Thumbs up, America

http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSAttack0204/19_wounded-cp.html

In brief:

Quote:

---

The four Canadians were killed early Thursday when a U.S. F-16 fighter jet mistakenly bombed their unit during a live-fire exercise south of the base. They were Sgt. Marc Leger of Lancaster, Ont,; Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer of Montreal; Pte. Richard Green of Mill Cove, N.S. and Pte. Nathan Smith of Tatamagouche, N.S.

Eight other Canadians were injured -- two were being treated on the base and the others were airlifted to an American military hospital near the U.S. air base at Ramstein, Germany.

---

That is horrible. Makes me wonder if other nations pull the same crap and get it passed under the media radar. Nevertheless, how on earth did such an incident occur? Did the pilot fly to the wrong area, were the people supposed to be in the area, or what?

the situation gets messier by the day

He panicked, and dropped a bomb. Self-defence.

Quote:

---

The pilot of an American F-16 fighter jet who dropped a 250-kilogram laser-guided bomb on Canadian troops in Afghanistan, killing four and wounding eight, had ignored orders not to fire, sources say.

The U.S. National Guard pilot twice requested and was refused permission to drop his ordnance after spotting tracer fire in a desert training area near Kandahar, where paratroopers of the Princess Patricia's Canadian Light Infantry were on a live-fire exercise.

"When he saw tracer fire again, he bombed anyway," the source said.

---

Time to go home, America. Who are you fighting, anyway?

On the one hand, This all comes down to one idiot that decided he knew better than any of his superiors where his bombs should and should not be dropped.

On the other, just who decided that he could handle these bombs?

Good lord, I need to get out of this country- what I wouldn't give to be on the outside looking in (Physically, at least. I can't do anything for the fact that I was born here) the next time we go and do something like this.

I expect this kind of sillyness from Kenshin, not you Mode.

It's a shame. :( RIP :(

I don't think he's foffing about with Tomfoolery. this
is just a pitiful pathetic story. All I can do is shake
my head.

heard about it on the news:


"US accidently bombs Canadian troops"


"apologizes"


Now, I see HOW it happened, its pretty sad.



America's fighting the "evil-doers" for future reference.

Yeah, it is AMERICA'S fault that ONE jackass doesn't know what he is doing and does something stupid. That's a perfectly reasonable opinion. Right.

Why is there an America presence there to begin with, Shidoshi?
Why are Canadians there to begin with, Shidoshi?

"Why, we're fighting terrorism!"

What we've got here is a war of principles with no clear objectives, and no defined enemy. What is currently being accomplished over there could be done with a much smaller force, and certainly does not, and never did, require international assistance. Instead it's this ridiculous 'show of support,' that ends up getting even more innocent people killed, and I don't just mean those Canadians.

Innovative!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Mode7
Why is there an America presence there to begin with, Shidoshi?
Why are Canadians there to begin with, Shidoshi?

"Why, we're fighting terrorism!"

What we've got here is a war of principles with no clear objectives, and no defined enemy. What is currently being accomplished over there could be done with a much smaller force, and certainly does not, and never did, require international assistance. Instead it's this ridiculous 'show of support,' that ends up getting even more innocent people killed, and I don't just mean those Canadians.

---

Yeah, the world would be a lot happier if the "AMI's" would go it alone rather than have a coalition.

Really, that would be better received, don't you think?

What ARE you smoking? Pass it over.

For evil to triumph, good men need do nothing.

the kid needs to be killed for his stupidity plain and simple.

Actually, the part that annoys most Canadians is that it took your glorious leader over two days to publically admit it happened. He had 5 press conferences on Thursday, and didn't bring it up at a single one until someone asked him, to which he replied "I already talked to the prime minister" while exiting the room.

We're out there fighting HIS WAR. Because we're allies and friends. But no respect, it seems...

He finally had an impromptu press conference yesterday while he was out watching the Secret Service train, but I think it's because his handlers pressured him to.

Of course, this isn't the first time he's personally insulted us that way.


Now if the shoe were on the other foot, there would have been hell to pay. But since it happened to us, the american media and administration didn't really give a fuck...

are you more upset we bombed canadians, or that Bush didn't acknowledge it publicaly?

It's a shame, even though canada is a lesser country, with little to offer, they have always fought with the US, and were quite instrumental in several battles in WW2, and for that alone the canadain military gets respect from me.

We bomb our own people and all they get is the 'friendly fire thing' and a flag at the burial.

Sucks, but such is human war.

Yes, we're upset one of your cowboys dropped a bomb on our guys, even after he was told not to by ground control, and it is war and that sorta thing happens, but it's a total slap in the face that Georgie Boy there pretended it didn't even happen. That sorta thing makes us question why we're helping in the first place, and he's dissed us a few times like that since he's been in office.

Using one of your favourite terms, George W Bush is a "no-ball fuck."

Or as the Israelis said, "He barks alot, but he's useless."

"Cowboys".

Nice. Did you come up with that all by yourself or did you get some help with that stereotype?

AFAIK, George dubbya called your PM as soon as it happened.

But, you sound like someone searching for something to bitch about, so I digress. Who gives a shit what the Israeli's call him? Something about biting the hand that feeds you comes to mind here.

