The most ambitious games of this era so far

What do you think are the most ambitious games/series so far this era in terms of what the developers hoped to and did accomplish? These are some of my picks:

Morrowind - Possibly the most open-ended game ever made. The pacing might be too slow for some but I'm in awe at what Bethesda accomplished in terms of player freedom. The only reason I have stopped playing it is one very frustrating part.

Grand Theft Auto 3 - No game has ever made such a huge and well-designed city to explore. It's amazing how everything just gelled perfectly with this game.

Deus Ex - I know I won't shut up about this game but I'll just say that no game has ever mixed several genres so well.

Shenmue series - While they definitely fail at being FREE, the Shenmue games still managed to be adventure games unlike any other. Exploring the cities, basking in classic Sega games, and enjoying the atmosphere. They felt like something new.

Tekki - the controller alone makes it ambitious... but now they're adding online play complete with clan support? Crazy.

Jet Grind/Set Radio- popularized cel shading, and made damned good games with it was well.
Shenmue series- went above and beyond most RPGs by trying to put you in a living, breathing world that the player could relate to.
Grand Theft Auto III- tried to do many things at once in the game, and succeeded more often than not.

I'm going to agree with Morrowind, and Deus Ex. GTA 3 did alot and I would like to see alot of things it does done elsewhere (imaging its level of well designed exploreable cites in Morrowind!) but as a whole I think it lacks real innovation. You may already know what I think about Shenmue.

I would nominate something else but all I can think of is Dark Age of Camelot. It really did a whole lot for Player vs Player combat working within the game system. Shadowbane seems to do more for it but it lacks the more RP (role-play) side of the game. A perfect hybrid is yet to be made.

ºTracer

Rez- abstract games are totally extinct, and then UGA gives us one of the best ones ever.

James

A Tale in the Desert

You start as a lowly immagrant somewhere in Egypt, but soon you meet new people who will offer to become your mentor, and show you how the game works, guiding you on the path to citizenship, after which you can choose to study one of the seven disciplines, such as Diplomacy and Art. Each discpline requires you to undertake 7 tests to become a master in this skill, the first art test for example has you searching the country side for materials which you can use to create a statue, which you must design, but in order to past the test you must have 20 differnt people look upon your statue and praise it. The religion discipline has you offering a sacrafice to a god, the things you can do are staggering.

Players who become politicians can create laws which effect the game, and players must vote wheter the vote will pass or not, and if it does pass, the game's programmers add it into the game, such as, you must pay a fee in order to take items from another players treasure chest, etc. Players must be careful, for in the past, players have voted sneaky and manipulative laws that only hurt them in the long run.

With the exception of a few buildings everything in the game is created by the players. In order to build things you must learn skills, trade items, and harvest materials. Because of this, people to flock to mineral rich areas, such as lakes and rivers. There are buildings as far as the eye can see on the Nile.

New inventions and scientific formulas are being found all the time. These discoveries help egypt advance as a society. Recently they discovered how to genetically engineer plants, and have found new and interesting plants to grow, which can be used to find other discoveries. Finding such things can yeild profitable results, such as the time when a player figured out a formula to create a rare form of wine, since he was the only one who knew this, he sold his wine for a lot items (currency not being invented yet).


I could go on and on.
Be sure to check it out.

I'd add to the list-
Metroid Prime- 3D Metroid. It works!
Panzer Dragoon Orta- Purty. Real purty.
Ico- For making you care about what happens to the characters.
Wind Waker- Yes, it's mostly Ocarina again. Still, it gets my vote because of the sailing aspect.
MGS2- For presentation alone.
ZOE2- Ditto.

Shenmue 1 and 2 defineatly get my vote, but another Sega game that really did it for consoles is PSO.


