First night with the Xbox = what's up with the Cube?

Just to chime in on the discussion between Brotherman and Galvatron.

I had a discussion with Ethugg about VF4 vs DOA3 on a graphics level. I personally think VF4 looks better than DOA3. OF course, I realise, that my basis for believing that VF4 looks better is on the basis that I think there is much better artistic value to VF4, with poly models, texturing, and general artistic direction. In my head I *know* DOA3 is better visually, with its levels, and (I assume) higher poly models, but the fact that I feel all that is wasted on poor atristic direction makes me feel that it looks worse than VF4. On the same hand, thats my opinion on VF4 arcade, not VF4 PS2. Once it hit the PS2, and added jaggies to its already chock full 'o jagginess, I felt it had downgraded on the performance level enough to make me feel the artistic value didnt make up for it(enough) anymore. I believe this is a pretty good example of presentation vs graphical performance, and the point Brotherman is trying to make. Just though I would share.

Oh, and Rallisport makes me change my pants.... often.

Z-roe

"the Gamecube's 6-12 million polygons feature eight texture passes, realistic AI, sound, game physics, and realistic lighting. What can a Radeon do again? Oh that's right: it draws and textures polygons. "

The Radeon can do 8x alpha blending and T&L and much more. Sound is handled by a seperate SPU on the Gamecube and is of minimal impact to the GPU. AI is calculated on the IBM Gekko processor. The Gamecube should have the advantage here, NOT the Graphics card. Even if you got a system setup with trying to get the closest CPU speed to the gamecube and paired it with a Radeon, the PC would still win.

"The PS2 hasn't come close to 11 million polygons. "

Neither has the Gamecube, Super smash brothers sure has alot of polys! :jest: . Mario Sunshine looks like the N64 Mario. But i'm sure Playstation 2 is much closer to it than Gamecube is right now. I'm sure PS2 has at least made it to 5 or 6 million polygons, and if you can't trust specs given out by the company themselves then why believe that Gamecube will push 12 million sustained? And please, as for Resident Evil, rendering less than 4 characters on screen at a time with accelerated lighting is not impressive. The light doesnt even have to process against the background, it only touches the models. At least Devil May Cry was fully 3D. Your only decieving yourself if you think RE is gonna be pushing 6+ Million polys.

"I'm glad to know that I can tell my pals at OIT to skip the next three years of classes."

Your sarcasm is almost as bad as your website :rolleyes: .

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Originally posted by Phire
A Gamecube can only push 6-12 textured polygons per sec.

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I believe Factor 5 claims Rogue Leader pushed 16 million polys a second. If johnpv shows up again, he can clarify this.

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"Some of the possible features of the NV-25 (over the NV-20/GeForce3) are the inclusion of 6 pixel pipelines (up from four) and a second vertex processing unit. The GPU in the Xbox currently has two such units, while the NV-20 does not. "

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That's all well and good, but the Xbox DOES NOT have a Ti4600. Not even close.

Let's do a little comparison. The Geforce in the Xbox has 64 MB of memory. The Ti4600 has 128 MB. The Xbox has a memory bandwith of 6.4 GB per second. The Ti4600 has a memory bandwith of 10.4 GB per second. The Ti4600 has a 300Mhz core clock. The Geforce in the Xbox has a 250 Mhz core clock. The Ti4600 has a higher pixel fill rate. It can push more polys.

So no, you can't compare the Xbox to a Ti4600.

Let's all not forget that many of the cheaper GeForce 4s are less powerful then good GeForce 3s. Different versions do matter, not just which line it is.

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Originally posted by MechDeus
Let's all not forget that many of the cheaper GeForce 4s are less powerful then good GeForce 3s. Different versions do matter, not just which line it is.

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Yeah, the GeForce 4 MX's are pieces of junk.

The Xbox has a really nice GPU, no doubt. It just ain't a Ti4600. Or any GeForce 4 Ti, for that matter. It essentially has a pumped up GeForce 3 Ti200, which is a great card to begin with.

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Originally posted by Z-roe
Just to chime in on the discussion between Brotherman and Galvatron.

