Does Homophobia Truly Exist...?

You hear words like homophobia, and homophobic thrown around all the time these days.

I believe homophobia is largely a made up word (mostly by the media), to make it seem like the person who doesn't accept or endorse the homosexual lifestle suddenly has some sort of disease.
If anyone says anything remotely unaccepting of the homosexual lifestyle they are often categorized as being a "homophobe" and made out to have some type of condition.

I'm guessing that homophobia probably only exists in rare cirumstances where a person truly fears and is scared of a homosexual. I've never witnessed or even heard of someone with these symptons, although I'm sure a few must exist.

It's completely ridiculous and irresponsible to categorize all people as such.

Am I wrong? Or is there a near epidemic of people out there who truly fear a homosexual person...?

It's completely ridiculous and irresponsible to fear/hate/dislike homosexuals. Might as well balance it out.

Yes, it does truly exist...

... and it's not fun.

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Originally posted by Calliander
It's completely ridiculous and irresponsible to fear/hate/dislike homosexuals. Might as well balance it out.

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How about answering my question.

Do you believe there is a near epidemic of people out there who have a true fear of a homosexual person?

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Originally posted by warnpro
Am I wrong?

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Yes. Very.

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Do you believe there is a near epidemic of people out there who have a true fear of a homosexual person?

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Not sure what more I can say, other than yes, there are millions of people in America who fear, hate, and commit violence upon homosexuals.

I agree the word homophobe is pretty misleading. I think the media should use the word shithead instead as it`s far more descriptive of such shallow people.

I believe that homophobia exsists whole heartedly. I once knew a girl who was deathly afraid of cabbage. So yeah, I think the concept of someone fearing or being uncomfortable around a gay person is likely.

You're wrong. Just visit any rural area and you'll find people who take it upon themselves to be actually frightened of gays and gayness. It goes far beyond being unaccepting of the lifestyle and into serious hate and again, fear. Phobia is irrational fear for no apparent reason and I've witnessed a huge cross section of folks that are without question homophobes. I suppose I have an interesting perspective in that my mother is lesbian and she lives in Idaho. I'm sure many other states have similar groups but I can think of several "religious" organizations in Idaho whose entire claim to fame is homophobia. Literally everything spewed forth by their various mouthpieces and figureheads is some would-be earth shattering expose on the homosexual community's latest "attack on traditional values" (everything's a war in this fine country) and what to do about wiping the godless heathens out for good.

Now that's homophobia in a big way.

Pa

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Originally posted by PaCrappa
I suppose I have an interesting perspective in that my mother is lesbian and she lives in Idaho.
Pa

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I find that cool for some reason.

I think homophobia does exist. People can fear just about anything, and quite a few folks out there fear what they don't understand. Often times, for whatever reason, homosexuality is one of those things they don't understand.

I'm well aware that hatred and crimes against homosexuals is quite prevalent.
However hatred of gays doesn't automically equate to a rational fear of them. Hate does not always equal fear. I hate one of my ex's but I sure as shit don't fear her. :-)

I guess I am wrong though, real fear is much more widespread than I believed, going by the posts so far in this thread anyway.

I admit to being rather uncomfortable around public homosexual affection, but then again I'm not a big fan of P.D.A.'s in general. Wouldn't call it a phobia, just a believer that if to guys/girls/sheep whatever are gonna be making out, they should hop behind a closed door. Nobody wants to see that shit.

Now saying there's no such thing as homophobia is a blatent miscalculation; we're in a culture where "gay" is tossed around as a synonym for "stupid". It's something that has a stigma attached to it, and deeply deeply feared by those who might just have a borderline attraction to their own sex.

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Originally posted by warnpro
How about answering my question.

Do you believe there is a near epidemic of people out there who have a true fear of a homosexual person?

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I think it's reasonably safe to say "homophobia" is the correct word. A phobia does not have to be a totally irrational and terrifying reaction to something. You could be mildly afraid of heights and still be considered an acrophobe. Following suit, you can be a homophobe and not jump up on a table as though you'd seen a mouse or something. I don't think you need to have a true fear of a gay person to be a homophobe, though I do agree that a lot of people who get called it are not.

To me, a homophobe would be someone who is very uncomfortable around gay people. You know, avoiding eye contact, not shaking hands, possibly talking behind the person's back, stuff like that. That doesn't make that person bad, but they still have that mild fear. Whereas, as Sidez suggested, there should be a stronger term for assholes who say things like, "All fags should die!" and "The only good homosexual is a dead homosexual!"

Did you get called a homophobe by someone? :)

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Originally posted by YellerDog
I admit to being rather uncomfortable around public homosexual affection, but then again I'm not a big fan of P.D.A.'s in general. Wouldn't call it a phobia, just a believer that if to guys/girls/sheep whatever are gonna be making out, they should hop behind a closed door. Nobody wants to see that shit.

Now saying there's no such thing as homophobia is a blatent miscalculation; we're in a culture where "gay" is tossed around as a synonym for "stupid". It's something that has a stigma attached to it, and deeply deeply feared by those who might just have a borderline attraction to their own sex.

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I don't give a shit what anyone does in the privacy of their own homes, so long as I don't have to hear about it.

I never said homophobia doesn't exist. I said in rare cases it must however I've never encountered or heard of someone who truly has "phobia" of homosexuals.

I think the fear is very real, but I think the reason for the fear is the fact that those people who are homophobes may have had some homosexual feelings and are afraid to confront them. They are afraid of what they might find out about themselves. They have more often than no been told that being gay is wrong/bad/evil and they truly are afraid of the conesquenses of thier feelings if they give into them. Sadly, the only way they feel that they can deal with that is to behave and act in a negative manor towards other homosexuals. I have always believed that if you ar %100 comfortable with who you are and your own sexuality, there is no reason to hate or fear anyone else.

