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It astonishing how this went so far off topic. That's probably why I haven't revisited this thread for a week now. God I hate it when people make snap assumtions about your "true intentions," by reading between the non-existant lines, and go off on long winded tyrades about how your putting them down. No matter how well you justify or point out how wrong they are wrong in their misinterpritation, they continue believing that they're right. I guess that's the nature of ignorance.
Woah there. I wasn't saying I don't like you, or your approach to your job...and now if you'll kindly stop putting words in my mouth, I'll explain.Quote:
Originally posted by BonusKun
Heh, You would like that wouldn't you? No. Sorry as much as I would like to please everyone I'm not going to. 2ndly if you have a problem with the way I try to do my job then speak your peace.
Keeping thread discussions on an even and open level without people letting their tempers get the best of them is my job. If you don't like it then I kindly suggest you go somewhere else.
Your excuse was invalid. You make it sound as if you have absolutely no control over whether or not you view the relegion threads. You're a victim. All I was doing was showing you that yes, you and only you, are responcible.
You said you have to read them because you're a mod and it's part of your job? Not only do you not have to read them by choosing not to, because there are many other mods here as well, but you could also resign from your station and put us on ignore.
It's your choice to read this crap. Don't blame us. And don't think we'll be quiet under any penealty you've presented. We have acted in accordance with the ToS. We are not name calling, shouting, or presenting our views in an offensive manner. All offence taken stems from everyone elses pre-disposed position concerning christinaity, and not a damned single one of us here who loves Jesus Christ.
You seem to be pretty pre-disposed yourself concerning this topic.
'Then Resign' was pretty much a straightfoward shot to a response if anything.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
Woah there. I wasn't saying I don't like you, or your approach to your job...and now if you'll kindly stop putting words in my mouth, I'll explain.
Actually it's called a job *with no benefits mind you. ;)*.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
Your excuse was invalid. You make it sound as if you have absolutely no control over whether or not you view the relegion threads. You're a victim. All I was doing was showing you that yes, you and only you, are responcible.
Would you morally turn a blind eye to a problem knowing you can solve it or would you just walk away knowing that to sometimes doing the right thing involves things you don't want to do.
Heh, Resign. I thought about it once but to be honest I've done a lot of good here and have enjoyed helping people from time to time that the problems that do arise are only a real minor annoynce. The good far outweighs the bad in this case.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
You said you have to read them because you're a mod and it's part of your job? Not only do you not have to read them by choosing not to, because there are many other mods here as well, but you could also resign from your station and put us on ignore.
Who says you have to be quiet? I just want you guys to act like civil human beings and not some retarted monkeys who get pissy and start throwing shit at people when you don't agree or like what they say. That's not a hard thing to ask is it? As far as Religion on the whole goes, I would prefer personally not to discuss religion seeing as I've seen it time & time again turn into a stupid flame war over beliefs.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
It's your choice to read this crap. Don't blame us. And don't think we'll be quiet under any penealty you've presented. We have acted in accordance with the ToS. We are not name calling, shouting, or presenting our views in an offensive manner. All offence taken stems from everyone elses pre-disposed position concerning christinaity, and not a damned single one of us here who loves Jesus Christ.
However, if something does come up or gets out of hand, you'd better expect me to say/or do something about it.
This is a trusim which you cannot deny because for the most part I respect everyone's personal beliefs but, I will not tolerate your beliefs getting in the way of your good judgement.
This would in turn be exampled by, hating, foul language, personal insults, ect ect. That's the main thing I'm trying to drive home to you more than anything. As long as you don't piss others off, I could care less what you do.
I'm more indifferent than anything. I've been a part of these forums before even Gamego! came into existance and I've seen my fair share of relgious & non-religious hate theads that I've come to expect certain things to rear up regardless of the people posting.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
You seem to be pretty pre-disposed yourself concerning this topic.
It's a harsh way of looking at things but i find it's easier to deal with a problem more than fairly and trying to give both sides of the arguement the due respect they deserve.
Fair enough. I've never had a problem with you and don't want you to resign in the least, but it got may dander up, you coming in here and without participating telling me I was forcing my beliefs down other's throats and being generally uncivil, which I wasn't.
;)
DISCLAIMER - in this post, I say stuff like 'my God' a couple of times. I just want it straight that I, like you, believe in One God. When I say that I'm just referrig to my interpretation of what God is, not insinuating that there are, or ever could be, more than one Father.
