Anti War Protesters showing their brains...

Groovy, all fell for my bait.

Thanks guys for not letting me down, its apreciated.

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Originally posted by Stone
Are you surprised? That sort of shit is at the heart of most of Almaci's brand of protester, and it's what Europe is full of.

Makes me glad that all of their protesting/complaining/whatever is going to amount to jack shit - remember this, Almaci:

You can't do anything.

We're going to war, we're going to win, US-style Democracy will be the world's dominant style of government, Israel isn't going anywhere, and Old Europe is going to become progressively more useless. Suck it up and deal with it.

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Nope US style democracy wont be the worlds main form of democracy, the US is doing everything it possibly can to stop that from becoming a reality.
In fact the majority of people in Europe(and majority of government styles, including that of Israel) have an entire different sort of democracy wich actually has a system of checks and balances and an intricate form of coalition forming wich prohibits a swing minority from gaining too much political power(like the New york Jews or the florida cuban americans for instance, if you hold the swing vote the government will pander for you becouse those few votes will make the difference, screw the few million republican votes in California, its those few thousand swing Cuban Americans we need in Florida, democracy my ass).
In a perfect world there would be countries taking care of theyre personal busuines and an enforced UN making sure countries dont cheat on eachother and with every country represented.

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Originally posted by diffusionx
Wow. So there you go. This is the heart of Almaci... well, its ironic that he showed his brains in this thread of all threads.

Almaci, you are shameful.

Stone is perfectly correct and states it so eloquently, as is his habit. An Ivy League education can do that to a person, I guess.

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Tell me did I state anything antisemetic?
I asked if the guys name was Weinstein, as it happens rabbi Weinstein has written several books on the subject and not all of them one sided and unashamdely biased towards the zionist side.

Really guys, youre so easy to bait, so easy to mislead and dont provide any counterargument to the countles of sources i quoted in this and other threads.
You all just wait for one thing you perceive as bias or a mistake on my part to pounce on to me like a pack of hungry rats in the vain hopes that having a go at me at one point will nulify all the other irrefutable ones I made.

whatever helps you trough the night people.

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Originally posted by frostwolf
almeci gets +10 anti-semitism points. really, that was one of the most fucked up posts i have seen from you, and thats against pretty stiff comptition.

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Yes man, I love you too

Oh and my bad, the name is Wein, not Weinstein.

Heh,

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And dont kid yourself about total freedom for Israeli Arabs, they live in a state of apartheid with theyre political parties being banned and gag orders being placed upon them for daring to state that Israel should leave the teritories and no tax money should be given to reward hard line Zionists who are abusing Palestines OUTSIDE of Israel while right wing Zionist parties are left free to incite hatred and calls for anti Arab terrorism.

As for sanctions, Israel is in material breach of 64 UN resolutions, never signed the nuclear non proliferation treaty and has used US money and weapons to terrorise Pelestines for over 5 decades yet the US gives em several billions of dollars each year and veto´s every resolution by the UN condemning Israel for its actions yet when france threatens to use a single veto against the war in Iraq

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This is representative of your broad, bullshit claims - and you think that single, isolated incidences you've culled from a couple of newspapers then provide you irrefutable evidence? My ass. Your comments in the other, related, thread on this board right now are even worse.

Let me try to illustrate something for you Almaci - first, you're coming up with incidents of Israeli brutality or whatever. I don't think anyone is denying that sometimes settlers can be asses, sometimes single Israelis do brutal or nasty things, so on. However, you're using those incidents as evidence for near-unrelated, much, much, much broader, idiotic claims (like this one):

(This is spacecowboy, by the way, but you're speaking along the same lines).

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However, the Arabs didn't want it that way so they went to war and the Israelis decided to take more than they were given while Egypt took the Gaza Strip and Jordan took Jerusalem and the West Bank. So the Palestinians were forced to flee from Israel and live in squatter settlements hoping one day to be able to return to THEIR home

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Like-minded people reduce the Arab world attacking Israel on the day it's created, Israel defeating the entire Arab world, and then Israel taking part of the previously defined Palestinian zone to use as a buffer in order to ward off further attacks, to "The Arabs didn't want it that way...and the Israelis took more than they were given".

Do you know how fucking stupid that is? It's not that they didn't "want it that way" - they started a fucking war, one that they lost. That's their problem. The Palestinians/Arabs started this shit by attacking way back then...and since then, instead of apologizing and trying to reinitiate peace to make up for the problems started by THEIR ATTACK, they've kept up fifty years of terrorism.

Everything Israel has done has been a response to the Palestinian doctrine that a country Israel should not and will not exist on that land. That's the doctrine they were following when they atatcked on the day of Israel's inception, with every terrorist attack on Israeli civilians, with every war they've lost since then, and so on.

The settlements are a sad product of all this.

Also: despite your shit claims of apartheid and what, in general, Israeli Arabs have more free democratic rights than Arabs living anywhere in the Arab World. Find a counterexample.