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Originally posted by YellerDog
I admit to being rather uncomfortable around public homosexual affection, but then again I'm not a big fan of P.D.A.'s in general. Wouldn't call it a phobia, just a believer that if to guys/girls/sheep whatever are gonna be making out, they should hop behind a closed door. Nobody wants to see that shit.

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Why? What`s wrong with that? Why should homosexuals moderate displays of public affection whilst apparently it`s ok for hetero people to make out in public? I would call your attitude homophobic but not in the stupid way the media throw around the term. No offense like.

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Originally posted by Sidez
Why? What`s wrong with that? Why should homosexuals moderate displays of public affection whilst apparently it`s ok for hetero people to make out in public? I would call your attitude homophobic but not in the stupid way the media throw around the term. No offense like.

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No, he was saying that he doesn't care if it's a man/woman, man/man, man/sheep - he doesn't like to see it in public.

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Originally posted by Sidez
Why? What`s wrong with that? Why should homosexuals moderate displays of public affection whilst apparently it`s ok for hetero people to make out in public?

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ahem
...but then again I'm not a big fan of P.D.A.'s in general.

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Ahh apologies.

hey it`s 5am and i`m in the middle of a VF4E session!

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Originally posted by Calliander
I think it's reasonably safe to say "homophobia" is the correct word. A phobia does not have to be a totally irrational and terrifying reaction to something. You could be mildly afraid of heights and still be considered an acrophobe. Following suit, you can be a homophobe and not jump up on a table as though you'd seen a mouse or something. I don't think you need to have a true fear of a gay person to be a homophobe, though I do agree that a lot of people who get called it are not.

To me, a homophobe would be someone who is very uncomfortable around gay people. You know, avoiding eye contact, not shaking hands, possibly talking behind the person's back, stuff like that. That doesn't make that person bad, but they still have that mild fear. Whereas, as Sidez suggested, there should be a stronger term for assholes who say things like, "All fags should die!" and "The only good homosexual is a dead homosexual!"

Did you get called a homophobe by someone? :)

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You make some excellent points.

Actually yes, I was called a homophobe about 10 years ago, (I can't recall what I said to warrant that comment but it was nothing vulgar) and I had never heard that word used before at the time. I remember stopping at the time, and trying to think exactly what the word meant.

Cool! It's four in the afternoon here!

This thread doesn't seem to be addressing the millions of christians out there who consider it a mortal sin. Not exactly homophobes, per se...not sure what to call that. Dogmatic non-thinking?

"I find that cool for some reason."

Oh man... now ya done it. Anecdote time!

I booked my buddies The Eric McFadden Trio a show at my friend's club in Boise for Monday June 23rd (just a couple days ago). Being from there and having one million friends who like good music, I took a little vacation to go drink heavily and hype up my buddies' show. My mom works til about midnight at St Luke's, the big hospital. I heard that she showed up at the show so I jumped the fuck up to go and find her. Just as I reached her I was accosted by this foxy and very promiscuous young lady. She proceeded to hang all over my person while I was trying to talk to my mom. On the one hand she's fine but on the other, I've known her for eleven years and no way am I gonna bang her. Now, it's widely known that my mom's a lesbian. So just as I'm getting annoyed with this klingon girl, it comes to her attention that we're standing in the presence of my mom, ya know, the lesbian. So this girl freaks out with the standard "ooooh! I've heard so much about you!" and the went straight into gay rights discussion. My mom doesn't care who you are, where you're from or how drunk you are, gay rights and civil rights is her thang and that's what she talks about. So this girl carries on for a few and gradually starts moving in on my mom. After maybe one more minute she blurts out some shit about how she wrote a 39 page report on the gay rights movement for college and basically trades me in to start climbing on my mother, eeewwwwwww. At this point, I was fed up. I wanted to talk to my mama unhindered by drunken biddies. But here's the best part: My mom, the true playa, says to her "how bout you give me the digits and we'll get together and check out that report." And she got 'em.

LOL, that absolutely slayed me. I get in all kinds of silly situations when I party with moms, but to me, that one was just ridiculously funny. Probably had to be there or something :)

Pa

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Originally posted by FuryFox
This thread doesn't seem to be addressing the millions of christians out there who consider it a mortal sin. Not exactly homophobes, per se...not sure what to call that. Dogmatic non-thinking?

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Intolerant, backward, self righteous idiots.

I bet you all the major religions were started by Straight men. And it was straight men that followed it. So they made up the rules. For example, in Islam..having 4 wives = good and holy. Having gay lovers = death....hmmm...

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Originally posted by FuryFox
This thread doesn't seem to be addressing the millions of christians out there who consider it a mortal sin. Not exactly homophobes, per se...not sure what to call that. Dogmatic non-thinking?

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I agree, but the media, and others often times labels these "dogmatic non-thinkers" as being homophobic.

Just because someone believes its a sin, does not mean they have an irrational fear of homosexuality.

Well, Catholics don't believe in condom use either. It's a sin! :D

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Originally posted by PaCrappa
"I find that cool for some reason."

Oh man... now ya done it. Anecdote time!

I booked my buddies The Eric McFadden Trio a show at my friend's club in Boise for Monday June 23rd (just a couple days ago). Being from there and having one million friends who like good music, I took a little vacation to go drink heavily and hype up my buddies' show. My mom works til about midnight at St Luke's, the big hospital. I heard that she showed up at the show so I jumped the fuck up to go and find her. Just as I reached her I was accosted by this foxy and very promiscuous young lady. She proceeded to hang all over my person while I was trying to talk to my mom. On the one hand she's fine but on the other, I've known her for eleven years and no way am I gonna bang her. Now, it's widely known that my mom's a lesbian. So just as I'm getting annoyed with this klingon girl, it comes to her attention that we're standing in the presence of my mom, ya know, the lesbian. So this girl freaks out with the standard "ooooh! I've heard so much about you!" and the went straight into gay rights discussion. My mom doesn't care who you are, where you're from or how drunk you are, gay rights and civil rights is her thang and that's what she talks about. So this girl carries on for a few and gradually starts moving in on my mom. After maybe one more minute she blurts out some shit about how she wrote a 39 page report on the gay rights movement for college and basically trades me in to start climbing on my mother, eeewwwwwww. At this point, I was fed up. I wanted to talk to my mama unhindered by drunken biddies. But here's the best part: My mom, the true playa, says to her "how bout you give me the digits and we'll get together and check out that report." And she got 'em.

