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http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/2838593.stm
US ready to fight 'without UK'
British troops are nearly ready for action
US Defence Secretary Donald Rumsfeld has sparked diplomatic confusion by suggesting that America would be prepared to take military action against Iraq without Britain.
I agree, this is rather confusing. Though, maybe he meant it in a different way than it sounded, maybe trying to state that the US is going forth no matter what?
Who knows. Though this is probably not the message to send right now.
Is defense spelled defence in Brittain?
Yes. Defence is the correct spelling in every English speaking country that spells things correctly. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Master
Is defense spelled defence in Brittain?
Defencoulor?
I hate our current government.
Considering that our system of checks and balances is going right the hell out the window, I'm inclined to agree with you, bbob.
Rumsfeld is an idiot. The Bush administration doesn't know what it's doing. So far, I've seen Blix and the inspectors speak on how things are progessing much better in regards to Iraq's disarming. More missiles are being destroyed daily and that 30% of believed weapons have been taken care of so far. Now it looks like the U.S. jumped the gun in sending over all the troops. We detonated a bomb in Florida to scare Iraqi's, but from what I've seen, Americans are more scared than anyone else. So now that Iraq is disarming, that's no longer suitable for Bush? I thought that's what he wanted? Didn't he say that Saddam either needs to disarm or step down? So he's disarming and we want to go to war anyways. I think the Bush administration is revealing alterior motives for wanting to go to war. Just my opinion, but Bush, Rumsfeld, Cheney, Powell, and Ashcroft are making themselves look worse. I mean come on fhqwhgads.
SC
i've gotten tired of voicing my opinion on this issue - especially so late in the game - i'm taking a sit back and see what happens approach - not much I can do personally. Oh well - I'm going to try to enjoy my life.
I really want to go and move to Canada right about now...
Eh, we've got more than enough capability to go it alone. We're just looking for friends to join us in order to look good, in my opinion.
Tony Blair is stuck in a political quagmire and all Rummy is saying is that if the UK cannot join us at an acceptable date, we can do it without help.
Or help lessen the outrageous financial burden.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
Eh, we've got more than enough capability to go it alone. We're just looking for friends to join us in order to look good, in my opinion.
Tony Blair is stuck in a political quagmire and all Rummy is saying is that if the UK cannot join us at an acceptable date, we can do it without help.
ºTracer
canada backs the us right? i mean - don't they always?
Next thing we'll here is how Bush is ready to go to war with or without the support of the US public. :rolleyes:
I thought that was the progam?
Canada is full of French people...Quote:
Originally posted by station82o
canada backs the us right? i mean - don't they always?
Quebec is full of French people. If you actually knew anything about Canada, which is sad since their country is right above the U.S., then you would know that the Canadian consensus on the French and Quebec is disfavor.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
Canada is full of French people...
SC
I was being extremely fececious. So...bite me, cowboy. ;)
Um. When it comes to what?!? :wtf:Quote:
Originally posted by station82o
canada backs the us right? i mean - don't they always?
Canada is against this bullshit war. Canada was against the bullshit Vietnam war too. Let's think back to a worthwhile war, hrm, how about WWII. Go look up Canada's involvement. Hint: Start a few years before the US enters the war.
The whole situation is a mess. It seems to me as if the world and the U.N. are delaying in action against Iraq because of political reasons, and America is so fed up they're ready to invade without any allies. Surely a diplomatic solution can be found, but I don't think American will wait for one.
::: Just a friendly reminder :::Quote:
Originally posted by bbobb
I hate our current government.
If you said this in a non-democratic nation, you would be shot.
::: Thank you and have a nice day :::
:chick::chick::chick::chick::chick::chick:
You're a real hero.Quote:
Originally posted by Psx
I really want to go and move to Canada right about now...
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/142000...705indi150.jpg
My Prime Minister said: 'A regime change sets a dangerous precedent. I mean, they could do a regime change in Canada, I'm okay,' "I've only got 6 months left."Quote:
Originally posted by station82o
canada backs the us right? i mean - don't they always?
*Edited because of something Kyo reminded me of*
but what if the people decide to shoot you? It'll be part of the "STFU" act of 2003.Quote:
If you said this in a non-democratic nation, you would be shot.
You are wrong.Quote:
Originally posted by Critical Overdrive
::: Just a friendly reminder :::
If you said this in a non-democratic nation, you would be shot.
::: Thank you and have a nice day :::
Nothing will happen in a limited monarchy. :)
The US does not need to bother shooting dissenters. They're already irrelevant in the bullshit sham democracy. The same people who run the media and government control the people... and nothing you say or do makes one lick of difference so why bother shooting? Now that efficient.
Pax Americana
"So you say you want a rev-a-lution/ Well, y'know... we all wanna change the world..."
Also: http://workingforchange.speedera.net...C/bo030311.gif
Hmm, was I the only one that was watching the News when they had some generial with a picture of all the trouble areas of the world. Like they made some map pinpointing all the evil of the world. Oddly they were all right next to each other, and Iraq was in the middle. I've often wondered if the future war is just a gateway to dealing with other issues in other areas on that "problem" map that the governement doesn't want to talk about.
I'll bet my vast fortune that Iraq is not the only one in crosshairs. If I had a vast fortune that is :O
Quote:
Originally posted by Critical Overdrive
::: Just a friendly reminder :::
If you said this in a non-democratic nation, you would be shot.
::: Thank you and have a nice day :::
:chick::chick::chick::chick::chick::chick:
You're a real hero.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/olmedia/142000...705indi150.jpg
Ah yes, and what are you doing right now then?
Youre attacking his viewpoints becouse he would not be allowed to air them in a hard dictatorship.
Tsk tsk, the hipocrasy, you have the right as long as you dont exercise it.
Hey at least youre allowed to so why dont you shut up.
Urrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
That comic strip sucks monkey nuts. Seriously. Worst comic ever, barring Family Circus and Garfield.
Might I ask, what's with all your America-hate? As far as I know, we've never knocked your house down, burst your water pipes or infringed on your personal rights.Quote:
Originally posted by sggg
The US does not need to bother shooting dissenters. They're already irrelevant in the bullshit sham democracy. The same people who run the media and government control the people... and nothing you say or do makes one lick of difference so why bother shooting? Now that efficient.
I try to like Canada. From most of the people I've met outside of this board, Canada seems cool. But most of the Canadians in this board have an hell-born hate for us without any real reasoning. I could hate Canada because your politicians seem to enjoy taking potshots at us, or because if war were ever brought to your shores we'd have to be the ones to defend you because you couldn't do it yourselves or your crazy health system that doesn't allow anyone to actually get help. But as Canada has actually never done anything to me, I have no reason to hate you or your friends.
So, if we've ever killed your cat, ran over your dog, burned your homework or stole your lunch money, let me know, as I just can't seem to think of anything I may have done to make you hate me so much.
I think he's from new jersey.
Since when did the U.S. become a democracy?Quote:
Originally posted by Critical Overdrive
::: Just a friendly reminder :::
If you said this in a non-democratic nation, you would be shot.
::: Thank you and have a nice day :::
We are now forming a republican from of government. Real liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon turn into a monarchy (or some other form of dictatorship).
Alexander Hamilton
SC
Do you ever have anything worthwhile to say?Quote:
Originally posted by mattvanstone
That comic strip sucks monkey nuts. Seriously. Worst comic ever, barring Family Circus and Garfield.
SC
According to previous posts, he's in Canada and had lived in the States.Quote:
Originally posted by xS
I think he's from new jersey.
Remember, he means republican and not Republican. Sorta like, democratic country and Democratic country.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Since when did the U.S. become a democracy?
We are now forming a republican from of government. Real liberty is not found in the extremes of democracy, but in moderate governments. If we incline too much to democracy, we shall soon turn into a monarchy (or some other form of dictatorship).
Alexander Hamilton
SC
And the quote was in respects to electing only a President. Instead, we elect congressman and senators as well, in order to forbid the President from having ultimate power and thusly, the ability to install himself as a dictator.
Jimmy Carter's, like, smart an' stuff.
And he's also correct. :)
Call me crazy, but I think the reason Hussein's complying now is that our troops are in the area, getting into position, and getting ready to smack him down. Weapons inspections have been tried in the past, and Hussein's gone as far as to order them out of the country. At least now he knows the U.S. government's sick and tired and have lost all patience.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Rumsfeld is an idiot. The Bush administration doesn't know what it's doing. So far, I've seen Blix and the inspectors speak on how things are progessing much better in regards to Iraq's disarming. More missiles are being destroyed daily and that 30% of believed weapons have been taken care of so far. Now it looks like the U.S. jumped the gun in sending over all the troops.
I'm willing to bet that if our forces weren't in the area and the U.S. government wasn't calling for war, Hussein wouldn't be anywhere NEAR as cooperative.
Just my $.02...
WTF Almaci?! You sure do like getting people riled up, or pissed off at you, take your pick. I was not "attacking" Bbobb or his viewpoints, if that's what it looked like then I apologize (to him, not you :evil:). He has the right to express his views just like I have the right to criticize him for it, I thought this was common knowledge, but I guess some people need reminders...Quote:
Originally posted by Almaci
Ah yes, and what are you doing right now then?
Youre attacking his viewpoints becouse he would not be allowed to air them in a hard dictatorship.
Tsk tsk, the hipocrasy, you have the right as long as you dont exercise it.
Hey at least youre allowed to so why dont you shut up.
Urrrmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm...
Space Cowboy, you've completely missed the point I was making (SURPRISE!). Bbobb said that he hated his current government (I assume he lives in the United States but if thats not the case I'm sure he'll let us know). Saying this IS his right, however noone should take it for granted.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Since when did the U.S. become a democracy?
Hopefully this clears things up. If not, then try to eat this chicken :chick:
From yesterday's AP:
UN Secretary-General Kofi Annan appealed for unity, warning that a war without international support would lack legitimacy and violate the UN charter.