PSO is the most succesful and enjoyable online console game on the market. The variety of character designs is in the 100's, with all the costume changes and different classes combined. Then you have the fairly unique aspect of nurturing a mag, to complememt the character you're playing with. The gameplay is fairly straight forward, but combine it with a group of friends online and the experience becomes more than any offline gamer could imagine. Just an incredible experience and a great game to introduce a gamer to online gaming.

Dead Or Alive: Xtreme Beach Volleyball was ambitious for striving to make a Volleyball game without much Volleyball, for striving to spell extreme the "cool" way, and for striving to be the worst game I have played this year. Somehow it succeeded at all of these.

In all seriousness though I think one of the most ambitious games of this generation was Illbleed for the Dreamcast. It was ambitious for creating a horror game that bucked all the boring horror genre trends. Illbleed is one of my all time favorite games because it strived to be bizarre and it was. I want a sequel.

Battlefield 1942 for certain. My love for this game has no boundaries. Everyone else in the FPS genre is playing catch-up to this game. Not only do you control soldiers with different class-based atributes, you have complete control over dozens of vehicles that go onver land, sea , and air as well. On top of all that love, you can play with 63 other people at the same time. If your connection can't handle it, you can play offline with 63 bots. It is a truly beautiful game that really has no rival in its class. Hell, it was the reason that Wolfensteiin: Enemy Territory was cancelled. I can't wait for the second expansion pack as well as the sequel called battlefield 1943(how friggin' clever!)

I also have to include GTA3 in that catigory as well. IT was the first game that I didn't mind wasting time in the game. Hell, sometimes I'd even find a quiet place and just listen to the radio, esp. Laslo's talk show. Too bad they made him some heavy metal DJ in the second one.

Fable - Best premise, most risk.

Halflife - Evolution is the best.

Halflife 2 - Evolution at its best.

The Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time - One of the greatest gaming experiences of all time, surprisingly in 3D.

Battlefeild 1942 - Evolving online shooters beyond words.

i'm surprised no one mentioned black and white. i'm not a big fan, but if any game is ambitious, it's that one.

good timing for this thread.. i just ran through Rez again this morning..

really ahead of its time.

i wouldn't call rez a hugely ambitious game. it is, essentially, a watered down panzer dragoon clone (that i like rez more than panzer dragoon doesn't change this fact.) its art design, while stunning, is derivative, and its music integration aspect isn't nearly as revolutionary as promised. i love rez, but at its core, it is a very traditional game.

Steel Battalion, Shenmue 1/2, Zelda, Metroid, GTA and Final Fantasy XI (you said ambitious, you didn't say it has to work :)

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Originally posted by epmode
[Rez's] art design, while stunning, is derivative...

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derivative of what?

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Originally posted by johnk_
derivative of what?

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it's almost as though uga tried to remake tron with a better color pallette. however, it may be a bit harsh to call it derivative. :sweat: there are a few significant differences.

my other comments stand, though.

Although it won't be for another....hell, who knows how long, until it's out, i'm going to have to pick Fable. This is a game that has promised to define the genre for what. 8-9 months now? If it pulls off what it hopes to, all I can say is wow.

I think Rez looks more like the Lawnmower man movie VR parts but other than that I can't see where else they got their inspiration from. It all melded together great.

Rez is great but I definitely wouldn't call it ambitious for the reasons epmode said.

I agree with Black and White although I don't think the game is much fun.

Fable
B.C.
Steel Battalion

Incedentally, B.C. and Fable are my most anticipated games (in that order).

I'm going to have to go ahead, and crush people's dreams when I say Morrowind isn't really that ambitious, espically if you are talking about eras.

It's predecessor, Daggerfall, was even BIGGER. Much, much bigger. Morrowind is very tiny compared to it, but that's only because Bethesda got so many complaints that Daggerfall was too big and way too open ended. I think Arena was like this as well, but I never played Arena.

So they scaled down, and Morrowind is the end result. Let's say that Morrowind *perfected* the open end, do whatever you want rpg.