In any case, I'm CERTAIN that the pilot who pulled the trigger has to live with this for the rest of his life and I thank god I'm not in his shoes.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenshin
Yes, we're upset one of your cowboys dropped a bomb on our guys, even after he was told not to by ground control, and it is war and that sorta thing happens, but it's a total slap in the face that Georgie Boy there pretended it didn't even happen. That sorta thing makes us question why we're helping in the first place, and he's dissed us a few times like that since he's been in office.

Using one of your favourite terms, George W Bush is a "no-ball fuck."

Or as the Israelis said, "He barks alot, but he's useless."

---

canada is a free and independent nation, no? If this terrible action prompts them to withdraw any and all troops, that's unfortunate.

We've shot down our own helicopters, bombed our own troops. It's a shame whenever it happens, but it does happen.

War simply is not at that point where it is so far removed from human error, and that's unfortunate. Soldiers are soldiers and they die, hopefully not from an ally, but this is a action that has gone on in every war to date.

It's unfortunate, but a fact of life.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by haohmaru
But, you sound like someone searching for something to bitch about, so I digress.

---

Um, EXCUSE ME?

If Canada dropped a motherfucking bomb on American soldiers, there would be HELL TO PAY. It would be on all the news programs 24/7 for at least a week, and people would be shit-talking us like we're the biggest traitors in the world.

Now, how is our nation being upset that George W Bush didnt make a public statement so unjustified? When you dropped a bomb on one of your own soldiers last year, he held THREE seperate press conferences about it in one day. Yes, he called our prime minister, but that's just international protocol.

Anybody else hoping this turns into a war with the Cans? I do.

And no, I didn't come up with the "cowboy" term. All three of our national newspapers said that the US Air Force operates on a trigger-happy cowboy mentality. One of "shoot first, ask questions later."

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/99...trangelove.jpg

It's called intent. I doubt that pilot intended to bomb those canadian troops, just as the pilot did not intend to bomb close to the prison at mazziar-al-sharrif (sp) and kill american troops. Unfortunate, but it happens.

Be thankful we don't live in the days of WW2, where the 'friendly fire' incident that killed a vast majority of American soldiers, training to storm the beach, with English troops 'accidentally' given live ammunition, is held under wraps for decades.

It sucks, but it's not as if a bomber flew up to toronto and dropped a fuel air bomb.

Fuck, it's not even WORTH arguing about this with you guys. You're blinded by your own double-standards.

where is the doublestandard?

This has happened before, and will happen again, either by the US on the US, or the US against someone else, or someone else against the US.

Humans make mistakes. We aren't perfect down in the US, just better than you up north.


Okay, that last part was just for kicks :)

The double-standard is in the way it's handled. The whole thing was treated like it didn't even happen.

Trust me, if we did it to you, you'd expect us to at least publicly apologise instead of just sweeping it aside.

Fair enough. Post some proof of this in action, that would be interesting to see.

Oh, and it's still front page news in the LA Times, so that might not qualify as sweeping it aside.

http://www.latimes.com

If you're after equal respect status from the US, I'd give that pipe dream up now, it won't happen.

http://www.cnn.com/SHOWBIZ/Movies/99...trangelove.jpg

Oh, and Dr. Strangelove rocks the house :)

From the LA Times article itself:

Quote:

---

Canadian commentators, unimpressed by Chretien's report of his Wednesday night telephone call from the U.S. president, noted with some bitterness that Bush had failed to voice regret or dismay about the deaths in any of his public appearances Thursday. He might not have mentioned the incident at all, it was widely noted here, if it had not been for the shouted question of a Canadian reporter--to whom Bush responded by saying he had called Chretien on Wednesday.

"Canadians know tragic accidents happen," wrote Paul Wells, a National Post columnist. "They also know what outrage would ensue if the situation were reversed--if our snipers had killed U.S. soldiers--and our own leaders could offer the Americans no public display of remorse."

Canadian officials also expressed concern. "I think, undoubtedly, it would have been a comfort to the families to hear the president's own words through the media," said Deputy Prime Minister John Manley.

---

Yes, Dr. Strangelove is an awesome movie. I've seen it a few times.

I know what the article says, the fact that it is in one of the largest newspapers in the US market, should signify that this isn't a horrible accident that is now (doh, make this not) forgotten.

Time will pass, just like with that Japanese fishing boat, and things will get settled, with a formal apology and whatnot.

:(

So Kenshin, you are angered over the fact that the president was not quick enough presenting his public remorse to you? Please. And I cannot see any proof that America would be outraged if situations where reversed. At least not the sensible of us, that is for sure.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mattvanstone
If you're after equal respect status from the US, I'd give that pipe dream up now, it won't happen.

---

You have enough enemies in the world, so it would be best to keep your friends. Clinton knew that fact, and that's why he was so popular here.

I'm not saying it's good or bad, but I don't think the US sees canada as anything near it's equal, nor does it really have to. If china tries to invade the US, which is damn near technically impossible, canada would either fight with the us or become new new china, right after the US is new china.

It's in canada's own interest to have one of the most powerful nations on Earth beside it, and be on good terms with it. We're a lot like the big brother (pun intended) that beats unholly ass from time to time.

canada is like a begnin (sp?) wart, it doesn't do much, good or bad, and it's not quite a bother either. If it up and fell off the Earth, we'd miss it, but feel better about our chances in Hockey.

As I said previously, I certainly recognize the heroic actions of the canadaian military in WW2 and other engagments.

Think aboot it...

Do you even know and understand that the US military killed more of it's own troops during Desert Storm than the Iraqi's did? Even though the total killed was around 300, which is amazingly small, we killed most of them, and that's how war goes.

