocking and jumping have to do with anything and when did I bring either up?

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Ok, so you can counter a combo? I'm not denying counters are in the game my confused friend. I'm saying they've got no correlation with the moves (the 'counters') and button mashers can pull off just as many as a regular combatant due to the ridiculous amount of combos needed in a fight to accomplish the outrageous attacks everyone loves.

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You're saying a button masher can utilize counters as well as anyone else? LIKE I ALREADY SAID, go play VF4, SFIII, Alpha, or Soul Calibur and see how well you can pull off counters. In three of the above four listed games counters change movement and reactions based on the incoming attacks.

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Point still remains through all of your babble: I don't like combos, therefor I want a fighter relying on timing and a heavy reversal/ link system. How can you dispute what I want?

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I won't dispute what you want, but what you've stated fighters don't have they have had for years. That's what I'm arguing, but your thick skull has trouble comprehending anything. As for what you want, like Stone said, it's a wrestling game. Maybe you'll love UFC, go play that as it has everything you're looking for in a fighting game.

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Pressure tactics? Example please. I'm not saying I'm right about reversals. I could very well be totally wrong. But my main point, my 'thesis', which was originally stated as the second post of this thread, was that I don't like emphasis on button combinations but more on timing and reversals. Therefor I want the genre to evolve past this convention I do not like. ("I" being the key word)

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It's not whether or not you specifically want it, it's that we've already had it for years. Half of learning a modern fighter is the defensive reversal route, figuring out how it works, what can be redirected or stopped with what, how you can spin the match back into your favor no matter how pressure-heavy your opponent may be.

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Button combinations being first on the list.

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I hate to break this to you, but most every single game made since the mid-80s with any sort of fighting aspect has button combinations. Otherwise you'd just be pressing the punch or kick button over and over. Without different ways of executing attacks, how can the game know you want to perform a different attack? Unless of course, you've got some Vulcan-mindmeld going on with plastic cartridges.

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But with an emphasis on more timing you still get some memorization, but it isn't extreme. You could memorize when to reverse moves by the animations themselves, etc. Therefore making you a better fighter, right? Therein lays the skill of fighting, realistically.

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Seriously, play some fighting games for a while. What you've just stated has a staple of the good parts of the genre since SFII.

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You have to play a game of cat and mouse with your opponent. Will you play defensive or agressive? Sly or blunt, etc. Like a real fight would take place.

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SFIII favors defense, GGXX favors offense. Stay away from those and play VF4 or SC which allow for whatever kind of play style you want. CvS2 also allows for this within the Groove system, but you don't enjoy using moves or combos.

Andrew. You make no sense at all. Quit whilst dignity can still be held on to.

The more I read this thread the more I realise VF4 is curently the best fighting game out there--and if you haven't played it then you don't know fighting games. There really is a sense of improvement even just going through kumite mode. My dream fighter would look and play like a choreographed kung fu movie. I didn't really like MK: DA but I think the various "block stances" (different block animations for each consecutive move received) were well executed. If you have ever seen the VF4 teasers and Intro movies, I want it to eventually play like that. Imagine one day being able to have such control over your character that you can feint, improvise and counter immediately and fluidly.

Andrew: Please read

Sorry, but fighter fans tend to be really protective of their genre, which is why People are being hostile towards you.

This genre is probably the most complex genre in video and arcade gaming. It involves speed, timing, and reflexes. Its almost a science. Have you ever played a fighting game against someone who knows what they are doing? Anyone who knows anything about the genre would not make blanket statements like that they all revolve around button mashing.

If you've played anything apart from the VS series, you'd know that timing is the key to winning. Button mashers are marked for death in SFIII and the alpha and KOF series. Perhaps they are too fast for you to get the timing right.

Also, when whoever it was mentioned parrying, they were referring to an actual technique from SFIII. By tapping forward just as the attack hits you, you slap it out of the way. The bonus stage in SFIII is someone throwing basketballs at you, and you are supposed to parry them aside. What did you do? have you even played it?

You obviously do not know enough about the genre to contribute to this discussion properly. If you don't like button combinations, go play evil zone, a game that is totally flawed by its lack of depth, which is basically what you are asking for. If you can think of a way to maintain the depth of current fighting games while eliminating button combinations, please, do post.


Also, realism does not equal fun. By making the genre more realistic, you will stunt its fluidity and hence destroy its playability. Certain aspects of realism can be included, however you seem to think that total realism should be the goal of game developers, which it clearly is not.

btw, "deflection" and "reflection" are very different. Go back to your dictionary.

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The more I read this thread the more I realise VF4 is curently the best fighting game out there--and if you haven't played it then you don't know fighting games

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What a bold statement! That could've been Sega's signature marketing term. Suddenly if any fighting enthusiast plays games but disregards VF,...suddenly they don't know fighting games? Interesting. :)

The Virtua Fighter series is certainly one of the most impressive fighting franchises out there...though there's no factual information which credits it for being the BEST. TNL's media guru Nercm especially will adopt you as family for your acknowledgment, but that particular phrase above may get you a few negative outbursts from avid fans from other fighting brands released on the market.

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Originally posted by Hero
I want a fighter that people won't be afraid to try, drawn in and awed after the first play, and commits a player at just the right amount to improve at. As fighting games are, only the hardest players are conisdered 'good' and anyone who doesn't have the benefit of good competiion falls behind. I want a fighter that lets players feel like they're getting better, and actually are getting better. Not this 'memorize it like a science' - we have enough of those.

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There are some good points in there.

The barrier of entry for a lot of fighting games nowadays is pretty ridiculous. Can you imagine trying to be new to fighters and wandering into an arcade to play MVC2 against people who've been playing from the get-go?

With regards to improving skill, companies have taken a few baby steps in that direction, with the inclusion of training modes and command lists. As it stands though, it's up to the player to go out and learn how to improve their skills. Nothing in a manual will teach you about effective custom combos, roll cancels, burst cancels, etc. Even if you're not interested in know how to do those, you can at least know what they are.

There's also not much help in terms of finding resources, if you don't know about them. Lots of people know about Gamefaqs, but 95% of the street fighter faqs on there are garbage. A search for "Street Fighter" on google doesn't even bring up shoryuken.com.

As it stands though, the best way to improve is still to play other people. With online play finally arriving for fighters here in the US, hopefully that'll become more of an option for people. And frankly, I have far more fun playing against others than I do against AI (more on that later). You learn a lot more vs equal or better skilled opponents.

I'd love to see an improved AI in fighting games. One that, on its default setting, "misses" moves it "tries" to do. Like getting a duck fierce instead of a fireball. As you ramp up the difficulty, it tries more advanced tactics like wake up attacks and reversals.

Andrew: You say you want fighters to evolve beyond "button combinations" (special moves), but if you take those away, then all you have left are a couple of guys walking back and forth at each other hitting punch and kick. Do you want single button special moves? You say you want more emphasis on timing and reversals, but you have to put that in some context, which requires at least a basic understanding of the current fighting genre.

Masaka: In regards to SRK's search engine listing by keywords...I find that hard to believe with all that Shoryuken.com has done for the community and its rapid rate of popularity over the years doesn't even give it a valid occurence when posting Street Fighter. That's very odd.

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The barrier of entry for a lot of fighting games nowadays is pretty ridiculous. Can you imagine trying to be new to fighters and wandering into an arcade to play MVC2 against people who've been playing from the get-go?

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How do you propose this to be resolved. You know as well as I do that before the Golfland arcades closed, those were the primary spots for testing games (and occassionally Chicago and New York may have been fortunate to get a test machine). It still seems somewhat impossible with the patch of arcades which remain. Chinatown Fair for instance you can expect this because well - some of them live there :lol:

If the games were released simultaneously (as they basically motioned to do with Marvel vs. Capcom 2), I could see this concept become a reality. That's definitely been a major hamper with a lot of newcomers with generally any of the past fighting games over the years.

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With regards to improving skill, companies have taken a few baby steps in that direction, with the inclusion of training modes and command lists. As it stands though, it's up to the player to go out and learn how to improve their skills. Nothing in a manual will teach you about effective custom combos, roll cancels, burst cancels, etc. Even if you're not interested in know how to do those, you can at least know what they are.

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Training modes have gotten show a remarkable improvement, and I wish this feature was as extensive as it's become in recent titles compared to their predecessors. As much as I dislike EO mode in CVS2, it's a nice effort to get a beginner familiar with the moves. Though, ideally, and this is of course expecting too much - we now have the technology where an interactive tutorial should be featured in the games which could help a player to learn the mechanics (at the least, those which are documented in the manual). To me, that would be taking the tutorial aspect to the next level and hopefully in the immediate future, something similar to that will be developed!

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There's also not much help in terms of finding resources, if you don't know about them. Lots of people know about Gamefaqs, but 95% of the street fighter faqs on there are garbage. A search for "Street Fighter" on google doesn't even bring up shoryuken.com.

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Amen. Though Kao was pretty good at the material he worked on. I miss GPOW (which basically was the precursor to SRK)

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As it stands though, the best way to improve is still to play other people. With online play finally arriving for fighters here in the US, hopefully that'll become more of an option for people. And frankly, I have far more fun playing against others than I do against AI (more on that later). You learn a lot more vs equal or better skilled opponents.