An illegitimate war, a country in defiance of the UN. That was supposed to be Iraq's role in this drama. Instead, it seems to be the U.S. part.
Doh.
And for the record, Canada is one of only 4 countries currently offically backing the US, and we almost always do support America. We've been each other's staunchest allies since WWII.
I believe the current official Canadian position is that we don't support war without a UN resolution, but in the event of one we'll send our troops to Afghanistan, allowing more of the American military there to move to the Persian gulf. We may also send supply and medical ships to the gulf. This would allow us to still support the Americans without actually participating in an Iraq conflict.
I don't hate "America". I hate the US government. Why? Because I believe freedom and liberty, and it does not exist there and the US govermnent prevents other peoples of the world from having it. I hate what is wrong and evil. C'est tout. That's why I left - after having been born and raised there for 26 of my 27 years.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
Might I ask, what's with all your America-hate? As far as I know, we've never knocked your house down, burst your water pipes or infringed on your personal rights.
I believe in people. All people. Including American people, which includes many of my family and friends. :)
/me gives xS a cookie for remembering where he was from
ps. Hey Strider, here's an article from Hogtown for you: Lien à l'Étoile du Toronto ;)
Dolemite's, like, ignorant an' stuff.Quote:
Originally posted by Dolemite
Jimmy Carter's, like, smart an' stuff.
And he's also correct. :)
And correct on what, may I ask? If he's trying to debate the democratic nature of the U.S. then he's not correct. We don't pledge allegiance to the flag, and to the democracy for which it stands. Read one of Robert Dahl's books on democracy (there's five of them so even you could find one). Read A.Ralph Epperson, read Isabel Paterson. Democracy is a system of government that allows for no limitations on the people's right to govern themselves. A republic divides affairs into public and private and sets limits to how much power people actually have. Damn, take an PSC intro course and you'll learn that the founders set up a republic on purpose because they (elites) didn't trust the common people with power. They tried it under the Articles of Confederation and it didn't work. Shay's Rebellion ring a bell? Read the Federalist Papers. It'll lay out how elites felt about democracy. So before you begin to spout rhetoric about how Western democracy is so great, understand that our country is set up specifically to avoid democracy. People don't vote on issues democratically, elect presidents democratically, and even representatives (who symbolize the only quasi-democratic feature of the U.S.) don't work democratically.
SC
I think it has more to do with the fact that both Rumsfeld and Hussein know a LOT more about the overall situation than we do and aren't telling.Quote:
Originally posted by DArque Bishop
Call me crazy, but I think the reason Hussein's complying now is that our troops are in the area, getting into position, and getting ready to smack him down. Weapons inspections have been tried in the past, and Hussein's gone as far as to order them out of the country. At least now he knows the U.S. government's sick and tired and have lost all patience.
I'm willing to bet that if our forces weren't in the area and the U.S. government wasn't calling for war, Hussein wouldn't be anywhere NEAR as cooperative.
Just my $.02...
http://golem.ph.utexas.edu/~distler/...mmy-saddam.jpg
Rumsfeld as special envoy to Iraq in 1983, back when they were our buds and we sold them chemical & biological wepaons to use against Iran.
SC, I'm officially confiscating your soapbox. :p
We don't hate you. It's just that a lot of Canadians (and people in just about every country in the world) hate American foreign policy. They also hate the preceived attitude of "we better than everybody in the world" or "If it wasn't for us, you wouldn't be here," attitude." Preceived doesn't necessarily mean it's there, though.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
Might I ask, what's with all your America-hate? As far as I know, we've never knocked your house down, burst your water pipes or infringed on your personal rights.
I try to like Canada. From most of the people I've met outside of this board, Canada seems cool. But most of the Canadians in this board have an hell-born hate for us without any real reasoning. I could hate Canada because your politicians seem to enjoy taking potshots at us, or because if war were ever brought to your shores we'd have to be the ones to defend you because you couldn't do it yourselves or your crazy health system that doesn't allow anyone to actually get help. But as Canada has actually never done anything to me, I have no reason to hate you or your friends.
So, if we've ever killed your cat, ran over your dog, burned your homework or stole your lunch money, let me know, as I just can't seem to think of anything I may have done to make you hate me so much.
Anyway, people always hate who's on top.
Wow, another James and the Giant Peach fan!Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Read one of Robert Dahl's books...
Wait a minute...
Dolemite, like, was making a comment. So, like, stop being a jerk.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Dolemite's, like, ignorant an' stuff.
And correct on what, may I ask? If he's trying to debate the democratic nature of the U.S. then he's not correct. We don't pledge allegiance to the flag, and to the democracy for which it stands. Read one of Robert Dahl's books on democracy (there's five of them so even you could find one). Read A.Ralph Epperson, read Isabel Paterson. Democracy is a system of government that allows for no limitations on the people's right to govern themselves. A republic divides affairs into public and private and sets limits to how much power people actually have. Damn, take an PSC intro course and you'll learn that the founders set up a republic on purpose because they (elites) didn't trust the common people with power. They tried it under the Articles of Confederation and it didn't work. Shay's Rebellion ring a bell? Read the Federalist Papers. It'll lay out how elites felt about democracy. So before you begin to spout rhetoric about how Western democracy is so great, understand that our country is set up specifically to avoid democracy. People don't vote on issues democratically, elect presidents democratically, and even representatives (who symbolize the only quasi-democratic feature of the U.S.) don't work democratically.
I wasn't debating the democratic nature of the US so quit insinuating it.
The United States is a Federal Republic with strong democratic tradition (according to the CIA.
The founders were not elites nor their intentions elitist. They designed the framework with the intention that this republic would never fade away. Under a "true" democracy, we could select for ourselves a king who would rule until he died and we could also choose that his sons take his position, so we'd never get out of it.
This is not elitist. This is looking out for the future and for the people. If you dislike it, fine. But I admire it. It demonstrates forthought on the possibilities.
We've got a Congress and Senate to vote on issues for us. If the United States were to put every single issue to vote, it would be a mess. Hence, I'm fine with a republic and the way things work.
Nice out of context use.Quote:
Originally posted by Melf
Rumsfeld as special envoy to Iraq in 1983, back when they were our buds and we sold them chemical & biological wepaons to use against Iran.
If you'd look at the why we did it instead of the what we did of the situation, you might understand why we helped him at the time. At the time, Iran was the bigger threat and we didn't know that Saddam was the kind of guy he was. When he used gas on Iranians we got mad about is and stopped support.
A government put there by the people of the United States, mind you. And before you pull the typical "GEORGE BUSH WAS SELECTED NOT ELECTED" mind you, we've got a House and a Senate. These are the guys that, in the end, control much of what happens.Quote:
Originally posted by sggg
I don't hate "America". I hate the US government.
I would like everyone to believe in the idea of Liberty. But how does it not exist in the US?Quote:
Why? Because I believe freedom and liberty, and it does not exist there and the US govermnent prevents other peoples of the world from having it.
I could be classified as a very "independent" person. Instead of going to college, I started my own business. I've written for many gaming sites that I've started on my own. Most of my opinions are formed on my own, with my own thought and my own logic.
Tell me how this is not freedom. Tell me how my rights have been surpressed.
This country of mine, whether you like it or not, offers a hell of a lot of Liberty for next to nothing in price. You can come here, say your oath, get a job and climb the ladder of success to the "good life" without anyone getting in your way.
And besides our own freedom, we've given it to others. We helped Europe in WWII. We saved Korea. We saved Kuwait. We helped the Afghanis against the Soviet invasion and freed them in 2001. We helped the Bosnians.
How does my country hinder other countries' freedoms?
You hate the US government. Thusly, the government is wrong and evil. The government was put in place by the people so ... the people made the government wrong and evil.Quote:
I hate what is wrong and evil.
As irritated as I've gotten from "Damn Americans, I hate the bastards"-type comments, or claims of "moral superiority", I've never once felt the need to take any agression or anger out on my Canadian friends.Quote:
Originally posted by Brisco Bold
We don't hate you. It's just that a lot of Canadians (and people in just about every country in the world) hate American foreign policy. They also hate the preceived attitude of "we better than everybody in the world" or "If it wasn't for us, you wouldn't be here," attitude." Preceived doesn't necessarily mean it's there, though.
I've never felt the need to insult your government, make personal insults on you or find anything in which to gripe about against you. Canada will do what Canada wants and feels best for its own intentions and people should realize that America will do what America feels is best for itself, as well. All countries behave this way.
I am aboot to move to canada.
Jimmy Carter: Agreed on most all points. One exception in particular, however: "we didn't know that Saddam was the kind of guy he was." Actually, Saddam's rise to power (a particularly brutal one) was well known. But, as you say, we had other problems at the time.
Of course, as I say, I generally agree with you on these increasingly common threads. By the way, have you, too, read James and Giant Peach?
I'll give you that. I'm speaking only of what I believe to know and in the case of Saddam in the 80's, I don't know a lot. Only pieces.Quote:
Originally posted by Prince Planet
Jimmy Carter: Agreed on most all points. One exception in particular, however: "we didn't know that Saddam was the kind of guy he was." Actually, Saddam's rise to power (a particularly brutal one) was well known. But, as you say, we had other problems at the time.
Actually, yes. By Roald Dahl. A fabulous book. And I believe I read another book by him, but I forget the title.Quote:
Of course, as I say, I generally agree with you on these increasingly common threads. By the way, have you, too, read James and Giant Peach?
I agree with you totally. The only thing I'll add is that in the case of the US, the actions it takes will/do affect a lot of other people, countries. It is, after all, a super-power with extra-ordinary reach. Naturally, if people feel their interests are being (compromised <can't think of a better word>?) without their consent, they tend to gripe and complain. Some of it is warranted. Some of it isn't.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
All countries behave this way.