LOL, that absolutely slayed me. I get in all kinds of silly situations when I party with moms, but to me, that one was just ridiculously funny. Probably had to be there or something :)

Pa

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:lol:

That's not what I meant by it being cool, but cool.

Religion + Sex = Bad combination.

On a side note, the supreme court today overturned a the Texas Sodomy Law today. I can't wait to hear the outcry from all the rightwing conservatives. "God will strike you down if you have anal sex!!", like god doesn't have better things to do with his time...:rolleyes:

Yeah, I just saw that on the news. Weird shit. Was this a reaction to the Canadian legalization case?

Didn't know there was a Canadian case. I just think that the judges realized what a dumb ass law it was in the first place.

In his dissent, Scalia -- joined by Chief Justice William Rehnquist and Justice Clarence Thomas -- said the court "has largely signed on to the so-called homosexual agenda."

Now that is an idiotic statement...homosexual agenda...I didn't know there was a conspiracy to turn the whole world gay!!

Idiots.

Just a couple weeks ago we legalized gay marriages. Interesting the American case came so soon.

Awesome story Pa.

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Originally posted by Sidez
Intolerant, backward, self righteous idiots.

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I don't believe in, condone, or practice anything homosexual.

I don't frown down on it either. What someone does in their home is their business. Am I a homophobe? I don't think so. What someone does with their life is their life, their will, their choice. How am I supposed to re-engineer someone because I don't do what they do? That's like someone bringing down the Hammer of Sega down on all the non-believers - it's ridiculous.

What I don't understand is...I don't feel the need to flaunt sexuality. What I do is my business, and I like to keep it that way. Just like I don't care to have heterosexual content thrown and pushed in my face and demanded that I 'accept it' (watch MTV, cable, ANY TV really, read magazines, go to clubs, visit college, and on and on), I feel the same way about homosexuality.

What you do is is what you do. Let it be and if it's what fufills you, leave it at that. I don't see why anyone of any orientation has to 'prove' themselves to society.

It does exist... obviously. There is a difference between "I don't agree with their lifestyle" and "DIE YOU STUPID F*G." :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Sidez
Intolerant, backward, self righteous idiots.

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Would that make you a Christianphobe? Labeling an entire group on the actions and beliefs of a small portion sounds just as bad as labeling homosexuals. I'm a Christian and I've had 3 homosexual friends that I knew were gay. I didn't aprove of they're choice of sexual partner anymore than I did of the young guys and girls in my H.S. that were engaging in premarital sex, but I didn't judge or descriminate against them for it either. Just because I hold myself to a certain standard dosen't mean I'm an intolerant, backward, self righteous idiot.

I agree with Hero that having sex shoved in your face constantly is annoying, I don't care who's having it with who.

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Originally posted by Brisco Bold
Yeah, I just saw that on the news. Weird shit. Was this a reaction to the Canadian legalization case?

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large amounts of indifference.

oh,and jester hit the nail on the head. i think sidez showed his colors when he immediatly flew off and called warn a homophobe without even reading his post, thats about the mind set. He then immendiatly generalized a large group of people with a narrow characterization, thats about it.

I do beleive it exists in the incidents where there is violence or genuine hostility, but it is radically overused

To the Canadian case?

pretty much.

I'm not surprised...

there has been some discussion as to wether marriages in canada would be considered valid in the us, but the earlier affirmitive action and the current rulings have dominated the news so far. we will probably get to it eventually.

Hopefully.

well, there was a law between Canada and US that would uphold marriages from one country in another (and vice versa). So even if we don't legalize homosexual marriage, would that mean people could go to Canada, get it done, and come back to the US as married?

That's the forefront of the debate, from what I've heard.

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Originally posted by Orta
It does exist... obviously. There is a difference between "I don't agree with their lifestyle" and "DIE YOU STUPID F*G." :rolleyes:

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Then here's the to-the-point question; where does one draw the line?

You show one end of the spectrum and the other, but what is the ground where someone can say 'oh yeah, this guy's got issues?' Does it exist closer to the extreme (DIE), or closer to the middle of the two?

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However hatred of gays doesn't automically equate to a rational fear of them. Hate does not always equal fear. I hate one of my ex's but I sure as shit don't fear her. :-)

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Yes it does and yes you do.

Hate is nothing more than an offshoot of fear.

Not true, it's an offshoot of anger too. I'm not afraid of one of my old roommates but damn was she a stupid bitch. I don't know if I'd use hate but I can definitely say I very much dislike her, very strongly.

My intense dislike is from understanding, but I'd say 99% of homophobia is from ignorance. It's possible to get to the same point from more than one path.

James

So you fear being around her?

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Originally posted by Rick
Yes it does and yes you do.

Hate is nothing more than an offshoot of fear.

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You are simply wrong, I don't fear my ex one bit. I would know.

If you think hate automatically equals fear, you are dead wrong.
A strong dislike for someone/something doesn't mean you fear them/it.

I hate going grocery shopping, but I certainly don't fear it.

Er... me or Warnpro?

As I said, I'm not afraid to be around her but it would aggravate the living crap out of me. I'm not afraid of being aggravated, attaining that state on almost a daily basis for one reason or another, but I don't need to seek it out either.

On the bright side I've no idea what happened to her. She could have turned her life around and gotten married with a kid and a house in the burbs or she could (most likely, oh darn) be dead in a ditch somewhere. Either way, knowing it's not my problem any more is always a source of happiness.