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Well...not just people in general, but GOOD people. CVS2 has recreated that online fighting community atmosphere that's been absent since the fall of Xband (heh, there's even a thread dedicated to the veterans of that era). Depending how you look at it, where the direct interaction with other opponents is compromised, you're now open to a much broader range of players, not just nationally - but worldwide (XBand wasn't able to deliver that, unfortunately). I enjoyed AI for awhile until I discovered arcades and have to agree with you on that 100%

So when are you and Ms. Cannon Spike crashing the party online?

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I'd love to see an improved AI in fighting games. One that, on its default setting, "misses" moves it "tries" to do. Like getting a duck fierce instead of a fireball. As you ramp up the difficulty, it tries more advanced tactics like wake up attacks and reversals.

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Seriously. I wonder who some of these developers go to in order to create the AI? Just to add to your aspiration...I'd love to actually see that same concept applied to the training mode aspects I discussed above... lots of possibilities. Hopefully someone can deliver upon a few.

(Do I really want to step into this? Oops..too late..)

I am by no means a fighting game expert. I enjoy the genre, even if I get my ass handed to me on a regular basis by human competition (which makes CvSNK EO XBL oooh so tempting). But I do have some things that I would like to see in the genre.

As far as combos, timing, etc.: I don't have a problem with combos, but I'm not a huge fan of looking for the 4th frame of the hurricane fist wakeup stun punch. :p I agree that timing is important for fighting games (which is one reason some people still dislike 3D fighting games), but there gets to be a point where it seems anal retentive.

I do like the idea of parrying though. One thing I loved about Soul Calibur was the "offensive guard" that you could use to knock the opponents weapon aside and open them up to a quick attack. I also miss the weapon meter in Soul Blade/Edge that punished people who blocked too much by, well, destroying their weapon. Block meters and/or guard cancel type moves kill turtling, which helps keep the pace of the game up.

The one thing I'd love to see in the fighting game genre is 2-on-2 fights. I love the dramatic battle in SFA and SFA3. I'd love to see that with 2 humans versus 2 humans though. Hell, we've got these 4 port consoles (well, if you ignore the PS2 :p), let's use all 4 ports!
While the challenge of taking on someone mano-a-mano can be appealing, workinging with a friend to take down another team would be great fun as well. Mayhaps we'll see something like this in SpikeOut Extreme.

I loved Dramatic Battle as well. One of the few fighting games that offered up to four player competitive play years ago was Yu-Yu Hakusho (I probably spelled the last part wrong, but that's ok) :p

While I wait for a few sql queries to run, here's some more:

Question to all the experts: Do you feel that most players have their own style? By that I mean if you take 25 SF3 Ken players, how many different styles do you think there are? 25? 5? 15? My point is, if you master a character, or at least have a firm grasp on the character, you know all their moves, quirks, etc. Now, you might play slightly differently (some defensive, some aggressive, some just rat bastard shin-pokers) than someone else, but the variations are relatively finite. So if you learn to play against one (good) Ken player, you'll probably do well against another Ken player.

What if you could play as a different Ken though? Would that have any appeal to you? I know a lot of people poo-poo the DBZ:Budokai game (and to an extent, rightfully so) as a fighting game, but there was one thing I really liked about the game: the capsule concept. Although that's partly due to the fact that it had some things in common with a fighting game concept I came up with back in high school. :)
My point is, because of being able to customize the moves of any given fighter, you can't learn to fight against a character. You have to learn to fight against a player. If anyone wants me to, I'll post the details of my fighting game concept. I'd do it now, but my queries finished. :)

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Originally posted by bahn
I find that hard to believe with all that Shoryuken.com has done for the community and its rapid rate of popularity over the years doesn't even give it a valid occurence when posting Street Fighter.

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Give it a whirl. I tried it earlier, and after 5-6 pages of stuff like this and this, I gave up.

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How do you propose this to be resolved.

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I wish I had a good answer to this. There are great sites out there for specific games: Shoryuken, TekkenZaibatsu, Gamecombos, etc. But Joe Gamer doesn't know about those. He reads in the manual about the "Custom Combo" system and goes, "neat". He doesn't get to see the cool videos of people doing 50-60% damaging combos. It would be nice if the companies themselves gave a shout out to the fansites out there that provide such great information and promotion for their games, but they seem to be either blisffully ignorant, or just plain stupid about it.

One think I liked about the Japanese release of CVS2 was that it came with a bonus disc containing CVS2 saved matches. How cool would that be? Even if they just took some footage of matches from when the game was being tested and stuck that on a disc, that would be an improvement.

Your suggestion of an interactive tutorial is a pretty good one. Even if were just a collection of some of the "Basics" combo videos that you see posted by various players, it would be FAR better than the "Here's your controller diagram, go to town" nonsense that you see in manuals.

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So when are you and Ms. Cannon Spike crashing the party online?

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As soon as I can get a connection good enough to play :( Currently, the pause between what I do and what happens on screen is long enough for me to run through Final Fantasy 7. When I am on though, I'm on as Masaka3620.


Wolffen: Dramatic battle was such a great idea. We used to spend hours beating on Bison in Alpha 1. I'd love to see a multiplayer Virtual On. Mmmmmm. Actually isn't Marz supposed to have that?

Regarding your question, I do think that most good players have their own style. While what they do with a given character might be more or less the same as somebody else who uses that character, everybody brings their own flavor to the table. That's part of what makes good players better than bad or average players. Things like being able to parry well, or time wake up attacks, or link normal moves, etc. While that has less to do with the character, that's a part of the person's playstyle with that character. That being said...

Customizable characters are a great idea in theory, but you'd run into a nightmare of balance problems. I'd like to hear about your idea though. SF3 took things a step in the right direction by allowing you to choose your super, but the problem is that good players will always choose the options that will give them the best opportunity to win, so people always pick the same super.

I really like the way Capcom did CVS2 though. The groove options let you define your play style with a given character (fierce punches aside). You can play mind games with P groove, old school with C groove, or "oh shit" with K-Groove. Obviously, some characters play better in a given groove than others, but that gets back to my point above.

Ammadeau, I'm with you on implementing the Last Blade deflections in GG, especially if they retain the method of its execution by having to press one button. Moves like parries, JD, and deflections are the only ones, IMO, that should not require a button combination to execute; rather they should be based on timing and positioning.

Andrew, sounds like you'd dig EO mode in CvS2. I recommend you give it a try if you haven't already. As for those who have been playing fighters for a while now, the button combination memorization isn't an issue because you see the same ones in nearly every fighting game. We've already memorized what there is to memorize (at least for 2D fighters). So a hcb, qcf, dp, etc., are motions/button combinations that have been etched into our muscle memory, and in many cases, mimic the actual movement of the move you're attempting to execute. It really isn't that difficult a concept to grasp. I don't think anyone is debating your tastes and preferences, but rather questioning the rationale you've been using.

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Originally posted by bahn
What a bold statement! That could've been Sega's signature marketing term. Suddenly if any fighting enthusiast plays games but disregards VF,...suddenly they don't know fighting games? Interesting. :)

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hehe, sory for my blanket statement. Maybe I should say that VF4 is the most technically impressive fighter out there. by not acknowledging that and it's innovations then trying to make a fighter feature wishlist is sorta moot. I understand it would be hard to implement a bunch of VF4 stuff in a 2d game like sidestep multi throw counters. Before VF4 I think the game that truly impressed me in terms of 3d fighting was Tobal 2. I'd use the term "depth" but people seem to have different interpretations of that word.

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Customizable characters are a great idea in theory, but you'd run into a nightmare of balance problems. I'd like to hear about your idea though.

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Heh. Careful what you ask for. :) I agree, balance would be the key problem with a customizable character game. DBZ:Budokai solved some of those issues via the capsule limitation (only seven slots available, and certain more powerful capsules used more slots), but it was still there in some respects.

Please keep in mind that this was designed late one night about 10 years ago. And it was my sophmore year in college, not high school, apparently (whatever year Eternal Champions came out). I had been playing too much EC, actually, especially as Rax, the cyborg. I got to thinking...cyborgs are "upgradable" so wouldn't it be cool to have a game where you could essentially make your character? From that possibly interesting seed was born "Blood & Metal."

You start off with a set amount of money. From there, you create your fighter. You chose his race, build, fighting style (to give certain base moves to all characters), cybernetics look, etc. From there you use your money to buy upgrades for your character. These could be speed, defense, or attack powerups, as well as special moves. Your character was limited to only so many upgrades, partially based on your money. (I never thought of the DBZ slots idea, but I'll steal it now). From there you'd enter into the fight tournament (there is a story to the game, but it's not worth repeating). As you battle and win, you earn $$$. You can also bet on other matches in your division (except your own...the player isn't allowed to throw fights :p) to try to earn more money. As you won more matches, you would be able move to higher divisions, which allow higher-end powerups (and more slots to put more upgrades in). Amongst all this, you'd have randomly generated opponents (random upgrades based on your division and possible cash earned by that division) to fight your way through, as opposed to specific characters. This would essentially make the fighting game different everytime you played through it (except for the last mofo at the end).

That's the gist of it. Yes, it would be a nightmare to balance, and the random opponent AI would be a BITCH to program, but, it'd be different. :) If it was made in this day and age, things like counters and parries would need to be in there as well.

Ok, everyone can tell me how stupid that idea is now.