Jesus is the only true, three-dimensional presentation of God we have to go on. Jesus forgave tax collectors, prostitutes and criminals. Never was he jealous and in fact, some of the time he looked past the individual people's transgressions and blamed Satan directly.Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
This is wrong. You believe in a one-dimentional falacy. God is love, yes, but God is just, God cannot bear the prescence of sin, and God is jealous. You simply cannot leave those parts out because they sound "hateful" or because they don't paint a portrait of "love."
I agree. Sorry, that was my bad. I meant his views portray the view of God that is found in the Old Testament. For me, at least, the portrayal we get in the New Testament is that which is important, as it actually deals with God in a form we, as humans, can understand. It deals with his words, directly to us - humankind - and not through a vessel of a single prophet.Quote:
Second, in one of your previous posts, you mention that Seven's is "portraying the God of the OT." I don't know about you, but my God, that is Jesus Christ, The Eternal Father, and the Holy Spirit, never change. He is the Alpha and Omega, the Ancient of days, the same yesterday, today, and forever.
My God is The Father too. He created every last one of us, and is bound by parenthood to EVERY SINGLE THING ON THIS EARTH. Ergo, I think, it follows that he loves us all - that's what being a parent is. Love, through everything. Coupled with Jesus' teaching of forgiveness in the New Testament, I see absolutely no evidence to suggest that God's love for us would wane so much as for him to allow himself to banish ANY of his children to the kind of torment which hell is supposed to be. I can't see a parent doing that, and I certainly can't see the Father - THE parent - doing it.Quote:
Then you simply do not understand Him. First of all, the statement should read, "If God is truly all loving, I don't see how he can justify sending anybody to Hell." Condemnation is very much a part of justice. How could a just God not damn anyone to Hell?
And you know what? An all loving God wouldn't send anyone to Hell...but my God is not so one dimentional. My God is Justice, Love, Peace, Wrath, and the only true God. My God's name is Jesus; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.
*prepare for me to show my ignorance*Quote:
I most definitly can. I said what I said here extremely respectfully, and knowing full well you're not going to "change your mind," as it were. Are you Unitarian by any chance?
I have no idea what Unitarian means. Strange as it may seem, I am a Roman Catholic (if Unitarianism is, as I am assuming, a denomination of Christianity).
Here we have the problem I have. A parent? Banishing ANY child of theirs to that sort of torment? No... I can't believe that. NOTHING you could EVER do on earth would be deserving of that. Not even Satan himself could be said to deserve that kind of punishment.Quote:
And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh. KJV Isaiah 66:24
Clearly speaking about humans in Hell, and their punishment being unending. An undying worm, and an immutable fire. Seems eternal to me, as well as tormenting.
Please don't tell me it was OT and therefore not relivant. Isaiah spoke about Jesus as well, thereby proving his prophesy to hold true to the NT covenant.
This is it, see. I believe in the Afterlife - an infinite heaven and eternal life for all. The way I see it, infinity is a hell of a long time.
Justice is NOT condemning people to TORTURE for INFINITY because of something they did in a 100-year space on Earth - something which, HOWEVER bad it was, can never harm another person's immortal soul. Do you see what I mean? If there is an infinite afterlife, our time on earth is NOTHING. I find it hard to believe that my God could condemn people to that for what is, after all, nothing more than a drop in the ocean. Less than that - on an infinite scale, 100 years is nothing. The split second in which you carried out that mortal sin... is less than nothing. I don't see that as being just.
By the way... Seven... you mentioned earlier about it not being a case of how good or bad you were, but of appearing in the Lamb's book? How would one go about getting into this book? Does that not portray God as being unjust and petty? I really don't see the logic behind it if a mass-murderer whose name WAS in the book would go to heaven while, say, if Mother Theresa of Calcutta's name was NOT in the book then she would be banished to the eternal fire? Have I got the right idea here? If so... there HAS to be something more to it than that. Has to be.
Understood. Most of the problem we're having is a symantics issue anyways. IE You say it differently than I do. ;)Quote:
Originally posted by red_war_machine
DISCLAIMER - in this post, I say stuff like 'my God' a couple of times. I just want it straight that I, like you, believe in One God. When I say that I'm just referrig to my interpretation of what God is, not insinuating that there are, or ever could be, more than one Father.
