Oh boy: Rumsfeld: Criticism of Bush Strengthens U.S. Foes

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14 Sep 2003, 05:29 PM
Stone

Quote:

Originally Posted by Calliander

And Stone, aside from being my buddy in real life, is a cool guy. Don't insult him anymore. He just gets a little heated at times and is liable to call you stupid if you don't see things like he does.

Thanks, Calliander, but I don't need to be defended against stupid motherfuckers who live in some sort of fanciful Revisionisthistoryland. Good, bad, real, not real, the chasm's too wide for discussion on issues like these. I wouldn't debate about the existence of magic with wiccans, about how much the Raiders suck with Raiders fans, so on. They're not individual actors - witting or not, they're proselytes to Wahhabism, and are no longer thinking on the same level you or I are.

Honestly, all that matters to me right now is that I believe in my own convictions, that I will continue listening, and that my side is the one with more guns.

We're right and we've got the advantage - we don't have to lower ourselves, debase ourselves, by justifying ourselves to them. It's beneficial to me to know what people like Spacecowboy and Almaci think, but it's not beneficial to me to let them know what I, we, think. My beliefs can be no further refined through discussion with them, so, hey, I'm done.

If for some reason our side loses the numerical advantage, the material advantage, then maybe I'll feel obligated to battle for hearts and minds - until then, fuck them.

This isn't to say that I'm uninterested in talk about the subject - simply that I've realized it's a waste of time to try to engage everyone.

(God, why am I doing this: Spacecowboy mentions Jenin, something about "untold thousands" and "bloody scythes" and so on (it sounds like you've got a promising career ahead of you as a terrorist speechwriter). Look, I don't think the liars working for the Palestinians even had gall significant enough to claim more than 500 deaths - this was something trumped up by the BBC that was later repudiated by almost everyone involved. I know that, you know that, Spacecowboy knows that - hell, we had a long discussion back when the shit happened that ended in the subject being essentially dropped for a complete, obvious lack of support for the "Jenin was a massacre" side. Give it a year, forget about the facts, and the little fantasy lives again as another terrible justification for new terrorist horrors.)

However, I do have to say - what the Israeli terrorist gangs of the late 40s did (yes, there were gangs of Israeli terrorists back then) was inexcusable. The situation has been perverted - the Arab combatants at Deir Yassin have been forgotten, the Arab 'non-combatants' with guns who fired on Israelis have been forgotten, the casualty figures have been trumped up - but none of that matters: the Israelis did some despicable things, then, and there's not much to say about it. I think the contrast between what happened with Deir Yassin, the Stern Gang, and the way that the IDF acts now is striking, and important. No one, Jews particularly, should forget about stuff like that, though, forget that Israelis are capable of the same horrible acts that Palestinians are, and that a vigilant faith in democracy is the only thing that keeps Israelis from all descending to that level.
14 Sep 2003, 10:44 PM
Almaci

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

The Soviet Union was providing low level military weapons to Iran and training. The US(Reagan) counter-balanced that by training the Iraqi soldiers .

During Operation Desert Storm, Saddam dropped scud missiles(Loaded with chemical gases) on the Kurds, killing about 180,000 people.

And the US provided weapons to Iran as well, do youre homework.

180k Kurds during gulf war 1?
Find me some info on that since I cant find any.
15 Sep 2003, 12:19 AM
Melf

Quote:

Originally Posted by gamevet

The Soviet Union was providing low level military weapons to Iran and training. The US(Reagan) counter-balanced that by training the Iraqi soldiers .

..and providing intelligence assistance to Iraq in the form of satellite photography to help the Iraqis understand how Iranian forces were deployed against them.

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During Operation Desert Storm, Saddam dropped scud missiles(Loaded with chemical gases) on the Kurds, killing about 180,000 people.

..and also by helicopters sold to him by the U.S. We basically gave Saddam the means and the excuse to do it too. In 1986, President Reagan sent a secret message to Saddam Hussein telling him that Iraq should step up its air war and bombing of Iran. This message was delivered by Vice President Bush who communicated it to Egyptian President Mubarak, who in turn passed the message to Saddam Hussein.
15 Sep 2003, 03:55 PM
DOVESKI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter

I agree that we should have thought more about reconstruction. I think that we overestimated the amount of assistance we'd get and underestimated the amount of resistance from terrorists.

What terrorists? You mean the local 15 year olds who dont like American tanks on their streets? HAHAHA!!!!