Getting away from ten year old ideas, after playing Morrowind too much of late, I got to thinking about what some of you have mentioned in terms of block meters. In Morrowind you have a fatigue/stamina meter. If you attack constantly, it will deplete. If you block constantly it will deplete. And if you get punched when it's totally drained, you get knocked down. Such a feature in fighting games would be intriguing at the least. Ok. I'll shut up now.

It'd be nice to see a game implement a "KO Time Attack" mode- combining some elements of Time Attack and Survival. This would be good for Street Fighter IV, GGX3, or any SNK fighter. Here's my idea for such a thing:

- In the first match, the timer starts at 99. Matches in this mode are just one round. The timer here would replace your life bar- it will not reset to 99 before each match. A good representation for it here would be a ticking time bomb (like in the Street Fighter 1 continue screen).
- You get a 20 second time extension when you KO the opponent. More time can be earned during a match by doing combos, based on the combo's hit count.
- Landing a First Attack gives you 5 seconds.
- Being hit costs 2 seconds.
- If the time runs out before you KO your opponent, you lose. (No continues!) Forget about winning by turtling until the clock runs out.
- When you have only 10 seconds left, you instantly gain one power stock so you can use a super move as a desperation attack.
- Bonus points for time remaining at the end of a match should be substantial. If you take no hits or ticks during a match, your time bonus is doubled and you get another 10 seconds added on top of the regular 20.

yuck. time attack mode. >_<

:)

I think that sounds really cool. Not as the main mode, but as an extra one it would be sweet as hell.

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Originally posted by Hero
If you want to get complicated;

A reversal in practically every SF game is where you finish the execution of a special (and it connects) during the initial 'get up' frames. Mash wildly, you might get the move out, but after that 'reversal' time frame. The timeframe is important because it adds a bit of priority to your move. For example, a Shoryuken has it's own 'invicible' timeframe, but is extended (or given more priority - I forget) when done as a reversal. I don't see how you think mashing gets anywhere in these instances - do a move too fast or too wild and you're less likely to get the reversal.

As for stuffing attacks...I THINK there's a good balance of finnese betweenbeing able to 'wake up' an opponent who's getting up. You have to make sure though that whatever you use, that it's hit detection frame(s) is in the opponent's hit detection at the same frame where the opponent counts as being 'up.' Believe it or not, someone who knows what they're doing will stuff more attacks and reverse more on wake up than someone flailing the stick and hitting buttons.

Then again, all this was back when I was anal enough about fighters to give a damn.

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A reversal is typically considered REVERSING somebodies move. Therefore dealing potential damage to them with the maneuver that they did on you.

Instead you are countering a move in SF. You're either dodging with a jump or trying to get a hit on or a move out before the move impacts. This isn't what I want.

I also don't want the moves themseles to be 5 - 10 buttons to pull off. This was my complaint

but a shoryuken is f, df, f + p. 4 buttons (or 3, if you count f+p as one 'press').

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Originally posted by MechDeus
So you don't like moves, but don't want fighters to use buttons? Are you suggesting a trackball or something?You wrote as though you believed it to be the same as jumping, not a question. A question as to what parrying would be should be phrased as, "What is parrying?"No, it was directed towards your argument about defense. Read what I wrote and what I wrote it in response to.Umm... yes you can in SF. Hence why I listed as part of SFIII. Pretty obvious.What does blocking and jumping have to do with anything and when did I bring either up?You're saying a button masher can utilize counters as well as anyone else? LIKE I ALREADY SAID, go play VF4, SFIII, Alpha, or Soul Calibur and see how well you can pull off counters. In three of the above four listed games counters change movement and reactions based on the incoming attacks.I won't dispute what you want, but what you've stated fighters don't have they have had for years. That's what I'm arguing, but your thick skull has trouble comprehending anything. As for what you want, like Stone said, it's a wrestling game. Maybe you'll love UFC, go play that as it has everything you're looking for in a fighting game.It's not whether or not you specifically want it, it's that we've already had it for years. Half of learning a modern fighter is the defensive reversal route, figuring out how it works, what can be redirected or stopped with what, how you can spin the match back into your favor no matter how pressure-heavy your opponent may be.I hate to break this to you, but most every single game made since the mid-80s with any sort of fighting aspect has button combinations. Otherwise you'd just be pressing the punch or kick button over and over. Without different ways of executing attacks, how can the game know you want to perform a different attack? Unless of course, you've got some Vulcan-mindmeld going on with plastic cartridges.Seriously, play some fighting games for a while. What you've just stated has a staple of the good parts of the genre since SFII.SFIII favors defense, GGXX favors offense. Stay away from those and play VF4 or SC which allow for whatever kind of play style you want. CvS2 also allows for this within the Groove system, but you don't enjoy using moves or combos.

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Mechdeus' post:

When did I say I didn't like moves? When did I mention a trackball. I am saying I don't like combinations. Find a way to pull moves off without combinations needed to be pressed.

There are different types of questions. I believe I said isn't it in there as well. If not. As nothing to do with me not wanting combinations in a fighter. Smash brothers is a perfect example of simplified controls and a fun fighting game.

Thanks MechDeus. I play Soul Caliber with my friends once and awhile, guys who are good at playing the title and have tournaments with SF 3 and this title, which should make them better, and still wind up beating them when I have no clue what i'm doing besides an occasional attack

If you'd like to say anything about me not liking combos and wanting a game NOT based on combinations like the rest, please send it my way in the form of a PM or here in this thread.

Yes. I've played UFC and had a popular site that used to cover such titles. But I don't want Tito Ortiz and The Rock in it. I want fighters in atmospheres and such, a fighting game with elements as such.

I have never seen a deflection of an attack in SF 3. If there is I would enjoy a photo OR atleast an example with the buttons you'd press and such.....

So? They all do it so it HAS to be that way, right? Howabout no. I want a game in which combos and fighting styles stand out, not button combinations. Things like punch left, punch and right, etc. would be what I am talking about. not punch up down left right kick, etc.

It's a simple and solid request. Until a integral reversal system is implemented in a game, and not just a random 1 here or so followed by blocking, then you've said nothing against what I wish.

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Originally posted by Andrew

Thanks MechDeus. I play Soul Caliber with my friends once and awhile, guys who are good at playing the title and have tournaments with SF 3 and this title, which should make them better, and still wind up beating them when I have no clue what i'm doing besides an occasional attack

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You know, if this is true your friends must really suck, or you're a lot better than you're letting on.

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Originally posted by Stone
For most people, the word "combo" doesn't refer to moves that require multiple button presses to execute.

"D, D/F, F+P" isn't a "combo", it's a special move/what-have-you.

A combo is j.FP, c.FP, Fierce Dragon Punch.

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That's a combo and something I don't want.

Fire pro wrestling has GREAT gameplay, especially for back and forth fighting mechanics which should have been in a game long ago, IMO.

Not an: I block your shoryuken and fire back another or they collide, etc. Something like you punch me, I reverse at the right time and you are now open to getting the move used back at you, maybe even at double strength, etc.

Something to allow fluidity, aka rhythm. I'm not saying memorization should be totally iradicated, but I want an option.

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Originally posted by Briscobold
You know, if this is true your friends must really suck, or you're a lot better than you're letting on.

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No one can beat my friend when he goes to the arcade. It is very concievable that they suck and I am pretty good, but it's highly unlikely seeing as I have no clue what I'm doing outside of the typical fireball combo and the spinning kick thing.

I've also beat those Korean guys at the arcade that are always kicking peoples asses on several occasions.

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Originally posted by Andrew
A reversal is typically considered REVERSING somebodies move. Therefore dealing potential damage to them with the maneuver that they did on you.

Instead you are countering a move in SF. You're either dodging with a jump or trying to get a hit on or a move out before the move impacts. This isn't what I want.

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PARRYING AND GUARD IMPACT. Go to GameFAQs, look them up, and try them out.

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When did I say I didn't like moves? When did I mention a trackball. I am saying I don't like combinations. Find a way to pull moves off without combinations needed to be pressed.

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You didn't mention a trackball, but without button/joystick combinations, that's one of the few control schemes left.

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Smash brothers is a perfect example of simplified controls and a fun fighting game.

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But Smash Brothers uses button combinations and multi-button combos. Don't you hate those?

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Thanks MechDeus. I play Soul Caliber with my friends once and awhile, guys who are good at playing the title and have tournaments with SF 3 and this title, which should make them better, and still wind up beating them when I have no clue what i'm doing besides an occasional attack

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They suck. The majority of my friends refuse to play against me in a 2D fighter because they enjoy winning once in a while, but that doesn't make me an excellent player. If you're beating people at SFIII and SC through button-mashing, they're either incompetent or complete newbies to it.

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I have never seen a deflection of an attack in SF 3. If there is I would enjoy a photo OR atleast an example with the buttons you'd press and such.....

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SFIII parrying is performed by pressing forward at the exact moment of impact for medium/high hits and down for medium/low. Red parries are performed by parrying after blocking the initial hit. Screens are next to impossible to find since almost everyone uses Capcom's press photos, but if you really want to see it in action I'll upload a parry video for you.

As for SC, read a FAQ, it'll tell you more then I want to go on about it.

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Things like punch left, punch and right, etc.