I'f you're talking about the book I mentioned (I thought it was the other thread though) - no, the book isn't even written by a man. All I can remember at the moment was the author was a lady on her way to make a detailed history and documentry of the atrocities Isreal put on Palestine. So, of course she already had her own political motive...until she found out that the history of conflict isn't as one-sided as you'd think, and Palestine hasn't been as 'bullied' as you imply.

Her book and words - not mine. Now if I could only find the title again. I'll give it a go at work this week.

Tell me how are my claims bulshit when I link to right wing Israeli media where the newspaper itself is talking about those incidents as not only isolated but as actually tolerated by israeli police and army, and confirmation that these are not one of events but things that have been going on for years.
How can you say my claims are bulshit when Israeli media itself admits it happens constantly and that the brutality of settlers who are living on land stolen from Palestines is endles and institutionalised.
How can you say my claims are bulshit when I actually ask you guys yourself to go and check out the stories from the region to better inform yourselfs, thats right I actually ask you to go find and read stories yourself so that you can make youre own oppinion as to what goes on there instead of judging by a snapshot posteed by me.
Im not asking you to believe me unconditionaly, im not attacking you as a person, no im challenging you to check things out yourself and be better informed, yet when I do that im the one who is talking bulshit?

I sugest you check up on the things uttered in the knesset by israeli lawmakers.
Or even its prime minister.

stuff like this:“I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do. (Ariel Sharon, current Prime Minister, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956)

Or this" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." (Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982)

Or this: David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" (Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121)

And countles more.

And I agree, many Arab countries have a pitiful record concerning democracy.
But that for a large part too is the fault of foreign influences.
Pakistan now is under the rule of a military dictator called Musharef, Pakistan had a democracy(in fact long before any western state did that)where a WOMAN was directly elected by the people.
Can you even imagine a woman being elected president in the US?
Iran had a democracy before the bloody coup of the Shah al those decades ago, a coup sponosred by the US I might add becouse the DEMOCRATICALY elected government was not to the liking of the US.
In Algeria there is a Western suported dictatorship becouse the West didnt like the fact that a Muslim party won the elections etcetera etcetera.
The march to democracy of a lot of those countries was actually halted by the west becouse the west didnt like the leaders they chose, and most Arab states had dictatorships placed in them that were friendly to the West after the brits left the area.

What you are doing my friend is rascism as well, youre placing the onus entirely on the region and the people living there while historicaly the US and europe are as guilty for the situation there as anyone else.

Fact remains, I asked him if the guy was called wein(my bad not Weinstein) since Rabbi Wein has written a lot on the subject, somethings even with wich I agree.
So again what makes me an anti semite?

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Originally posted by Hero
I'f you're talking about the book I mentioned (I thought it was the other thread though) - no, the book isn't even written by a man. All I can remember at the moment was the author was a lady on her way to make a detailed history and documentry of the atrocities Isreal put on Palestine. So, of course she already had her own political motive...until she found out that the history of conflict isn't as one-sided as you'd think, and Palestine hasn't been as 'bullied' as you imply.

Her book and words - not mine. Now if I could only find the title again. I'll give it a go at work this week.

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Yes please, im always intrested in both sides of the story.
And im always intrested in more vieuwpoints, the more you know the better one can judge.
And my oppinion of something is never ethed in stone and can and will evolve over time, as should be the case.

Muhammed Ali(the boxer) once said if you are the same person at 50 that you were when you were 20 years old you have wasted 30 years of youre life.
I agree with that wholeheartidly.

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And my oppinion of something is never ethed in stone and can and will evolve over time, as should be the case.

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That's all I wanted to hear. ^^

As for all those quotes, I know it's rather anal, but got any audio of those speeches or direct links to those quotes from reputable sites?

Like I said before, I hand info and I urge you al to go digging for things yourself, dont take my word for it and I dont want to do everything for you, do some research, find some sources wich you yourself feel are credible instead of just the ones I provide(altough I always do my best to underscore my sentiment with the US own media or media from the side I disagree with etcetera)
In the end tough, get involved, inform yourself, I hand you snippets, go find the full story yourself and get a better understanding.
BE INFORMED.

Okay, but what if I can't find it?