Stuff happens.
Aside from comical bashing (which is a two-way thing), and slight foregn policy quibbles, I gots no major beef with the US.
Why do people like Carter continue to insist that Iraq was the lesser of two evils?
Iraq has ALWAYS been the bigger threat, its just that US government claimed the opposite becouse a popular revolution had taken place in Iran where the US puppet dictator was removed and replaced with one of their own.
It wasnt becouse Iran was a bigger threat, it never was, it was becouse the US couldnt stomach the humiliating defeat they had faced.
We really didn't save Korea. In fact, Korea is a mess now and has been since 1945, mostly because of the US, the USSR, and Cold War policy. I am ignorant of the other situations you named outside of the bare obvious facts, so I wont comment on them - but I know about Korea, and I know the USA definitely did not "save" Korea.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
I would like everyone to believe in the idea of Liberty. But how does it not exist in the US?
I could be classified as a very "independent" person. Instead of going to college, I started my own business. I've written for many gaming sites that I've started on my own. Most of my opinions are formed on my own, with my own thought and my own logic.
Tell me how this is not freedom. Tell me how my rights have been surpressed.
This country of mine, whether you like it or not, offers a hell of a lot of Liberty for next to nothing in price. You can come here, say your oath, get a job and climb the ladder of success to the "good life" without anyone getting in your way.
And besides our own freedom, we've given it to others. We helped Europe in WWII. We saved Korea. We saved Kuwait. We helped the Afghanis against the Soviet invasion and freed them in 2001. We helped the Bosnians.
But the rest of the things you said I agree with to a point.
Umm, they were elitest. Read any political science book. Perhaps you should rethink your decision not to attend college. It's pretty much common sense that the Federalist were elitest and that the Anti-Federalist were more for the common folk. They're ideas were certainly elitest. Sorry for jumping on you like that. As long as you understand that this is a republic. I'm fine with it as well, but things have deviated from the original plan.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
The founders were not elites nor their intentions elitist. They designed the framework with the intention that this republic would never fade away. Under a "true" democracy, we could select for ourselves a king who would rule until he died and we could also choose that his sons take his position, so we'd never get out of it.
This is not elitist. This is looking out for the future and for the people. If you dislike it, fine. But I admire it. It demonstrates forthought on the possibilities.
We've got a Congress and Senate to vote on issues for us. If the United States were to put every single issue to vote, it would be a mess. Hence, I'm fine with a republic and the way things work.
Did you put it there? No, our government was created over 200 years ago. We just inherited it. I would agree with you on the House and Senate, but the problem is that they both defer to the president on most important issues, so as to distance themselves from any responsibility. Too much power has gone to the executive in the past couple of decades.Quote:
A government put there by the people of the United States, mind you. And before you pull the typical "GEORGE BUSH WAS SELECTED NOT ELECTED" mind you, we've got a House and a Senate. These are the guys that, in the end, control much of what happens.
This is an illusion. How about all the people that the American Dream doesn't help? You're foolish for being so naive.Quote:
This country of mine, whether you like it or not, offers a hell of a lot of Liberty for next to nothing in price. You can come here, say your oath, get a job and climb the ladder of success to the "good life" without anyone getting in your way.
Saved Korea? Kuwait? Afghanistan? What are you on? Afghanistan ranks at the bottom of almost every social and economic statistic in the world. Korea is a mess and I will be returning their this summer to do some follow-up research on a study I'm conducting. Have you ever been to Kuwait? I have. It's not how you think it is. Bosnia? I won't even honor that with a response. Check out some current views on how things are over there.Quote:
And besides our own freedom, we've given it to others. We helped Europe in WWII. We saved Korea. We saved Kuwait. We helped the Afghanis against the Soviet invasion and freed them in 2001. We helped the Bosnians.
How does my country hinder other countries' freedoms?
I dislike the way the government is run. The people who run it are greedy and evil. The people are just ignorant.Quote:
You hate the US government. Thusly, the government is wrong and evil. The government was put in place by the people so ... the people made the government wrong and evil.
SC
So many people with dreams they only dream about. If you want to go, go. It should be as easy.Quote:
Originally posted by Psx
I really want to go and move to Canada right about now...
spacecowboy, Afghanistan will not turn from being a ragged shithole, which it was for two decades, into being a strong vibrant economy overnight. The government still has a LONG way to go, and citing statistics of today's economy and shit means nothing. South Korea's turnaround was miraculous, but in the years following the Korean War, the per capita GDP was something like $100.
In the case of Afghanistan, its too early to tell whether it will be a success. But as I have contended many times on these boards, the ousting of the Taliban was a good thing for the Afghani civilians. I dont think you can come up with too much evidence to the contrary.
Poly Sci books are just like the Bible - written by men and prone to 'rewritting history.' Don't think so? How much 'faith' do you have in those who control, author, and distribute these books? Ready to blindly believe them, ready to believe that these men and women are 100% without prejudice, bias, or skewing?Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Umm, they were elitest. Read any political science book. Perhaps you should rethink your decision not to attend college. It's pretty much common sense that the Federalist were elitest and that the Anti-Federalist were more for the common folk. They're ideas were certainly elitest. Sorry for jumping on you like that. As long as you understand that this is a republic. I'm fine with it as well, but things have deviated from the original plan.
If you can, how come you can't have that same faith in all people?
If you're willing to be consistent in this, I'd like to hear your gripes about Clinton. And none of that 'he was the most Republican Democrat' line. I don't want stereotypes. I want exact examples of HOW the executive branch has been behaving that would coincide with what you said. And remember - you said over the past couple of decades; I'd like at least 20 years of your grievances with presidents.Quote:
Did you put it there? No, our government was created over 200 years ago. We just inherited it. I would agree with you on the House and Senate, but the problem is that they both defer to the president on most important issues, so as to distance themselves from any responsibility. Too much power has gone to the executive in the past couple of decades.
So we change it to a one-size fits all? Cosy said it best 'try to please everyone and you please no one.' The fact that Carter exists proves that a more collectivist attitude would NOT make everyone happy. Because then instead of your grievances, we'd hear his.Quote:
This is an illusion. How about all the people that the American Dream doesn't help? You're foolish for being so naive.
Tell me - what do YOU think will make everyone happy, while making the whole world work together in a non-conflicting nature? And, if you do have the answer, how do you 'take care of' those who won't conform to this utopian world? Kill em, strip their idvidual thought away from them and brainwash them to believe your rhetoric? How do you make everything work and make everyone happy and successful?
One terribly painful truth I've learned (and still try to ignore), is that some people won't make it, no matter how much help you give. Heck, if someone can't stand on their own two feet, do we take a tribe to walk them through life? So how many tribes would it take to 'help' the entire world population? More people than there are, by math's sense.
I don't know so I won't say. Here's a very utilitarian, cold, heartless, logical question; why should we care? What function does it serve to help any impovershed country? So we can be told we're not doing a good enough job of it? So we can be blamed of 'controlling' weaker countries? Nothing but criticisms, no resources or wealth to take, and surely no chess-like use, right?Quote:
Saved Korea? Kuwait? Afghanistan? What are you on? Afghanistan ranks at the bottom of almost every social and economic statistic in the world. Korea is a mess and I will be returning their this summer to do some follow-up research on a study I'm conducting. Have you ever been to Kuwait? I have. It's not how you think it is. Bosnia? I won't even honor that with a response. Check out some current views on how things are over there.
That paragraph brought to you by own method - you believe people (or the US government) are greedy and evil. So if it was all about greed, why help those who would give us less than the effort used to 'help' them? Or somesuch - like I said, I don't enough to say.
So on one hand say it isn't the populace you have a gripe with, and with the other collectively slap them in the face. And tell me - how is the populace blanket-ignorant if someone such as yourself is 'enlightened' to this whole mess.Quote:
I dislike the way the government is run. The people who run it are greedy and evil. The people are just ignorant.
SC
It's really quite funny:
If I were to try to convince about God, make you follow a religion, and did it with such fevor, I'd get reamed. It would be a holier-than-thou attitude where I OBVIOUSLY know more than you, and you MUST follow me to be right. This approach seldom works, and those who retaliate say that it's their life to choose what they want, to do what they want, and to believe what they want.
What I want to know - are you one of those people? And if so, how come a strongarming attitude is intolerable in a religious context yet a-ok in a political/social context? And if you believe using it in any context is wrong, why are you so vehement that your sources, your books, your venerated authors, stats, and worldview is right. At the end of the day you may know facts, but do you know their context, how they tie into other facts, and so on? Do you know everything about everything and how it relates to everything else? Only if you did would I ever admit to your belief being 'right.'
To know what is truly right is to know everything in the situation. How many people, if any, can admit that?
Are these the same books that paint Columbus as a tyrant? I'll pass. I've got history books here that are just fine, thank you. If you were so sorry about jumping all over me previously, why'd you just do it again?Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Umm, they were elitest. Read any political science book. Perhaps you should rethink your decision not to attend college. It's pretty much common sense that the Federalist were elitest and that the Anti-Federalist were more for the common folk. They're ideas were certainly elitest. Sorry for jumping on you like that. As long as you understand that this is a republic. I'm fine with it as well, but things have deviated from the original plan.
And if you're any indication what going to college would make of me, consider me proud to skip out. To have as little control over my thoughts and to be so swayed by someone else's critical thinking instead of my own, is not something I envy.
I'd like you to point this out for me, where the President has excercised too much of his own power. From my short time on this earth, I seem to remember the Presidents generally going to the Senate for permission. I mean, even Bush asked for the authorization of force before using it.Quote:
Did you put it there? No, our government was created over 200 years ago. We just inherited it. I would agree with you on the House and Senate, but the problem is that they both defer to the president on most important issues, so as to distance themselves from any responsibility. Too much power has gone to the executive in the past couple of decades.