Not always. Jesus also stood in judgement of the Pharasees and Scribes. He even asked His own apostles how long He would have to suffer their lack of faith, clearly expressing impatience.Quote:
Jesus is the only true, three-dimensional presentation of God we have to go on. Jesus forgave tax collectors, prostitutes and criminals. Never was he jealous and in fact, some of the time he looked past the individual people's transgressions and blamed Satan directly.
He never, ever, EVER tollerated sin.
I understand, but in order to get a complete picture of God you must consult the OT as well. God is more than Jesus Christ as a human being during the time of His earthly ministry.Quote:
I agree. Sorry, that was my bad. I meant his views portray the view of God that is found in the Old Testament. For me, at least, the portrayal we get in the New Testament is that which is important, as it actually deals with God in a form we, as humans, can understand. It deals with his words, directly to us - humankind - and not through a vessel of a single prophet.
Ah! Now we get down to the meat of the argument. God is a loving parent, that much is true, but as a loving parent, do you think He would turn a blind eye to the injust, incorrect, or sometimes downright evil actions of His children? If your child were to, say, steal a piece of candy, would you not punish him or her justly to teach them what is correct behavior? Yes you would.Quote:
My God is The Father too. He created every last one of us, and is bound by parenthood to EVERY SINGLE THING ON THIS EARTH. Ergo, I think, it follows that he loves us all - that's what being a parent is. Love, through everything. Coupled with Jesus' teaching of forgiveness in the New Testament, I see absolutely no evidence to suggest that God's love for us would wane so much as for him to allow himself to banish ANY of his children to the kind of torment which hell is supposed to be. I can't see a parent doing that, and I certainly can't see the Father - THE parent - doing it.
This is the same with God, but of a more eternal nature. God cannot stand the presence of sin, as our Bible puts it. Sin is eternally punishable by being put out of the presence of God. That's all. It's like being sent to your room for a long, long, long...LOOOOOONG time. But with more fire. ;)
Unitarianism, or Universalism, is the belief that all will be saved in the end, reguardless. This is what you seem to believe, unless I've grossly misunderstood you...which is very possible. ;)Quote:
*prepare for me to show my ignorance*
I have no idea what Unitarian means. Strange as it may seem, I am a Roman Catholic (if Unitarianism is, as I am assuming, a denomination of Christianity).
Who are you to say what man deserves? It is God, and Him alone, Who decides what happens in the end, as described in His word, the Bible. Hell is very much a part of that reality. If it weren't, there would have been no use in mentioning it in reference to human beings.Quote:
Here we have the problem I have. A parent? Banishing ANY child of theirs to that sort of torment? No... I can't believe that. NOTHING you could EVER do on earth would be deserving of that. Not even Satan himself could be said to deserve that kind of punishment.
That was cute. ;)Quote:
This is it, see. I believe in the Afterlife - an infinite heaven and eternal life for all. The way I see it, infinity is a hell of a long time.
It sounds to me like you are, in fact, a universalist, and not Roman Catholic. You attend a Roman Catholic church, but as the catacysm doesn't teach universalism, and teaches the exact opposite, you wouldn't rightly be called "Catholic." Not that that's a bad thing.
It's right there in black and white in the Bible. If you don't believe it, how do you reconcile it being there in the first place?Quote:
Justice is NOT condemning people to TORTURE for INFINITY because of something they did in a 100-year space on Earth - something which, HOWEVER bad it was, can never harm another person's immortal soul. Do you see what I mean? If there is an infinite afterlife, our time on earth is NOTHING. I find it hard to believe that my God could condemn people to that for what is, after all, nothing more than a drop in the ocean. Less than that - on an infinite scale, 100 years is nothing. The split second in which you carried out that mortal sin... is less than nothing. I don't see that as being just.
To get into His Book of Life He must know you. For Him to know you...now there's a worthy question!Quote:
By the way... Seven... you mentioned earlier about it not being a case of how good or bad you were, but of appearing in the Lamb's book? How would one go about getting into this book? Does that not portray God as being unjust and petty? I really don't see the logic behind it if a mass-murderer whose name WAS in the book would go to heaven while, say, if Mother Theresa of Calcutta's name was NOT in the book then she would be banished to the eternal fire? Have I got the right idea here? If so... there HAS to be something more to it than that. Has to be.
Check this website out. It does much to explain your point of view in reference to the Bible.
Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
To get into His Book of Life He must know you.
There it is right there.
