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Socioeconomic affirmative action would be nice, but I think it's a little too much for us to handle. People like Carter and Stone don't even want to drop a little extra for universal health care so why would they (and many others) want to help poor people. Where would you draw the line? The poverty line? That's way too many people. It would be nice, but I just don't think it's feasible. Try to dissuade me though. I could be wrong. I'm looking for a little light in this debate.
SC
spacecowboy, you ass - was there a "Stone's Health Care Views" thread I forgot about contributing to? What do you know about what I think on health care? Universal health care is an important goal - whether a Government program is the best way to go about securing that is completely, entirely, 100% unclear.
Look - the right sort of "socionomic affirmative action" is a free market. That affirms everybody - and provides the most benefit for the most people. Go over to Europe and look at what the average person sacrifices in order to get their affirmative action, welfare, and the rest of it. Everyone would suffer if the US adopted some sort of bizarre European socialist system.
My apologies for the inference, but you did make my point. I've been to Europe. It's not like the people are miserable. Everyone I've met loves that they have all of these benefits. Perhaps you've been meeting the wrong people. To think, with the $80 billion we're using to fight this war, everyone in the US could have free health care for life. *sigh*
SC
By whose estimates (sounds interesting, though). Do you mean every legal citizen alive today, or every legal American citizen ever, now into perpetuity?
$80 billion is probably about $3 billion a year adjusted for inflation, if you're receiving it annually forever, right? So, that's...$10 a citizen a year if we have 300 million Americans? And what if the population goes up?
Everyone in the US could have free Band-Aids for life; health care, I don't know.
Hehe. This is what AA always brings to mind for me... It is highly unfair for the 'vertically challenged' to be underpresented in sports such as basketBall. It's not their fault, they were just born short ;). Should they be passed over constantly for a tall black player, even if their skills may be comparable? It's not fair I say... not fair!! That's pretty much what I observed in High School; All black basketball teams with no chance in hell for short whites or asians to get on.. Heh.Quote:
Originally posted by MVS
Seriously, white men are statistically underrepresented in almost all but Hockey and Soccer.
What we need to do is put white people with lesser skils on BasketBall teams to even things out.
Yeah...
Anyway, I'm against AA pure and simple. If you want a color blind society, it needs to end. Everytime I hear the word 'minority', I honestly just think of a minority grouping itself off against the majority in order to perform somekind of 'shakedown' tactic to obtain preferential treatment (in some way or another) or something. It just always has that negative connotation to me.
My parents are immigrants, and we're technically a minority.. I, having been born and raised in Chicago, consider myself a member of America.. I simply consider myself an American... Not [insert minority/race here]-American... Just an American individual who has oppurtunities just like the 250 million other American individuals. I don't divide myself off as a member of some minority and then attempt to employ shakedown tactics against the rest of my fellow Americans to give me/us special treatment, a free pass or whatever... Why?? Because I don't want to be on the receiving end of it or anyone else for that matter - so I'm not gonna perpetuate it.
So yeah, I prefer a merit-based society as opposed to one that gives special treatment to someone based on skin-pigmentation levels. Martin Luther King fought to end this form of racism, not to replace it with a form of reverse-racism. The civil rights movement was to achieve equality under the constitution, to be recognized by it, which it did... But, I believe that movement was hijacked and went so far as to end one form of racism and replace it with another. Stop all discrimination and racism, don't employ further racism... Don't employ another 'wrong' to rectify a past 'wrong'. In my opinion, it only further divides and separates us... It just continues to create/perpetuate a form of division and supports the 'us vs. them' mentality.
On another note, I will say I do resent the "reverse-racism is bullshit" comment... My high school had a very large black composition and it was very real to me - from what I saw and dealt with. There was the 'cracker', 'whitey' comments.. There was the "oh, you enslaved my ancestors long ago, so I'm entitled to be racist to you whiteys now" mentality... Under that context is how I define and experienced reverse-racism. So, it was and is very real to me... Of course, I can only speak for my high school, neighborhood, and city. But still, I don't think you can trivialize it like that and say "oh, it's just bullshit" cause it's not :/...