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Think about it: If you take away button combinations that leaves you with just the regular buttons for every kind of attack. If you map the four face buttons Tekken-style that gives you four attacks, two of which stem from nearly the same location as the other two. Remove combos as well and what do you have? Two attacks: a punch and a kick.

Reversals would be too easy because the only paths attacks can come from are high and low. Once an animation begins, all you have to choose is the height. What's the point?

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Until a integral reversal system is implemented in a game, and not just a random 1 here or so followed by blocking, then you've said nothing against what I wish.

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It already does. You simply comprehend nothing besides blocking, which would make your ideal game pointless because you would never grasp how to play it and would bitch about how it's nothing but blocking.

And for Guard Impact: http://216.149.133.151/systemadv.html They used to have movies, but they're done because of the webpage move.

Since there's alot of density in this thread about me not wanting combinations and people not being able to think creatively, I will divulge in something I was referring too.

(claiming I don't know anything. I may not be the best or anything, or play them as much as you guys, but I've had the pleasure of playing some of these games, and the horros that go with them. All interpretive.)

You guy were right about parrying (deflecting, obviously a simple error on my part, but somehow you make it seem like this ruins my whole arguement about me not liking button combinations), but timing I don't think so.

Let me give you an example. A strike is the biggest move or way to attack in fighting. The most common way to knock somebody out in organized fighting is a swift yet firm knee to the head. But since this type of kneelift cannot really be accurately performed in the games (I'm aware Ryu has a knee lift, but it's nothing more then a punch, damage wise) we will go with a punch.

When in the animation of a light jab do you press the button? You only visibly see about 2 - 3 frames of the animation, which frame and at one point of the less than a second punch do you 'parry the attack' with? Even more so, does your opponent realistically react or do you simply get a jab in yourself and the battle resumes?

This is my example of a non integral reversal system. You don't get mondo damage from a reversal, you get the big hits from the strikes and cool moves from button combinations.

Not a bad strategy but it's been done to death.

I can't believe I'm going to do a rundown of a fight sequence from a game I picture, but since nobody understands how a fighting game without 'mad skeel comb0s' can be considered indepth.

So the basic game set up will be on an PSX controller, ok?
Controls:

[] square - punch. Depending on the pressure of the button the damage will change from a jab to a haymaker.

Up and down and square would entail different types of strikes to the body or gut.

O circle - grab. Depending on your fighting style you will perform a hold, grapple or toss. Different directions will dictate a different hold, grapple or toss.

X (ex!) - block. If you hold X you can block attacks, pretty simple. However if you time your blocks just right you can reverse a strike into a reversal. Or reverse a reversal of your strike. So a haymaker into a 'PARRY' (swipe the arm away) and follow up with a knee which could be reversed again into an elbow to the side, which could be reversed into a parry and jumping kneelift, etc.

You have to be on your guard. And to make things more indepth and less random, include a reversal cage that flashes on the top of the screen so people will find it easier to memorize and feel out where to press the buttons. (realitively the same time before impact. Harder to reverse moves like a drop kick or side kick would have different reversal timing)

And lastly triangle would be a dodge button which could reverse any move into some other hold, etc.

An example fight is in a cement room with nothing but janitor supplies in it.

Example: (of course I'm leaving out alot in my system because I plan on eventually creating a game like this)

So I'm a street tough (more trips, boxing and better with weaponry) and I'm fighting a greco roman fighter (typically long legs, hard kickers and they use holds)

The fight starts and the match begins.

I press the x button to pull of a jab and it is blocked, I simply hit some dry meat with a thud. I try again and the same happens. This time I attempt a haymaker to the head and the greco reverses this into a duck and uppercut to the gut. Seeing this happen I time my reversal and nail him (while he's crouched for a low uppercut) in the side of the head with a simple kick (a simple toe kick with the tough thrusting his foot like most do). The greco stumbles back, now with a wound (swell, boil, bruise, blood rush) on the side of his head.

I follow up with a low punch to the gut and nail it, and hit him with a hooking right jab. Opponent 'sells' punch convincingly by falling into a concrete wall for support. I attempt another straight jab to the face and he reverses it, sending my hand into the concrete.

Now that this occured I grab my fist realistically, open to an attack. He follows up with a jumping kick to my head, and I stumble back and fall down. I get up and he tries to take advantage by kicking me again, I reverse and hop over his kick with my lower body balanced on my hands and get up.

It's back and forth. Very enthralling.

Since both fighting styles favor an outside approach (outside meaning standing back to allow melee strikes, inside being submission fighting to disallow hard strikes)

Ok now back into the fight.

I charge him and he grabs me, taking me down in an arm bar. I press the dodging button and roll through into a ground strike (remember toughs aren't that good at holds) which he reverses into a triangle hold by catching with a leg scissors. From here my options are slim but a dodge reversal can be performed to back out of the hold before it is locked and now the tough is up and the greco is on the floor getting up.

Now, the point would be that in different positions you have the option to do a special move when you have a momentum meter up high enough. So say one of the grecos finishing moves was (aha) a knee lift and I as the street tough high punch him to the head, he reverses with a kick in the stomach which I reverse into a kick of my own (after a parry) and try a stomach haymaker.

The position I just set myself into would be the tough reaching to the inside for a strike, but bending angled to hit the blow, realistically, right? Well if the greco fighter had his momentum built up throughout a hard hitting battle he could here attempt his kneelift. So he hits it convincingly and gets a KO. Or my character is dazed.

I would lend alot from the wrestling genre as they have a very good system.

No combinations needed. It's all done with simplified controls but is still indepth. I'm not even getting into the movement (physically walking, running, jumping, etc.) or weapon usage, stages, etc.

I'm simply showing the basic, INTEGRAL gameplay which is mostly based on reversing, timing and NO combos. (or little)

It's very simple and would be fun to play. A good example of this is with powerstone. It had few combos, and made up for it with awesome environment interactivity.

I'm not suggesting beridding of memorization. Or beridding of combos from every fighter on the face of the planet! But I am suggesting something different fun and simplified, initially.

Addressing the above post by MechDeus:

Above is an example of not using a trackball. You, once again, put words into my mouth and assumed. Which is totally incorrect, as usual.

Smash Brothers combos were simply press strike repeatedly. The heart of their gameplay consisted of mega moves which you could do by simply pressing the C stick in multiple directions. There is a severe cut down on the combos, which is what I enjoy about it.

They suck? Well, that's great debate. Just make up facts about people you don't know! YEAH! That way I could say that Nintendo sucks at Xbox games therefore they hate it in an arguement of why Nintendo hates Microsoft! Again, assuming and it is totally wrong. I doubt everybody I play sucks and I'm a prodigy at fighting games.

I'm flattered you think I am.

I forgot your parrying and impact. Parrying an attack isn't a reversal, it's considered a dodge. Please try again (although you're still not addressing my point of me not liking button combinations here)

No I don't want a parry. I want a reversal. I want to see when you strike Ken with a kick and he reverses it into a trip or leg toss.

Yes MechDeus. Punches and kicks are typically what you do in fighting! YAY!

No you don't have to choose the height. You have to choose the appropriate attack (grab or strike), the proper timing and the proper path if the reversal system was implemented well. With combos it is useless? Why. Because if you reverse somebodies kick you can't enter a 360 and a punch because by the time you did that they'd be back to their original stance. Thank you for proving that there isn't an integral reversal system in the game you said.

Although it still doesn't change the fact or do anything to the fact that I dislike combos.

Oh then you follow it up with another assumption of me not liking something 'BECAUSE', spawning from another incorrect assumption of what I want.

Anything else I can clear up for you mr.deus? (without you assuming, of course)

edit: I actually went to that site and the movies don't work so it's abit useless. The arena photos are nice. I'll research guard impact from it if it's even on here, though. (seeing as you did not give me the courtesy of a specific link to back up this 'awesomely awesome point that will shatter me not liking combos!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!11111111111111111111111111)

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Originally posted by Andrew
No one can beat my friend when he goes to the arcade. It is very concievable that they suck and I am pretty good, but it's highly unlikely seeing as I have no clue what I'm doing outside of the typical fireball combo and the spinning kick thing.

I've also beat those Korean guys at the arcade that are always kicking peoples asses on several occasions.

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In pickering? I hardly see anyone in there.

Andrew: You just described DOA3 exactly. Well, aside from what the fighters look like.

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When in the animation of a light jab do you press the button? You only visibly see about 2 - 3 frames of the animation, which frame and at one point of the less than a second punch do you 'parry the attack' with? Even more so, does your opponent realistically react or do you simply get a jab in yourself and the battle resumes?

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With parrying, it should connect at the moment of impact. If you had a three frame attack, the first two would be the windup with a connection at the third. Forward would be pressed at the second frame and stop the attack on the third. When an attack is parried, a brief opening is created, long enough for a jab but not enough for anything slow like a hadoken or shoryuken. When a combo is parried, forward must be pressed for every single hit of the combo based on the rhythm of the attack (combos follow three different timing methods, Supers follow the same timing methods but can change mid-attack to other timing). The main trick is to parry a combo until the best moment for retaliation occurs, usually when a combo has a wind down animation or a pause. During that time the normal small space of opportunity grows by a fraction of a second, allowing the parrying fighter to perform almost anything they want.

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Originally posted by Briscobold
In pickering? I hardly see anyone in there.