I quoth the prophetic Metallica...sad, but true. :(

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mattvanstone
canada is like a begnin (sp?) wart, it doesn't do much, good or bad, and it's not quite a bother either. If it up and fell off the Earth, we'd miss it, but feel better about our chances in Hockey.

---

Ok, if we're gonna start tossing disses around, then America is like a firmly lodged malignant brain tumour: If you try to remove it, it'll kill the Earth. If you leave it in, it'll still kill the Earth eventually.


But as I said before, this whole controversy is mostly a problem with Bush. Bush is incompetant.


(Note: to all the other Americans on this board, I apologize for this argument, this is not your fault)

In the real world, violence solves problems. We are a violent nation, with a massive military, and that can, if need be, use MAD and eliminate any nation from this planet, or along with Russia or China, destroy it. That alone stops quite a few nations, though not cells of fanatical/dedicated individuals, from attempting anything to North Amercia (and you'll notice it's not called North Canada :P).

Be thankfull canada is not in South America or what would surely be called New Germania in Europe (just as England should be as well, since it is not on mainland Europe).

Don't worry, the US will protect canada if anything goes down.

:)

Gongos: I didn't start the thread, and the flames were going on long before I added my own posts.

We're annoyed primarily at Bush (for plenty of reasons), but not at Americans in general.

Heh. I have an extremely funny image I could post here, but Kenshin would kill me.

I live in America, and I don't see ANY reason for us to even be fighting this 'war'. Much less, the quality of our soldiers is questionable at best. I'm not only referring to that pilot, I'm referring to all the military personel I've ever encountered.

All we DO is shoot first, push the blame aside later...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenshin


Um, EXCUSE ME?

If Canada dropped a motherfucking bomb on American soldiers, there would be HELL TO PAY. It would be on all the news programs 24/7 for at least a week, and people would be shit-talking us like we're the biggest traitors in the world.

Now, how is our nation being upset that George W Bush didnt make a public statement so unjustified? When you dropped a bomb on one of your own soldiers last year, he held THREE seperate press conferences about it in one day. Yes, he called our prime minister, but that's just international protocol.

---

Let me get this straight, you're criticising U.S. media and politicians for paying more attention to deaths of its own citizens than to foriegn citizens?

Um, yeah, I think that's how it works <shakes head>.

And, no, I don't think U.S. citizens would be trashing Canadiens. Accidents happen in war.

Accidents? In war? We're at war with Canada? :rolleyes:


Seriously, f*** the US. I couldn't be more embarrased to admit what country I'm from anywhere on the planet. Seriously.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by haohmaru
Let me get this straight, you're criticising U.S. media and politicians for paying more attention to deaths of its own citizens than to foriegn citizens?

---

If you bomb your allies, you apologise to them. It's called respect, and George Dubya has none.


Of course, I can pull up a not-so-severe parallel situation you can relate to where a certain short angry person buggered off and said nothing to his subscribers when his magazine stopped publication. (At least Bush, pressured by his handlers, made a better-late-than-never statement...)

truth is,,,
no one knows what the fuck is going on over there, except maybe relief workers(same situation in Israel).

US bombers make lots of mistakes,like um,,,,
bombing a Chinese embassy, a mosque in Afgahanistan, civilian populace of Iraq, as well as the only Medicine factory in Sudan. United Nations???? whats that.
go USA!!!!

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenshin


If you bomb your allies, you apologise to them. It's called respect, and George Dubya has none.

---

Problem with this equation is that...HE DID. You're irate about the timing (or... poor timing).

Quote:

---

Of course, I can pull up a not-so-severe parallel situation you can relate to where a certain short angry person buggered off and said nothing to his subscribers when his magazine stopped publication. (At least Bush, pressured by his handlers, made a better-late-than-never statement...) [/B]

---

Yeah, but that was worse (betrayal) and better (no deaths).

Seriously, I think the U.S. takes a lot of shit from a lot of sources and much of it is unwarranted.

All governments, including yours, have a degree of corruption and politicalness that we're probably ALL better of staying away from.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Mode7
He panicked, and dropped a bomb. Self-defence.Time to go home, America. Who are you fighting, anyway?

---

So he was told not to do it twice, panics and does it anyway. Sounds like an individual's gross ignorance.

oh yeah, and it seems so popular to bash on anything that has to do with the US these days. I may be wrong. Then again, I may be wrong in the assumption that idiots are everywhere, not just centralized in the US, and maybe due to our country's own retarded media, everyone thinks that fools are an overwhelming majority in the US ONLY.

But hey, I come from the country, so you could easily wave away this viewpoint by the reasoning that I'm from the US and don't know any better.

Or not.

Eh, whatever.

Quote:

---

Time to go home, America. Who are you fighting, anyway?

---

Ratings. Blowing alot of shit up helps win elections.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny
Ratings. Blowing alot of shit up helps win elections.

---

It didn't help his father much. ;)

I hope you were sarcastic, or do you seriously think Americans are that heartless and dumb?

Hey neat, another reason to hate America..I've disliked the American way for quite a while now, but I still want to pilot a fighter in the air force for the pure excitement of it..not to help defend the US. Isn't that fucked up?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero
I hope you were sarcastic, or do you seriously think Americans are that heartless and dumb?

---

If you add 'selfish' to that list, I can say I seriously believe it....