Yeah, so anyway. Hate doesn't necessarily equate to fear. Deal with it.

James

It doesn't necessarily have to be complete dread to be fear, slight apprehension is still fear.

But it's not critical to the point, so I'll drop it.

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Originally posted by Rick
It doesn't necessarily have to be complete dread to be fear, slight apprehension is still fear.

But it's not critical to the point, so I'll drop it.

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I agree, squabbling over semantics is mostly unproductive.

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Hate is nothing more than an offshoot of fear.

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I wouldn't call it an offshoot, but they are very much intertwined.

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What I don't understand is...I don't feel the need to flaunt sexuality. What I do is my business, and I like to keep it that way. Just like I don't care to have heterosexual content thrown and pushed in my face and demanded that I 'accept it' (watch MTV, cable, ANY TV really, read magazines, go to clubs, visit college, and on and on), I feel the same way about homosexuality.

What you do is is what you do. Let it be and if it's what fufills you, leave it at that. I don't see why anyone of any orientation has to 'prove' themselves to society.

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You're right, they shouldn't have to prove themselves. But they do, because of the bigotry and supression. It's a backlash against those who tried to keep them down and since we live in a time when most Americans (I can't speak for other countries) are still getting used to having homosexuals abound, they will still fight for equality. They are still largely repressed and there is still a lot of hate against them.

The same sort of thing happened in America for blacks and women (and there's still a lot of the same crap still floating around from both sides), and it's happening again. Do they flaunt it heavily? Yep. Is their oppression extremely strong and vicious? Yep, to this very day. There are still a great many people in the US who won't tolerate anything "different," which is why things like reminding the public that they are around is needed. If they go quiet then so too will even those who are afraid to tell their family and friends of their sexual orientation, just because they'll feel alone.

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Originally posted by Jester
Would that make you a Christianphobe?

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Seeing as how he was labelling a specific group of Christians, not likely.

http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/6175557.htm

An article on the Supreme Court's overturning of the sodomy laws in all 13 states that still have them on the books. Some great legal comedy in there, such as pointing out that Texas had oral/anal sex illegal for gays yet legal for straights, and Judge Scalia's line that this ruling "effectively decrees the end to all morals legislation." I'm trying to find the downside to courts being restricted to defining law based on something other than an arbitrary, opinionated moral code.

James

Good to see there are a lot of openminded non-homophobic people around here.

And thanks for reminding me, I just remembered that a good lesbian friend of mine who just recently got married is having her wedding reception shortly and I need to get something nice to wear! :D

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Originally posted by Abobo
Religion + Sex = Bad combination.

On a side note, the supreme court today overturned a the Texas Sodomy Law today. I can't wait to hear the outcry from all the rightwing conservatives. "God will strike you down if you have anal sex!!", like god doesn't have better things to do with his time...:rolleyes:

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I thought that was done a few weeks ago?! And there already was, I think it was some Pa Republican that said that the ruling will lead to pedophilia and beastiality.

Ahhh...good old Rick Santorum. That guy should have been strung up by his balls! It's really scary that in this day and age, people equate homosexuality to pedophelia and beatiality! You have to wonder, what kind of messed up supressed childhood these people had. Change takes time...it's good to see it happening. Gay, Straight, whatever, we are all human beings and deserve to be treated with respect. In my mind being gay is as much a bid deal as being straight. Who cares? As long as you are happy and are good to others, what do I care who you want to have sex with?

Seriously, what is the big deal? Can someone tell me?

Homophobia does exist. Some guy named Chris that I've known for a couple of years has it. He won't sit near any guy, and squirms if you touch him.

The funniest thing is when guys who know how he is make kissy faces at him. Normally you'd ignore it or take it as some sort of sick joke, but this guy gets totally flustered in disgust and is really uncomfortable. So, yes, homophobia does exist.

Most homophobes have a fear of intimacy, too.

Oh, and this guy isn't violent. If you didn't know any better you may mistake him for being gay himself.

Sidez was responding to this:

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Originally posted by FuryFox
This thread doesn't seem to be addressing the millions of christians out there who consider it a mortal sin. Not exactly homophobes, per se...not sure what to call that. Dogmatic non-thinking?

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So I don't think he was addressing a small group so much as he was blanket-labeling an entire group. Or heck, just millions of people in that group.

But whatever; I wonder if such a thing as a christianphobe exists?

Andrew, that just seems to validate my theory on how I think alot of "homophobes" are people who are confused about their own sexuality and the only way they feel they can prove to themselves about what they are is lashing out against what they want to not be. I can't tell you how many times I've seen it when someone is extremely afraid of gay people, turns out to be gay themselves.

if you are going to kill gay people because homesexuality is a sin then you need to kill everyone. Everyone, at some point, sins.

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Originally posted by sleeveboy
Not sure what more I can say, other than yes, there are millions of people in America who fear, hate, and commit violence upon homosexuals.

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We don't call racists "blackophobes."

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Originally posted by James
http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/6175557.htm

An article on the Supreme Court's overturning of the sodomy laws in all 13 states that still have them on the books. Some great legal comedy in there, such as pointing out that Texas had oral/anal sex illegal for gays yet legal for straights, and Judge Scalia's line that this ruling "effectively decrees the end to all morals legislation." I'm trying to find the downside to courts being restricted to defining law based on something other than an arbitrary, opinionated moral code.

James

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Scalia always makes really pointed, witty, and sound arguments that stem from the most ridiculous premises. It's nice, because you can appreciate the man's reasoning (he really is a great writer) without agreeing with a damn thing he writes.

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Originally posted by Hero
Sidez was responding to this:



So I don't think he was addressing a small group so much as he was blanket-labeling an entire group. Or heck, just millions of people in that group.

But whatever; I wonder if such a thing as a christianphobe exists?

