Why are old school RPGs held in such high esteem?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

Summons were in Final Fantasy 2. Remember Chocobo in the sand cave? They play the same. Gameplay is how you play the game (psst, through a menu system. Everything else is largely out of your hands) Even in this regard, Final Fantasy 3 had the mimic system, the tool system, the painting system, the animal system (for Gau) and the combo system (for Sabin), Morphing for Terra, the original slot system for Setzer.

---

Those are both mid titles (IV and VI), and outside of Sabin's SF-style moves and Slots those are all primarily different names for the same thing (and painting was FFIV). Now who's being fooled by a graphical change?

How can you say that everything else is out of your hands? The combos in FFVII, the amount of damage and all of its effects in FFVIII, and the entire flow of battle in FFIX (you even control when the enemies attack) are all setup and planned by the player. No, it doesn't have a action game style of attack, but if you think that just because a menu is used a game therefore is exactly the same as others with a menu then perhaps you need to actually figure out how the game plays.

Quote:

---

If you're looking for the variety, then this older title has that up the kazoo as well.

---

And it plays differently then the other titles. Is there a reason you stopped trying to back up your point and started trying to help me prove mine?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

Gameplay is how you play the game (psst, through a menu system. Everything else is largely out of your hands).

---

Oh yeah. I forgot Final Fantasy plays just like MS Excel.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

Gameplay is how you play the game (psst, through a menu system. Everything else is largely out of your hands)

---

*claps* Yes, that's how RPGs play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

Enough of that though, because my point was that RPGs revolve around their storylines and character development. I simply believe something like FF2 or 3 did a better job than 9 or 10. That's how they add up with things today.

---

That's cool, but the statement still boggles my mind, and an explanation as to how one can think that FF2 (old RPGs) has a better plot and more-developed characters than FF10 (modern RPGs) would still be much appreciated.

Even if you don't like modern RPGs you should be able to admit that:
1. The plots are generally better and more thought out.
2. The characters are generally more-developed and more interesting.

Wow. I can't believe there are people in here arguing that 16 bit and earlier RPGs actually had better stories.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ShineAqua

PC RPGs are rarely anything other than a dressed up FPS' or D&D/Gauntlet dungeon crawlers. Don't get me wrong, they're fun, but there aren't many RPGs out there on PC at don't fall into the afore mentioned catagories.

---

If your entire exposure to PC RPGs is Diablo, then yeah.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tracer

I can't think of a single story in a videogame that surpasses great works of Literature or even churned out Fantasy or Sci-Fi Novels.

---

Torment's no LotR, of course, but it kills 90% of fantasy and sci-fi. The story is amazingly well written.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Gutsman

So why is it that I found "old" RPGs like Dragon Warrior or PS2 a lot more enjoyable than these super modern, epic, RPGs with incredible graphics like Skies of Arcadia or Grandia 2?....

---

I think it's cause the gays got you with their giant laser beam.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MechDeus

Those are both mid titles (IV and VI), and outside of Sabin's SF-style moves and Slots those are all primarily different names for the same thing (and painting was FFIV). Now who's being fooled by a graphical change?

---

They directly effect the battle. Sabins combo system is similar to a fighting style. The slots are controlled by button presses and timing. Yet they're the same?

As for them being 'mid'. I'm not japanese, just so you know. The fact is that the way you attack, the way the rounds are situated by the same clock. The 'combo' system and 'timing' may be variants, but they are still controlled the same way as you control the older Final Fantasy games: through a menu.

Quote:

---

How can you say that everything else is out of your hands? The combos in FFVII, the amount of damage and all of its effects in FFVIII, and the entire flow of battle in FFIX (you even control when the enemies attack) are all setup and planned by the player. No, it doesn't have a action game style of attack, but if you think that just because a menu is used a game therefore is exactly the same as others with a menu then perhaps you need to actually figure out how the game plays.And it plays differently then the other titles. Is there a reason you stopped trying to back up your point and started trying to help me prove mine?

---

They're pre planned by the CPU. Final Fantasy's gameplay all revolves around a central clock which controls the game. Even when it's 'turn based' it's still the same as realtime where the enemies attack you back. The gameplay you control through the menus are the same.

Hmm. My point was that RPGs revolve around their stories largely. Or did you forget that through the psychobabble above you wrote? If you think that adding a combo system based on the same menu guidance and timing is different, then you have no idea how a game works, internally.

(psst, the computer always knows what you're going to do. Even the badguys!!!! WOW!!!)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmniGear

Even if you don't like modern RPGs you should be able to admit that:
1. The plots are generally better and more thought out.
2. The characters are generally more-developed and more interesting.

---

No, I don't.

