Quote:
Originally Posted by MechDeus
Making movies does not mean you understand them, creating art does not mean you understand it, programming games does not mean you understand them. No, I'm sorry, it doesn't.
Yes, it does. Atleast, from a technical standpoint, which is what gameplay is. Why can't you understand this? Why is it so hard to grasp the concept?
Quote:
Alright, none of that makes any sense. Both Shinobi and Ninja Gaiden are action games that utilize many of the same concepts and execution, so how would comparing those show a change between turn-based and real-time? Just because a game uses menus doesn't mean the engine doesn't vary, provided you understand what game engines actually are.
Actually, that was my point. I even stated that you don't have a engine difference in the battle of Final Fantasy. Citing examples from the game where you select a course of action (attack, defend, item, magic, summon, misc) and then your character waltzes out and performs it.
That's the gameplay. The engine is very basic. Something like a Shinobi and Ninja Gaiden have physics engines, linking animations and real time enemy AI. But then again, I already said that. Care to try and make any point?
Quote:
This is, of course, ignoring everything you directly affect while concentrating solely on the executable. Like I said before, quit getting hung on how it's performed and start realizing what's actually getting performed. That's gameplay.
OH MY GOD! It's like talking to a fucking hippo! No, that's NOT gameplay. The way Cloud runs out and performs a cross hatch attack is not gameplay, its design. Gameplay is how you TECHNICALLY get a move to perform. Whether is be through a combination of buttons, a menu or whatever the means be in the game.
God, this is hopeless. You've just proved you don't know what gameplay actually is. You don't know how to differenciate between design and gameplay. Thank you for proving me right.
Quote:
Unfortunately for you, you still don't understand any of the changes in the systems from game to game and therefore have shown you don't understand how it works.
Wrong again. I even gave the differences in gameplay between Xenogears and Final Fantasy when Omnigear asked. This is about New vs. Old Final Fantasies and how the gameplay hasn't changed. Care to try and say something that will blow my socks off by magically changing this.
The only thing you CAN do, is get completely belligerent. All you can do is say how I don't understand this and that. But I've made a significant statement here with examples of how the gameplay is the same.
You've proven you don't know what gameplay is by this statement:
Quote:
This is, of course, ignoring everything you directly affect while concentrating solely on the executable. Like I said before, quit getting hung on how it's performed and start realizing what's actually getting performed. That's gameplay.
Quote:
*smacks forehead* That went completely over your head, as usual. Try thinking about what was being discussed and what I said, and then put the two together. You can rag on my education all you like but the more you show your inability to comprehend the language you're reading the less water such statements hold.
Basically, you shouldn't be talking about things you don't know about. You don't know the fundamentals of a simple program like a calculator, yet argue complex video game engines with someone with experience. Wow, that sure meant NOTHING now.
Quote:
I have no concept of the difference between gameplay and game design, and yet you're arguing that because a game has menus it therefore does not change. :wtf: Word of the day: Narrow-minded.
Newflash: The menus are how you play Final Fantasy. The interface is the design. The way you use the menus to play the game. That is what I'm saying. I never said that because a game has a menu, it's the same.
Ironically, you don't understand.
Quote:
Um, you do understand how many different videogame series that all run off the same engine there are, right? You do understand that a game's engine has comparitively marginal effect on it's execution, right?
Hmm. Considering the engine changes the reaction in games like Ninja Gaiden and Shinobi (which have different engines, btw), this makes them fundamentally different.
Something like a FF 3 and FF 7 don't have an engine like this.
Your drivel about engine licensing makes no sense to the point of Final Fantasy.
Quote:
First off, go look up what the word design means, and then come back and try to argue that you know what game design is before you use it wrong again. Second, gameplay is more then immediate execution but you chalk much of that up to game design (which it isn't).
Yes, it is. That's what you don't understand. Gameplay is technical, design is cosmetic. The way your punch looks and how long it take is determined by the designer. Newflash! It's part of the games design.
All the world experience and practical knowhow wouldn't make you change your mind. So you're being pretty ignorant here.
Quote:
What are you talking about? By your logic, both of them use menus and are therefore the same. Xenogears merely stretches out how you choose attacks.
Showing your ability to not comprehend what I said, once again.
