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Now, before I start getting razzed for even bringing up the subject, let me explain. I've searched and can't seem to find a place to INTELLIGENTLY discuss emulation. Something I know is frowned upon on this message board. Does anybody have any links where people could get an honest answer to questions and where it isn't just a bunch of retards asking for roms?
Since when is intelligent discussion frowned upon here?
We don't discuss where to find roms...everyone that's been a regular here knows better than that.
If you want to discuss what you think about it is one thing. Asking people "hey...where can I find the latest SNES emulator." is a no-no and we'll ban your account on site if that's what you're looking for.
/me hits you over the head.
First of all, I've been a regular for a while, I'm just not that much of a poster. I'm pretty familiar with the rules and such. There's no need to threaten to ban me.
The problem is that this discussion would include such things like which translation patch is the best and technical issues with said emulators, etc. I've seen people's posts edited before so I was just wondering where I could go without worrying if I'm crossing that line, that's all. Besides, it's not that hard to find the latest "whatever".
this is my opinion on emulation
if a game and system are completely out of production then i say emulate it to your hearts content
paying some guy who got lucky and actually bought a copy of Radiant Silvergun when it was 10 bucks 200 bucks doesnt help sega or treasure in the same way if you dled and emulated the game wouldnt hurt or help sega or treasure it would only hurt the guys on ebay and maybe drop the cost for the game (finally it needs to )
now games that are still being made if a game is a recent release i say its a no no (even recent neo geo games are a no no)
now im not saying that any of it is legal in anyway its just how i fell personally
IMHO buying used copies of a current generation game thats still being made is just as bad as downloading it, why because the developer doesnt get any money when you buy used and they dont get any money when you Download it
Personally i prefer to have the original
when i went to college i didnt want to bring my older systems with me i had my N64 and my PSX with me but i didnt feel like bringing along my SNES, NES and their games those are alot harder to replace incase something happens, anyway i downloaded alot of SNES and NES games and played them on my PC and while it let me play those games it wasnt the same as getting to play a real SNES on a TV, and id never replace real systems with emulators
to me its a way to play those older games when you dont have access to them
just my thoughts on the whole emulation thing
/me hums the theme to Metroid Fusion.Quote:
Originally posted by Shin Johnpv
now games that are still being made if a game is a recent release i say its a no no (even recent neo geo games are a no no)
:lol:
QUIET YOU!!!!Quote:
Originally posted by Regus
* Regus hums the theme to Metroid Fusion.
:lol:
i bought that game so it doesnt matter :P
;) i meant more people who dl them and then never buy them :P
:sweat:
LOOK AT THE CHICKEN :chick:
/me knocks over regus and runs
oh man...the chicken!!! :chick:
...and Gecco, I know you're a regular.
/me hums a song from Harmony of Dissonance.Quote:
Originally posted by Shin Johnpv
QUIET YOU!!!!
i bought that game so it doesnt matter :P
;) i meant more people who dl them and then never buy them :P
:sweat:
LOOK AT THE CHICKEN :chick:
* Shin Johnpv knocks over regus and runs
I see no real problem with emulation as long as the creator of the game/system doesn't mind it.
lol... C'mon John... just admit it... we all know you're just a damned dirty pirate. :pQuote:
Originally posted by Shin Johnpv
QUIET YOU!!!!
i bought that game so it doesnt matter :P
;) i meant more people who dl them and then never buy them :P
:sweat:
LOOK AT THE CHICKEN :chick:
* Shin Johnpv knocks over regus and runs
maybe with GBA games but only with ones i plan on buying Japan just gets them so much sooner ;)Quote:
Originally posted by bbobb
lol... C'mon John... just admit it... we all know you're just a damned dirty pirate. :p
but every GBA game ive played early on emu i did buy so *shrug*
now look at the god damn chicken
:chick: !!!!!!
/me knocks over bbobb grabs his treasure collection and runs
I have to say that while I understand why Emulation is ilegal (because it takes money away from teh developers and it breaks copy ight and trade mark laws...) but I feel that there comes a time when a game is so old, so valueless, so hard to sell that allowing other people to give it away isn't a bad financial discission, its just a moral discission...
Take Mario Bros. for example, the original cart sells for about a dime at my local Gamestop... so if in theory I got a rom instead of buying the cart would I really be hurtin' anyone? probably not.
Personally I hope there comes a day when emulators and roms are availale freely. I mean there could be laws that state a game must be ten years old before it can be emulated and that would be just fine... or even make a small charge for downloading games...
oh... and just so I don't get banned I would like to point out that I do not curently support emulation nor do I know where toget roms or emulators or the such... I don't want to know either... so dont tell me...
Not buying the game at a local Gamestop, and choosing to emulate it instead hurts the retailer.
Yes but as I stated I'm tlking about games that cost about a dime... My shop is useually short about two bucks a day, and that's normal... so I doubt ten cents (or anything around there) is going to hurt anyone...