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Doesn't your Bible condemn homosexuality? I don't see the wiggle room here.

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Originally posted by burgundy
We don't call racists "blackophobes."

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Burgundy's right - I think assigning the word "homophobe" to people who hate gays does a disservice to gay people. Hate, not fear, is the important emotion in the relationship between, say, Matthew Shepherd and the two guys that killed him.

Calling them homophobes seems inappropriate when fear isn't really the pertinent emotion. I'd prefer "homomiseobes" or, I dunno, some word that de-emphasizes fear.

Who gives a fuck whether someone who lynches a black man was afraid of the black man or not? Who really cares whether a guy who uses racist slang to refer to blacks or jews actually fears those people? It's not important - what matters is that he hates them, and that's the emotion that should be informing the term we use to describe the racist.

Well thats why Mathew Shepard was a hate crime and not the, "I was "confused" and "scared" by the way my heart felt about the cute guy who was making advances on me," crime.


Any phobia can truly exist, this one especially. But the difference between a homophobe and a gaybasher is simple. One is afraid of gay people with nonviolent tendencies. The other hates gays because they feel threatened in their masculine ways around them.

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Originally posted by MechDeus
Seeing as how he was labelling a specific group of Christians, not likely.

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Bingo.

I`m really not into denouncing such a huge and diverse group of people. The Bible has some particularly ridiculous passages in Leviticus, I regard the homosexuality being an abomination line as one of them.

Burgundy, I know you aren't an idiot so I'm going to assume that "blackophobe" comment was written at 5AM before turning in, mind fuzzy from lack of sleep and maybe a beer or other substance getting in the way as well. Either that or I'm forced to believe that you think there's a total of two races in the world, black people and white people.

Racism, strictly defined as race-related, would cover American Indians, India Indians, Asians, Latinos, Jews, and on and on and on. In more general usage it also gets used against cultures as well. How on earth white people discriminated against, say, the Irish is beyond me.

I should mention here that making fun of the French is now and hopefully will always be funny. Discriminating against them, on the other hand, never will be.

James

This thread is utterly pointless.

Who cares what we call people who hate/disparage/fear/throw things at homosexuals? It's the same problem, and it needs to stop.

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Originally posted by James
Burgundy, I know you aren't an idiot so I'm going to assume that "blackophobe" comment was written at 5AM before turning in, mind fuzzy from lack of sleep and maybe a beer or other substance getting in the way as well. Either that or I'm forced to believe that you think there's a total of two races in the world, black people and white people.

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I was making an example. I'm aware of the full reach of racism. I didn't think it was necessary to list an imaginary phobia for every discernable race.

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Originally posted by sleeveboy
This thread is utterly pointless.

Who cares what we call people who hate/disparage/fear/throw things at homosexuals? It's the same problem, and it needs to stop.

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It's an academic debate, more or less. No one here has posted in support of "homophobia." IMO this thread is a lot more interesting than talking about how much we accept homosexuality.

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Originally posted by Stone
Burgundy's right - I think assigning the word "homophobe" to people who hate gays does a disservice to gay people. Hate, not fear, is the important emotion in the relationship between, say, Matthew Shepherd and the two guys that killed him.

Calling them homophobes seems inappropriate when fear isn't really the pertinent emotion. I'd prefer "homomiseobes" or, I dunno, some word that de-emphasizes fear.

Who gives a fuck whether someone who lynches a black man was afraid of the black man or not? Who really cares whether a guy who uses racist slang to refer to blacks or jews actually fears those people? It's not important - what matters is that he hates them, and that's the emotion that should be informing the term we use to describe the racist.

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If I was homosexual (and overly politically sensitive) I'd pretty offended by the use of "homophobia." Why are gays and lesbians thrown into a category with spiders, enclosed spaces and the number 13? It's almost dehumanizing.

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Originally posted by burgundy
Doesn't your Bible condemn homosexuality? I don't see the wiggle room here.

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My bible dosen't codemn any sin and is all about second chances and forgiveness. Your narrow understanding of the bible is crowding your wiggle room.

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Originally posted by youandwhosearmy


But the difference between a homophobe and a gaybasher is simple. One is afraid of gay people with nonviolent tendencies. The other hates gays because they feel threatened in their masculine ways around them.

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There is no difference. You see, homophobia isn't exactly a fear per se. It is defined as a severe hatred/ fear for homosexual people, and/or ACTIONS upon that hatred/fear. I don't think this term fits directly into the -phobia words, as it describes more than a fear. Unfortunately, homophobia takes lives. I was truly saddened over the death of Mathew Shepard, and to think that this happens all the time. People even KILL THEMSELVES because they aren't accepted, and their lifestyle is looked down upon. It is quite sad.

Huzzah to Stone for hitting it on the head.

I want to start a vigilante-style gang that goes around and thoroughly whoops the asses of anyone who is racist or a homophobe in public. That would be awesome. Hehe. Totally a violation of the Constitution, but still awesome.

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Originally posted by Calliander
I want to start a vigilante-style gang that goes around and thoroughly whoops the asses of anyone who is racist or a homophobe in public. That would be awesome. Hehe. Totally a violation of the Constitution, but still awesome.

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Yeah, the "if you can't beat them, join them" strategy works REALLY well when dealing with hate groups. :rolleyes:

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Originally posted by Jester
My bible dosen't codemn any sin and is all about second chances and forgiveness. Your narrow understanding of the bible is crowding your wiggle room.

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You can get a 'second chance' to stop killing, thieving, raping, whatever. You can't get a 'second chance' to not be gay.

I'd have to agree with LordPerrin, because in most cases people do not decide to be gay. It's just part of a person.

We all know this in the simple fact that if it was a choice, most men WOULD in fact be gay. Most men want sex, lots of sex. Men are also easy to get sex from in comparison to the average female. Logic would lead a person then to that being gay is the best option in getting what you want. BUT life isn't like this. Sexuality is just something built into a being. Like a person's favorite color, foods, places, cars, ect, ect.