I'm still waiting for the 4th game to come out, and I believe it takes place in the Redguard or Breton kingdoms. I remember a little while after Daggerfall came out, Bethesda said there were two more games, one in the Dark Elf kingdom (which is Morrowind), and another in the Redguard or Breton kingdom.

Morrowind perfected the crappy melee combat RPG, maybe...clunky and junky. Oh and it also perfected the cookie-cutter NPC. I love how all of them say the same things over and over.

DoDonPachi Dai-ou-jou- For being Cave's very own followup to the stellar DoDonPachi and improving on it in some ways, unlike the third party licensed DDP2. Now the hidden bees are worth more, and the Hyper item lets you get some 4-digit combos (although it raises rank).

Crisis Zone- The first good machine gun game to come out in a long time. While it does keep elements of Time Crisis and add the machine gun, the interactive backgrounds are a novel feature. Just about anything can be shattered, and the walls get riddled with pockmarks from your stray fire. Some enemies will hide behind breakable background elements, also. The graphics may be looking a trifle old 3 1/2 years after its release, but the play and overall experience hold up.

Doom III- It looks great. In fact, it may be a tad too much for some computers to handle.

Virtua Fighter 4- Although it loses the E button and variegated stage designs from VF3, the control is much better. The graphic leap over VF3 is appreciable.

Ferrari F355- Yu Suzuki wanted to make this just like driving a real Ferrari F355. In fact, you can even configure it to be a full simulation by turning off all assists. Power slides? Not here.

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Originally posted by Roufuss
It's predecessor, Daggerfall, was even BIGGER. Much, much bigger. Morrowind is very tiny compared to it, but that's only because Bethesda got so many complaints that Daggerfall was too big and way too open ended. I think Arena was like this as well, but I never played Arena.

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arena was even bigger than daggerfall. daggerfall takes place in one of the several nations that comprise the world in arena. morrowind may take place in a smaller area than both games, but there aren't any random dungeons, and the towns are all distinct.

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Originally posted by BoBVila
Morrowind perfected the crappy melee combat RPG, maybe...clunky and junky. Oh and it also perfected the cookie-cutter NPC. I love how all of them say the same things over and over.

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valid complaints. hopefully, bethesda will finally address these problems in the next game. morrowind shines in other areas, however. its sense of exploration is unmatched. it's very relaxing to just wander the countryside checking out the scenery.

Once I got over the fact that Morrowind's combat system is completely based on your stats and decisions and doesn't actually have any action basis to it, it no longer bothered me at all.

Ico.

It really showed me that video games can be so much closer to art than I ever imagined. But of course due to that fact it got unjustly passed up by the average gamer. Length be damned, the length means little when every other detail in the game is near perfect. There has never been any other game that made me feel for characters more. The games minimilistic apporoach allowed the game to be free of clutter and in turn highlights everything else. Its a thing of beauty.

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Originally posted by Clash_Master
Ico.

The games minimilistic apporoach allowed the game to be free of clutter and in turn highlights everything else.

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good call.

Morrowind,it hasbeen said before, but this gmae really gave me a full feeling of being a roleplaying game, i WAS frostwolf(looks at username...er, you know what i mean) the fighting system didnt bother me that much, since this was, in the end,a roleplayer, and i was getting more inolved than selecting from a menu while my guy bounced in place. everything else was golden

Fable will be my pick if it comes together,i love what i hear, but if it bombs, expect to hear some major league swearing from me.

and i want to try deus ex, but im going to wait for invisable war.

Regus: Ooo... interesting. Doesn't look like something I would normally play, but it's definately off the beaten path and quite different.

My vote (of games not mentioned) goes to Planetside. A MMOFPS is certainly quite an undertaking, and is doing way more for teamwork then quickie maps (like CS) because of the time involved. I've already been involved in sieges that last for a couple hours and require diverse groups in order to keep up with the enemy and have any sort of an edge. Great stuff.