If it's only a dime, why not just buy the real deal?
Well I don't know, maybe you dont have an NES, and you can't find one either... hmm
personally, I don't mind the emulation scene becuase it does us a favor of bringing back classics and games that were never brought to the states. There's plenty of different systems that are no longer making a profit on the market and that's where emulation falls into the "safe" area. The only way you'll have the ISDA banging down the door is if the game being distributed is currently on the market (i.e. still making a profit on the company's profit forcast) or if it has any form of copyright infringement. (hence AVP being hard to find :sweat: )
Take my advice, only worry about the games that the developers are no-longer concerned about and if you do get anything that's current, you sure as hell better be holding the original or you're harming the industry.
oh yeah...
:noob: c'mere ya lil' pecker!!! :chick:
:D
10 years would be quite awhile to wait. As long as there no money to be made (like 5+ years after release), it'll fall into the "grey area" where it'll be likely safe unless it starts to sell again or if it falls onto copyright issues. :sweat:Quote:
Originally posted by Box Drink
Personally I hope there comes a day when emulators and roms are availale freely. I mean there could be laws that state a game must be ten years old before it can be emulated and that would be just fine... or even make a small charge for downloading games...
I'm overstepping my bounds so I'll end this here.
Sometimes the real deal is too hard to find even though its only ten cents.
If its available and cheap, get to buyin' then.
If its cheap, but obscure, then its not hurtinanybody to download.
Hell, If I wanna put the fear of god into children, I shouldent have to hunt down some old store of horrible occult objects to find Shaq Fu. I should be able to download it for free. Its not like peole should actualy break their neck lookin for it.
Gecco, I openly and intelligently discuss emulation. I've even looked at the source code of some of the emulators and know about the various issues being discussed by the emu writers. I'm pretty sure that no one is going to ban me if I said that I played 1944 on Mame and then relayed my opinions on the game on this forum. The game sux btw, I understand Chibi completely now.
People should understand that there's a difference between discussing the content of games and discussing methods of obtaining them. That being said, I think there should be more topics on emulated games here. Not all of us can get Saturn imports and some of us want arcade quality and net-play. I know that many people here like to discuss shooters from the mid to late 90's, most of them were never ported to any home system, and are only available in Japan.
Most people here play the emulated games but are reluctant to talk about them, because every time an intelligent discussion starts the do-gooders and l33t collectors here start turning up their noses and posting anti-emulation ethics, thus digressing the discussion from the subject. Even though most of them openly admit to downloading music and other copyrighted content. This doesn't happen all the time, but it happens often enough. I for one am willing to defend my views and opinions. Discussing games and emulators which play them is OK in my book. Let people philosiphize all they want, but let's not turn every discussion into a flame war about the legality of emulation.
seen
My personal opinion is emulation is probably one of these lesser evils.
Is it illegal ? Sure, by the word of the law. But seriously, at this point, every copy of an old cart has been accounted for by the publisher without further copies being made available. Any emulation of old roms you download doesn't hurt the publisher in anyway.
Furthermore, emulators are just that. They 'emulate', not recreate, the experience of these games. Sure, it's nice to have a SNES game on the PC, but it's not quite the same when it's impossible to have your friends huddle around the TV with a multitap, for instance.
The problem with 'new' emulators is evident. I mean, I know there are plenty of emulators in progress for the newer systems. But quite frankly, the sys reqs to run them and their lack of stability undermine whatever experience you do gain from emulating them.
This is opposed to much, much more blatant piracy such as software piracy, music and movie piracy and so forth. These hurt the publishers bottom line directly and especially with music, can be used to directly make copies of a CD that is essentially replacing a legit copy.
Basically, emulation of older games is kind of like the abadonware concept. I'd group it with the gray area of legality, kind of like fansubs of anime. Emulation of newer games, well, that's just piracy I guess.
I can tell you this If i could ever get my router to work right id be on Kawaks with Street Fighter Alpha 2 all day long playing against people
Emulators make very old games internet enabled. :D It's all good.
they make some games that were supposed to be internet enabled online as well, just ask SFA3! :D
I suggest the following rules:
Change the wording around a bit so people don't get upset.
Start calling roms, games.
Instead of saying emulator, name a specific one like Mame, Nebula, Modeler... etc.
By virtue of indirect logic the reader of the post should assume that you're playing a said game on an emulator without explicitly being told so. Some of us already do this. Shin Johnpv above me just did that.
You can get pretty good answers at retrogames.com
If you're on the General Gaming board at Xengamers, you're free to discuss it as well.
God help us if they work 4 player support into GENS. It will be Yu Yu Hakusho time.Quote:
Originally posted by Shin Johnpv
I can tell you this If i could ever get my router to work right id be on Kawaks with Street Fighter Alpha 2 all day long playing against people
Finally, an answer!! Thank you Frogacuda. I was just looking for another board that was "emu friendly" and didn't really mean to start a big conversation on the topic. Oh well, good discussion is being had so I'm happy.