(this of oarse is taking the average person into account. It is not talking about the cases where extremely bad social interaction with the opposite sex in one's life time makes people gay. So please, no counter arguments that involve your weird cousin albert who is gay because his sister raped him, ok?)

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Originally posted by IronPlant
We all know this in the simple fact that if it was a choice, most men WOULD in fact be gay. Most men want sex, lots of sex. Men are also easy to get sex from in comparison to the average female.

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Girls smell better, tend to be softer, and tend to not have a penis.

I'll stick with girls. :)

thanks for proving my point 88

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Originally posted by Jester
My bible dosen't codemn any sin and is all about second chances and forgiveness. Your narrow understanding of the bible is crowding your wiggle room.

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:wtf:
Back up a second there Charlie Brown. What Bible are you reading? I hope you meant "My Bible (even though it's OUR Bible;) ) doesn't condemn any sinner....." as God condemns ALL sin, but does not comdemn sinners unless they die in their sins.

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You can get a 'second chance' to stop killing, thieving, raping, whatever. You can't get a 'second chance' to not be gay.

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Common misconception among both gays and non-believers.

Jesus, loved, healed, taught, walked among and died for all kinds of sinners. Adulterers, murderers, prostitutes, tax collecters, child molestors, cowards(yes, cowardice is a sin), liars, thieves, etc. I have no doubt that gays and homosexuals numbered among those whom He loved and died for. There are gay Christians in this world, they simply choose not to fufill the useless desires of their flesh.

Think for a moment about how absurd that position is. In order to be a good Christian, a gay person has to deny the very nature God gave them (THE most psychologically dangerous thing any person can do, I might add)? It is to laugh.

But then again, what should I expect from a 'Christian' message board pornographer...

These things always fall back to religion I swear.

I won't argue with you Orta, I was making an in general statement. I will say that my definition of Homophobe is based on the fact that anything can be a pure phobia and you don't always hate the things you are afraid of.

I tend to classify gay bashers as just that, gay bashers. Not homophobes.

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Originally posted by LordPerrin
Think for a moment about how absurd that position is. In order to be a good Christian, a gay person has to deny the very nature God gave them (THE most psychologically dangerous thing any person can do, I might add)? It is to laugh.

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That would make homosexual behavior not of God, as He doesn't ask us to preform outside of our nature.

I am not getting involved here...just showing you the logical loop-holes. My opinions are not necessarily those expressed in this post.

What loophole? All you've done is present an argument against the validity of your interpretation of God.

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Originally posted by LordPerrin
What loophole? All you've done is present an argument against the validity of your interpretation of God.

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No, I haven't. What I've done is nullify the belief that Homosexuals are "born that way." If they were, then God wouldn't ask them to behave in a manner which contradicts their very nature, as God only asks of us what He knows we are naturally inclined to do.

Again, this isn't me getting involved. I'm just trying to show you the other side of the argument.

Reguardless of other questions you have, or statements you may make, I'm going to stop right here.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Homosexuals can be saved by Jesus Christ, just the same as anyone can.

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Originally posted by LordPerrin
Think for a moment about how absurd that position is. In order to be a good Christian, a gay person has to deny the very nature God gave them (THE most psychologically dangerous thing any person can do, I might add)? It is to laugh.

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To be a good Christian any non-married person has to deny the sexual nature that they were born with, heterosexual or otherwise. Fornicators, adulterers, and whoremongers aren't getting in either and they are doing what is "natural".

And while I agree that love and kindly affection are a neccessity to the spiritual, emotional and physical well-being of a human being, sex is not.
Human beings can live without sex so long as they have a source of kind, pure-hearted, loving affection. Children are a perfect example of this.

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But then again, what should I expect from a 'Christian' message board pornographer...

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:wtf: You lost me.

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Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
No, I haven't. What I've done is nullify the belief that Homosexuals are "born that way."

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WTF? Do you know any gay people to be saying that? I mean really, who on earth do you know that their sexual preference was a choice to them. I don't know anyone who likes having sex with both females and males but chose the opisite sex because it was the moral thing to do.

All the gay people ive known have had as much choice in what they find atractive in a mate as I had a choice in being born a white male.

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Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
No, I haven't. What I've done is nullify the belief that Homosexuals are "born that way." If they were, then God wouldn't ask them to behave in a manner which contradicts their very nature, as God only asks of us what He knows we are naturally inclined to do.

Again, this isn't me getting involved. I'm just trying to show you the other side of the argument.

Reguardless of other questions you have, or statements you may make, I'm going to stop right here.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Homosexuals can be saved by Jesus Christ, just the same as anyone can.

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I'd just like to say it's a good thing that your God doesn't really exist, at least not in the way the Christian bible says. Because Homosexuality is most definitely genetic.

Man I hate the way most religions can't seem to accept people for who they are, no they have to change them, make them "better". Anyway that's enough out of me and my distaste of religion.

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Originally posted by Master of 7s

Human beings can live without sex so long as they have a source of kind, pure-hearted, loving affection. Children are a perfect example of this.

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You can't really use children as a example of how adults should act. The pure children you talk about have not hit puberty yet. Also the human brain changes during the teenage years, so in a way a adult and child, mentally, are two different beings. You can't expect a sports car to do what a Van does, and you can't expect a adult to do what a child does.

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Originally posted by Abobo
Andrew, that just seems to validate my theory on how I think alot of "homophobes" are people who are confused about their own sexuality and the only way they feel they can prove to themselves about what they are is lashing out against what they want to not be. I can't tell you how many times I've seen it when someone is extremely afraid of gay people, turns out to be gay themselves.

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You're basically being as ignorant and unsensitive as an anti-homosexual individual. They have a problem and are afraid of homosexuals, it's an actual disease. It's not then being insecure, they're afraid, it's fear.