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playdium is the one I go to mostly.

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Above is an example of not using a trackball. You, once again, put words into my mouth and assumed. Which is totally incorrect, as usual.

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What you just described was exactly what I said it would be: Extremely limited attacks that are easily reversed.

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ck? Well, that's great debate. Just make up facts about people you don't know!

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I know enough about fighting games to know that if that someone who plays a high-level fighting with an in-depth defense system that doesn't learn the defense would suck at it.

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I forgot your parrying and impact. Parrying an attack isn't a reversal, it's considered a dodge.

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You mean aside from it reversing the attack, right?

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Please try again (although you're still not addressing my point of me not liking button combinations here)

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You stupid fucking idiot. You amaze me with the absolute thickness of what must be the biggest skull known to man. The comments about games with defense are obviously in reference to your comments about games not having said defense, having nothing to do with button combinations. Please dig your way through that fog of idiocy and read.

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Yes MechDeus. Punches and kicks are typically what you do in fighting! YAY!

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No, fighting games have more then one punch and kick. Again, trying reading.

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No you don't have to choose the height. You have to choose the appropriate attack (grab or strike), the proper timing and the proper path if the reversal system was implemented well. With combos it is useless? Why. Because if you reverse somebodies kick you can't enter a 360 and a punch because by the time you did that they'd be back to their original stance. Thank you for proving that there isn't an integral reversal system in the game you said.

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I proved my point whereas you only proved your incompetence of understanding. Just like the last argument we had.

If you only have two attacks the timing becomes quickly understood and if you have an instant reversal then no skill is required. It plateaus almost immediately especially if no height is involved because people can sit there and reverse indefinately. This is like DOA3 without the moves, which means the easiest reversal system in the entire history of videogames just got easier.

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edit: I actually went to that site and the movies don't work so it's abit useless.

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I already said the movies didn't work (there you go not reading again).

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I'll research guard impact from it if it's even on here, though. (seeing as you did not give me the courtesy of a specific link to back up this 'awesomely awesome point that will shatter me not liking combos

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That is a direct link, try actually looking at the page and reading. I realize that comprehension of even the tiniest things is tough on you, but at least try.

Yes. I'm aware DOA 3 had reversals in it. I like DOA 3 and play it often. However, the reversals are too few and far between without a clear cut INTEGRAL insertion. I remember being that big fella and resersing that Ninja Gaiden guys move into a samoan drop, it was sweet! But I think the reversals, which kick ass, should be alot more plentiful.

I didn't know you could do that in Street Fighter. I think that's awesome and admit I was wrong. I think I'm going to practice abit more at it.

But i still dislike the emphasis on button combinations. I'd also love more interaction with levels, which I don't want to discuss here due to it being something I want to create in the future (currently working on a 2D gaming team, making a tetris clone), but it would be different than DOA 3.

DOA is a start and it's fun, but there's definitely not enough for my liking. (and still a heavy emphasis on combos)

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But I think the reversals, which kick ass, should be alot more plentiful.

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:wtf: To this I highly question if you've even played DOA3. I usually see them at the rate of one every couple seconds, considering they negate almost every single combo in the game and require no timing to execute well.

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and still a heavy emphasis on combos

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Mash the counter button during a combo and you'll cancel it and deal more more damage usually about three hits in. Ground combos never go past the initial couple hits for the same reason they dont in KI: it's suicide.

Above post address:

You know enough to be psychic and to simply assume things that you don't know to be true, since they are not.

NO mech dues. Repelling someones attack and then jabbing isn't a reversal. It's a dodge and strike. I read your above post, and it has nothing to do with me not liking button combinations. Even myself providing an example of a game that doesn't need them.

I can tell you're running out of material due to the blatant immaturity in the language, which doesn't become you.

OMG. Maybe you should try to read. I even said that punches and kicks are typical to 'fighting'. Maybe you need to read and comprehend. A solid concept for a fighter!
No need for the: "OMG, no flaming fireballs WTF n00b!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!"
again I repeat this isn't for every fighting game, but somehting different.

I'm not seeing your arguement about having something other than a combination filled piece with cartoon style- over the top attacks. You're basically tyrading that every fighter MUST have this to be 'l337'. Otherwise why are we even having an arguement?

Oh... right... about you not addressing my original thesis about me wanting something other than a combo oriented fighter with more emphasis on timing...

Again, you're assuming. When did I say you'd be stuck to 2 attacks? There are different kinds of kicks and I even said, in the piece you quoted, an example of it being more complex with you having to address the height, the type and the momentum. (timing in laments, just for you!)

And then you follow up with the referal to DOA 3, making it totally clear you do not understand something but are either are too afraid to admit it or have some sort of compulsion with making arguements while ignoring somebodies original arguement! YAY! (see, I can assume too)

No, I read the movies didn't work. But there's nothing about guard impact other than a loose referencing to it in the opening paragraph of the defense blurb. Would this be MechDeus assuming once more? Couldn't be, as he NEVER assumes! :rolleyes:

Wow. I mean, I'm really sorry I asked you to actually back up your arguement with specifics instead of simply pointing in a vague direction and muttering. Needless to say, you obviously don't understand that I did actually follow through the link and, by golly, follow through the other links to try and find something... SOMETHING about guard impact.

Oh mighty fighting guru, you've taught me so much about Parrying in fighting games (not making the connection to reversing), please don't leave me out in the dark about guard impact and how it's so 'l337' it shatters my entire perspective about me not liking combo emphasized fighting games, and simply wanting another option!

Oh wait........ I'm not supposed to bring that up because you don't say anything to dispute it, right?

BTW, this is actually quite good MechDeus. An actual discussion, strong hearted, about something on a message board on the internet without the mods going NUTS! I've never seen this before... well I have but it's rare.

Let me interject before Mech posts:

Walk away. Both of you.

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Originally posted by MechDeus
:wtf: To this I highly question if you've even played DOA3. I usually see them at the rate of one every couple seconds, considering they negate almost every single combo in the game and require no timing to execute well.Mash the counter button during a combo and you'll cancel it and deal more more damage usually about three hits in. Ground combos never go past the initial couple hits for the same reason they dont in KI: it's suicide.

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You always question whether or not i've played a game. It seems to be your big defense.

No mechdeus. I don't play games, really, I simply post on a message board about them for jollies!!!!! YAYY!!!!!

Anyway. I said that reversals are in DOA 3. I gave you this. My point is that there aren't that many. You say once every couple of seconds but I see one once every couple of minutes. And I practiced in this game with the computer on 10......

So unless the computer doesn't do them often, then they aren't enough for me.

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Originally posted by Briscobold
Let me interject before Mech posts:

Walk away. Both of you.

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I think it's a pretty healthy arguement we have going on here. If bahn or burgundy or yoshi, etc. comes in and tells us we're not allowed I will stop replying and do back to simply replying to threads which ask me what my favorite game is.

I like listing out stuff, I really do. It's very monotonous and that can be fun once and awhile.

Repelling someones attack and then jabbing isn't a reversal. It's a dodge and strike.[/quote]Repelling and dodging are two different things. To repel an attack and then attack is a reversal by any definition, the main difference between parrying and DOA-style reversals is that one is a single button press and in the other you need to actually know some moves to be effective.

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I read your above post, and it has nothing to do with me not liking button combinations. Even myself providing an example of a game that doesn't need them.

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God you're dumb.

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I can tell you're running out of material due to the blatant immaturity in the language, which doesn't become you.

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It's because you don't have any material due to the blatant stupidity of your posts.

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OMG. Maybe you should try to read. I even said that punches and kicks are typical to 'fighting'. Maybe you need to read and comprehend. A solid concept for a fighter!

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You're telling me to read when it's clear you didn't even comprehend what I wrote? I stated a sentence regarding the number of attacks in regards to reversals. Start reading, Opa.

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I'm not seeing your arguement about having something other than a combination filled piece with cartoon style- over the top attacks.

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At what point did I say anything at all regarding fighters being forced to revolve around combos? Oh wait, I didn't, so stop making things up.

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Oh... right... about you not addressing my original thesis about me wanting something other than a combo oriented fighter with more emphasis on timing...

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First off, I never said anything about a fighter not being based combos being a bad thing, secondly, current fighters are based around almost nothing but timing.

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Again, you're assuming. When did I say you'd be stuck to 2 attacks?

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You only have two attack buttons and you said yourself numerous times you don't like moves or button combos. Thereby through process of elimination that only leaves the possibility of two attacks.

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But there's nothing about guard impact other than a loose referencing to it in the opening paragraph of the defense blurb.

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Sure, if you don't count the following six examples that show the different ways it's used and how to perform them.

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Would this be MechDeus assuming once more?

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You're right, I assumed you could read and knew English. Clearly this was my major fault here.

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I mean, I'm really sorry I asked you to actually back up your arguement with specifics instead of simply pointing in a vague direction and muttering.

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I provided examples and offered to host a movie on parrying. Claiming I'm not doing something I already did does nothing to strengthen your argument that didn't exist in the first place.

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You always question whether or not i've played a game. It seems to be your big defense.

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That wasn't a defense, Opa. Learn English.

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My point is that there aren't that many.

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My point is, you're not playing against anyone who knows what the buttons are.

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Needless to say, you obviously don't understand that I did actually follow through the link and, by golly, follow through the other links to try and find something... SOMETHING about guard impact.