God I love emulation! I do 100% arcade stuff, oddly enough, no SNES or Genesis stuff for me. Nothing against it, I've got a good collection of stuff on my PC, but it's the arcade stuff that really shines for me somehow. I'd never have gotten to play Esprade or gotten back Strikers 45 after my arcade got rid of it without emulation.
I should mention here that I bought Psikyo's Sol Divide even after emulating it. Does that absolve me of any perceived wrongdoing? :)
Now I just need a slightly faster PC so I can do Strikers 45 II properly...
James
oh my god are you fucking serious... do you not get the point that your not supposed to talk about using that kind of thing...Quote:
Originally posted by James
God I love emulation! I do 100% arcade stuff, oddly enough, no SNES or Genesis stuff for me. Nothing against it, I've got a good collection of stuff on my PC, but it's the arcade stuff that really shines for me somehow. I'd never have gotten to play Esprade or gotten back Strikers 45 after my arcade got rid of it without emulation.
I should mention here that I bought Psikyo's Sol Divide even after emulating it. Does that absolve me of any perceived wrongdoing? :)
Now I just need a slightly faster PC so I can do Strikers 45 II properly...
James
meh.Quote:
Originally posted by Box Drink
oh my god are you fucking serious... do you not get the point that your not supposed to talk about using that kind of thing...
I believe the same thing Shinjohnpv does: if you can't find it, if the company can't make any money of it, if it's super old, go ahead. But if the reverse of any of the three conditions apply then no.
Plus, I do it to preserve the condition of the shit I own. (I'm one of those guys that likes to have the hard-copy before I emulate.)
Why the fuck not? He is not talking about how he will get these games, all he says is that he wants to play them on a faster computer. And I totally understand him as Strikers 1945 makes heavy use of alpha blending effects, which are difficult to emulate, along with hardware rotation.Quote:
Originally posted by Box Drink
oh my god are you fucking serious... do you not get the point that your not supposed to talk about using that kind of thing...
James: What I suggest is first looking into getting yourself a faster video card with a lot of VRAM and tell the emu to allocate the buffers in Video memory instead of System memory, as that might solve the problem since all emulators use DirectX acceleration anyway.
Quote:
Originally posted by Gecco
Now, before I start getting razzed for even bringing up the subject, let me explain. I've searched and can't seem to find a place to INTELLIGENTLY discuss emulation. Something I know is frowned upon on this message board. Does anybody have any links where people could get an honest answer to questions and where it isn't just a bunch of retards asking for roms?
Once again, I offer #retrogamers on EFNet, since a lot of emulator coders and site ops are in there. (Just watch out for certain Canadian and German kick-happy ops. :D )
As far as the age of games emulated, there is an (unwritten) rule on the MAMEDev team that any drivers of games submitted to the project must be 3 years old or older. I'm sure the ethics of that can be argued for years to come, but I'm pretty sure lots of people in here have seen year 2000 games in arcades still making money.
Also to the poster that mentioned getting a faster CPU, that would help, but the thing is that MAME simply isn't coded efficiently. It actually has gotten steadily slower over the last year or two, and some of the recent games require a > 2GHZ CPU to run at a playable framerate (with sound), and the games themselves only had sub 30MHZ processors. In the late 90's, there was a group that was coding an alternative to MAME called "Retrocade". It had a slick GUI, and it was coded in Assembly, and it was FAST! Unfortunately as most emu coders found out, they just couldn't compete with MAME, and it was abandoned. There were rumors of Retrocade starting back up again a few months back, but there hasn't been any news since.
Quote:
Originally posted by seen
Even though most of them openly admit to downloading music and other copyrighted content.
You can download music? :eek:
I didn't say CPU, I said a video card. The difference is that I'm pretty sure that some of the alpha blending in games like Strikers is done by the Video processor. But you're right Mame is shit slow these days, still being optimized for pentium and probably MMX. I mostly use other emus like Nebula, Kawaks, and Neo Rage.Quote:
Originally posted by DirtySouth
Also to the poster that mentioned getting a faster CPU, that would help, but the thing is that MAME simply isn't coded efficiently. It actually has gotten steadily slower over the last year or two, and some of the recent games require a > 2GHZ CPU to run at a playable framerate (with sound), and the games themselves only had sub 30MHZ processors.
The most interesting aspect to emulation is the grassroots programming that's going on. Digital Eclipse is comprised of a bunch of guys who did emus, and now they got to make the PS Collection...that aspect is what I love. I don't like the whole 'why buy it when I can play it for free!!!' explanation. I understand the older systems...it gets muddled there...new stuff (and finding ISOs) is just lame. But emulation as an exploration of programming, and a way to learn how to make games, is a nice niche that I hope never goes away.