I thought we were going there to free the Iraqis, wait...before that we were going to find the weapons of mass destruction, wait...i guess...now since there are no wmds and the average Iraqi citizen now has less rights and protection than under Saddam....all of a sudden we are fighting terrorism, even though the Baathist party and Al Queda have absolutely no connections. Hahaha, what a fuckin joke, 20,000 dead Iraqi civilians, busted pipelines, haliburton contracts and scared American troops who remain clueless. With 78 billion we can repair every public shcool in this country, buy computers, new textbooks, pay teachers more, start public construction projects, get people working again. Invest in Americas future, not this bullshit.

In retrospect I think Israel bitchslapped the US into invading Iraq. And the administration figured, why not, we can test our new weapons, up the military industrial complex (give Bush's lobbyist's more money), and grab the oil while were at it.
15 Sep 2003, 04:33 PM
Jimmy Carter

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Originally Posted by DOVESKI

What terrorists? You mean the local 15 year olds who dont like American tanks on their streets? HAHAHA!!!!

They aren't kids, they're adult terrorists blowing people up.

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I thought we were going there to free the Iraqis, wait...before that we were going to find the weapons of mass destruction, wait...i guess

Read your history. We had to tool about in Japan and Germany for years after WWII, and we're going to have to do the same in Iraq. Otherwise, we'll get another WWII on our hands.

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...now since there are no wmds

That hasn't been proven yet.

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and the average Iraqi citizen now has less rights and protection than under Saddam....

Not even remotely true. Only an idiot would say such things. They have much more freedom at the moment and if you read just a bit of real news, instead of being a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment/Baathist Party/etc., you'd hear about it.

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all of a sudden we are fighting terrorism,

All of a sudden? We've been doing it since 9/11/01

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even though the Baathist party and Al Queda have absolutely no connections.

Al Queda training camps existed in Iraq and Iraqi officials met with Bin Laden. The Baathists as a rule were terrorists who ruled over an oppressed people.

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Hahaha, what a fuckin joke, 20,000 dead Iraqi civilians,

You have no proof of those numbers.

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busted pipelines,

The work of terrorists, mind you. Terrorists acting against our reconstruction efforts.

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haliburton contracts

Oh boy, one of the biggest oil companies gets a oil contract! Imagine that?

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and scared American troops who remain clueless.

Scared? Where are you getting this crap from?

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With 78 billion we can repair every public shcool in this country, buy computers, new textbooks, pay teachers more, start public construction projects, get people working again.

Not true. Money will not fix the school system; it's nothing but piling dollars onto a fire. It may put the flames out for a bit, but a few minutes later, it turns into a bigger fire.

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Invest in Americas future, not this bullshit.

Destroying terrorism is ensuring America's future.

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In retrospect I think Israel bitchslapped the US into invading Iraq. And the administration figured, why not, we can test our new weapons, up the military industrial complex (give Bush's lobbyist's more money), and grab the oil while were at it.

There you have it, folks. The absolute epitomy of an intellectual black hole. I highly doubt Israel has any control over US policies; as it is, we're the ones holding them back from taking action.
15 Sep 2003, 04:45 PM
DOVESKI

Jimmy,

Iraq was in no way connected to international terrorism. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia are, why dont we invade their countries and take their spoils?

Bottom line is, you cannot invade a country and take whatever you want, that is agaisnt international law, regardless if you dont like the leader.....there are no ties between Iraq and Al-Queada, the evidence powell provided at the UN was proved to be false many times over,the Iraqis firing RPGs at US tropps ARE NOT terrorists, they want their country back, Middle Eastern people are very proud and are no interested in being a colony like say the Phillipines, the US is not interested in rebuilding Iraq that is bullshit, Iraq will be in a constant state of occupation and general choas for the next twenty years, we are truly in a quagmire.
15 Sep 2003, 04:59 PM
Jimmy Carter

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOVESKI

Iraq was in no way connected to international terrorism. Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia are, why dont we invade their countries and take their spoils?

What are you, 15? You sound like you take in whatever Al Jazeera tells you and then spit it back out on everyone else.

Iraq had Al Queda training camps in its borders. Saddam paid the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. They've had plenty of documented behavior dedicated to fostering terrorism.

And as for "taking" anyone's "spoils"; we haven't "taken" any "spoils" yet. You were the one just bitching about spending money on reconstruction, and now you are insinuating our "taking" of "spoils". Make up your mind, which is it? Spending or taking?