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Originally posted by Almaci
I don't know something called International Principles. I vow that I'll burn every Palestinian child (that) will be born in this area. The Palestinian woman and child is more dangerous than the man, because the Palestinian childs existence infers that generations will go on, but the man causes limited danger. I vow that if I was just an Israeli civilian and I met a Palestinian I would burn him and I would make him suffer before killing him. With one hit I've killed 750 Palestinians (in Rafah in 1956). I wanted to encourage my soldiers by raping Arabic girls as the Palestinian women is a slave for Jews, and we do whatever we want to her and nobody tells us what we shall do but we tell others what they shall do. (Ariel Sharon, current Prime Minister, In an interview with General Ouze Merham, 1956)

Or this" [The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs."(Menahim Begin, speech to the Knesset, quoted in Amnon Kapeliouk, "Begin and the Beasts". New Statesman, 25 June 1982)

Or this: David Ben Gurion (the first Israeli Prime Minister): "If I were an Arab leader, I would never sign an agreement with Israel. It is normal; we have taken their country. It is true God promised it to us, but how could that interest them? Our God is not theirs. There has been Anti-Semitism, the Nazis, Hitler, Auschwitz, but was that their fault ? They see but one thing: we have come and we have stolen their country. Why would they accept that?" (Quoted by Nahum Goldmann in Le Paraddoxe Juif (The Jewish Paradox), pp121)

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So, what, you're saying you can produce anti-Palestinian quotes found only in inarguably anti-Zionist/anti-Jew books and newsarticles? None of these quotes are directly from source material - they're all ones that have been passed around as chestnuts for anti-semites for years upon years. Why aren't any of these quotes found on defensible sites?

Like, look - your quote "[The Palestinians are] beasts walking on two legs." (Menahim Begin)" evidently comes from a source called "Begin and the Beasts". Isn't that the same thing as me giving you this quote: ""I love little children." (Almaci)" and telling you the source was an article called "Almaci Saying He Loves Little Children", Z Magazine February 30 1976?

Find something like that in a book I can go take out of my school's library, or read off of microfiche, and then maybe we can talk.

Until then, it makes sense that we continue to assume that you're just going to Miftah.org and copying the day's tripe that they've said has been quoted verbatim.

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Originally posted by Almaci
BE INFORMED

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You go to anti-zionist/anti-semitic web sites and read what you want to hear, and you think that makes you informed?

Being informed means reading reputable websites - for a few closer to your viewpoint, think NY Times, hell, maybe even the Guardian, whatever. Daily Mirror and Le Monde are NY Post level. Read those, find quotes there, and maybe I'll start listening.

Now, of course, the inevitable reply:

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Will probably be posted by Almaci
NY Times the Guardiann yo those sites are all part of the Jewish money US Bush family war for oil Cuban Republican colonialist racist oppressor media lobby!! the only way you can get really informed is by reading the souces like ive posted

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Which is fundamentally the same argument that most ultra-left-wing people make when it comes to situations like this. The media sources with real journalists won't give the protesters the information they need, so they rely on the bullshit hacks who are willing to make things up. Have fun.

IC again you sidestep all the points I make never replying to the questions I pose you and instead attack me as a person yet again.

Then of course we have this here:Will probably be posted by Almaci
NY Times the Guardiann yo those sites are all part of the Jewish money US Bush family war for oil Cuban Republican colonialist racist oppressor media lobby!! the only way you can get really informed is by reading the souces like ive posted

Where have I EVER dismissed something on the basis of the source alone?
I dare you to find a post of mine where I did that, go ahead I dare you.
Even more, its something used against me on these threads and despite that I have never even once considered doing something like that.
Dont you dare claim to know what I think or how I feel or indeed what I would post in any given situation.
You shoot yourself in the foot yet again and yet again instead of admitting you fell for my trap like the other ones and yet again instead of actually trying to retort a thing I say you go into ridicule and character assasination mode.
Demonise me al you want, it wont change the simple fact that you havent brought annything of substance to the discuision, au contraire my friend, youre posts have consisted of baseles attacks against me personaly.
If that isnt a sign of insecurity and a sign of a lack of moral standing ground against me I dont know what is.

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Originally posted by Almaci
IC again you sidestep all the points I make never replying to the questions I pose you and instead attack me as a person yet again.
Where have I EVER dismissed something on the basis of the source alone?
I dare you to find a post of mine where I did that, go ahead I dare you.
Even more, its something used against me on these threads and despite that I have never even once considered doing something like that.
Dont you dare claim to know what I think or how I feel or indeed what I would post in any given situation.
You shoot yourself in the foot yet again and yet again instead of admitting you fell for my trap like the other ones and yet again instead of actually trying to retort a thing I say you go into ridicule and character assasination mode.
Demonise me al you want, it wont change the simple fact that you havent brought annything of substance to the discuision, au contraire my friend, youre posts have consisted of baseles attacks against me personaly.
If that isnt a sign of insecurity and a sign of a lack of moral standing ground against me I dont know what is.

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Heh, I'm not accusing you of dismissing "something based on the source alone". That's what I'm doing, because your sources are pretty obviously worthless. I've said that your response to my accusation will probably involve calling mainstream (or "valid") media sources biased.

Not surprisingly instead of even making that response, you've simply decided to spew a couple of run-on-sentences, blathering about character assassination, lack of moral standing ground, heh, whatever.

If you're more comfortable pretending that we're the ones circumventing the issue, then you're welcome to continue doing so. I've got no real stake in convincing you or anyone else along your lines...you do a good enough job marginalizing yourselves that my doing so is just a waste of time.