I would think the assumption goes hand-in-hand...

Actually, I think I have a bit of a problem with how Bush handled things as well. Right now, we keep hearing this "Us vs. Them" talk from him. Seperating the good from the bad. But, I think he often has a horrible way of handling things with our friends. If we're actually serious about this whole "good vs. evil" thing, we need to start showing it. We need to start showing better connection to our friends, and being clearer about who our enemies are. I think, behind the scenes, Bush doesn't blame Israel for what it is currently doing. Yet, because of what he goes out in public and says, we look like we're contradicting ourselves. It is okay for us to suddenly tromp off into the Middle East and declare war against the Taliban, but when Israel is defending itself, we tell them to hold back.

At the same time, I think he could and should have handled things better with Canada. The point isn't that he said he was sorry or whatever, but HOW he said it that makes the people of Canada satisfied in what they hear. Had it seemed to come from him in a more sincere way, I'm sure most of Canada would have been satisfied. September 11th happens, and suddenly the US acts like it is the only country having tragedy happen to it, and that everyone should now pay attention to us and our protection. But then something like this happens, and our response sort of seems to be, "Whoops, sorry." If we do consider Canada to be our friend, then I think we need to be more careful about showing that fact.

I'm just saying, I think he should have handled things a bit better. Yes, we all know that accidents happen, and I'm not saying he should get down on his knees and beg forgiveness or whatever. But, still, as I said, if we see Canada as a friend and ally, then we should show them a bit more respect something - especially after "forgetting" to thank them after the events of Sept. 11th. And I'm sorry, friendship with Canada does NOT depend on how strong of a military power they are. You don't just go around picking all of your friends by how much ass they can kick.

In wartime you do. Might equals right in war, dude. canada and the US will always be allies, to varying degrees, just as they have been (like the US and England are). I don't think England will ever forget that were it not for the US (along with canada and other nations to a lesser extent), it's likely that England would not be the same country.

Terrorisim needs to die, and be rooted out where it breeds.

If you killed my family, then ran off to one of you're friends houses, I would certainly go in that house and exact revenge.

The US made it clear early on that it seeked assitance, and despite the tough talk, is not likely to bomb or un-ally with canada if canada does not assist in the Afganistan affair.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mattvanstone
Terrorisim needs to die, and be rooted out where it breeds.

---

Right. We should start with America, the most powerful terrorist nation the world has ever seen.

Quote:

---

If you killed my family, then ran off to one of you're friends houses, I would certainly go in that house and exact revenge.

---

That doesn't make it right. If your the voice of morality or virtue, we're all screwed...

I dont feel one bit sorry for the Candians who got bombed.Why? because its their fault that they are sheep to America. Its their fault that they had to join the coallition against 'terrorism'.Its their fault that they support a government that has a record of rape and murder (http://www.villagevoice.com/issues/0145/adams.php) , that makes the Taliban look harmless by comparison.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by EThugg


Right. We should start with America, the most powerful terrorist nation the world has ever seen.

---

I did a whole write up on this in Speech class last year. I see we share a similar view of America...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by EThugg


That doesn't make it right. If your the voice of morality or virtue, we're all screwed...

---

HAHAHAHA thats so true...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero
oh yeah, and it seems so popular to bash on anything that has to do with the US these days.

---

Its the backlash to the post September 11th "OH SHIT! WE GOTTA PUT OUR FLAGS EVERYWHERE BECAUSE I JUST REALIZED THAT I LOVE THIS COUNTRY OMG!!1" crap that a lot of people did. Everytime I saw a flag it made me sick. Yes, I like this country and I bet the person with the flag does too. But if this never happened then they would have NEVER of put their stupid little flag on their big stupid truck. That kind of crap went hand in hand with boy bands and any other commercial crap.

And on a bit of a random note..hasn't the US killed more of their own than anyone else? Aiyah..

Truly Slip. Up at private campground that my family frequents a flag is hung at a few people's site, but I'm damn afraid to see how many more flags are hung this summer.

As another Canadian that visits this board regularly (though I haven’t posted in ages), I thought I’d just drop my opinion on the situation. Like most Canadians, I was saddened (even frustrated and angry) by what occurred, and, frankly, given the circumstances, really shocked that it could even happen. Still, as a Canadian, I’m somewhat embarrassed by the reaction of some of my fellow countrymen. It seems that some people are quick to turn around and blame Americans as a whole, which is absurd, as though it was almost an American conspiracy, or something. An entire nation cannot be held responsible for the foolish mistake of one member of the US military (who was, apparently, told not to fire by his superiors) and the lack of response by Bush (who has, on more than one occasion shown very little respect towards Canada). I do fully believe that, had the tables been reversed, most Americans would feel some degree of anger towards Canada if our Prime Minister dodged questions on the subject and waited a few days before offering a formal apology; it is just a natural reaction, accident or not. If nothing else, I would sincerely hope that, if the investigation into the situation shows that the pilot in question acted out of pure foolishness (as it seems he likely did), the US takes the proper measures to hold this person responsible for his actions, rather than sweeping it under the carpet, for the sake of the Canadian soldiers who were lost and injured and their families.

Regardless, I don’t know of many Canadians who think Canada should stop supporting the fight against terrorism because of this horrible tragedy; most still seem to support our military involvement in the mission (I personally support our nation’s involvement). After all, I think most people realize that there are risks in war and tragedies will inevitably occur. Sometimes, these tragedies can even be caused by allies. For people who never supported Canada’s military involvement, well, this just another reason for them to be angry/annoyed by it. While I don’t agree with this viewpoint personally, they are, of course, free to feel how they choose.