I had a discussion with Ethugg about VF4 vs DOA3 on a graphics level. I personally think VF4 looks better than DOA3. OF course, I realise, that my basis for believing that VF4 looks better is on the basis that I think there is much better artistic value to VF4, with poly models, texturing, and general artistic direction. In my head I *know* DOA3 is better visually, with its levels, and (I assume) higher poly models, but the fact that I feel all that is wasted on poor atristic direction makes me feel that it looks worse than VF4. On the same hand, thats my opinion on VF4 arcade, not VF4 PS2. Once it hit the PS2, and added jaggies to its already chock full 'o jagginess, I felt it had downgraded on the performance level enough to make me feel the artistic value didnt make up for it(enough) anymore. I believe this is a pretty good example of presentation vs graphical performance, and the point Brotherman is trying to make. Just though I would share.

Oh, and Rallisport makes me change my pants.... often.

Z-roe

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Yes. Good example. :)

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Originally posted by Phire
The Gamecube is somewhat equivalent to that of an ATI Radeon card (ATI makes the card in the Gamecube)

And the X-Box is somewhat of an equivalent to that of a GeForce 4 TI4600.

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actually you wrong on both counts

1 the Gamcubes flipper chip was developed by another company that was bought by ATI right before the GC went into production the only thing ATI has to do with it is name

and also the Xbox's Geforce chip is more like an enhanced geforce 3 (think the code for the commercial geforce 3 is what ever 20 and the Xbox's chip is 25 )

*EDIT* both of these were allready stated didnt see them sorry

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Originally posted by Phire


First of all, you are being redundant. ArtX is the original creator of the Flipper chip, all of ArtX's assets have been bought by ATI, therefore what was once ArtX's is now ATI's and only ATI's (legally). ArtX Technology = ATI Technology now, which is why there is an ATI sticker on a gamecube. And Resident Evil uses prerendered backgrounds so I don't see how that would be a good example of processing power. And I actually double checked the specs on gamecube and it's actually worse than the radeon, much worse in fact. A Radeon can push about 30 million textured polygons per sec, A Gamecube can only push 6-12 textured polygons per sec. Playstation 2 is often boasted as pushing 75 million a sec, but this is realistically more closer to 11 million, so in terms of poly pushing both are almost the same. But there are many more factors than just raw poly pushing so there is still will be a definite difference between the two.

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*sigh* gamers shouldnt talk about things they only know from reading IGN

gamecube can push more than 12 million polys the number nintendo posted about the GC (this has been said many times) was BASED on LUIGI'S MANSION

also have you seen the lighting effects going on in RE theres more than just pre rendered backgrounds slapped in there

ive posted this many time this is an email i received from David Stripinis from factor 5 (the people who made Rogue Leader) in reply to my question about what RL was doing



"----- Original Message -----
From: "David Stripinis" <XXXXXXXXX@factor5.com>
To: <maya@highend3d.com>; <XXXXXX@optonline.net>
Sent: Wednesday, October 31, 2001 11:56 AM
Subject: Re: Question for the Factor 5 Guys about Rogue Leader


Thanks. Actually, the number of Ties is much higher, and the number of polys is much lower. We make EXTENSIVE use of Levels of detail, so why there may be a buttload of ships on screen at once, most of them are an order of magnitude or 2 below the ultra high detail versions.

Also remember that we cull polys that arent seen. I would estimaet that at any one time you are only seeing 1/2 - 3/5 of any object, the rest faces away from the camera and is not drawn. Actual numbers are in the 12 -16 million poly / sec range.

Remember though that this is only first gen, so we'll probably be doubling that if not more by the end of the lifecycle.

- -
David Stripinis

Director of Animation | Factor 5



"Occasionally, I have moments of genius. But
most of the time I just nod along and fake it." "


people underestimate the GC too much

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Originally posted by Saint of Killers

I believe Factor 5 claims Rogue Leader pushed 16 million polys a second. If johnpv shows up again, he can clarify this.

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if i didnt have to work tonight i would have cleared that up sooner and would have fucking won that ebay auction for SF collection on the saturn
DAMN WORK!!!!!!

in case anyone is wondering about t hat email im a 3d animator and the program i use is the same one the factor 5 guys use so i asked them about the game on the list serv

the people who made rallisport are also on the list serv ironicaly

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Originally posted by Phire
Mario Sunshine looks like the N64 Mario.

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oh, so you've played super mario sunshine? how is it? surely you must be miyamoto's right hand mand to have had access to the finished version of the game at this point.