The same thing was said about gays early on: Their just trying to get attention, you can't actually be gay, etc.

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Originally posted by IronPlant
WTF? Do you know any gay people to be saying that? I mean really, who on earth do you know that their sexual preference was a choice to them. I don't know anyone who likes having sex with both females and males but chose the opisite sex because it was the moral thing to do.

All the gay people ive known have had as much choice in what they find atractive in a mate as I had a choice in being born a white male.

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Yes, I know several homosexual individuals. I also shared the fact that the views expressed in my previous posts are not necessarily my own. I believe whole-heartedly that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice.

This responce, coupled with bbobb's is the precise reason I dislike talking about this subject. To damn many of you are ready to jump the gun and go breathing down my neck, fuming, because I expressed a view contrary to your own, and on the whole viewed as "callous," without actually taking the time to understand me fully, and to view my position in that I was simply providing an explanation for LordPerrin from a different point of view that WAS NOT MY OWN!

I said it here:

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My opinions are not necessarily those expressed in this post.

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And here:

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Again, this isn't me getting involved. I'm just trying to show you the other side of the argument.

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I've said it before, and I'll say it again: Homosexuals can be saved by Jesus Christ, just the same as anyone can.

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Calm down, assholes, and read what I wrote again...and again if you need to. Seems to me you went looking for a fight and conviently blinded yourselves to the bits that would lead you out of one.

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Originally posted by bbobb
I'd just like to say it's a good thing that your God doesn't really exist, at least not in the way the Christian bible says.

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Because you say so, or because it is beyond the shadow of any doubt provable by scientifc method?

Right-O.

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Because Homosexuality is most definitely genetic.

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I agree, jerk-off. You might have picked up on that had you not been looking for a means to bash Christianity.

Way to bash the Christian, by the way. I'm willing to bet that your particular views concerning me and my faith are totally and purely adopted, and not the result of any long time spent pondering whether or not it is, actually, the truth. You've no desire for the truth, nor do you seek it. You took a look at Jesus Christ, decided you didn't want to believe in Him, and then adopted the best, most logically sound, scientifically infallable idea to come down the pike as justification for panning the Christian belief system. Way to think for yourself, jack-ass.

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Originally posted by Hero
I don't believe in, condone, or practice anything homosexual.

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This is the kind of rhetoric that I find hilarious. You don't believe in it? Homosexuality isn't a religion or the Easter Bunny.

You don't condone it? Who said you were in a position to approve or disapprove anyway?

You don't "practice anything homosexual." That's the best one. It's not witchcraft Hero.

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I don't frown down on it either.

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It sounds like you do "frown down on it" actually. I'm surprised you didn't go for the "some of my best friends are gay" line like the Captain up there.

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Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
Yes, I know several homosexual individuals. I also shared the fact that the views expressed in my previous posts are not necessarily my own. I believe whole-heartedly that sexual orientation is not a matter of choice.

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ok, maybe I jumped the gun, but why post a counter argument that is not your own, that is so faulty?

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Originally posted by IronPlant
You can't really use children as a example of how adults should act. The pure children you talk about have not hit puberty yet. Also the human brain changes during the teenage years, so in a way a adult and child, mentally, are two different beings. You can't expect a sports car to do what a Van does, and you can't expect a adult to do what a child does.

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Then please, by all means, provide us with the proof that sex is required for a healthy adult human life-style.

Physialogically, human children and human adults are the same damned thing.

EDIT: I posted this before I knew you had recinded your attack. The language is harsh, and for that I apologise. However, I'd still like to see proof that sex is required for a healthy, adult human life-style.

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Originally posted by LordPerrin
Think for a moment about how absurd that position is. In order to be a good Christian, a gay person has to deny the very nature God gave them (THE most psychologically dangerous thing any person can do, I might add)? It is to laugh.

But then again, what should I expect from a 'Christian' message board pornographer...

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A., 7's is a pornographer?, thats a little harsh check the rate the chick thread, not only has he not contributed(meany) but i dont recall him ever posting a pornographic pic,he has a few scantily clad fighting game girls, but blame the designersthere.
B. yeah, a person can and often should deny the nature that they were born with, people are born with basic, need fulfilling urges that basically make sure we eat, have shelter, are safe from violence, and pass on our genes, but those desires have to be modified by the values and morals we learn, as they lead to undesirable social outcomes, and are inherently selfish. The "You" emerges from the resolution of the conflict between your basic need fulfilling mechanisms,and the social activities and morals you learn. For instance, in my case,i have a strong drive to protect myself from harm,that manifests in a hair trigger temper that reacts when i feel threatened. unmodified that turns me into a thug, bully,or at worst,a murderer. now modifying that with the social indoctrinations i gained(from my religion) about not attacking others, i still have the drive to protect me when it is absolutely needed, but until then,it is held in check. my natural inclination is to violence, but through self mastery through social indoctrination i can control it positively.

To go a step further, extramarital sex is condemmed as severly as homosexual sex. Allow me to go out on a limb and say that All straight guys want it..often. giving into that desire puts you in the same boat as a person with a uncontrolled homosexual drive. unless you can control it and either forgoe entirely as part of a discipline(some clergy and religious ascetics both christian and non) or you can commit to a single monogamous relationship. that option does not exist for homosexuals in the christian faith(nor in many others), but they can serve quite productively as a member of the church(including as clergy). so yeah lord p, we surpress several desires to be productive memebers of society, you never noticed before?

Note: though that first paragraph looks like freud,i dont beleive in him at all, skinner 4 life.

p.s.s. oh,and it is absolutely genetic

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Originally posted by IronPlant
ok, maybe I jumped the gun, but why post a counter argument that is not your own, that is so faulty?

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Because LordPerrin's argument was faulty, and logically lead to the conclusion I provided.

He was arguing that sexual orientation is a product of predisposition.
He then said that God commands that the homosexuals not be homosexual, thus forcing them against their natural inclinations.