Hehehe... priceless.Quote:
Originally posted by spacecowboy
Ninjas have Real Ultimate Power. But they don't need Affirmative Action. If they don't get in, they'll flip out and kill someone who did. Then there is a spot open for them. Ninja's are cool and by cool I mean totally sweet. :lol:
Well I didn't actually mean it like that. I meant that instead of spending this money to fight a ridiculous war, we could move towards implementing a universal health care plan. Not that the $80 billion would cover everyone. My bad for not clarifying.Quote:
Originally posted by Stone
By whose estimates (sounds interesting, though). Do you mean every legal citizen alive today, or every legal American citizen ever, now into perpetuity?
$80 billion is probably about $3 billion a year adjusted for inflation, if you're receiving it annually forever, right? So, that's...$10 a citizen a year if we have 300 million Americans? And what if the population goes up?
Everyone in the US could have free Band-Aids for life; health care, I don't know.
SC
Let's toss race aside for a sec.Quote:
Originally posted by diffusionx
In all seriousness Stone, do you REALLY see this happening with affirmative action as it stands today? In fact, let me ask you - you go to Cornell, a place with, I assume, a lot of wealthy rich white kids. How many of those white kids have been screwed out of a job or admission to a college because they're white? In what way are their opportunities lessened because they are white?
No offense Jimmy, but its easy to say when you live in a state that is almost 90% white
All in all, Im in favor of affirmative action. I know, I know, a lot of people bring up "reverse racism", and Im sure that may happen here or there... but in all seriousness, how much can it happen really? Can it compare to all the racism that blacks and latinos face? Hardly. White people have it good in the USA. Blacks and Latinos... not so much. There is a very real class system in America, and race makes up a large part of it.
I mean, Im in Los Angeles, the most diverse city in the country, if not the world, and I swear to you all the people I see scrubbing the toilets and cleaning bathrooms are latinos, all the people driving buses are black, etc. How many black people do you think live in Bel-Air? How many blacks attend Harvard-Westlake (a tip-top private HS here)? I hope you see my point.
Diff, do you think it'd be fair to take someone who's scrubbing toilets, and toss them into a uni? Using that as an example makes it sound like you think people in meanial jobs are well-deserving of a college education, but can't go due to...I dunno. Like I said before, if you want more people (or minorities) in college, you need to give them a way to be prepared for it. I always thought community colleges served part of that function, but things still suck.
btw, what part of LA are you in?
Although I heavily agree with Master, I have yet to see a feasible attempt made to modernize Affirmative Action. Couple that with the fact that we can all honestly admit to ourselves that there is a reasonably high number of businesses and colleges that would misuse a socioeconomic based policy as a means of not hiring minorities. There are still schools and businesses that would prefer not to have any minority taint their halls, and wouldn't were it not for AA.
For those who argue that it’s like saying you can’t get into Harvard on your own merits misunderstand what AA is set up to do. AA is not an instant “Get into Harvard, do not pass Go” pass, it’s a means of giving yourself a small edge, that’s all. It’s like when Winthorp couldn’t get into Harvard until his parents made a healthy donation to the university. Accept that Winthorp is assured entry after that, and your left to fight it out with other qualified applicants. Besides I do believe that an applicant’s background, including living conditions, are also taken into account when qualifying a student for enrollment.
I dislike the assumption that if we eradicate anything hinting to race that we would be truly equal, because we wouldn’t. The poorly educated parents of minorities take a less proactive role in the education of their children, and what few who care, use negative reinforcement as opposed to positive or assistance. If you give the few students that have made an earnest enough attempt to better themselves through education, so that they stand only an inch below their competition, a chance, then they will grow up to value their education’s more and impress that value upon their children. So that their children will do better and have a better chance at life.
Community colleges are a double-edged sword. In Worcester, Ma. we had an excellent community college with a wide variety of course selection. And in Bucks County, Pa. they have one of the top 100 rated community colleges in the world. However down here in Va. I can honestly say that the community colleges are, for the lack of a better term, a fucking joke. You’d be better off with no education applying to Harvard than you would with Blue Ridge Community College on your application. Also saying that a student is unprepared for Harvard because you assume they are unqualified comes across as well…racist. Why is it that you assume that a student with a 3.6 GPA and a 1250 on the SAT’s is less prepared for Harvard than one with a 3.8 GPA and a 1350 on the SAT’s? I mean it’s not like they are letting students with 2.8’s and 800’s. These students have worked hard to achieve what they have and, though they may not have scored as statistically high in either GPA and SAT’s as their competition, they have made the best of their situation and deserve a chance. Besides, and I welcome you to use this against me, isn’t it up to the admissions board to decide upon what criteria an applicant is to be judged?