You're missed, man. Don't let what Bonus Kun says stear you from participating here. Your input is needed. :DQuote:
Originally posted by Master of 7s
There it is right there.
bonus, if you want to stop flame wars, kindly limit almaci to 1 political thread at a time. it seems hypocritical to complain about religion threads when the political threads are spammy, could be condensed into one,and are all out flame wars. k'thanks
Heh, don't fret. I just decided to duck out of this for now. Besides you've already said everything I would have anyway.;)Quote:
Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
You're missed, man. Don't let what Bonus Kun says stear you from participating here. Your input is needed. :D
Captain already covered the part about a good parent punishing sin to correct a wayward child, so I'll cover the other part.Quote:
Originally posted by red_war_machine
My God is The Father too. He created every last one of us, and is bound by parenthood to EVERY SINGLE THING ON THIS EARTH. Ergo, I think, it follows that he loves us all - that's what being a parent is. Love, through everything. Coupled with Jesus' teaching of forgiveness in the New Testament, I see absolutely no evidence to suggest that God's love for us would wane so much as for him to allow himself to banish ANY of his children to the kind of torment which hell is supposed to be. I can't see a parent doing that, and I certainly can't see the Father - THE parent - doing it.
"Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven. Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in your name?' And then I will to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'" Matthew 7:21-23
That's pretty cut and dry right there. Jesus Himself said that not everyone who calls His name is entitiled to a portion of the Kingdom, but only those obey God the Father. This is clearly meant to illustrate the difference between Christian in name and Christian in spirit. Rest assured, God is obligated to NO ONE on this earth except for the Jews because of the covenant He made with Abraham, Issac and Jacob/Isreal.
As I stated before, all things are CREATIONS of God, but not all are CHILDREN of God. The difference is clear in that God's children hear His voice and heed its word. Likewise with the children of the devil, whom all are by default if they are not children of God.
And you would be 100% correct excepting the fact those who are not children of God deserve no consideration in such matters. If you, as a parent, decide you want to set up an all out bash for your children and your children alone are you going to tolerate some druken, foul-smelling party crasher you don't know stumbling in univited? I know I wouldn't and neither would God.Quote:
Here we have the problem I have. A parent? Banishing ANY child of theirs to that sort of torment? No... I can't believe that. NOTHING you could EVER do on earth would be deserving of that. Not even Satan himself could be said to deserve that kind of punishment.
Read Matthew 22:1-14 if you want proof.
And let's be crystal on something when satan was called Lucifer, he was a servant not a child. He was a servant who turned on his Master because of pride and arrogance and now deceives the nations daily. For this he is eternally damned. End of story.
The nature of ALL mankind is inherently evil. There is no good in man. His every thought turns to sin and how bring it about. The punishment does not come solely because of commited sin, but also because of the refusal to turn away from sin. Think about it. If a persons soul is corrupt, debased, and unsound in life, what makes you think that's going to change in the afterlife? If they wouldn't listen to God's words in life then all they will find is death because God's word is life.Quote:
Justice is NOT condemning people to TORTURE for INFINITY because of something they did in a 100-year space on Earth - something which, HOWEVER bad it was, can never harm another person's immortal soul. Do you see what I mean? If there is an infinite afterlife, our time on earth is NOTHING. I find it hard to believe that my God could condemn people to that for what is, after all, nothing more than a drop in the ocean. Less than that - on an infinite scale, 100 years is nothing. The split second in which you carried out that mortal sin... is less than nothing. I don't see that as being just.
Allowing that kind of madness into heaven is naught but a recipe for strife, chaos, and confusion. God is the author of none of these and therefore those that practice them will not be allowed in His prescence.
Unjust and petty? Hardly. A personal and approachable God? Definitely.Quote:
By the way... Seven... you mentioned earlier about it not being a case of how good or bad you were, but of appearing in the Lamb's book? How would one go about getting into this book? Does that not portray God as being unjust and petty? I really don't see the logic behind it if a mass-murderer whose name WAS in the book would go to heaven while, say, if Mother Theresa of Calcutta's name was NOT in the book then she would be banished to the eternal fire? Have I got the right idea here? If so... there HAS to be something more to it than that. Has to be.
You know the people you like and the people you don't like, why should God be any different? Why should God have to put up with jerks and assholes if you wouldn't? Simply put, if God knows you on a personal level, then your name is in the Book. It begins with the confession of Jesus Christ as Lord with your mouth and the belief that He is risen in your heart.