Helps me perfectly, thank you. If it's not working for someone else, they should try another country. America is the easiest to make a good living in.Quote:
This is an illusion. How about all the people that the American Dream doesn't help?
Naive? At least I can think for myself, which is saying something.Quote:
You're foolish for being so naive.
Yep. Communists were invading from the North, we held the North back and an armistace was signed that stopped North aggression. Had we not stepped in, South Korea would be under commie control.Quote:
Saved Korea?
Yeah. Called the "Gulf War". They were invaded. The US and Company kicked the Iraqi invaders out.Quote:
Kuwait?
In the 80's Russia invaded Afghanistan with an intention to dominate them. We aided the Afghanis (unfortunately, the Taliban returned the favor by enslaving the country) and helped them push Russia out.Quote:
Afghanistan?
In 2001, in our War on Terror, we freed them from the Taliban rule.
Nothing, however, I should get some cream for my psoriasis.Quote:
What are you on?
I'm glad that economic prosperity defines a free country. Oh, wait, it doesn't.Quote:
Afghanistan ranks at the bottom of almost every social and economic statistic in the world.
That's cool. My good friend has a Korean mother and has been to Korea to see his grandparents. His father served in the US military in Korea. From what I hear, the country really isn't as messed up as you say.Quote:
Korea is a mess and I will be returning their this summer to do some follow-up research on a study I'm conducting.
No. Why would I want to go there?Quote:
Have you ever been to Kuwait?
Boo hoo? We kicked Iraq out. It's not our job to save them and make them prosper as well.Quote:
I have. It's not how you think it is.
Thanks, because most of them have been lacking in any real substance.Quote:
Bosnia? I won't even honor that with a response.
Like whose, yours?Quote:
Check out some current views on how things are over there.
If you say so. I'll be "naive" about it and trust them until they give me a reason not to.Quote:
I dislike the way the government is run. The people who run it are greedy and evil. The people are just ignorant.
How is that out of context? It's the truth.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
Nice out of context use.
If you'd look at the why we did it instead of the what we did of the situation, you might understand why we helped him at the time. At the time, Iran was the bigger threat and we didn't know that Saddam was the kind of guy he was.
..and I don't subscribe to the time-worn argument that "we didn't know what he was like." If that's so, then how do you consider him the lesser of two evils? We knew exactly who Saddam was. Hell, we're partly responsible for making him that way. I've said it before and I'll say it again. We've been in the situation of having to choose the lesser of two evils a few times in the 20th century. There are times, however, when the United States, faced with such moral dilemmas, should have resisted the temptation to act. Arming a multi-national coalition of Islamic extremists in Afghanistan during the 1980s - well after the destruction of the Marine barracks in Beirut or the hijacking of TWA Flight 847 - was one of those times, Iraq was another.
Also untrue. According to the Washington Post (Dec. 30, 2002):Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
When he used gas on Iranians we got mad about it and stopped support.
Also...Quote:
On Nov. 1, 1983, a senior State Department official, Jonathan T. Howe, told Secretary of State George P. Shultz that intelligence reports showed that Iraqi troops were resorting to "almost daily use of CW" against the Iranians. But the Reagan administration had already committed itself to a large-scale diplomatic and political overture to Baghdad, culminating in several visits by the president's recently appointed special envoy to the Middle East, Donald H. Rumsfeld.
In Feb. 1982, Reagon took Iraq off the list of terrorist nations. We knew exactly who Saddam was and adopted a "we'll deal with him later" approach to Iraq. Worked wonders, didn't it?Quote:
A 1994 investigation by the Senate Banking Committee turned up dozens of biological agents shipped to Iraq during the mid-'80s under license from the Commerce Department, including various strains of anthrax, subsequently identified by the Pentagon as a key component of the Iraqi biological warfare program. The Commerce Department also approved the export of insecticides to Iraq, despite widespread suspicions that they were being used for chemical warfare.
The fact that Iraq was using chemical weapons was hardly a secret. In February 1984, an Iraqi military spokesman effectively acknowledged their use by issuing a chilling warning to Iran. "The invaders should know that for every harmful insect, there is an insecticide capable of annihilating it . . . and Iraq possesses this annihilation insecticide."
It's even more funny when people say he's not a big threat, and then in the same breath go 'lookie, we let him in and now see how big he's become?'
Should it all be as dirty and ugly as your post says, I agree. As it is, I don't think we should be sending anyone with questionable intentions such weapons.Quote:
Originally posted by Melf
In Feb. 1982, Reagon took Iraq off the list of terrorist nations. We knew exactly who Saddam was and adopted a "we'll deal with him later" approach to Iraq. Worked wonders, didn't it?
But on the flip side, I'd like to hear explanations from both sides. The story is often more complex than it seems.
It's like Clinton's use of missiles in 199... whenever. 1998, I think. He didn't tell them to intentionally hit targets that were civilian. We hit the med plant because according to intelligence, terrorists were using the location. But from a perspective of the what happened instead of why it looks like an atrocity.
Thats not really the case man. I hate to say this, but you are quite ignorant of what happened in Korea from 1945 onward. I was, too, until I took a class on it, but yea... there's a lot more that went on than simply that. Your view is the typical American view of the subject, but Americans really know nothing about Korea from 1910 to present.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
Yep. Communists were invading from the North, we held the North back and an armistace was signed that stopped North aggression. Had we not stepped in, South Korea would be under commie control.
Korea was split up after World War II by America and the USSR. *Solely* by them. Not one Korean was consulted in the decision. It was simply a matter of foreign policy... an arbitrary decision to try to satisfy the "interests" both countries had in the state. Both states were ruled by the USSR and America until 1948.
America and the USSR really did nothing to try to pave the way for reunification. In fact, when the Korean War started, obviously both jumped into the fray to help their "sides". Here's a step-by-step breakdown:
01. North Korea does indeed capture Seoul after four days and moves towards Pusan.
02. American involvement in the war keeps them from there, thanks in large part to the Inchon landings.
03. American forces drive towards Pyongyang but are faced with Chinese opposition. Then we reach a stalemate in 1951.
04. America proceeds to bomb the fuck out of North Korea until 1953. MacArthur's orders were basically to raze the entire country, and they did.
Yes, if America was not involved, then the South would've fell under North control. But look at Korea today. Is it ideal? Not even close.
It is faced with an unnatural division, a division that means nothing to Koreans. It had to deal with a devastating civil war that killed millions of citizens and destroyed whatever modern buildings that were put up from 1895 until 1945. The civil war solved nothing. The American Civil War allowed the two sides to shake out the tension that built up over the 19th century. The Korean War did none of that - it didnt allow the sides to shake out that tension that came from being occupied by Japan, then the USA and the USSR.
Now, there is a Korea has the most heavily defended border in the world, with two huge armies ready to strike at each other in a second. Despite being the same in language and culture, there exists a huge, huge gap that they didn't want, didn't ask for, and didn't need. We have a North Korea that has people that eat tree bark to survive because the distribution system is shot there. And we have a South Korea which has suffered through numerous dictatorships (yes, dictatorships) who were put in place by the American government because they were anti-Communist. We finally, finally have a South Korea today that is kind of the democracy it should've been since 1948. This is only because of the deaths of countless citizens crushed by the Korean police state. Ever hear of the Kwangju Uprising? Probably not.
We have a Korea in which 1.2 million refugees fled from North to the South during the American bombing runs, but those millions cannot see, talk to, phone, mail, or email the family they left behind. We have a Korea which was a single, unified country for 5000 years, yet was split apart by powers that had nothing to do with it. We have a Korea that really is very, very far from becoming the country it always was, thanks to these splits and a war it didn't control.
America has basically retarded Korea's modern growth process, yet Americans know nothing of it - guess which war is referred to as "The Forgotten War"?
If you are interested in Korea, I highly suggest you check out Bruce Cuming's (an American expert on Korea) excellent textbook Korea's Place in the Sun. You will learn a lot, a lot that nobody here in America teaches or knows about. You will also know why a lot of South (yes, South) Korean people harbor anti-American feelings... the new president, Roh Moo Hyun ran on basically an anti-American platform and it got him elected.
PSC books aren't like the bible and in my opinion, this is a bad analogy. PSC books are as prone to as much bias as any other book, but what else should I go to? The only record we have of founding of this country is in books. Your argument on that is pretty baseless. Contrary to what you may or may not believe, I DO have faith in all people. I don't however place all my faith in the system, like you and Carter do.
I think it's pretty obvious that the executive branch has steadily grown more powerful. Clinton didn't ask permission to bomb Kosovo. Bush 43 had to be forced to ask for permission to send troops to Iraq. But if you want some general examples, how about the War Powers Act? And the Power of the Purse? Both of those were given to the president when they were original sole reign of Congress.
Don't tell me the American Dream is a reality. How many people, besides Carter, succeed in the U.S. to the level that they expect. I'd like everyone to be able to recieve no cost health care, higher quality education, a cleaner environment. Why can't Americans have these things? If we're the best why can't I go to hospital after a car accident and get free medical attention? Why does the U.S. consistently rank behind several European and Asian countries in term of education? I want those things for my fellow citizens.
You're right about all those countries. Why should we care? Who said that the U.S. should police the world. But since our tax dollars are going to their country I think that we deserve a say in the matter. We help these countries because in most instances they do have resources we need, either directly or as strategic location to other countries. Turkey is a good example of that.
I don't call the American population ignorant out of disgust, but it is the truth. I'm not enlightened, but I am informed and that's more than many can say. I don't claim to know everything, but I believe it is my right as an American to say what I feel is right. If you could show me one instance where I am honestly mistaken, I'll be glad to admit it. But saying that everything I say is bullshit isn't fair.