Rather than worrying about whether the President apologized correctly, or who to blame, my thoughts and prayers instead go out to the families that lost loved ones and the people who were ultimately willing to give their lives for a cause they believed in.

Crap, I missed all the fun. Most of what I wanted to say has already been said and argued over, so I will add this. The excuse that "this is war, and these things happen" won't fly. For one, this so-called war is a misnomer. A war is declared, and fought against another sovereign nation. In this case the target is "terrorism" which is just as abstract as saying it's a war against "freedom", "love" or "bad moods". If the mandate of this war is to eliminate terror and anyone who would perpetrate it, what do they expect to do? I don't think there are enough bombs in the U.S. to drop on every palestinian who wants his home back. Furthurmore, this isn't WW2 or Vietnam, in terms of its scale or level of confusion. There is a relatively small force in Afganistan, and they have almost never come under attack by an enemy force. Their missions are simple seek-and-destroy; in other words, the Taliban and Al-Queda don't stand a ghost of a chance against the far superior U.S. soldiers. This is a pretty straightforward operation, so why the hell have there been so many friendly fire incidents? I could understand if it was a full blown war with a huge force and the wheels of bureaucracy were turning very slowly, but this isn't the case at all. I used to think that the U.S. had the best millitary in the world, but it seems to me now that they're just a bunch of pussies (the millitary, not Americans per-se) who drop bombs indiscriminately over anything that looks like it might be potentially threatening. No wonder the pilot released his weapon, cause if he had had any balls he would have tried to evade the "attack" after being denied permission to drop, instead of just blowing the shit out of our guys.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Kenshin


We're out there fighting HIS WAR.

---

with that statement alone you show how arrogant and unintelligent you truly are

Americans were not the only ones in those buildings that day

There were people from all over the world im sure there were plenty of Canadians there too

those who did this knew that

this was not an attack on America it was an Attack on the world

unfortanetly friendly fire is an aspect of every war and its a sad one
just like the fact that innocent lifes are lost for the evils of other men

Quote:

---

Originally posted by EThugg
Accidents? In war? We're at war with Canada? :rolleyes:


Seriously, f*** the US. I couldn't be more embarrased to admit what country I'm from anywhere on the planet. Seriously.

---

then move

"The dirty little secret of the Gulf War is that “friendly fire” accounted for 24 percent of the U.S. dead. A rate this high is not an inevitable consequence of the “fog of war.” According to a study done at the Army’s Command and General Staff College, “friendly fire” casualties accounted for less than 2 percent of all those occurring in battle during World War II, Korea, and Vietnam."

I stand corrected on the FF figure from the Iraq War.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnpv


then move

---

I would be embarassed to be an american. Their meddling in other countries , has lead to millions of deaths . And their cowboy attitude is pathetic , they just cant expect to use their pathetic morals in other countries.
Just look at what they did in Vietnam.The country was once the fifth largest producer of rice in the world , before the US sprayed agent orange all over their crops . Now they cant even feed themselves. Other US attrocities include starving 2 million Iraqi's to death ,supporting the aparthied ,and supporting Israel.

To anyone who's disgusted by the country they live in; ever think of changing it, or do you think that no one person can make a difference, that the problem is beyond control, that we're all screwed, etc.?

You'd be suprised how many people I see in college who hate the man/establishment/whatever to such a degree that they seeth with total negativity, but their passion isn't enough to motivate them to make a change.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero
To anyone who's disgusted by the country they live in; ever think of changing it, or do you think that no one person can make a difference, that the problem is beyond control, that we're all screwed, etc.?

You'd be suprised how many people I see in college who hate the man/establishment/whatever to such a degree that they seeth with total negativity, but their passion isn't enough to motivate them to make a change.

---

That's because making a change requires courage and initiative (as well as some degree of optimism; those who start something with the belief that they will fail are destined to do so), which are not qualities that many people are exactly saturated with, especially in our generation.

After all, it's much easier to sit and whine about it than to get up and even try to make a difference, is it not?

and that's the rub. If something causes you to feel so outraged, why not do something about it? Being pesstimistic about the outcome kinda screws you from the get-go...but that kinda nulls out the reason for complaint.

If you see something wrong and do nothing about it, I'd think that's a bad decision to make.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by CynicalSphere


That's because making a change requires courage and initiative (as well as some degree of optimism; those who start something with the belief that they will fail are destined to do so), which are not qualities that many people are exactly saturated with, especially in our generation.

After all, it's much easier to sit and whine about it than to get up and even try to make a difference, is it not?

---

A single person going up against "the machine" these days is like someone throwing a pebble at a tank. 200 people going up against "the machine" is like 200 people throwing pebbles at a tank. It makes no difference, because "the machine" is just too powerful nowadays, and impervious to any sort of assault outside of another tank. Of course the majority ignorant mainstream just laughs at the futile efforts put forth by the people trying to make a change.