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You're right, I don't understand. Especially since I only gave you one link, so I don't know what the hell else you clicked on. As for what I suggested, I'm terribly sorry you couldn't figure out that www.gamefaqs.com was the web address of GameFAQs.

This thread is going nowhere fast. Andrew, you should defer to experience--MechDeus knows what he's talking about. My general impression is that Andrew longs for the days of Karate Champ.

I don't know. It's funny to see Andrew get owned by Mech, almost on a regular basis now.

ANDREW: PLEASE READ THIS TIME. I MEAN IT.

We can't argue about the fact that you don't like combos. How can we? thats what you think. Its like arguing over what your favorite color is. If its blue, we can't say it isn't. You want us to "address" this personal distaste for combos? it has been addressed.



Reversal in terms of fighting is when the roles of attacker and defender are reversed due to the move in question, such as a parry (which is different from dodging, as it envolves contact with the attack), not when you reverse the direction of someones attack.


Also, AI is not considered representitive of how people play a game. These games are considered a multi-player experience, which involves playing against other people. If the computer on level 10 in training mode doesn't use reversals, than it simply has not been coded to exploit the reversal system to full effect.


Now, how do you intend on making a 2d game where every attack is reversable, as well as the reversals? That would require an inane amount of animation frames (I'm assuming you mean 2d, as you are in a 2d gaming team) and hardcore coding. I'm not sure RAM is at a stage where such an idea can be fully implemented without making it look like total shit.

Also, It is much harder to make a fighter compared to a Puzzle game (Trust me, I've made both). If you can only code at a puzzle game level, this idea will be sitting in your head for several years.

Further more, the system you are talking about sounds terrible. The fights would go punch, reversal, reversal, reversal, reversal, reversal, reversal, reversal, reversal, and so on. Time would run out before any health is lost. Further more, you couldn't get "good" at it, which defeats the purpose of playing it for a great number of people.

There are games that have similar reversal systems, which have ultimately flawed them, for example, Ergheiz. It uses a simple reversal system in which the character actually flashes when you need to push the button to reverse. As a result, throwing is useless. Also, you can catch someones sword and throw them to the side, which renders swords completely useless too.


now, if you go back and read my other post with the heading "Andrew: Please read", it has a bunch of other points as well that you either didn't read or ignored.

ANDREW: PLEASE READ THIS TIME. I MEAN IT.
ANDREW: PLEASE READ THIS TIME. I MEAN IT.
ANDREW: PLEASE READ THIS TIME. I MEAN IT.

I'd like to thank Andrew and MechDeus for distracting people from ripping my game idea to shreds. :)

haha, your idea sounds quite good, especially if you intend it to be a 3d fighter/rpg thing. The only problem I can see is people will end up far too strong to verse newer players properly, hence warding off newer players. Perhaps a class (as in ranking) or ratio system could help that though.

No a reversal is taking somebodies attack, and using its momentum against him. A dodge and strike is just that... hence the word REVERSE in the word reversal.

I'm not dumb, you've stated nothing against the point I made. You said nothing against my points, yet continually spew that you did.
The only ground you ever made was with making assumptions.

Yes, you said that a fighter without combos would simply be a punch and kick fest with no depth. That's a good thing in your books I take it?

haha, you made a couple of jokes. La-tee-da, that's all great and dandy but you still have no concept and ignore my main point of not liking combos system.

The system above ads more depth to a fight then simply adding empty layers or pyro. It's integral (not that word again!) to the gameplay. And you said I said I don't like moves. When? I don't like button combos. But every move can be done with a limited button set, advancing gameplay, as I gave the example of.

Your whole ARGUEMENT is about not needing combination based fighters and why you snapped at me in the first place. Stating everything I wanted (everything includes the combos not being there) is already in games, which it isn't.

Actually saying I haven't played again and questioning my credibility is a defensive mech in an arguement. Hate to inform you...

Out of this whole arguement all you've done is simply tell me what a parry is, which is not a reversal all the while avoiding how I don't like button combos.

Arjue: I think the uber-power character vs noob would be best handled by classes. As you move up in classes, you get more slots for upgrades. If you fight a noob, your slots would be reduced for the fight down to the number the noob's class has. So, if Master rank has, say, 10 slots available, and Amatuer has only 5, you'd have to reduce your upgrades to only 5 slots to play against him. The Master would probably still win due to skill (not to mention perhaps using one massive 5-slot upgrade as opposed to several 1~2 slot upgrades), but the noob would have a fighting chance (no pun intended).

One thing I forgot to mention about the betting aspect: You can lose all your money and get in trouble with the bookies. If that happens, you may have to sell all your upgrades and go back down to a lower ranking to earn money again. :)

Holy moly.

Wolffen: Your idea sounds more like an RPG than a fighting game ;) For a vs aspect, you could just allow people to pick x number of upgrades and just go at it, or let them bring over their memory card or whatever and duke it out. And add a random configuration so you could just jump in and play or whatever.

I'm reminded of the EX-Groove mode in CVS2, and the EX-ism (or whatever it's called) in Alpha 3. Especially Alpha 3. You fought in the world league or whatever, and earned points so you could customize your charcter by adding chain combos, custom combos, etc. Slighty different concept, in that you're adding systems to your characters moves, rather than moves to a base character.

Sounds good wolfen. I especially like the betting bit.

In general, it reminds me of a Jap snes game, though I can't remember its name...

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Originally posted by Andrew
No a reversal is taking somebodies attack, and using its momentum against him. A dodge and strike is just that... hence the word REVERSE in the word reversal.

I'm not dumb, you've stated nothing against the point I made. You said nothing against my points, yet continually spew that you did.
The only ground you ever made was with making assumptions.

Yes, you said that a fighter without combos would simply be a punch and kick fest with no depth. That's a good thing in your books I take it?

haha, you made a couple of jokes. La-tee-da, that's all great and dandy but you still have no concept and ignore my main point of not liking combos system.

The system above ads more depth to a fight then simply adding empty layers or pyro. It's integral (not that word again!) to the gameplay. And you said I said I don't like moves. When? I don't like button combos. But every move can be done with a limited button set, advancing gameplay, as I gave the example of.

Your whole ARGUEMENT is about not needing combination based fighters and why you snapped at me in the first place. Stating everything I wanted (everything includes the combos not being there) is already in games, which it isn't.

Actually saying I haven't played again and questioning my credibility is a defensive mech in an arguement. Hate to inform you...

Out of this whole arguement all you've done is simply tell me what a parry is, which is not a reversal all the while avoiding how I don't like button combos.

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OK, you didn't read what I said Andrew. Lets go over it again...

We can't argue about the fact that you don't like combos. How can we? thats what you think. Its like arguing over what your favorite color is. If its blue, we can't say it isn't. You want us to "address" this personal distaste for combos? it has been addressed.


Reversal in terms of fighting is when the roles of attacker and defender are reversed (Hence the term reversal) due to the move in question, not when you reverse the direction of someones attack.


You made a point that Reversals in DOA3 don't play a vital enough role, saying that you only see one every minute or so, and your evidence to back this up is that the Computer on 10 isn't a reversal whore. I made the point that Fighters are considered multiplayer games, which invloves playing against humans, and that it is humans that exploit the ultra simple reversal system. The coders would not make the AI examplify the games major flaw. That would be stupid.


Your arguement was that in your opinion, Fighters shouldn't use button combinations and should be based more on timing.

I asked you to present a way to eliminate button combinations from fighters without destroying the depth, and what you posted is TERRIBLY FLAWED and is nowhere near as deep as current fighters. Also, Its barely even a fighter, more like a fight simulation.

Also, as it has been said probably over 10 times, current 2D fighters revolve around timing. If you watch some tourney vids, you'll see that the fights are mainly fought pecks at a time. This is because the current 2d fighters revolve highly around Countering, and therefore timing. If you can beat everyone you've played by button mashing, Then none of them are good.

That is as much of a fact as saying that if you can beat everyone you've raced against by crawling like a worm, then they aren't good runners.



A wise man once said "its pointless arguing with dumb people. They bring you down to their level, then beat you with experience."

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Originally posted by Hero
I want a fighter that people won't be afraid to try, drawn in and awed after the first play, and commits a player at just the right amount to improve at.

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Are you talking about games, or you?

Masaka, that's kind of the idea, in some respects. My goal wasn't so much to alter the dynamics of the fighting genre as much as create fighting game with higher replayability in single-player mode (unless you're drooling at the graphics). Most fighting games get pretty boring in single player mode after awhile. I wanted to change that, as well as allow the player the capability to not just choose a character that matches their style of play, but also make a character for their style as well. It'd still be a logistical nightmare though. :)

Andrew your ideas are flawed for several reasons. Based off of what you described on page 4, if I were playing that game, I would sit and wait for the other person to do something, because there's less risk involved. Here's how I picture a round of that game going:

ROUND 1: FIGHT!

*sit*
*sit some more*
*move back and forth*
*throw out some whiffing attacks*
*sit*
*sit*

*repeat ad nauseum*

TIME OVAH.

Because of the emphasis you put on reversals and the ability to get around attacks, the risk/reward for attacking is badly skewed. That's one of the problems with CVS2, and why turtling is so prevelent. It's simply easier and more worthwhile to sit, wait and react to what the other person is doing. What you're proposing would be on the same scale, only multiplied by a factor of 10.