Carter, you are the epitome of all that is wrong with our country. You are condescending and yours are the points without any substance. Reading over your last post makes me realize how unwilling you are to even consider another viewpoint. Your answer to someone living in poverty in the U.S. is for them to leave? I'm sorry your views of the world are based solely on life in America. Life for an American in Korea isn't anything like life for a Korean in Korea. Don't take my word for it, find out for yourself. If you can ever have an intelligent discussion on any topic, I would love to discuss it. But you just put people down that don't subscribe to your narrow view. My point in writing all the things I do is first tell people what I think and second to propose an opposing view for consideration. Too bad you can't do the same.
SC
When I get injured and go to the hospital they heal me up good. So how come you said the health care system doesn't help people?
First hand, here.
Carter; I think alot of people just don't understand why the US governs like they do. How is it their place to control other nations in the world, yadda, yadda, yadda.
I don't see how the US government, as a whole, is so bad. They do alot of good in the world. And sometimes you have to make sacrifices for the greater good. This isn't a perfect world like many think it is.
Andrew, I am not sure if you were taking the piss but....... the point is that in the USA many people do not even have basic health care. In the rest of the modern world, they would. :(
I was referring to Canada, sorry. (He made a comment earlier about it not working)
Ahh sorry.. I should have realised/known that. It was my fault, not yours.
Reading some of the posts in this thread have made me stupider. :p
It was my posts right? I think Carter is making me senile.Quote:
Originally posted by sggg
Ahh sorry.. I should have realised/known that. It was my fault, not yours.
Reading some of the posts in this thread have made me stupider. :p
SC
Spacecowboy, your posts have been nothing less than wonderful. Honestly. I have not posted many direct replies because you have said everything I would have said, and but probably better than I would have. I commend your patience and dignity in the face of overwhelming absurdity. Good man. :)
I'm not sure if that's terrifying or reassuring. To be honest, another century of an American edge over the Chinese and Russians may not be such a bad thing. Great article, though.Quote:
Originally posted by sggg
Hey Strider, here's an article from Hogtown for you: Lien à l'Étoile du Toronto ;)
At this point I'd just like to point out that our health care system is one of the very best on earth (according to the UN), and any instances of hospital overcrowding are so infequent as to be almost mythical. Sorry, our healthcare system is a source of national pride, and nobody here would ever trade it for the US system, except for the very wealthy who don't want to have to share the same hospitals as the hoi polloi.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
or your crazy health system that doesn't allow anyone to actually get help.
I'd also like to say by and large, Canadians recognize that Americans are so similar to us that any cultural criticisms are fairly silly in the end. Any shots taken at Americans are generally made in jest, and have been given to us by a factor of 10 from the US in the first place anyway. (Many) Americans do seem to confuse criticism of their current government with criticism of the people, however, which they shouldn't. If somebody wants to knock Chretien on a purely political rather than nationalistic basis, I'd have no problem with it (even if I did vote for him) and wouldn't take it personally or anything.
Most people I know feel the same way, which is why it's suprising if somebody here takes a shot at Bush as a personal insult against Americans.
I hope for the best, but I would like to see excatly how much money and resources are spent to 'rebuild' the nation.Quote:
Originally posted by diffusionx
In the case of Afghanistan, its too early to tell whether it will be a success. But as I have contended many times on these boards, the ousting of the Taliban was a good thing for the Afghani civilians. I dont think you can come up with too much evidence to the contrary.
I heard from some professors at UH that the allocated funds for rebuilding afghanistan is 0. If someone has #s I would like to see them to disprove that potentially false and surely disheartening figure.
ºTracer
I agree 100%.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
nobody here would ever trade it for the US system, except for the very wealthy who don't want to have to share the same hospitals as the hoi polloi.
Chances are though, that those very wealthy people you mentioned would have immigrated to the US anyway - because they don't like paying taxes. That's one of the reasons why I would not allow dual citizenship with the US if I was put in charge of Canada. :\
I'd like to point out that people in the rest of Canada think Toronto (and the rest of Southern Ontario) is practically American and we don't like them very much. ;)Quote:
I'd also like to say by and large, Canadians recognize that Americans are so similar to us that any cultural criticisms are fairly silly in the end.
:p
That is a fantastic point Strider. That is one of the things I most appreciate about Canada. Canadians are always looking at ways to improve the country and it's policies. The people are very open to change and alternatives. Puclic debate is encouraged and common and respected. Generally speaking, the media is fair and encourages debate and people have a voice.Quote:
(Many) Americans do seem to confuse criticism of their current government with criticism of the people, however, which they shouldn't. If somebody wants to knock Chretien on a purely political rather than nationalistic basis, I'd have no problem with it (even if I did vote for him) and wouldn't take it personally or anything.
I also think this is one of the reasons some Canadians have an insecurity complex though... but personally, after having lived in the US for so long... I appreciate it and cherish it so much and I thank my lucky stars every day. :)
Sad but true. I gets mad hate up in Montreal.Quote:
Originally posted by sggg
I'd like to point out that people in the rest of Canada think Toronto (and the rest of Southern Ontario) is practically American and we don't like them very much. ;)
Well, they are already spending the funds they need to build the oil pipeline they so desired.Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer
I hope for the best, but I would like to see excatly how much money and resources are spent to 'rebuild' the nation.
I heard from some professors at UH that the allocated funds for rebuilding afghanistan is 0. If someone has #s I would like to see them to disprove that potentially false and surely disheartening figure.
That pretty much speaks for itself. :\
ps. This is only semi-related, but here is a link to an interview with a Pulitzer Prize winning historian and professor at MIT who discusses the US government's current talk about "nation-building" by comparing Iraq to post WW2 Japan: Link
///\\\///
Then stop wearing that damn Maple Leafs sweater!! :pQuote:
Originally posted by Brisco Bold
Sad but true. I gets mad hate up in Montreal.
I cheer for the HABS! Been a habs fan all my life.
Brilliant! Wear the Habs sweater then and everyone will love you. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by Brisco Bold
I cheer for the HABS! Been a habs fan all my life.
The Habs are my second favourite team, after the Devils. I am looking forward to going to see the Devs@Habs at Bell Centre next week. :)
There's a "rest of Canada"? ;)Quote:
Originally posted by sggg
I'd like to point out that people in the rest of Canada think Toronto (and the rest of Southern Ontario) is practically American and we don't like them very much. ;)
Seriously though, you think we're American, you should head to Alberta some time. Texas north, I tell you. Guns, God and rugged individualism all over.
Hmm, there was a time where everyone in the U.S. could get medical attention. There was no system however, no big government program. It was a time before the forms and all the regulations, a time before sueing and expectiong Doctors to be Gods. A long time ago when my granddad was a Dr. it was very common place for those who could not pay in money to pay however they could. There was a time when a person could pay with eggs or some meat. But now such things are impossable. There is no way anyone could show such kindness with how envolved the goverenment is in the medical world. The very socilaist ideals that made those health care systems possable in other nations, destroyed that older simpliar system.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Don't tell me the American Dream is a reality. How many people, besides Carter, succeed in the U.S. to the level that they expect. I'd like everyone to be able to recieve no cost health care, higher quality education, a cleaner environment. Why can't Americans have these things? If we're the best why can't I go to hospital after a car accident and get free medical attention? Why does the U.S. consistently rank behind several European and Asian countries in term of education? I want those things for my fellow citizens.
SC
No cost health care? Do you know why health care cost something? Becasue to provide care, requires educated people, specially made equipment, and now, insurance, regualtions, and forms. All of those things cost money. Who's going to pay for all of this? In the U.S. the people pay at the desk, in socalist nations, they pay through taxes. But it still doesn't cost as much, and why? Probably because they pay medical workers shit in other contries. Also perhaps becasue they don't have to pay out the ass for insurance. Really, do people in other nations sue for everything? Do other nations have places that their largest sorce of income is medical related laws suits? But I digress on that issue, I could talk all day about how royally screwed over people in the medical field are when it comes to the socialist medical polcies the U.S. Go read up on Law suit capping in Mississippi, that is one current issues. But really, Im all for socialiced medicine. It would be wonderful if Doctors got payed the same thing they are now, but by the governemnt. But the current stuff, like making a Doctor take less money for the same care, and in some cases losing money on something he does, sucks ass. They either need to take the bullshit socalist practices out, or really reform it. What we have now is pure ass.
I have no idea why you are complaing about our level of education. There is a very simple reason why the U.S. ranks lower on that list. The U.S. ranks lower becuase we let ever tom dick and harry take the test, while in other countries they only let the best take it. Anyone who has been in the U.S. puplic school system should have easy time understand why letting "Everyone" take that test would bring us down. For someone who knows so much, how can you ignore the fact that most nations have their school systems set up differently?
True. From what I gather, in a lot of countries the wheat is seperated from the chaff kinda early on. Here, that's done in college pretty much. Any coincidence, then, that America has by far the best higher education system in the world?Quote:
Originally posted by IronPlant
For someone who knows so much, how can you ignore the fact that most nations have their school systems set up differently?
It's certainly not because American students are dumb!
I've heard that more than once... I suppose Alberta is more Texas than Texas is.Quote:
Originally posted by StriderKyo
There's a "rest of Canada"? ;)
Seriously though, you think we're American, you should head to Alberta some time. Texas north, I tell you. Guns, God and rugged individualism all over.
ºTracer
Ironplant, one of the reasons why healthcare is so expensive in the US is not becouse doctors in more socialist countries allegedly make less money or whatever.
Its becouse in the US healthcare is a bussuines designed to turn a profit.
In the US blood and plasma are seen as commercial goods and get sold to the highest bidders, hospitals have to turn a profit and the medical industry profits with insane margins from peoples fear to die.
Healthcare in Belgium is among the best in the world and no matter what care is needed a person will never have to pay more then around 1200$ a year for TOTAL coverage.
We can choose oure own doctors, hospitals and care, we have total freedom with that and doctors just like in the US have competition from eachother so we dont have a system like the UK where you have assigned doctors wich are free and private doctors wich provide better care but cost an arm and a leg.