I'm still waiting for a couple friends to hook up so I can finally test out my XBL headset and see how well voice is implemented. I'll be able to use outside programs if their in-game one sucks ass, but coordination will definately work a whole lot better being able to talk.

Planetside looks like such a cool game, but 13 bucks a month is pushing it. :(

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Originally posted by Rich
Planetside looks like such a cool game, but 13 bucks a month is pushing it. :(

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It's become the standard for the big name mmos. =/

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Originally posted by MechDeus


My vote (of games not mentioned) goes to Planetside. A MMOFPS is certainly quite an undertaking, and is doing way more for teamwork then quickie maps (like CS) because of the time involved. I've already been involved in sieges that last for a couple hours and require diverse groups in order to keep up with the enemy and have any sort of an edge. Great stuff.

I'm still waiting for a couple friends to hook up so I can finally test out my XBL headset and see how well voice is implemented. I'll be able to use outside programs if their in-game one sucks ass, but coordination will definately work a whole lot better being able to talk.

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I've been tempted to buy Planetside for a while now. Does it use its own engine?! Does it compare to any other FPS?? I have a really hard time paying 10 bucks a month to play any game because I feel that it is wrong, but if Planetside IS all that, then I may try it. You've definitely peaked my interest. More impressions, if you will! Thanx

Sky Gunner - This game was ambitious to the point where it's only major flaw was caused by it's drive for greatness. Atlus put so much action on screen, and what beautiful action it was, that the thing simply can't pull it's own weight. Slow down doesn't begin to describe what this baby does. But none the less, the story telling and sheer crazyness of battle make this game great.

Phantasy Star Online

Some of you are completely missing the point. Phantasy Star Online? Rez? JSRF? Panzer Dragoon Orta? Goddamn ZELDA?? I hate to break it to you people, but direct sequels, a 3D Diablo clone, and a fairly standard on rails shooter with some cool art and sound are pretty much the antithesis of ambitious. This isn't the "list your favorite games of this era" thread.

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Originally posted by Saint of Killers
Some of you are completely missing the point. Phantasy Star Online? Rez? JSRF? Panzer Dragoon Orta? Goddamn ZELDA?? I hate to break it to you people, but direct sequels, a 3D Diablo clone, and a fairly standard on rails shooter with some cool art and sound are pretty much the antithesis of ambitious. This isn't the "list your favorite games of this era" thread.

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I agree with all of your criticisms except Rez. If trying to sell a game based on the abstract visual-auditory synthesis of Wassily Kandinsky isn't ambitious, what the heck is?

Half Life is just Quake with a ton of scripted events, if you want to take the artistic and dynamic elements out of the equation. That's essentially what you're doing by boiling Rez down to a rail shooter, while leaving out the major advances in dyanamic audio it heralded (which many games have since copied, to varying degrees of success), as well as its multi-tiered gameplay (some people out there play it as a scorefest arcade game, some use it as a freeform trip-out experience, and some even use it as a musical instrument). That's without even mentioning the incredible tactile and audiovisual sensory immersion the programmers managed to pull off.

To those who would say Rez isn't ambitious, play Trancemission, then tell me what's so artistically or commercially daring about Half Life 2 or Battlefield 1942.

Rez was an incredibly ambitious concept.

Breakdown: Looks like namco did shemnue on fast forward

Half-Life 2: Goes without saying, but since I did, am I fucking serious?



The only two that come to mind, I mean Planetside obviously, but I think it is hard to find games that have really taken an existing genre and fucked it from one side of the room to another, or managed to create a genre onto itself.

i'll grant you that the the concept and general look of rez are ambitious. i suppose it comes down to what you think this topic is all about. i was basing my judgements on advances in videogame design, while ignoring stylistic achievements. perhaps it's unfair to make such a distinction.

i loved the idea blinx had (using the hdd to turn back time and stuff)....to bad the game wasnt all that fun.