The plots in the latest Final Fantasies all seem to revolve around a huge power which is terrorizing the world somehow. Impending doom is afoot (Kuja, Sephiroth, and Sin, etc) and a mellowdramatic hero saves the day (Cloud, Squall). Actually, Zidane was unique. Aside from that, you have a feigned and vague love interest (Yuna, Dagger, Aeris), the perky cool guy to help them on their way (wakka, ) the odd man (Amarant, that blue guy in FFX). It just seems to be pieced together.

I will admit, some of the scenes in the newer Final Fantasies (which I am arguing about because they have been the ones to have been stretched through new and old, consistently) are done well. Like when Sin totally desecrates the cities and then the fortification they have set up. But then again, Kuja does that in FF9 too.

In FF3, I thought Locke being a good thief conflicted to help Terra. Terra not knowing her powers, internally and the whole fact that they explored the world of the espers and actually made us care about their journey was excellent. The fact that Kefka achieved the destruction of the world as we knew it. The fact that Realm and her gramps were bonded together through tragedy (that octopus). The way the scenarios at the beginning made you get to know your characters and force them to have better bonds between them.

Oh yeah, FF2 had some pretty brutal dialogue. But the scene with Palom and Poram turning to stone and the scene with Edward playing his harp to them at nighttime (I think it was before he died) was excellent.

Kefka was trying to abuse his power in FF3, but he didn't have a lot of it. And when you learned his plan to stab the Emporer in the back (no pun intended), it was too late. I also loved the way you got shadow on your team by saving his life and waiting for him.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

They directly effect the battle. Sabins combo system is similar to a fighting style. The slots are controlled by button presses and timing. Yet they're the same?

---

What? Who said they're the same? Reread what I wrote and pay attention to the words this time.

Quote:

---

As for them being 'mid'. I'm not japanese, just so you know.

---

Neither am I. How does that change the order of the games?

Quote:

---

The fact is that the way you attack, the way the rounds are situated by the same clock. The 'combo' system and 'timing' may be variants, but they are still controlled the same way as you control the older Final Fantasy games: through a menu.

---

So even though they play differently they're the same because it uses menus? Seriously, what?

Quote:

---

They're pre planned by the CPU. Final Fantasy's gameplay all revolves around a central clock which controls the game.

---

What? Pre-planned by the CPU and "central clock?" What are you going on about?

Quote:

---

Even when it's 'turn based' it's still the same as realtime where the enemies attack you back. The gameplay you control through the menus are the same.

---

That first sentence makes no sense, and the second one hardly affects anything. Like I said before, both Shinobi and Gungrave have an attack button and a jump button but they don't play anything alike. Just because an executable is shared means nothing.

Quote:

---

Hmm. My point was that RPGs revolve around their stories largely. Or did you forget that through the psychobabble above you wrote?

---

RPGs do revolve largely around their story, but that doesn't take away that the gameplay has changed immensely. And there was no psychobabble written above, you really should make sure you know what a word means before you use it. This isn't exactly the first time you've done that on this board.

Quote:

---

If you think that adding a combo system based on the same menu guidance and timing is different, then you have no idea how a game works, internally.

---

If you think that a single graphical interface is the only thing that affects gameplay, then you clearly have no clue what gameplay even is, let alone how games work. You should really get off your hangup on how attacks are selected and actually learn the games. Oh, and the timing changes almost every game.

Quote:

---

(psst, the computer always knows what you're going to do. Even the badguys!!!! WOW!!!)

---

Um, why is this comment here and was there any point to it?

Quote:

---

The plots in the latest Final Fantasies all seem to revolve around a huge power which is terrorizing the world somehow. Impending doom is afoot (Kuja, Sephiroth, and Sin, etc) and a mellowdramatic hero saves the day (Cloud, Squall). Actually, Zidane was unique. Aside from that, you have a feigned and vague love interest (Yuna, Dagger, Aeris), the perky cool guy to help them on their way (wakka, ) the odd man (Amarant, that blue guy in FFX). It just seems to be pieced together.

---

You're right, that's so inferior to the older RPGs, whose stories in the entirety consisted of:
"We need a hero(es), save us! The bad guy is ****!"
*possible single, quick plot twist*
"Thank you!"
With character development on even a basic level being nonexistant. You're comparing teen romance novels to short stories from Highlights For Children. The former may not exactly be great literature but it's far superior to the latter.

Besides, FFVI was the same way so why are you using that as a reference against?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

The 'combo' system and 'timing' may be variants, but they are still controlled the same way as you control the older Final Fantasy games: through a menu.

---

*smacks forehead*

Is Final Fantasy the only RPG you've played? That's the only way to explain this line of thinking. I've already pointed this out to you before, I guess you ignored it, but that's how ALL RPGs are played: through a menu.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

They're pre planned by the CPU. Final Fantasy's gameplay all revolves around a central clock which controls the game. Even when it's 'turn based' it's still the same as realtime where the enemies attack you back. The gameplay you control through the menus are the same.