I’m going to use a ridiculous analogy right now but before you comment think hard about it:
If an applicant was required to produce water in place of scholastic achievement and one applicant, who was from a land rich with rivers and lakes, presented 3 full jugs of water, while another, from a barren land of nothing more than rocks, had taken a stone and from that single stone managed to produce only a thimble of water, who do you believe made better use of their resources? Who do you think really deserves to get into the university?
oh yeah, I think too much money is spent on public schools already without any readout of performance getting better. Would you put more money in a car that just gets worse and worse? At what point would you drop it and get a new car? It sounds trivial, but think about it; at what point do you draw the line and come to the realization that pumping more money blindly into public schools does not equal a better performance or output.
The way I think of it is every person who pays taxes for pub. ed. is an 'owner' of the system. If you owned your own business and saw product turning out bad, would you just go "OH, all we need to do is adjust more revenue into production?" How long would it take of increased budget and still failing product before you decide that, money isn't an issue, but rather the process of making the product?
Call it cold or utilitarian, or whatnot, but try to apply the same logic to education. How much more money does it take to 'fix' the system? Or is there something else wrong with it, something which is much more difficult to tackle and fix than just increasing taxes? Is that why we cry for more taxes? Because we KNOW there's a bigger problem here, but we really don't want to tangle with it, so just figure 'hey, hijack the wages of people a little more and let's hope it all blows over?'
The problem with this arguement is, honestly, we do a disservice to let these 'closet racist' companies stay alive under AA. You require a quota, they fit it, no nasty lawsuits, and they live on. The cold nature of a free market dictates a sink-or-swim basis. If you're hiring for whatever position, and the best person for the job is a 'minority' and you don't hire just on basis of skin, you've effectively shot yourself in the foot. If you don't gobble up talent based on talent's sake, soon your competition has them. They outpreform you, you die. Done deal.Quote:
Originally posted by ShineAqua
Although I heavily agree with Master, I have yet to see a feasible attempt made to modernize Affirmative Action. Couple that with the fact that we can all honestly admit to ourselves that there is a reasonably high number of businesses and colleges that would misuse a socioeconomic based policy as a means of not hiring minorities. There are still schools and businesses that would prefer not to have any minority taint their halls, and wouldn't were it not for AA.
Besides, labor is a free market too. I dunno about anyone else, but I wouldn't want to sell my product (labor) to a place that inherently hated me. I'd find a place that was more tolerant and with the skills I have, I know they'll pay just as well.
No, I dont think thats fair, but thats not what AA is about. AA is not about giving everyone with dark skin an education. It's about helping those that help themselves. If someone was born in Newark/Compton and they toughed it out, didn't get involved with gangs, drugs, all that shit, worked their ass off, dealt with racism, dealt with the shit public education, still came out with *good qualifications... not great compared to Muffy of Madison, NJ (or Bel-Air), but damn fucking amazing considering what they had to work with*, then yes, I think they do deserve some help because they had to work way harder than Muffy ever did.Quote:
Originally posted by Hero
Let's toss race aside for a sec.
Diff, do you think it'd be fair to take someone who's scrubbing toilets, and toss them into a uni? Using that as an example makes it sound like you think people in meanial jobs are well-deserving of a college education, but can't go due to...I dunno. Like I said before, if you want more people (or minorities) in college, you need to give them a way to be prepared for it. I always thought community colleges served part of that function, but things still suck.
That's what AA is about, I think... not about helping the drug dealer down the street, or the gang member, or name-your-inner-city-stereotype... and its not about "screwing the white man"... its about helping those who are helping themselves, and just need a little bit of assistance.
And if AA ends up screwing Muffy over so that person could get into a college... oh well. Muffy's place in society is secure. That hypothetical person is still working for their own.
In the rich part. At UCLA. I can see Bel-Air from my window. Beverly Hills is about two minutes away. I mentioned the scrub toilets/construction thing because of the quite frankly disturbing dichotomy I see. Let me tell you ,I dont see waves of blacks driving into Bel-Air or picking up their girlfriends on campus in the new Lexus SUV. In fact, I dont see blacks at all doing any of these things. Plenty of white people, however. Ill tell you where I do see blacks though - driving the busses, serving food, or doing janitorial services. Its quite frankly kinda scary and disheartening. America's class/racial system is well-entrenched, no doubt about it.Quote:
btw, what part of LA are you in?