Its gotten to a point in the UK now where they have begged Belgium to help British people in urgent need and Belgian hospitals are now using overcapâcity to help British patients.
Now Belgium is a small country so one might say such a system is easier to manage becouse of that, the underlying system however could be used on a larger scale and could be done in the US on a state level with states taking care of it in the same way Belgium does.
Sadly the medical INDUSTRY in the US will never allow it so you people seem to be stuck with a system where making money and pleasing shareholders seems more important then saving lives and providing care.
You've got to be kidding me... Are you telling me that American schools are just as good as anywhere else? Granted they aren't the worst, but the education system in this country sucks. In Oklahoma, teachers rank 50th in the nation in pay. For teaching children and hopefully leading them to better lives. They deserve more. In many innner cities, schools are down right horrible. Schools in Blanchard, OK can't even afford heating for their schools. Schools in Enid, OK can't afford A/C. Many schools in Texas are sub par in their facilities. These are just examples from my first hand experience. And we do seperate the proverbial "cream from the crop" in this country. It's those who have money who get the nice schools. Everyone else gets the shaft and are forced to make due with the meager supplies they have. Our colleges are some of the best in the world and I should hope so. I'm paying upwards of $60,000 for my education.Quote:
Originally posted by IronPlant
I have no idea why you are complaing about our level of education. There is a very simple reason why the U.S. ranks lower on that list. The U.S. ranks lower becuase we let ever tom dick and harry take the test, while in other countries they only let the best take it. Anyone who has been in the U.S. puplic school system should have easy time understand why letting "Everyone" take that test would bring us down. For someone who knows so much, how can you ignore the fact that most nations have their school systems set up differently?
SC
Pfff, the Habs SUCK! Go Nordiques! Oh wait, I forgot that Canada has turned against their NHL teams.Quote:
Originally posted by Brisco Bold
I cheer for the HABS! Been a habs fan all my life.
(Oh and by the way, the Wild own the NHL and all of you!)
I don't think that; I just think they send all the crazies and nutballs to Toronto. :chick:Quote:
Originally posted by sggg
I'd like to point out that people in the rest of Canada think Toronto (and the rest of Southern Ontario) is practically American and we don't like them very much. ;)
Anywho, I'm personally fed up with all this war in iraq business. At this point I won't be surprised if you do go and north korea comes along and rams some nukers up the ass when you're facing the other direction. Fight it, solve it diplomatically, whatever. Worlds gonna get fucked up soon regardless. December 21, 2012! That's when all our appliances will come to life and attack us! :chick: :chick:
!!!Quote:
Originally posted by cka
December 21, 2012! That's when all our appliances will come to life and attack us!
Shit! I am going to start building a shelter right now and load it up with bottled water and Tins of Tuna!
If my argument is baseless, then so is yours because even you just admitted that PSC books contain just as much bias as any other.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
PSC books aren't like the bible and in my opinion, this is a bad analogy. PSC books are as prone to as much bias as any other book, but what else should I go to? The only record we have of founding of this country is in books. Your argument on that is pretty baseless.
"May or may not believe"? Nobody has stated anything doubting that you may have faith in people. I, in general, do not. And I do not place all of my faith in any system, so please do not hurl such false accusations at me. You don't even know me, you don't know anything about me and with that knowledge, I fail to see how you can make such assumptions.Quote:
Contrary to what you may or may not believe, I DO have faith in all people. I don't however place all my faith in the system, like you and Carter do.
I will concede this, you are correct. Clinton did bomb Kosovo without permission. However, it is not showing more power for the executive branch. The House and Senate, if they felt inclined, could've impeached him for this. It's like a company, should the President make a bad decision, the board can get rid of him.Quote:
I think it's pretty obvious that the executive branch has steadily grown more powerful. Clinton didn't ask permission to bomb Kosovo.
But he still did. I'm sure every President that led us into war would have preferred to not have to go to the Senate. This, however, is not pointing to power but its limits. He was forced? That means the system is working with Presidents who pay attention.Quote:
Bush 43 had to be forced to ask for permission to send troops to Iraq.
I'm vaguely aware of these, so I'd have to read up on them in order to have a full opinion on the matter.Quote:
But if you want some general examples, how about the War Powers Act? And the Power of the Purse? Both of those were given to the president when they were original sole reign of Congress.
I will, because it is. I'm living it. My parents are living it. I work with an immigrant from Taiwan. He's living it. I've met an immigrant from Mexico (I believe), she's living it. There are many people every day living the American dream and just because you're failing to grasp it, doesn't mean it doesn't exist.Quote:
Don't tell me the American Dream is a reality.
To use such an argument would be like an Athiest telling a Christian God doesn't exist.
Here's where you're confusing the American Dream with Hollywood. I'm not rich. At all. I'm actually losing money currently on my venture. The American Dream is consistent with the universal rights of humanity: Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness.Quote:
How many people, besides Carter, succeed in the U.S. to the level that they expect.
If your basis for measuring the success of the American dream is financial, then you obviously are not in tune with most people. Most people simply want to just get along in life. Make their money, live their lives, retire and watch the grandkids grow up.
Because those aren't the universal rights of humanity but means to enhancing those rights.Quote:
I'd like everyone to be able to recieve no cost health care, higher quality education, a cleaner environment. Why can't Americans have these things?
Those are things that must be attained by people at their own cost. The government's job is to protect the people and their rights, not sustain their living.
I didn't say we're the best. And, have you ever gotten into an accident? They don't turn you down. You get in. Why should they offer free medical attention? Hospitals need to make money.Quote:
If we're the best why can't I go to hospital after a car accident and get free medical attention?
When their economy is killing ours, then let us complain. While we may be behind their grades, it seems that this hasn't had any major detriment to the country as a whole; our military is strongest, our economy the biggest and our standard of living the highest. I agree, our education system isn't top-notch, and I'd like it to be. But the only way we're going to make the public schools shape up is to allow competition.Quote:
Why does the U.S. consistently rank behind several European and Asian countries in term of education?
So do I, but I'm not paying for them. I pay too much in taxes as it is. I'm not adding to that.Quote:
I want those things for my fellow citizens.
Largely, yes. Because that's the way most humans want to live. They don't want to be bothered or stressed by politics or world events. They want to go to their job, come home, eat supper, watch survivor, have sex and go to sleep.Quote:
I don't call the American population ignorant out of disgust, but it is the truth.
This is true.Quote:
I'm not enlightened, but I am informed and that's more than many can say.
I believe it is the right of every person in this world to be able to state their opinion on any matter.Quote:
I don't claim to know everything, but I believe it is my right as an American to say what I feel is right.
I've already stated my opinion and why I think you're wrong; and you've stated your opinion on why you think I'm wrong. I think we've both done our jobs at pointing each other out.Quote:
If you could show me one instance where I am honestly mistaken, I'll be glad to admit it.
I'd like to see you quote me on that. I rarely use curse words and haven't said "bullshit" on these forums once, I believe.Quote:
But saying that everything I say is bullshit isn't fair.
But in any case, you just said that you have a right to state your opinion. Then so do I. Why you should be able to tell me that I'm wrong and then disallow me to do the same, is beyond me.
Eh? Well. I guess Minnesota is in the north-center of the US, so, this may br true.Quote:
Carter, you are the epitome of all that is wrong with our country.
I don't feel as though I am superior to anyone. I'm just stating my opinions and direct responses to you. Again, why you are allowed to have/state an opinion and I am not, sounds a tad hypocritical.Quote:
You are condescending and yours are the points without any substance.
There you go again, SC. Making accusations. This isn't true. This isn't remotely true.Quote:
Reading over your last post makes me realize how unwilling you are to even consider another viewpoint.
Here's the problem I have arguing with fine people such as yourself. While you expect me to succumb to your vision or your opinion and I hope you do the same, we both leave with different thoughts. I think, well, whatever; that's his opinion. And you come out saying that, just because I don't agree with you, I'm somehow closed minded.
I'm confident and comfortable with my beliefs. If you knew me, and you don't, you'd know that I am an extremely critical person. I'm critical of everything. Your thoughts and mine. If I don't really believe something, after taking a harsh look at it, I don't believe it. So please, don't make assumptions that cannot be and will not be proven.
Quote me. I never said such a thing; you're again saying the the American Dream is a thing of complete financial-base instead of an ideal.Quote:
Your answer to someone living in poverty in the U.S. is for them to leave?
Have you ever lived in poverty? If so, you'll know what its like.
I have. My dad, one year, made $5000 for a family of four. That's $1250 per person for a period of 12 months. But he and my mom didn't complain. They did the best they could for us. Despite our "poverty"- if we must use such vocabulary -we lived the American Dream. We were free. We could do what we wanted.
So again, I ask that you don't paint me as making such statements. I've been in "poverty", known people in "poverty" and seen what it does to you. And never have I seen someone blame the American system for their problems or deny the American Dream.
I'm not. Everyone who has spent their lives growing up in their own country thinks the same way. It's the only way we can think. How can I base my opinions on life in Belgium if I haven't grown up there? Sure, I could go spend a year there but even still, it doesn't make me an expert.Quote:
I'm sorry your views of the world are based solely on life in America.
Yeah, because Americans are either in the military or on vacation.Quote:
Life for an American in Korea isn't anything like life for a Korean in Korea.
I'm not taking your word for it, I'm taking my friend's mom's word for it, because she grew up there.Quote:
Don't take my word for it, find out for yourself.
Define "intelligent". Is "intelligent" agreeing with everything you say?Quote:
If you can ever have an intelligent discussion on any topic, I would love to discuss it.
You're the one who just implied I was unintelligent, put words into my mouth and hurled false accusations- all because I didn't subscribe to your opinion. Who are you to talk about putting people down?Quote:
But you just put people down that don't subscribe to your narrow view.