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Originally posted by epmode
i'll grant you that the the concept and general look of rez are ambitious. i suppose it comes down to what you think this topic is all about. i was basing my judgements on advances in videogame design, while ignoring stylistic achievements. perhaps it's unfair to make such a distinction.

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Raw ambition and successful execution are different things.

I don't know what era GBA would be considered, but Made in Wario is doing something stunningly different.

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Originally posted by epmode
i'll grant you that the the concept and general look of rez are ambitious. i suppose it comes down to what you think this topic is all about. i was basing my judgements on advances in videogame design, while ignoring stylistic achievements. perhaps it's unfair to make such a distinction.

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But again, even on a technical level, Rez advanced game design. Its use of dynamic sound and music is unparalleled. No game before or since had devoted that much RAM to its audio component.

I thought the idea of PSO was quite ambitious, especially when it was first announced. Sure the depth of gameplay and length might have left some people disappointed(I guess a lot of people expected a MMORPG, but what they got was Diablo), but it was the first successful online console game.

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Originally posted by StriderKyo
But again, even on a technical level, Rez advanced game design. Its use of dynamic sound and music is unparalleled. No game before or since had devoted that much RAM to its audio component.

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while it's a noteworthy feature, i still consider rez's audio integration to be more of a stylistic bonus than a revolutionary gameplay enhancement, simply because it's far too difficult to actually make an interesting mix within the game. in any case, i'm just nitpicking. we seem to agree on the game, generally speaking.

I honestly don't see(hear) how Rez' audio stands out above other games. It doesn't affect the gameplay as many claim. It's merely a good soundtrack that works well with the theme. A lot of games have done that.

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Originally posted by NeoZeedeater
I honestly don't see(hear) how Rez' audio stands out above other games. It doesn't affect the gameplay as many claim. It's merely a good soundtrack that works well with the theme. A lot of games have done that.

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If you're just playing to see the ending, it probably won't mean that much to you.

Rez is unique in that each enemy will respond by triggering different midi packets when hit/killed, whereas most games simply emit an explosion or death moan or something.

In addition, the background music itself changes, depending on how well you're doing. For instance, in Area 5 you come across a huge floating tower-like enemy. Defeat it, and the sample "killer" echoes out and a pulsing score begins playing along to the background rhythm. Fail to defeat it, and it'll fly away and the music will be reduced to a bassline and backbeat.

By combining good play with timed defeat of enemies, you are essentially conducting the soundtrack yourself (albeit along limited parameters). There are actually people on the internet who record themselves playing, and try to construct melodies from the auditory responses the game gives you.

So it's not a necessary element of the gameplay, but it is another layer that's definitely there to be exploited by those motivated to do so, which will in turn affect just how you play and take on enemies. I wasn't about to coordinate whole melodies, but I definitely found that once I realized what audio segments certain events would trigger, it changed the way I was playing, and the goals I would try to accomplish.

Wouldn't you say trying to create a game that lets you mix the ability to remix/build on a game's soundtrack while playing a shooter with a techno-abstract visual theme was at least ambitious?

I noticed the sound effects sounded musical but I never thought much of it. That is pretty cool that people have conducted their own melodies.

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Originally posted by StriderKyo
To those who would say Rez isn't ambitious, play Trancemission, then tell me what's so artistically or commercially daring about Half Life 2 or Battlefield 1942.

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I never claimed Battlefield 1942 or Half-Life 2 were particularly ambitious.

And I'm not a fan of Rez, nor do I feel it is unique on any more than a superificial level, so I suppose we'll have to agree to disagree.

PSO is considered ambitious probably in the same way that GTA3 is. GTA3 = 3D GTA 2 PSO = 3D diablo/online beatemup with diablo elements.