Arjue is right, we can't argue your dislike of motions for doing special moves, although I honestly can't understand it. So we'll leave it at that and move on.

Honestly, the idea doesn't sound very interesting to me. A fighting system based heavily on very simple to execute reversals doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. DOA3 which, yes, places a lot of emphasis on reversals, also didn't appeal to me. Playing the computer is not a healthy indication of what is possible (or broken) in a fighting game. Otherwise the CPU in CVS2 would do nothing but pick Cammy/Blanka/Sagat and throw out fierce.

Lastly, you aren't expressing your ideas very well, especially as they apply to current fighting games. I'm not trying to nitpick, but if you're going to debate about the things you don't like currently, you have to be able to express them correctly.

I think I posted this before, but my dream for fight games has little to do with the actual intricacies of the fight engine. Rather, I'd prefer a more fulfilling single player experience.

Imagine that instead of having one tournament, you have 11 in different regions of the world. You're invited to one. In order to gain access to new ones you not only have to win other ones, but win them in a spectacular fashion. You'll (literally) be a world warrior, hoping to gain access to the final tournament (the one we usually play from the get go in Street Fighter games).

Battles in specific territories would have announcers spitting in their native toungue and local music blaring through the speakers. Once you beat a tournment, you can unlock the previous champion of said region.

Graphically, I want this bitch to use the same technology as Zelda: Wind Waker. (Not the same artistical style, just the same engine. This way, it'll look like GGXX, or SFIII but can appeal to many because it's 3-D (sorta).

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Originally posted by arjue
haha, your idea sounds quite good, especially if you intend it to be a 3d fighter/rpg thing. The only problem I can see is people will end up far too strong to verse newer players properly, hence warding off newer players. Perhaps a class (as in ranking) or ratio system could help that though.

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The system rewards skill, yes.

Arjue: Since you just said it can't be addressed, then what's the point.

It's very obvious the whole thread is opinionated. I obviously don't think SF is time based enough for my liking. Infact I don't believe it is time based at all, atleast what my idea of time based is. I believe it's more combo driven, which is the core of its gameplay, which I do not like.

When I ask for a video, I get nothing but dead links in return.

Therein lays the problem. It's not about getting 'pwned, l337 doode!", because how can that even be? Since it's my own opinion of a genre at the moment.

So basically, what everybody is telling me is that streetfighter is timing based. Yet to pull off combos you have to do sophisticated combos (well 'sophisticated' as in longer than I'd like), so any timing for a 'reversal' would be void.

If I punch you and am open by your parry, you have no choice but to perform a button tap rather than an obscure combo due to it taking too long and I'd probably be moved away or blocking but then. This is not a timing based system.

Maybe there's timing based elements, such as the parrying an attack, but swiping away someones punch is not a reversal. It is half way between an block and a dodge. You dodged their punch but also blocked it by swiping it away.
A reversal would be, [AGAIN AS I SAID ABOVE], me doing a spin kick and you turning it into a leg lock. You reversed my move, use my momentum and hit is back double time.

A "COUNTER" is when your opponent is doing a kick or something and you counter it by striking or faltering his attack. You countered the attack, meaning it did not take place. If it took place it wouldn't be a counter.

No, Arjue. You're completely wrong about the term reversal in a fighter. A reversal directly correlates with the attack at hand. If you punch me and I grab your arm and flip you over my back, or vice versa, that's a reversal. Simply dodging and attack and striking isn't a reversal, in the fighting sense. You reversed the momentum of the match, overall, but not a move at hand which is what I want in a videogame.

Yes... programming difficult but smart computers is apart of the AI... if DOA 3 is lacking that then ok. But for whatever reason it's not there. Even when I play it with my friends, neither me nor them pull them off in any sort of clear cut way. There's no set path to perform a reversal and comes off as luck of the draw, which isn't so in a realistic fighter, which I want.

Again, everything I want.

Listen to what you said. It's not an indepth fighter... more like a fight simulation! Yeah because we all know fight simulations are so totally lacking depth. How is being totally immersed in a battle through your fighters and your own skill NOT as immersive. According to members above my fighter is flawed, yet my fighter is like the fighters around today that all have the elements I want, plus BUTTON COMBOS!!!!!!!!!

Greeeat. I didn't give up all my strategies for a fighting game, that would be foolish as I am planning to create it. But just because controls are simplified doesn't mean it lacks depth. How does it lack depth? Because you can't do a super kick through a D, D/F, F, Punch attack? I don't think so. It simply makes a better emphasis on attacks and 'reversals'.

Which is my original statement. I want a fighter with no, or few, button combinations (less reliant on it) and more on a reversal system. A solid wish that could be executed well and because of the simplicity of the control a newbie could pull off moves well, instead of having to spend more time memorizing some patterns.


I don't see how having a debate, is bringing you down. You obviously feel envolked to post, as you did two long ones. As for your analogy.

It's incredibly innacurate. How am I the crawler and they are running? Those are two completely different movements. The proper analogy would be a crawling competition, with my friends having a clear knowledge of how to move quickly across the floor without the use of their limbs, and me having no clue, simply shaking wildly and beating them.

THAT is an accurate analogy because the variables are the same.

I am seriously enjoying this thread. Look how many pages it is. What would you rather be doing? Sitting here saying: "I think they should improve the resolution in fighters" reply: "Yeah, because we always want to get better at fighters."

reply to that: "No way, I want my fighters low rez and blinding!

Instead we have a debate about fighting genre as a whole. Actually it isn't. I simply stated I wanted a fighter to evolve in a different direction.

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Originally posted by Masaka
Andrew your ideas are flawed for several reasons. Based off of what you described on page 4, if I were playing that game, I would sit and wait for the other person to do something, because there's less risk involved. Here's how I picture a round of that game going:

ROUND 1: FIGHT!

*sit*
*sit some more*
*move back and forth*
*throw out some whiffing attacks*
*sit*
*sit*

*repeat ad nauseum*

TIME OVAH.

Because of the emphasis you put on reversals and the ability to get around attacks, the risk/reward for attacking is badly skewed. That's one of the problems with CVS2, and why turtling is so prevelent. It's simply easier and more worthwhile to sit, wait and react to what the other person is doing. What you're proposing would be on the same scale, only multiplied by a factor of 10.

Arjue is right, we can't argue your dislike of motions for doing special moves, although I honestly can't understand it. So we'll leave it at that and move on.

Honestly, the idea doesn't sound very interesting to me. A fighting system based heavily on very simple to execute reversals doesn't appeal to me in the slightest. DOA3 which, yes, places a lot of emphasis on reversals, also didn't appeal to me. Playing the computer is not a healthy indication of what is possible (or broken) in a fighting game. Otherwise the CPU in CVS2 would do nothing but pick Cammy/Blanka/Sagat and throw out fierce.

Lastly, you aren't expressing your ideas very well, especially as they apply to current fighting games. I'm not trying to nitpick, but if you're going to debate about the things you don't like currently, you have to be able to express them correctly.

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How would there be little risk involved? A fight is ALL about either waiting for a strike or risking your neck and making a move. Have you ever seen a boxing match or any sort of realistic fighting club? You make me question this after a comment like that.

Your incentive to attack your opponent would be the goal of winning for whatever purpose (I won't get into it). Different scenarios, people, plots, etc. would emphasize this.

But at the core of the gameplay you have a fight at the beginning. Maybe you want to try and surprise your opponent with a totally aggressive style by striking repeatedly with stiff kicks and punches all at the same time. Maybe if you tried this one too many times they'd be expecting it and reverse your punch into a toss, or dodge it into a counter of their own. A simple duck and kick to ribs reversal could put you in serious jeopardy.

You also assumed that there would be a time limit. Why would there be a time limit? In a game like this, a more realistic fighter, the goal isn't to beat the clock it's to win, by the means at your disposal (hand to hand, weapons, environment, outlasting your opponent, endurance wise)

About is being skewed. How? You say so but you don't give an accurate example. There's balance. You can go all out, you can play defensive and each can be more, equal or less rewarding depending on your opponents skill, timing, or just good luck for the round.

I don't dislike special moves. I dislike the button combinations that you have to do to perform them. I realize that SF now has the special meter for momentum so you just can't pull them off whenever, but I don't feel its enough and want something more solidly based around reversals.

I may not be the most articulated person, but my point has obviously gotten across with my original post or we wouldn't be 5 pages deep in this, now, would we?

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Originally posted by Briscobold
I think I posted this before, but my dream for fight games has little to do with the actual intricacies of the fight engine. Rather, I'd prefer a more fulfilling single player experience.

Imagine that instead of having one tournament, you have 11 in different regions of the world. You're invited to one. In order to gain access to new ones you not only have to win other ones, but win them in a spectacular fashion. You'll (literally) be a world warrior, hoping to gain access to the final tournament (the one we usually play from the get go in Street Fighter games).

Battles in specific territories would have announcers spitting in their native toungue and local music blaring through the speakers. Once you beat a tournment, you can unlock the previous champion of said region.

Graphically, I want this bitch to use the same technology as Zelda: Wind Waker. (Not the same artistical style, just the same engine. This way, it'll look like GGXX, or SFIII but can appeal to many because it's 3-D (sorta).