I argued that God never forces anyone against their natural inclinations.
Therefore, if God is forcing someone to not be homosexual, He is NOT forcing them against their natural predisposition, "proving" homosexuality to be a product of "unnatural choice," and thereby nullifying his argument.

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Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
This responce, coupled with bbobb's is the precise reason I dislike talking about this subject. To damn many of you are ready to jump the gun and go breathing down my neck, fuming, because I expressed a view contrary to your own, and on the whole viewed as "callous," without actually taking the time to understand me fully, and to view my position in that I was simply providing an explanation for LordPerrin from a different point of view that WAS NOT MY OWN!

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Sorry my man. You know I like ya. :) It's just I get a bit vehemous about religion... which is the reason I try to stay out of the religion threads.

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Originally posted by bbobb
Sorry my man. You know I like ya. :) It's just I get a bit vehemous about religion... which is the reason I try to stay out of the religion threads.

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I know, man. And I like you, too.

Instead of avoiding it, why not address your hate for relegion? You may get some answers, and at the very least become a bit more understanding toward our points of view. ;)

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Originally posted by Captain Vegetable
Then please, by all means, provide us with the proof that sex is required for a healthy adult human life-style.

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I never claimed that. Please post the exact sentence that made you think I said that so I may never word a sentecence that way again.

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Originally posted by Captain Vegetable

Physialogically, human children and human adults are the same damned thing.

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Im not talking about a purely mental concept, the concept of sex as it pertains to human daily life goes beyond the mental and into the physical, both the body and mind play parts in it. Sexual preference goes beyond the physialogically. Being gay is only a physialogical issue in the few that have extrememly wierd and bad experences in life thus pushing them towards that choice. But the majority are born into it just like any strait person is born the way they are.

And the brain does regear itself in the teenage years. The brain of a child and the brain of a adult are not the same. I'm sorry but that is just the way it is. A good example is why teenagers make so many bad mistakes in regards to what they choose to do. The brain regears itself mainfly from the back region to the frontal region. One of the parts that regears first is the emotional center of the brain. And one of the last is the part that does logic and interpritation of complex ideas. So for a long time the brain has the emotions of a adult and the logic of a child. Typically they get overwhelmed by these feelings and act on them more so than a adult would. Human beings seem and are very similiar in their mental workings, but depending on the age of that person, the ability and the ratio of those parts of the brain to one another, changes.

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Originally posted by IronPlant
I never claimed that. Please post the exact sentence that made you think I said that so I may never word a sentecence that way again.

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Well then, what was the point of your refutation of 7's claim that sex can be forgone so long as a loving, intimate relationship is had?

He wasn't likening an adult to a child physically, but emotionally. I child functions without sex, and is well adjusted so long as he/she recieves love from other human beings. Comforting, unconditional love. An adult can function the same way. I'll agree that the comparison is more complex than that, but the original purpose is served. Adults can forgo sex. That was his point, however flawed you think his illustration.

Its not the same thing. One thing has no desire for sex, at all, one does, a lot.

And yet again, I never said people need sex to live. My point was that saying adult can do something just because a kid does it is a bad and wrong argument when it comes to sexuality.

And id like to ask you a question. Is it ok for two men to be gay, if they do not acutally have sex? Because you do see a few that live in couples that love each other in similar fashion that a husband and wife do. Would that be moral so long as they don't have intercorse?

Can I ask a tangent question here? I'm going to anyway so you might as well deal with it. :)

Why is it bad for men to be gay but nobody seems to mind it in women? Why, when talking about gays and gayness and all that is it primarily a male thing?

If it's bad for men to have sex together then it's bad for women to have sex together in equal measure. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

James

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Originally posted by IronPlant
And id like to ask you a question. Is it ok for two men to be gay, if they do not acutally have sex? Because you do see a few that live in couples that love each other in similar fashion that a husband and wife do. Would that be moral so long as they don't have intercorse?

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Yes. So long as any type foronication isn't an issue, it's fine. God never says "thou shalt not be gay." What He does say is that pre-marrital and extra-marrital (which doesn't apply in this case) sexual relations are sinful, and one should not indulge in them.

Though I would question a homosexual individual's motives for moving in with someone of the same sex. If they wanted to avoid fonication altogether, then I'd advise against it, as the temptation is much to great.

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Originally posted by James
Can I ask a tangent question here? I'm going to anyway so you might as well deal with it. :)

Why is it bad for men to be gay but nobody seems to mind it in women? Why, when talking about gays and gayness and all that is it primarily a male thing?

If it's bad for men to have sex together then it's bad for women to have sex together in equal measure. Just thought it was worth mentioning.

James

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Absolutley. Which is why I continue to phrase my words in such a way as to be sexually indescriminant.

Well for myself, if I tend to talk more about gay men (I don't know if seem to come off as talking about men, but I may) more than gay women, Id have to guess that its because I know more gay men than gay women and thus they just come to mind quicker.

As for why society is more accepting of gay women, id have to guess its probably something really childish in relation to the BUTT issue of it. People are typically taut that butts are nasty things. Men are more likely to have sex with butts than women. People think of gay men, they think of the butt and what they are doing with it, and ect ect.

Another reason is simple math. One women good, two better, ect. And if you disaprove of lesbians, you never get a chance to see that now do you (as unlikely as it is that anyone is just going to let you watch)?

People who hate gay men, and aprove of gay women are not baising their reasons for doing so on moral reasons, and most likely on stupid simple arguments that don't go much farther than primitive desires as I described above.

Fear and hate can both fuel each other. The movie, American Beauty is a fine example of this. Kevin Spacey's neighbor in the movie hated and dispised gay people. When he confronted Spacey's character in the movie, he was filled with hate, because of his gay yearnings. He showed those in the end of the movie and then reacted to what he felt was wrong in morals and killed his Spacey's character.


Phsycology points out, that hate is often fueled by fear.