Since when have you "proposed an opposing view"?Quote:
My point in writing all the things I do is first tell people what I think and second to propose an opposing view for consideration.
I have been posting my opinions, as you have, for this entire thread.Quote:
Too bad you can't do the same.
Wow. Jimmy, thats some of the best Owning I have ever seen on these boards. I once again have to salute you.
Their province is built on oil money, too. The similarities are wacky. Unfortunately you're right, most of the Texans I've come across haven't been "Texans" at all - they've been reasonable, fairly cosmopolitan people lacking both giant Budweiser belt buckles and 6-shooters. Not even cowboy hats. It's disapointing to have great stereotypes like that broken, really.Quote:
Originally posted by Tracer
I've heard that more than once... I suppose Alberta is more Texas than Texas is.
ºTracer
Oh wow thats a dissapointing statement.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Don't tell me the American Dream is a reality. How many people, besides Carter, succeed in the U.S. to the level that they expect.
I can think of many people that are living "the American Dream".
Me for example.
My parents didn't have a ton of money but we did okay. They didn't have enough money to put me through college.
I moved out when I was 16, started in retail, moved into retail management, then got a decent paying ($12 an hour with no college was pretty good at the time) job in tech support.
I further honed my design abilties (on the side, in my free time) and then moved into a career doing print/multimedia design and development.
I bought my first new car at 21, bought my own home at 22, and I now make more money at 25 than my father did when he retired.
It's all about hardwork. The money and oppurtunties are there if people want them. Too bad a majority of people are lazy and come from a past where everything was given to them. They won't "stoop down" to jobs they feel are beneath them.
That's why I think that that people from other countries do so well after they move here. Where as the average American would scoff at working tweleve hour days at a gas station, you have these people coming here that had nothing, and making $7 an hour is an amazing thing.
The same people work for five years, 50-60-70 hours a week, saving the whole time...then they buy their very own goddam gas station. All the same time we have people bitching about the American Dream being dead.
Sorry about the long rant, but even in the fucked up times we live in, America is an amazing place and I hate when people wax ignorant about it.
That is what most want out of life. Problem is that there are still many who can't even manage that and it isn't their fault. Their are people living in slums, working 3-4 jobs at less than minimum wage. They have no time to look after their kids who then become trouble makers. Those people aren't living any dreams, just one big nightmare.Quote:
Originally posted by Jimmy Carter
If your basis for measuring the success of the American dream is financial, then you obviously are not in tune with most people. Most people simply want to just get along in life. Make their money, live their lives, retire and watch the grandkids grow up.
So people aren't allowed to live a healthy life? People aren't allowed to be a productive part of society? By your statement, you make the U.S. sound like some sort of country club where only those with the means to make it are allowed these benefits. I believe our government by the people for the people has an obligation to look after every one of its' citizens.Quote:
Because those aren't the universal rights of humanity but means to enhancing those rights.
Those are things that must be attained by people at their own cost. The government's job is to protect the people and their rights, not sustain their living.
Yes I have. They wouldn't admit me unless I had insurance verification, which I made up in order to get treatment.Quote:
I didn't say we're the best. And, have you ever gotten into an accident? They don't turn you down. You get in. Why should they offer free medical attention? Hospitals need to make money.
Last time I checked our economy wasn't fairing all that well. The only way to make public schools shape up is to better fund them.Quote:
When their economy is killing ours, then let us complain. While we may be behind their grades, it seems that this hasn't had any major detriment to the country as a whole; our military is strongest, our economy the biggest and our standard of living the highest. I agree, our education system isn't top-notch, and I'd like it to be. But the only way we're going to make the public schools shape up is to allow competition.
I'd gladly pay extra tax for all these benefits. Even for you, Carter.Quote:
So do I, but I'm not paying for them. I pay too much in taxes as it is. I'm not adding to that.
I can't argue here.Quote:
Largely, yes. Because that's the way most humans want to live. They don't want to be bothered or stressed by politics or world events. They want to go to their job, come home, eat supper, watch survivor, have sex and go to sleep.
My bad. You confuse me sometimes. One minute you post a complete bashfest on anything I say, the next you post something very civil. If you made more posts like this, then I wouldn't be so jumpy. You make a valid point, though.Quote:
There you go again, SC. Making accusations. This isn't true. This isn't remotely true.
Here's the problem I have arguing with fine people such as yourself. While you expect me to succumb to your vision or your opinion and I hope you do the same, we both leave with different thoughts. I think, well, whatever; that's his opinion. And you come out saying that, just because I don't agree with you, I'm somehow closed minded.
I'm confident and comfortable with my beliefs. If you knew me, and you don't, you'd know that I am an extremely critical person. I'm critical of everything. Your thoughts and mine. If I don't really believe something, after taking a harsh look at it, I don't believe it. So please, don't make assumptions that cannot be and will not be proven.
My statement:Quote:
Quote me. I never said such a thing; you're again saying the the American Dream is a thing of complete financial-base instead of an ideal.
This is an illusion. How about all the people that the American Dream doesn't help?
Your response:
Helps me perfectly, thank you. If it's not working for someone else, they should try another country. America is the easiest to make a good living in.
Yes I have lived in poverty for most of my life. Only until I went to college did things begin to turn around for me. My parents had money when I was a kid. But when Reagan fucked up our economy, both of my parents lost everything. Our house, money, everything gone. Of course, my parents divorced and my family has never been the same. My mother still lives in gross poverty and it kills me that I can't help her because I can barely support myself. My father went back to his country and was able to recover and come back to the U.S. But he is by no means well-off. So the system destroyed my family. Granted my parents aren't exactly the best for each other, we had a good life. My sister is a junkie who doesn't have a place to live. Where's her American Dream? She got kicked off welfare, even though she works two jobs, which she has both recently lost. But that is just my family. We don't have it as bad as a whole swath of other American citizens. Where is their dream? How about their kids who are born in poverty and squalor? When everyone has an equal opportunity to make a decent life for themselves then I'll agree with you. I'm not talking about equal outcome. But everyone deserves the opportunity to at least have the good shot at it.Quote:
Have you ever lived in poverty? If so, you'll know what its like.
I have. My dad, one year, made $5000 for a family of four. That's $1250 per person for a period of 12 months. But he and my mom didn't complain. They did the best they could for us. Despite our "poverty"- if we must use such vocabulary -we lived the American Dream. We were free. We could do what we wanted.
So again, I ask that you don't paint me as making such statements. I've been in "poverty", known people in "poverty" and seen what it does to you. And never have I seen someone blame the American system for their problems or deny the American Dream.
SC
I don't know who you refer to, but get your head out of suburbia. I work (as in a sociological sense, not as a co-worker) with people who have 3 jobs, 2 kids and no money. They aren't making any progress. They're lazy? I know another woman who works at the sewage treatment plant and then works as a janitor at Norman High. People will do what they have to. Your views on this subject, quite frankly, sicken me. There isn't opportunity for everyone. There certainly isn't money for everyone. This is the most ridiculous assumption I've seen in this thread. But you're right. America is a good place to live. But it can be so much better.Quote:
Originally posted by Kidnemo
It's all about hardwork. The money and oppurtunties are there if people want them. Too bad a majority of people are lazy and come from a past where everything was given to them. They won't "stoop down" to jobs they feel are beneath them.
Sorry about the long rant, but even in the fucked up times we live in, America is an amazing place and I hate when people wax ignorant about it.
SC
First of all: you don't know anything about me so don't make any assumptions about who or what I am.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
I don't know who you refer to, but get your head out of suburbia. I work (as in a sociological sense, not as a co-worker) with people who have 3 jobs, 2 kids and no money. They aren't making any progress. They're lazy? I know another woman who works at the sewage treatment plant and then works as a janitor at Norman High. People will do what they have to. Your views on this subject, quite frankly, sicken me. There isn't opportunity for everyone. There certainly isn't money for everyone. This is the most ridiculous assumption I've seen in this thread. But you're right. America is a good place to live. But it can be so much better.
Secondly I've went from living on the street for three monthes to living in the some of the worst straight up ghettos of New Orleans and Milwaukee.
Not the worst as in the worst parts of "suburbia", worst as in the apt. complex I lived in had crackheads you had to walk around to get to my place and shootings/stabbings frequently happened on my block.
I've seen some of the worst facets of society and I've also seen people (a neighbor went from crack addict/turning tricks to paralegal for example) who are truely down on their luck turn themselves around.
I will admit I saw a good amount of single mothers who had three kids working two jobs and not getting anywhere. But to some how blame this on "the system" because they can't make any headway is ludicris.
The choices you make in your life always have consequences, a majority (not children born into situations like that, though as they get older many of them continue to make choices to not better their situation...which comes back to the parents, but anyways) of the people who have fucked up lives are there because of choices they made, not because the system is somehow keeping them down.
People need to take responsibility for their actions and not continue to point the blame some place else.
Everyone has the same chances. If someone is poor there is a reason for it. Something happans to cause them to become poor, and there just might not be a way for that particular person to get out of it ever, but their kids can. Or kids can become worse off, people make mistakes and suffer from other peoples mistakes.
Giving MORE money to people is not going to solve the problems of humans having emotions and differant reactions to certain situations.
Some people are going to be rich, some are going to be poor, and some are going to be in the middle. NO amount of money will make anyone equal as long as ONE person is more greedy than another.
You make it sound so easy.Quote:
Originally posted by Clash_Master
Everyone has the same chances. If someone is poor there is a reason for it. Something happans to cause them to become poor, and there just might not be a way for that particular person to get out of it ever, but their kids can. Or kids can become worse off, people make mistakes and suffer from other peoples mistakes.
Giving MORE money to people is not going to solve the problems of humans having emotions and differant reactions to certain situations.
Some people are going to be rich, some are going to be poor, and some are going to be in the middle. NO amount of money will make anyone equal as long as ONE person is more greedy than another.