Quote:
Um, that works the same way in Xenogears. Problem is, you don't understand how it's executed, you only grasp the immediate visual feedback. In FFIX different attacks have different amounts of execution time, and more powerful attacks knock back enemy placement in the overall time listing. Magic spells require more time then a regular attack because those are often more powerful but that also increases the chances said character will get hit by an enemy attack and have the attack take longer to be used. If setup incorrectly your entire party can be wiped out easy as pie because your party's timing will be off and the enemy can constantly keep your team off-balance. Proper usage of attacks with certain timing is essential to survival. Most encountered this earlier with an on-screen visual indicator in Grandia.
Funny how FF2 and 3 had casting time as well. The fact is, though, that they run on the same timer and menu system. How you execute the command to cast is how you play the game. That's gameplay.
Comprehend, Understand and Learn Mech Deus. You do not know what game play is.
Quote:
Next, I've pointed out gameplay differences but you just ignore them and shove them all together under the pretence of them being the same because a similar executable is used. Are you telling me that Front Mission 3 plays the same as FFVII because they both use a similar looking menu-based system?
No, all you've done is point out how a game is designed. You're not looking past it. You think because you do a crosshatch instead of a common strike, that's a difference in gameplay. It isn't. Gameplay is how you, the player, plays the game.
In a battle scenario, this doesn't change and that's why you're making an idiot out of yourself.
Gee, I wonder why Opa decided to join in with this comment after getting shot down earlier?
Quote:
And I did address his points. Multiple times.
Not really. You just said the same thing you said 2 posts ago, and it's still wrong.
As for my vocabulary. I gave examples of the definitive terms with examples from games. (Melodrama in FF7, with cloud consistently being depressed, everything being overly gloomy, ALL the time).
As you so Eloquently say once and awhile: try again.
-------------------------------------------
Okay. I'm going to make this dead easy for you to comprehend and learn:
How do you perform an action in a Final Fantasy in the following circumstance:
You're in a battle with one imp. Beat him.
Simple? Now, what would you be required to do in order to beat the little bugger?
Please indulge me here. Once you do, you will hopefully understand what gameplay is. (Hint: psst, it isn't what IGN tells you it is)
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kidnemo
Here is a comparison:
Quake vs. Unreal.
They both are played via a FPS perspective.
They both can use the mouse/keyboard in the same fashion to interface with the game.
Does this mean the gameplay is exactly the same? Of course not. Both games are from the same genre, and while the control schemes are similar, the actual gameplay is different.
The same with our running rpg debate.
Let's compare Final Fantasy X to Dragon Warrior.
Both games use a "menu-based" system to control combat. Which makes sense because they come from the same genre (we'll call it Japanese Console RPGS for today).
Does that mean the gameplay is exactly the same? Of course not! If you're familar with the battle system in Dragon Warrior, and you see a screenshot of FFX you might think "wow, this has similar gameplay", but it's not like you could jump into FFX half-way through the game at a boss battle without any previous instruction a expect to be dealing out death.
Genres share gameplay traits. That's no mystery, but the way a game utilizes a particular genres feature (the battle system in JRPGs, the FPS perspective in FPS, etc) will vary widely from game-to-game.
I agree with you to some extent. But we're not arguing Final Fantasy to Dragon Warrior. We're arguing Final Fantasy X, to Final Fantasy 9.
The way FPS's take place, gameplay wise, is the same. This is what I'm trying to explain. The only thing that changes, typically, is the design of the game. How the bullets come out. Maybe there's a gun that allows you to shoot through walls, or have a gun that can shoot around walls. They're all played out by pressing a number on the keyboard with a corresponding gun, and then clicking the mouse.
The engine changes between most FPSs which is why they appear to be different. But the gameplay is still the same.
Controls are integral to gameplay. But you can still change the controls and it's still the same gameplay.
Quote:
Originally Posted by PaCrappa
I've got it! Old School RPGs are held in such high esteem because they hail from a time when people played games more than they whined about them on the internet.
And Andrew, you're going to have a hard time convincing me that you know anything about anything if you haven't learned to spell "than" by now. Your "reasoning" is incomprehensible(at best) and you should thank MechDeus for actually taking you seriously.
Pa
Okay. So I guess you don't know what gameplay is then either.
I agree, I'm not good at articulating what I mean. But I'm trying to explain the components of a videogame.
MechDeus doesn't understand the difference between design, and gameplay.