Once in a while someone is able to blow up a "tank", but it requires powerful ammo, which is usually powerful evidence of wrongdoing. But they'll try to get to you and shut you up before you can use it...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by xS

I would be embarassed to be an american. Their meddling in other countries , has lead to millions of deaths . And their cowboy attitude is pathetic , they just cant expect to use their pathetic morals in other countries.
Just look at what they did in Vietnam.The country was once the fifth largest producer of rice in the world , before the US sprayed agent orange all over their crops . Now they cant even feed themselves. Other US attrocities include starving 2 million Iraqi's to death ,supporting the aparthied ,and supporting Israel.

---

I'd be embarrassed to be YOU making statements like the above. North Vietnam was (and still is) an oppressive communistic regime that enslaves its population. Who gives a shit what they produce? For the record, I'm *STRONGLY* against the U.S. (and world) appetite for items manufactured in China which also enslaves its population.

Hussein is *FAR* more responsible for the plight of the Iraqi people than are the United States.

Supporting apartheid? Be more specific.

Supporting Israel. Um, yeah, the are a democracy.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnpv


then move

---

Did you read a thing I just said?? I'd be embarrased! It's not hard to pick up on someone being an american...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero
To anyone who's disgusted by the country they live in; ever think of changing it, or do you think that no one person can make a difference, that the problem is beyond control, that we're all screwed, etc.?

---

I do think we're all screwed. I do what I can in my personal life to make things better, lots of little things, but I know that in the end, the only one who cares that I'm doing them is me, because most americans are greedy, ignorant and uncompassionate cattle who are willing slaves to their immediate wants. Most countries do it to a degree, but the US is the worst by far.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by haohmaru
Supporting Israel. Um, yeah, the are a democracy.

---

Well then, I guess that makes them good and pure, like us... :rolleyes:

I say wars shouldn't include the innocent soldier and civilian casualties that stem from fighting their leader's fights. I say if Bush has a problem with Huessin, for example, let's put both of them in a steel cage, bareknuckle boxing until one of them's too much of a pussy to keep up the thrashing. Now that's how to handle foreign affairs! Oh, and should this occur, my vote for president goes to Jesse Ventura. ;)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by EThugg


Well then, I guess that makes them good and pure, like us... :rolleyes:

---

Democracies are FAR from perfect and at their worst they turn into pure capitalism (which isn't good for most people).

Having said that, there isn't a better or more just form of government and ALL of this has nothing to do with being "good" or "pure".

If you know of a better form of government, name it.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by haohmaru

If you know of a better form of government, name it.

---

There are none better or worse. Communism is just as good at it's best as Democracy at its best. Democracy, esp. a representitive one, is no better than any form of communism has been in practice.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by EThugg


There are none better or worse. Communism is just as good at it's best as Democracy at its best. Democracy, esp. a representitive one, is no better than any form of communism has been in practice.

---

No. Communism is just as good as Democracy at its best in theory. When human nature becomes involved, Communism bears no resemblance to Democracy in practice - nor has it ever approached a viable Democracy in the real world.

For the record, a great myth about the U.S. is that it is a Democracy. It isn't - it's a Republic, which was set up to prevent "the mob rules", which is a Democracies greatest weakness.

Bottom line - nothing is perfect, including the U.S., its government, its policies, or its military.

If you're THAT upset by the moral character of this country and the government that we are governed by, then it might be time for you to go elsewhere. That's not a snipe, it's a suggestion.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by haohmaru


No. Communism is just as good as Democracy at its best in theory. When human nature becomes involved, Communism bears no resemblance to Democracy in practice - nor has it ever approached a viable Democracy in the real world.

---

I didn't say resemblance. I said it's no worse.

Quote:

---

If you're THAT upset by the moral character of this country and the government that we are governed by, then it might be time for you to go elsewhere. That's not a snipe, it's a suggestion.

---

I'm upset about the moral character of every country. Just ours more than most.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by EThugg


Did you read a thing I just said?? I'd be embarrased! It's not hard to pick up on someone being an american...

---

no seriously move get out if you dont like it here then leave its that simple

go to china then just dont plan on having more then one kid well if you do dont expect it to live too long

ohhh or go to Slovinia (spelling) where most the towns only have running water and electricity from about 8 am till 6 pm

people never realise what they have untill its taken away

maybe thugg's gripe isn't with the material posessions or lack thereof in the US, but the mindset of the people. How you change an entire mindset, letalone the similar mindsets in other countries, is a whole other issue.

Sheep too stupid to change or enlightened individuals of the self-defeatist nature: which is more of a dissapointment?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnpv


no seriously move get out if you dont like it here then leave its that simple

---

No, seriously. Make me. You sure don't pass up a chance to follow me around and start shit, do you Mr. Troll...

Quote:

---

go to china then just dont plan on having more then one kid well if you do dont expect it to live too long

---

I plan on having no childeren. I'm not going to add to the problem. If only we limited breeding here... no, we're too dumb for that here.

Quote:

---

ohhh or go to Slovinia (spelling) where most the towns only have running water and electricity from about 8 am till 6 pm

---

Oh no! I won't be able to needlessly waste resources on entertainment or other frivilous crap! It's the end of the world!