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That seems cool. So it would be 3D in 2D? Like 3D models in a 2D fighting feild? I like the idea of the native tongue and music blaring in the background, alot. It would add alot to atmosphere which is always very good in an epic battle. (i.e. having smoke effects floating through a bar, poorly lit with dirty floors, etc.)

First off, please learn to differentiate between motions and combos. That's part of what I was talking about earlier, and part of why this conversation has gone on for 5 pages.

1) A dragon punch has a motion. It's F, D, DF + Punch.

2) A combination is connecting 2 seperate moves together (2 normal moves, a normal move and a special move, 2 special moves, whatever), so that if you get hit by the first move of the combo, then the rest will also hit you.

I'm going to assume that when you say something along the lines of "I don't like combos" you mean #1.

That being said, on with the show.

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Originally posted by Andrew
Infact I don't believe it is time based at all, atleast what my idea of time based is. I believe it's more combo driven, which is the core of its gameplay, which I do not like.

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Without timing, you couldn't *do* anything in SF, and many other games in the genre. If you can't time the motion for F, D, DF + Punch, you can't do a dragon punch. You wouldn't be able to Parry well. In Guilty Gear, you wouldn't be able to use faultless defense, or Roman Cancel. How do you define timing? For me, in this context, its the ability to perform an action within a given window of opportunity.

Can you explain why you don't like motions? It's cool if you can't. If it's just an opinion, then I'll cheerfully agree to disagree and we can all move on. But if you believe that taking away motions will make the game *more* based on timing, that's seriously flawed.

What takes more timing, hiting a single button within a short window, or performing a somewhat simple motion within that same window? By definition, performing the motion would take more timing.

With regards to reversals, they don't exist in the way that you describe in the world of SF. There's no specific animation of Ken grabbing ryu's leg and flipping him over his shoulder. But he can block the hit of the kick, and perform a move that retaliates against Ryu before he recovers. Functionally, isn't that the same thing?

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So basically, what everybody is telling me is that streetfighter is timing based. Yet to pull off combos you have to do sophisticated combos (well 'sophisticated' as in longer than I'd like), so any timing for a 'reversal' would be void.

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Again, this is part of why this has been going on for 5 pages. How does having to do a motion negate your ability to do reversals?

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If I punch you and am open by your parry, you have no choice but to perform a button tap rather than an obscure combo due to it taking too long and I'd probably be moved away or blocking but then. This is not a timing based system.

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I'm assuming you're talking about the SF side of the world. After a parry, depending on how hard an attack they used, you can retaliate with a single attack (jab, strong, fierce, take your pick) or a combo (duck forward into a fireball). You could even do a super move if your timing is good enough, or you anticipated what your opponent was going to do.

Soooo, how is this not a timing based system? You have to time your parry, time your counter attack, time your motion.

Keep in mind, you don't have to know tons of motions to be great at Street Fighter. I know top players who can barely do fireball motions.

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How would there be little risk involved? A fight is ALL about either waiting for a strike or risking your neck and making a move. Have you ever seen a boxing match or any sort of realistic fighting club? You make me question this after a comment like that.

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You're totally missing my point.

I've been going to various fighting game competitions for several years now, and I've been lucky enough to see these games played at their highest level. That's the perspective that I'm coming from.

What I'm trying to tell you is that the best players try do as little as possible in order to win. You find the strategy/move/combo whatever that minimizes the risk to yourself, while giving you the opporutnity to do damage.

With the system you're proposing, any attack that I throw out is subject to a reversal by them simply hitting a button. I'm better off waiting for them to throw something out and simply countering it. I don't even have to worry about getting thrown, because I can counter the throw too!

Fighting games are made up of checks and balances. In Street Fighter, blocking counters constant offense, throwing counters blocking, etc. In your system, what's the balance for reversals? More reversals? What's the answer to somebody who sits and waits for the other person to attack, constantly looking for reversals? Basing a fighting system around something that is so inherently defensive strikes me as working backwards.

You're looking at this from the standpoint of somebody who's never gone beyond the beginner level in a fighting game (based on what you've said) There's nothing wrong with that, but at higher levels of gameplay, the game changes *significantly*. That's the case with every good fighter that exists. Fighters that don't do this, aren't any good.

Again, I'll state that what you're suggesting doesn't interest me. If I want realistic fighting, I'll go to a hockey game. I prefer fighting games that are somewhat over the top. Keep that in mind.

Did you ever play Pit Fighter? This sounds somewhat like that. And I didn't like that either.

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You also assumed that there would be a time limit. Why would there be a time limit? In a game like this, a more realistic fighter, the goal isn't to beat the clock it's to win, by the means at your disposal (hand to hand, weapons, environment, outlasting your opponent, endurance wise)

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Beat the clock? *boggle*

I assumed there would be a time limit because if there wasn't, I could see these matches lasting forever. You're right though, it would be an test of endurance...to see who can stand the longest at the machine.

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About is being skewed. How? You say so but you don't give an accurate example. There's balance. You can go all out, you can play defensive and each can be more, equal or less rewarding depending on your opponents skill, timing, or just good luck for the round.

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How can I give an accurate example of something that we're talking about theoretically? I've given you my interpretation of what this system that you're suggesting will pan out to be. My interpretation is based off of my experiences with other fighting games, which is pretty extensive. That's about as accurate as I can get in this situation.

It's not a timing based system because the game still revolves more around its button combos, which I will now, for the sake of clarity, call motions.

If you parry an attack in SF the opponent is open for a brief amount of time, meaning you'd have to begin a certain motion before you even jab him, or while you're jabbing him, which is ridiculous because the animations move so fast.

This is what I don't like about the game and hence why it's not timing based and why button combinations are what I do not like about it. I addressed that there is an element of timing, certainly, but it is not at the core of the gameplay like I wish a game would do.

I dislike motions altogether. I've even said I don't like how you have to press up down left right punch to do a certain move. And I never said to take it out of Street Fighter, never did I suggest this. I said I would like a fighting game to evolve into less revolving around 'motions' or button combinations as I call them.

This is all differences of opinion. I never said you were wrong or that the system was wrong. I said I didn't like it and wanted an alternative as I do enjoy the fighting industry.

Functionally, Ryu blocking and then tossing Ken after kicking is the same thing, but it isn't also. A much more intense and enthralled battle would be attempting to get a hit in and battling over this. Imagine a fighter catching the leg, and tossing the opponent, then the opponent countering the throw by landing on his feet, etc. It is a very enthralling system based on integral reversals.

Without the reversals you simply have blocking or dodging hit, like all fighting games. Again, I want something new and an alternative.

As for the high level issue. It's simply not true. If you waited for them to throw a punch and you reversed it, you could be leaving yourself open for a special move or finishing attack. You can reverse, and counter reversals. You choose how you're going to play.

Also there's the chance that the timing will be differed depending on the rate of attack and the player being thrown totally off. They try to reverse and are struck, try to block another punch at a different rate but because they prematurely blocked the first their groove has been thrown off for a couple of free hits, and vice versa.

Having sophisticated moves as the core of the gameplay negates abilities to do reversals because more of the time is spent pressing the actual motion into the controller then trying to spar and keep on top of your opponents style.

You can like arcade style fighters and this applies to them. Instead of a realistic side kick you can simply implement a fury side kick with the guy shadowing into you with his foot on fire, etc. It would still work the same but the button combinations would be simplified for optimum play.

Again, the gameplay based heavily on reversals, timing and not on button combinations.

It wouldn't be a test of endurance. I'm not talking arcades here, I naturally assumed it be a console hence the PS2 control set up. The matches themselves could figuratively last for as long as you can hold out or as long as your opponent can take your beating. It could, however, end in an instant with a lucky critical kick or such.

Bushido Blade is a great example of a fighter, kind of doing what I imagine.

And as for the example. Just because something is in theory doesn't mean you can't give an example of it, accurately. I did so above. Your experience is based off of the same fighting games I want a game to break free from, so therefore you can probably never understand until I make it.

Arjue: I love you. :lol:

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Functionally, Ryu blocking and then tossing Ken after kicking is the same thing, but it isn't also. A much more intense and enthralled battle would be attempting to get a hit in and battling over this. Imagine a fighter catching the leg, and tossing the opponent, then the opponent countering the throw by landing on his feet, etc. It is a very enthralling system based on integral reversals.

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Thank you for explaining that. All you had to say was, "I don't want gameplay in my fighting games, just long animation cycles that revolve around a single button press every couple minutes," and we all would have understood.

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You can reverse, and counter reversals.

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If you can reverse a reversal, you functionally create an infinite loop that won't be broken out of until one player gets bored.

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Having sophisticated moves as the core of the gameplay negates abilities to do reversals because more of the time is spent pressing the actual motion into the controller then trying to spar and keep on top of your opponents style.

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You still have yet to explain how sophisticated moves can be done with nothing but two buttons and no motions.

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Your experience is based off of the same fighting games I want a game to break free from, so therefore you can probably never understand until I make it.

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And if you never understand other games you can't possibly make a game better then them.

This thread really makes me want to order some of those competition videos from Shroryken.com. Are they any good?

SRK doesn't sell competition videos ;)

unless someone else is selling them...or you're referring to the old tournament recordings.

I think tourney.

Dammit, where the hell is my DVD "Bang the Machine"?