Shen Mue is ambitious for sure. You don't take that many people(basically every sega team working together) to make a standard adventure game. Although most of the manpower was used to make sure every single detail in the game is varied. Like every single NPC looks totally different with it's own detailed face, different textures, and AI routines. The streets are cluttered with a whole bunch of different objects like fruit, fish, garbage, posters. Most casual people would say that it's just wasted resources but they did try a lot of stuff. Maybe Shen Mue 3 will add a full fledge casino, dating/sims elements, DOA BV, underground street racing, perfect port of VF4 in the arcades. Then people will probably love it.

I don't really think that REZ is that ambitious though. it's ambitious in the way most Sega games are. They make some weird games that are unlikely to appeal to the present gaming crowd(GTA/GT3 style games with guns and suped up cars) and try to sell them. it's ambitious in a business sense I guess. Otherwise it's just a tripped out shooter.I love the game though.

GTA3 is very ambitious. I felt that the game wasn;t fleshed out well at all though.It could hav really benefited from like more manpower, a bigger budget, another two years, and a next gen system. I thought it was poorly executed but it is ambitious.

Getaway and Mafia as well. They both tried to be polished GTA3's.

I also agree with battlefield 1942 and planetside.Both games go for a lot. Same with Tribes and to a certain extent HALO.

Dynasty Warriors maybe just because the sheer amount of enemies.

Half-life 2 has some ridculously ambitious amount of interaction for a FPS. Looks like you can do so many cool things with the objects around you. Just watch one of those E3 vids. It looks insane.

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Originally posted by Kenshin Himura


Virtua Fighter 4- Although it loses the E button and variegated stage designs from VF3, the control is much better. The graphic leap over VF3 is appreciable.

Ferrari F355- Yu Suzuki wanted to make this just like driving a real Ferrari F355. In fact, you can even configure it to be a full simulation by turning off all assists. Power slides? Not here.

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VF4 has some pretty good ideas people probably don't know about.

The 3D movement is amazing now. Complete with 8-way run, seperate levels of dodges ie. double tap for mid distance, triple tap to dodge behind.Some characters even have their own special dodges. not to mention moves with built in evade properties. Fighting games that keep track of the side of both characters probably can't get more 3D than VF4.

The idea of walled arenas and ring outs. The cool part is the ring out tactics now consist of breaking a certain walled arena first in order to have a ring out opportunity in certain stages. A brilliant touch to fighting game design.

The sabaki moves. Moves with built in counter properties. Not only can you use these moves to hit an opponent normally, you can time them as counters. Meaning certain counters aren't just re-active anymore. I'm not talking about counter move in the sense that if oyu hit them first. I'm talking knock away an attack and the follow through hurts them.

Hopefully VF5 takes this to a whole new level with a really advanced physics and hit detection engine. Allowing you to basically kick an opponents leg away with any normal kick or knock an opponents hand away with any normal punch. Provided it makes sense of course. Meaning a direct attack move like a front boot can only knock away slower horizontal attacks like a turn around kick that moves in a horizontal sweeping arc.

F355 is just damn great. Nothing too ambitious except maybe the three screens in the arcade. Other games wen't for total realism before like hard driving or was it race driving? Anyways the game is great and deserves props for being a RACING game with lots of realism. I have RACING in capitolized because most sims are more like DRIVING sims like hard driving. Too much emphasis on driving around a block but not enough on the aspects of racing. GT3 is more like a CAR COLLECTING, CRUSING IN YOUR SUPED UP CAR sim.So it's basically a Jay Leno garage sim. I give polyphony props for bringing the series online though. Now they have to concentrate on the multi-player/racing aspects. Let's hope they don't spend too much time on making the graphics crazy, making a lot of cars, and making a lot of tracks. Since GT4 is supposed to have a ridiculous amount, it's making me wonder if they can make it into a great racing game.

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Originally posted by StriderKyo By combining good play with timed defeat of enemies, you are essentially conducting the soundtrack yourself (albeit along limited parameters). There are actually people on the internet who record themselves playing, and try to construct melodies from the auditory responses the game gives you.

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Rock. Links? :)