Quote:

---

people never realise what they have untill its taken away

---

You seriously have no idea about me... I like population control and conservation. I don't have a problem with a government limiting me for good reasons, I only have a problem with restrictions or laws there soley for the good of the government, or big corperations who pay off the government.

sorry but i like having my freedomes

i dont find a government telling me i can only have 1 child something i agree with

and no running water means no going to the bathroom from 6pm till 8 am hope you can hold it for 14 hours hope you dont have to take a shower during that time hope you dont have an emergency then and have to go to the hospital


seriously if you dont mind the government controlling what you do then please your free to go to another contry

yet i dont see you running off to one

i love people who bitch about this country and complain and complain about it and yet ill never leave it through out all their life

if you hate where your at then move go somewhere else

just dont bitch about the government in a good 70 - 80% of the places youd go to they dont beleive in freedome of speech like we do here

Youre quite lucky that your not bitch about the government in back say Communist Russia or Germany During WWII or even say China or North Vietnam today


Also i hope you people realise that just like theres never been a real democracy in practice there has never been a real form of Communism out there

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Hero
maybe thugg's gripe isn't with the material posessions or lack thereof in the US, but the mindset of the people. How you change an entire mindset, letalone the similar mindsets in other countries, is a whole other issue.

---

if your refering to my post

the comment that people dont realise what the have till its gone deals very very very little with material possesions

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnpv
sorry but i like having my freedomes

---

You didn't understand the point I was making obviously. Your not free here either.

Quote:

---

seriously if you dont mind the government controlling what you do then please your free to go to another contry

yet i dont see you running off to one

---

The point is if I lived elsewhere, I wouldn't be running off to here. There is nothing special or better about the US. I think the Chinese ppl know they have no rights, but your living proof that America does the best job of brainwashing you into thinking your free...

Quote:

---

i love people who bitch about this country and complain and complain about it and yet ill never leave it through out all their life

---

I've been outside of America.

Quote:

---

if you hate where your at then move go somewhere else

---

Typical american way of thinking... like I said, make me.

Quote:

---

just dont bitch about the government in a good 70 - 80% of the places youd go to they dont beleive in freedome of speech like we do here

---

There is no reason to think that's good. I have every right to think and feel what I want, but no natural right to express it to others. I believe in non-harmful free speech... which doesn't cover half the things allowed on regular television or radio. And your acting like I think every country is right 100% of the time. Where did I say this? I didn't. I said I hate America more than other countries, that's all.

Quote:

---

Youre quite lucky that your not bitch about the government in back say Communist Russia or Germany During WWII or even say China or North Vietnam today

---

IF I wanted to bitch about them, I would, and accept my fate.

Quote:

---

Also i hope you people realise that just like theres never been a real democracy in practice there has never been a real form of Communism out there

---

And where was it stated otherwise?

He brings up a good point though EThugg, if you hate the US so much, why do you live there? Simply responding with "make me" isn't a proper explanation. Are you just too lazy to move? Are you simply trolling again, and playing on people's patriotism?

On a similar note, I always found it quite ironic how you push for censorship when you're often the most controversial on this forum. Perhaps that's your goal.

actually Ethugg many people come here theres a reason why our immigration levels are so high

I use china as a prime examble because im close with some one who moved here from china and used to knwo some one else quite well who once lived in china neither of them will ever move back there to live the one im close with will visit every few years but would never consider moving back there now that theyve lived here

where i live theres a large Turkish population that have moved here and would rather work pumping gas here in america then ever move back to turkey

If you cant realise that America offers people more oppurtinities and freedomes then most the other countries on this planet then you need to go live in other places for a bit and truly experience them

Only sheep would consider li'l ol' me controversial... :lol:

I was born here. Why should I leave? Just because America and most its citizens suck? I need a better reason than that... I hate plenty of stuff, but running away from it doesn't do anything. I can complain BECAUSE I live here. If I didn't live in America, how could I complain about how much it sucks here? Sounds like you guys think only patriotic individuals deserve to live in 'your' country. Well I got news for ya's, it's just as much mine as yours. Why don't you leave my country?

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnpv
actually Ethugg many people come here theres a reason why our immigration levels are so high

I use china as a prime examble because im close with some one who moved here from china and used to knwo some one else quite well who once lived in china neither of them will ever move back there to live the one im close with will visit every few years but would never consider moving back there now that theyve lived here

where i live theres a large Turkish population that have moved here and would rather work pumping gas here in america then ever move back to turkey

---

I don't think the number of foreigners who like to come to america and have more money, food, and all for doing less work are the issue. I said I wouldn't come here. So you know some ppl who like americas unefficient lazy lifestyle. I'm sooo impressed.

Quote:

---

If you cant realise that America offers people more oppurtinities and freedomes then most the other countries on this planet then you need to go live in other places for a bit and truly experience them

---

Like you have, right? *cough* I'd get along just fine in any country... only whiney lazy americans can't 'imagine' all the hard work others do. Only greedy americans can't imagine the 'horrors' of not being able to induldge in whatever exccess they want at whatever moment they want. Sure, other countries have their problems, but that doesn't make america any better.

It's not a matter of kicking out those who don't hump the flag, it's a simple matter of you claiming the US as not being the greatest and yet still living there. By your own definition, you're a masochist. Funnier still is that you don't respect the freedoms that allow you to be one. I mean if this isn't all a huge rouse, you truly are one fine retard.

Keep up with the humour, it provides for many laughs.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny
It's not a matter of kicking out those who don't hump the flag, it's a simple matter of you claiming the US as not being the greatest and yet still living there.

---

And what makes you think I feel the need to live in the best nation? Or that I think any nation is worth the hassle of moving?

Quote:

---

By your own definition, you're a masochist.

---

Hardly...

Quote:

---

Funnier still is that you don't respect the freedoms that allow you to be one. I mean if this isn't all a huge rouse, you truly are one fine retard.