SC
I make what sound easy? I offered no solutions.
I think that the problem in this thread is that a lot of the posters here simply have no idea what life and politics is like outside of the US or how other governments work... I am not saying that to be insulting, I assure you! The US gov't woks hard to keep the people from knowing or caring about the rest of the world for just that reason¹. For the powers that be in the US notions of univesal health care, socialism, just society, and equality are tantamount to the plague. But please do yourselves a favour and actually learn about how other societies work. That does not mean read what Time magazine or some right wing political essay says about them eithe. It means that you should examine a wide variety of credible sources. Have an open mind and look at ways you can improve your own country, instead of defending the obscene.
Fo example, read about counties like Norway, Sweden, Canada, Germany, Japan and so on and see how the government works for the people. Yes, people pay high taxes but they get so much more. Personally, I love paying higher taxes here in Canada because I see the benefit. In the US it made me ill to know where the money I was paying was going (and not going). The incentive fo things like puclc health care and education is not accumulating profits for the elites, but to make it available to as many people as possible. That's good!
You can try to debunk this with as much American propaganda as you'd like but the very simple fact of the matter is that it works and that people are happier and better off because of it.
Plus, this illusion some of you guys have of the "American dream" is exactly what pacifies Americans despite the obvious statistics. 99% of the wealth in the US is in the hands of 1% of the population. There are plenty of well to do people but they are dwarfed by the poor. There is not enough opportunity fo them no matter how hard they work. Education is prohibitively expensive. Universal health care does not exist. There is no safety net to help those who have experienced misfortune which will help them suvive and get back on their feet. There are tonnes of exceptions (like Kidnemo) but that's the sad reality for far too many of the people and it does not have to be that way if the US as a country was not run by the elites for the elites.
Personally, I think everyone deserves a chance for a good life. Everyone deserves a right to meet their potential and live well. I don't believe in a government that is set up fo the sole pupose of greed and domination which manipulates it's own people and abuses the third world. I believe in socialism. I believe in equality of opportunity. In fairness of health care. I believe in equal access for education. I believe that the welfare of the whole of society is far more impotant than the miniscule chance that someone could amass unholy amounts of wealth (aka the "American Dream"). I believe in govenmental stuctures where the people have a right to proportional representation and can reasonably work change and influence policies. Etc Etc Etc.
No country in the world is perfect, of course. Every place has it's problems. But some places, like the US, have far more than others. Unlike the US, there are many counties who provide so much more for their people though. All the people, and the people are happier and have a greater quality of life. (To say nothing of the fact that their govenments are held accountable fo their actions as well)
I believe that the all people (especially American people, good people!) deserve these things as well. It is my great hope that some of these things will actually come to my former home in the future, as bleak as the odds may seem right now and in spite of people like Jimmy Carter.
Footnote:
¹ = The US has always been ambivalent about European unification. It has obvious advantages for US economic and strategic power, but there has always been concern that Europe might move towards an independent course. Furthermore, the social market system in Europe has always been regarded as a threat, rather in the way that Canada's health care system has been feared: these are "viruses" that might "infect" the US population, to borrow the terminology of US planners when they moved to crush independent social and economic development throughout the third world. These concerns have motivated US policies towards Europe (and Japan, and elsewhere) since World War II, constantly taking new forms. They were, for example, expressed by Henry Kissinger in his "Year of Europe" address in 1973, when he instructed Europe that it had only "regional responsibilities" within an "overall framework of order" managed by the US government. NATO was conceived, in part, as a way to ensure US control over Europe -- not without support from sectors of European elites, who despise the social market system, and fear European independence, for much the same reasons as their counterparts here. The US is strongly in favor of the accession of the Eastern European countries to the European Union for these reasons. Washington expects to have enough control over them so that they will dilute tendencies towards independence in Europe. And there is quite unconcealed exultation that their reservoir of cheap and easily exploited labor will undermine the European welfare state and the rights of working people, and will drive Europe to the US model of low wages, high workload, limited benefits and job security, high concentration of wealth -- and general economic performance pretty similar to Europe's by most measures. And that has obvious appeal to the corporate sector in Europe as well. (Noam Chomsky)
None of my posts have footnotes :(
Thats becouse you suck.
On my next birthday when I blow out the candles I'm going to be wishing for you and your family to die Almaci.
As much as I'm trying to believe you, I have a hard time believing that anyone working a minimum of three jobs, even below minimum wage, couldn't get out of the slums. And I have a hard time believing that these people work not only one, but 3-4 jobs whose employers are breaking the law in wages.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
That is what most want out of life. Problem is that there are still many who can't even manage that and it isn't their fault. Their are people living in slums, working 3-4 jobs at less than minimum wage. They have no time to look after their kids who then become trouble makers. Those people aren't living any dreams, just one big nightmare.
As it is, McDonald's/Wal Mart are at the bottom of the work chain and they often pay more than minimum wage. So, I apologize if what you say is true, but I find it so unbelieveable that I just cannot possibly accept it.
There you go again, SC.Quote:
So people aren't allowed to live a healthy life?
I did not imply nor did I say that people are not "allowed" to a healthy life. I said, people do not have a right to a healthy life. It is not an inalienable right. If I wanted health insurance and I wanted to go to the doctor for monthly checkups, I could. If I wanted to do it, I'd sign up for insurance and pay for it.
Do you enjoy twisting words? I never said people are not "allowed" to be productive. Everyone should be productive.Quote:
People aren't allowed to be a productive part of society?
No, I'm saying that people have a choice for benefits.Quote:
By your statement, you make the U.S. sound like some sort of country club where only those with the means to make it are allowed these benefits.
I believe they have an obligation to protect us and our rights.Quote:
I believe our government by the people for the people has an obligation to look after every one of its' citizens.
What city are you in? I almost lopped a finger off and they took me right in.Quote:
Yes I have. They wouldn't admit me unless I had insurance verification, which I made up in order to get treatment.
I said when ours is worse. It's still the best.Quote:
Last time I checked our economy wasn't fairing all that well.
We've been doing this for years and our schools have gotten only worse. The education problem is like a fire and throwing more money on it may smother it for a minute or two but in the end, the fire will just get bigger. There is a difference between fixing a problem and throwing money at it.Quote:
The only way to make public schools shape up is to better fund them.
Well, that's nice of you, but I wouldn't. If someone needs my help, they can ask me. I'm not going to have the government rob me of the money I worked for so that someone else gets all of the benefits.Quote:
I'd gladly pay extra tax for all these benefits. Even for you, Carter.
And by your own admission right here, I did not say that those in poverty should leave this country.Quote:
My statement:
This is an illusion. How about all the people that the American Dream doesn't help?
Your response:
Helps me perfectly, thank you. If it's not working for someone else, they should try another country. America is the easiest to make a good living in.
Fact: During Reagan's administration every income bracket experience growth and the economy grew at a rate unseen since the administration of John F. Kennedy.Quote:
Yes I have lived in poverty for most of my life. Only until I went to college did things begin to turn around for me. My parents had money when I was a kid. But when Reagan fucked up our economy, both of my parents lost everything.
I hate to sound so jaded. I honestly, really do. But it was your sister's choice to become a junkie. Nobody else's.Quote:
Our house, money, everything gone. Of course, my parents divorced and my family has never been the same. My mother still lives in gross poverty and it kills me that I can't help her because I can barely support myself. My father went back to his country and was able to recover and come back to the U.S. But he is by no means well-off. So the system destroyed my family. Granted my parents aren't exactly the best for each other, we had a good life. My sister is a junkie who doesn't have a place to live. Where's her American Dream?
An airplane crashes tomorrow. Along with all of airplane crashes beforehand, this adds up to be a huge number. Now, according to your logic, despite the facts that airline travel is safer than car travel, we should issue a statement ignoring the facts and state because of this crash and the ones before it, airline travel isn't safe.Quote:
She got kicked off welfare, even though she works two jobs, which she has both recently lost. But that is just my family. We don't have it as bad as a whole swath of other American citizens. Where is their dream? How about their kids who are born in poverty and squalor? When everyone has an equal opportunity to make a decent life for themselves then I'll agree with you. I'm not talking about equal outcome. But everyone deserves the opportunity to at least have the good shot at it.
I don't buy it. The facts prove that America is the easiest place to make a living in. The facts and statistics prove it.
I've met many people who're in the poverty level. And they don't bitch about America, they don't piss and moan about how the American Dream isn't working for them and they sure as hell don't blame the "system" for their problems.
My dad came from a dirt poor family. They were so poor that the kids were kicked out at the age of 16. Just ten years ago, Dad made only $5000 for the entire family. The entire family. If someone is working 3-4 jobs, even below minimum wage, there is no way in heck that they made less than $5000 in one year. If you take two full time jobs and work them a year at $1 an hour, you get at least $4160.
The point is, my Dad now has his own company. He is very well off right now. He never ever felt the need to blame someone or something else for his problems.
Blaming people gets you nowhere.
Nice footnote, sggg. Chomsky is a respected and influential linguist, which is where I mostly know him from. That article was an interesting read.
Thing is, unlike me youre probably not even joking.Quote:
Originally posted by Kidnemo
On my next birthday when I blow out the candles I'm going to be wishing for you and your family to die Almaci.
Why would you say that? Have I ever posted anything in the past (or this thread) to make you think that way?Quote:
Originally posted by Almaci
Thing is, unlike me youre probably not even joking.
Or are you being teh funny now too?
(For those people sitting in the cheap seats I was joking...you guys in these political threads are to serious, I'll be over in Game Discussion if you need me :/ )
Agreed. We political warriors get too serious, but it happens.Quote:
Originally posted by Kidnemo
...you guys in these political threads are to serious...
I mean nothing personal against anyone I'm in discussion with. I just join in because ... I don't know why. It's fun, I suppose. Sharpens my wits and beliefs, hopefully.