---

That doesn't really matter. All I can say is play every single FF and tell me that all the systems are exactly the same. Because we all know Materia and Junctioning are the same, and hell, we might as well throw Espers in there too. Forget about the Job System in FF5. Nobody cares about that. Sphere Grid? Well that's almost like leveling up, certainly not different enough to be different. Let's just call it the same!

And jee, I almost forgot that you can directly control summoned monsters in FF8. But FF7 had summoned monsters too, so no matter what they change about those summoned monsters in later installments, it's still the same! Shit, Square did all that work making things different, but it's still the same. That's sad. Somebody should tell them.

Like Mech said, are Ninja Gaiden and Shinobi the same because you press "A" to attack in both of them? :rolleyes:

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

Hmm. My point was that RPGs revolve around their stories largely. Or did you forget that through the psychobabble above you wrote? If you think that adding a combo system based on the same menu guidance and timing is different, then you have no idea how a game works, internally.

---

If you think that having a menu and some semblance of the same "timing" make two games the same, then you have no idea how a game works, internally.

As for the whole story and character thing, if you like paper-thin, undeveloped characters and childish plots, that's totally your perrogative. But I still think you're crazy.

[edit] Always a step behind.

I'd like to weigh in on this subject and just asay that whatever strategy the changes inbattle system affords, exploiting it is wholly unneccessary 90%of the time. FF4 plays exactly like FF1. The timers do virtually nothing. It doesn't take that long to decide whether it's time to attack or heal. They are not strategic systems, and they don't demand much of your mind to get through.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by OmniGear

If you think that having a menu and some semblance of the same "timing" make two games the same, then you have no idea how a game works, internally.

As for the whole story and character thing, if you like paper-thin, undeveloped characters and childish plots, that's totally your perrogative. But I still think you're crazy.

[edit] Always a step behind.

---

Ninja Gaiden and Shinobi are separated by engine. Something like a FInal Fantasy and Breath of Fire are controlled through menus. I do know something about games, I'm making a few. Gameplay is how you control the game, and the battles in a Final Fantasy 1 - 10 are done through menus.

Breath of FIre and any other game that these menus and uses a turn based within a predetermined (meaning you go in to it) is primarily the same.

How are they paper thin and undeveloped? Because they aren't mellowdramatic? I don't think so. I gave specific examples in my post. I suppose you don't have to, though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MechDeus

What? Who said they're the same? Reread what I wrote and pay attention to the words this time.Neither am I. How does that change the order of the games?So even though they play differently they're the same because it uses menus? Seriously, what?What? Pre-planned by the CPU and "central clock?" What are you going on about?That first sentence makes no sense, and the second one hardly affects anything. Like I said before, both Shinobi and Gungrave have an attack button and a jump button but they don't play anything alike. Just because an executable is shared means nothing.RPGs do revolve largely around their story, but that doesn't take away that the gameplay has changed immensely. And there was no psychobabble written above, you really should make sure you know what a word means before you use it. This isn't exactly the first time you've done that on this board.If you think that a single graphical interface is the only thing that affects gameplay, then you clearly have no clue what gameplay even is, let alone how games work. You should really get off your hangup on how attacks are selected and actually learn the games. Oh, and the timing changes almost every game.Um, why is this comment here and was there any point to it?You're right, that's so inferior to the older RPGs, whose stories in the entirety consisted of:
"We need a hero(es), save us! The bad guy is ****!"
*possible single, quick plot twist*
"Thank you!"
With character development on even a basic level being nonexistant. You're comparing teen romance novels to short stories from Highlights For Children. The former may not exactly be great literature but it's far superior to the latter.

Besides, FFVI was the same way so why are you using that as a reference against?

---

I've quoted you here just to show you ramble on.

You accuse me of not knowing how the games work. Yet they all revolve around menus and the same generic system. The 'central clock' and 'CPU' you don't seem to be able to comprehend comprise the system you're arguing so readily for. (even though it wasn't my point). This is how you play Final Fantasy.

You really need to learn a thing or two about videogames and their components before you yap on about a subject you have no idea about.

As for the stories. Was Terra the 'main' character in FF3? Because a lot of the story didn't even revolve around her (until the world of Ruin). The characters were developed with each other and had greater ties and were developed stronger through the use of close nit situations where they were mixed up (scenarios, the way you'd often have to have multiple teams, etc.)

If you don't feel the same, then that's fine. But it doesn't mean anything. The question here was why are they held in such esteem. And that's why I hold this RPG of old like so.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

Aside from that, you have a feigned and vague love interest (Yuna, Dagger, Aeris).

---

:wtf: ? I think you should stick to words you know.