---

1-F*** you sheep.

2-If being a masochist (which I'm NOT) was in some way hindering any goal of the United States government, you can bet I'd be 'taken care of' quietly, so as to not disillusion you sheep.

Quote:

---

Keep up with the humour, it provides for many laughs.

---

Yes, it does take a ignorant breed to laugh at their own enslavement...

You need to rant about how hamburger may as well be made out of human infants again, your political rants are tired and cliche. Oh sorry.. baaa baa baaaa baaa baaaaa, baa.

I couldn't seeEthugg making such a modest proposal.


anyways, just stepping in to

Quote:

---

It's not a matter of kicking out those who don't hump the flag, it's a simple matter of you claiming the US as not being the greatest and yet still living there.

---

yeah, tell you not to say this. People aren't obligated to like the
country they live in. I dare say I'd rather have people attempting to change it instead of just stepping away. Granted, most are content to simply complain, but there's nothing wrong with complaining simply because you live in that designated area.

Oh no, not cliche! I guess being cliche makes them invalid, huh? Go to hell....

Quote:

---

Originally posted by rezo
I couldn't seeEthugg making such a modest proposal.


anyways, just stepping in to




yeah, tell you not to say this. People aren't obligated to like the
country they live in. I dare say I'd rather have people attempting to change it instead of just stepping away. Granted, most are content to simply complain, but there's nothing wrong with complaining simply because you live in that designated area.

---

Heeey, your alright... we need more Rezo's, and less John(ny)'s...

Quote:

---

Originally posted by EThugg
Oh no, not cliche! I guess being cliche makes them invalid, huh? Go to hell....

---

Ahhh...yeah...that hits the spot. I've missed my daily hit of EThugg's 'yeah, well fuck you, bitch'...mmmm..just as bitter and stale as I remember. :)

Quote:

---

Originally posted by mattvanstone


Ahhh...yeah...that hits the spot. I've missed my daily hit of EThugg's 'yeah, well fuck you, bitch'...mmmm..just as bitter and stale as I remember. :)

---

I didn't say that. I don't post real cuss words anymore. And what I said had a good point, but you missed it with your head up your rectum.

Keep going, I'm a EThugg junkie now. Please...just give me one "Fuck you, Bitch"...a can a week, that's all I ask...

Of course there's nothing wrong with complaining and trying to make a change, however the EThugg character is a gimmick. Simply put, there's no point in having a serious conversation with him, so it's best to just point out the irony in whatever comedy gold he puts forth and leave it at that.

Quote:

---

North Vietnam was (and still is) an oppressive communistic regime that enslaves its population.

---

So the US starves the very people it attempts to save?

Quote:

---

Who gives a shit what they produce? For the record, I'm *STRONGLY* against the U.S. (and world) appetite for items manufactured in China which also enslaves its population.

---

Im also aggainst the Chinese government . But the fact is that their production was their source of food , and you have no fucking right to mess with it.

Quote:

---

Hussein is *FAR* more responsible for the plight of the Iraqi people than are the United States.

---

I hate Saddam to no end , but it was the US's fault that 2 million people died out of a population of 24 million.

Quote:

---

Supporting apartheid? Be more specific.

---

They've supported the racist south african regime during the cold war.

Quote:

---

Supporting Israel. Um, yeah, the are a democracy

---

A democracy that only exists for the Jews . The arabs have lost their homes and are being forced into refugee camps.
The problem that I see with democracy is the fact that true democracy never existed. We have a very limited number of people to vote for , so we hardly ever get what we really want. Furthermore, people vote for one candidate for the sake of trying to make other candidates lose.And worst of all the fat cats in the country are likely to get their own candidates voted for , as they use their financial power to control the masses.

Going back to the topic, I find it difficult to believe anyone would feel sorry for the dead Canadians . Its their own fault that they cant act in an autonomous manner . Them and England have to follow the US like sheep , no matter what they do.
Its their own fault that they support the current government in Afghanistan and helped the US in carpet bombing the whole country in a ruthless manner. Thousands have died , and chances are that the media will cover it up. The US and its allies undertook their carpet bombing of Yugoslavia in a similar manner. Their fighter jets flew miles above the ground , too far to accurately ascertain targets and they ended up hitting schools and churches.
And dont get me started on the current regime in Kabul . If you have ever read the recent history of Afghanistan then you should know that the Taliban was a revolutionary movement. Innocent civilians were tired of mass rape, and having to kill their own mothers , daughters, and sisters because of these rapists. The Taliban were a bunch of frustarated millitants who overthrew the regime , and brought stablity to the land .
Ill digress for a while and try to hammera few facts down your throat.The US government refused to neogitiate with the Taliban on the matter of handing over Bin Laden.They just bombed the country right away with the consent of its sheep friends.
Overall its the Canadians fault that they support the carnage , destruction and rape that is happenning in Afganistan.I dont see why anyone would feel sorry for their soldiers. In my opinion .........they deserve to die , along with the rest of the meddling fools who cant even control their own foriegn policy.

Quote:

---

Originally posted by Johnny
Of course there's nothing wrong with complaining and trying to make a change, however the EThugg character is a gimmick. Simply put, there's no point in having a serious conversation with him, so it's best to just point out the irony in whatever comedy gold he puts forth and leave it at that.

---

There is no gimmick. If that's what you think, your sadly mistaken.


And matt... your cut off!!! You get none of that from me anymore!! :p