Anti War Protesters showing their brains...

I'm not going to debate this anymore. There are those that will believe grass is actually orange if they are socialized that way. I commend Hero on being one of the few dissenters who doesn't have to resort to "that's stupid" comments when trying to refute opposing arguments. Stone is obviously one of the biggest bullshit artist I have ever had the displeasure of reading. The path I have taken to my education is different from anyone elses and I try to respect the fact that people will have opposing viewpoints. Time can only tell what will happen to this world. My only point is this: Things are not well in the world, especially in the U.S. Change needs to happen. While people like Stone and Carter are still typing responses on a message board, others, myself included, will be trying to progress our society for the better. I'll conclude this with some advice that you can take from it what you want. Educate yourselves, in whatever way possible. Read books, stay abreast of current events, and try to gain some world perspective through first-hand account. I'm not saying everyone will see things the way I see them, but at least you'll have experience and knowledge to back up your ideas. And above all, try to listen to other viewpoints with a relative frame of mind. Perhaps someone has an idea you like. Perhaps you can teach something to someone else. But don't insult them with that's stupid and whatever. I'm guilty of this on occassion. A good example of someone who I constantly disagree with is Chief Justice Rehnquist. He his highly conservative and I really can't find a lot of sense in some of his ideas. But I respect him because he is extremely knowledgeable and does know what he is talking about. So try to be a little more courteous, even if you are sitting behind a computer where no one can see face to face.

SC

PS
I have an alternative to war with Iraq. No war with Iraq.

I'd like to know, hypothetically, how far are you willing to have a no war policy, even if there's a threat that will not listen to talk? Until millions of your followers, countrymen, what have you, are dead? Until the threat has an imediate impact on your country? Or does it take as far as when you see the violence of inaction in your own front door?

Again, hypothetical.

And don't diss Stone. You may not agree, but he brings down what he knows with force. Few people care to do as much.

I also think there's a problem in the US. The problem of being self-loathing, lacking national idenity, being victims instead of responsible for action, wanting to given everything instead of valuing hard work, and following collectivists to a tee. You see, indivdual freedom is a nice term for people to wave around, but also means the freedom and possibilty of screwing up and having no Big Brother to turn to. Not to mention that if you're a Canadian and proud to be one, that's cool (and I agree); same with French, German, English, Russian, et al. But an American who's proud to be an American obviously has some screws loose - that's a lack of national identity. Not like you MUST CONFORM to a uniform standard, but when you're ashamed of where you live and even siding with the mentality that, on the extreme, would have you dead no matter how much you agree? That's the problem I see.

But hey, if there was a way to make Saddam take a time out, where he sat and thought about what he's done, and comes back totally apologetic, I'm all for it. I'd like to know how we'd get that going...

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Originally posted by burgundy
U.S. vs. Islam.

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I wish...

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Originally posted by Almaci
Man you never cease to amaze me, here we go again.
Ridicule.
Ridicule the opponent to nulify any and al points he/she makes.
Youre very good at that, much better then at actualy debating a case brought before you.

You started calling me a tool of Arafat, you guys called me an anti semite, you have Jewish bussuinesfriends?
Good for you so do I, whenever im in NYc I try to go to as many Jewish deli´s as possible(hey I know the meat will be Kosher and as a Muslim thats important for me and becouse the food tastes so damn good) then you continue ridiculing me as a person and further the character assasination started in other threads while still not directly replying to all the points I made.
Oh and I have been in the region.

Its saddening to see so much hatred and opposition towards viewpoints that do not match youre owns.

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Translation = "I'm not an anti-semite, some of my best friends are jews."

Yeah, OK.

Hey, Stone used it to lend credence to his claims, why cant I ?

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The problem of being self-loathing, lacking national idenity, being victims instead of responsible for action, wanting to given everything instead of valuing hard work, and following collectivists to a tee. You see, indivdual freedom is a nice term for people to wave around, but also means the freedom and possibilty of screwing up and having no Big Brother to turn to.

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you recite this by rote now? Anyways I hear of people that are arbitrarily proud, recognize the American can-do spirit and hold their freedoms in the highest regard. hey, the polls are still saying that the majority of the people support Bush/the war right? I think people tend to notice what they disagree with more than what they find acceptable. Sort of like when the news was focusing on the various school shootings leading people to think that the schools were erupting with newfound violence, when, in reality, there were less killings than the previous years.

As for war. I don't like the way it is carried out. Justification for it doesn't matter as I'm concerned with how they perform their "justified work" and not why they're doing it. The fact that people that take up the responsibility of going to war intentionally sacrafice innocent people that did not wish to take part in the fight to preserve themselves is wrong(the soldiers do it to preserve themselves, to be clear). As futility plays a role in this for me, all I can say on the topic is that I hope that diffusionX was right and that there isn't a huge civ. casualty count at the end of it all. =\

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Originally posted by spacecowboy
The path I have taken to my education is different from anyone elses and I try to respect the fact that people will have opposing viewpoints....myself included, will be trying to progress our society for the better...Educate yourselves, in whatever way possible...but at least you'll have experience and knowledge to back up your ideas...But don't insult them with that's stupid and whatever.

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Alright. Take that statement by spacecowboy. Then, compare it with another statement spacecowboy made in this thread:

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Originally posted by spacecowboy
However, the Arabs didn't want it that way so they went to war and the Israelis decided to take more than they were given while Egypt took the Gaza Strip and Jordan took Jerusalem and the West Bank. So the Palestinians were forced to flee from Israel and live in squatter settlements hoping one day to be able to return to THEIR home.

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The above is spacecowboy's version of this REALITY:

1.) Two territories being created: one Israel, one Palestine.
2.) Israel comes into existence on 14 May 1948.
3.) Jordan, Egypt, Lebanon, Syria and Iraq attack Israel on 14 May 1948.
4.) Israel repulses the invasion, and takes land to increase its buffer between itself and the rest of the Arab world - THAT HAD JUST ATTACKED IT.
5.) At the same time, Egypt took the Gaza Strip and Jordan took the West Bank - about 25% of the TOTAL AREA of what was Israel and Palestine combined.

(Just for clarification, initially the land split was about 52% Israel 48% Palestine. Egypt and Jordan took 25% of the combined area - which leaves 23% Palestine. Egypt and Jordan took more land from Palestine as a result of the lost war than Israel did in an effort to protect itself.)

Now, I'd quote a source, but why should I? For the most part, this is history, well-known history. As for the percentages, find them here(an anti-colonialist history of British Palestine by the BBC). Do you quote sources when you tell someone that the Constitution was signed in 1787?

If spacecowboy wanted to find various instances of small groups of Israelis acting brutally, and use that to justify the FACT that the Arab world assaulted Israel, then maybe I would've been a bit more polite, less dismissive, whatever. If Spacecowboy had come up with an array of historical instances where just-invaded countries return land they had taken in a purely defensive action, then maybe I would've been less dismissive. If Spacecowboy had perhaps maybe intimated some sort of responsibility for the Arab world attacking Israel, and hadn't paraphrased the action with "didn't want it that way", then maybe I would've been less dismissive.

In this guy's mind, "they didn't want it that way" is enough to justify war, and yet, the responsibility for that war ends immediately afterwards - the Arabs lost, oh well, why did the Israelis have to be such jerks afterwards?

So, yeah, I've been dismissive, and yeah, I've been a dick. How would you treat someone who said: "2+2 = 5" and then in the same breath told you to "go read some math books and educate yourself"? If he provided quotes like:

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"2+2 really does equal 5." The Why Conventional Math Is Wrong Journal, September 31 1980

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And then complained of "character assassination" when you dismiss those quotes out of hand?

I've had polite, solid discussions with people who've actually studied the history of the land. I'm entirely willing to admit that particular Israelis have done all sorts of nasty, terrible things to Palestinians and to even to each other - hell, an Israeli killed Rabin.

However, I'm not willing to play along, equivocate, whatever, when your beliefs are based on obviously illusory, imaginary "historical" events. So, I'm going to be dismissive, and being more politely dismissive would've been less entertaining and less effective.

Stone, you are my right-wing hero.
See, the thing I can't stand is when people enter debate over political matters without any evidence to back up their claims. I get into this with a friend of mine all the time. He claims that the US is now "the most evil country in the world." Now, I admit, while the US isn't Jesus Christ: The Landmass, it's not quite as bad as many places, especially Hussein-land. He is, alas, another who uses the "OMG! WAR FOR OILZ0RZ!!!11" argument.
Now, I can't stand arguments about these things. Why? I can't argue them. I'll admit right now, I don't have the time to look up sources or to back up my claims. I know I'm right, that's good enough for me, but at least I can say honestly that I know when I can't hold it up. Bill O'Reilly can, being that it's his career. If you've ever seen The Factor, you'll realize that, ignoring the fact that his ego is probably big enough to feed a small Mexican villiage, he does not make any opinion without backing it up with some evidence to support his claim. Does he do all the research himself? Hell no. But he knows he needs it, and he gets it.
My theology teacher in high school had to be the smartest man who had ever stepped foot in the building. He had one statement that he made that has stood out in my way of thinking quite a bit since I've graduated: "Your opinion is only as good as the evidence you have to back it up." I stand by that statement, and encourage spacecowboy and Almaci to find some. Why? Political debate is interesting. Flame wars are not.
...and to Stone, JimmyCarter, LHaddat et al: Preach on, guys.

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Originally posted by ChaoofNee
I stand by that statement, and encourage spacecowboy and Almaci to find some. Why? Political debate is interesting. Flame wars are not.
...and to Stone, JimmyCarter, LHaddat et al: Preach on, guys.

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Thanks! That's exactly why I haven't responded to alot of stuff in the two debate threads -- despite not being interested in arguing certain points, I left alone others that I don't have anything to back up my positions with. It's silly to spew rhetoric and spin as fact, and almaci's and spaceboy's dedication to such is pretty much why Carter (and I think a couple others) aren't responding in these threads anymore.

/me waits for Almaci-flame-retort...

Hey Stone if you want to really debate, pick a time and we'll go to a chat room. I stand by what I said. I think I backed up the majority of my statements with fact. Just because you refuse to admit it is not my problem. I don't condone what Palestinians do to Israelis but then again, I can't condone what Israelis do to Arabs either. So Stone if you want to debate, let me know and I'll gather my sources and we can have a chat on the subject.

SC