We're spending $87 billion to take care of countries that we had to bust up due to the harboring of terrorists/weapons. We spent over $100 pervious to the $87 billion just making war. We're not taking anything.

Speaking, though, of Saudi Arabia, you and I are in agreement. We should give them the rundown.

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Bottom line is, you cannot invade a country and take whatever you want,

Again, what's with taking? We will have spent almost, or over, $200 billion dollars in this effort. Money that we aren't going to make back because we're spending so much rebuilding countries and establishing economies.

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that is agaisnt international law, regardless if you dont like the leader

International law also establishes certain rights for humans that were not being enforced in Iraq, but those people beaing tortured should have just been left that way because you feel woozy about making the world mad at us.

As it is, a country has the right to defend itself and no international law has the right to deny anyone that right.

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.....there are no ties between Iraq and Al-Queada,

Yeah there are. Camps found post-conflict.

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the evidence powell provided at the UN was proved to be false many times over,

When did this happen? I'd like to know. Some of it was questionable, but I haven't seen any headlines about "POWELL PROVEN 100% FALSE".

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the Iraqis firing RPGs at US tropps ARE NOT terrorists, they want their country back,

Wow, what a complete and total tool. Saddam would be proud of you. You bought into every piece of propaganda coming out of the region without even thinking. These men are not people wanting a country for the good of their people, they're wanting the Baathists back in charge. They want Saddam in charge. When Saddam was in charge, the Iraqis didn't have a country. They were slaves under an evil master, and your inability to see that is frightening.

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Middle Eastern people are very proud and are no interested in being a colony like say the Phillipines,

We were in Japan for years after WWII. Look at them now. Nice, eh?

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the US is not interested in rebuilding Iraq that is bullshit,

How do you know this?

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Iraq will be in a constant state of occupation and general choas for the next twenty years, we are truly in a quagmire.

500,000 in WWII.

50,000 in Vietnam.

300 in Gulf War II.

No quagmire yet.

You'd better call Miss Cleo and get your five bucks back.
15 Sep 2003, 05:00 PM
DOVESKI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter

Read your history. We had to tool about in Japan and Germany for years after WWII, and we're going to have to do the same in Iraq. Otherwise, we'll get another WWII on our hands.

That is an invalid argument, Iraq can in no way be compared to post war Germany or Japan countries with strong historical unity, strong pre war economies and militaries, etc....Iraq's borders do not reflect the varied ethnicities and religious sects which are present there.

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Not even remotely true. Only an idiot would say such things. They have much more freedom at the moment and if you read just a bit of real news, instead of being a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment/Baathist Party/etc., you'd hear about it.

I could easily call you a mouthpiece for the Right Wing Fundametalists, but I dont know you personally, please show the same respect for me.

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All of a sudden? We've been doing it since 9/11/01

Really, didnt ABC news just slip depleted uranium into the US with no problems, so much for homeland security. And if you think invading Iraq equates to fighting terrorism you my friend have pulled the wool over your own eyes. Invading Iraq will only fuel the flames of Islamic Fundametalism and Arab unity against the US/Israel.

You can only fight terrorism by changing your foreign policy.

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Al Queda training camps existed in Iraq and Iraqi officials met with Bin Laden.

Proof?

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The work of terrorists, mind you. Terrorists acting against our reconstruction efforts.

One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, perhaps if we showed the iraqi people we have their interests at hand, we would not have pipelines being bombed.

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Not true. Money will not fix the school system; it's nothing but piling dollars onto a fire. It may put the flames out for a bit, but a few minutes later, it turns into a bigger fire.

What will fix the schools then, magic?

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Destroying terrorism is ensuring America's future.

America has greater problems on the horizon than terrorism. You sound like a scared little pussycat who watches to much Fox news.
15 Sep 2003, 05:16 PM
Jimmy Carter

Quote:

Originally Posted by DOVESKI

That is an invalid argument, Iraq can in no way be compared to post war Germany or Japan countries with strong historical unity, strong pre war economies and militaries, etc....Iraq's borders do not reflect the varied ethnicities and religious sects which are present there.

What's the point of that? We're trying to rebuild Iraq, what's your problem with that?

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I could easily call you a mouthpiece for the Right Wing Fundametalists, but I dont know you personally, please show the same respect for me.

You could. But I'm not reciting garbage that even the people on my side would disagree with.

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Really, didnt ABC news just slip depleted uranium into the US with no problems, so much for homeland security. And if you think invading Iraq equates to fighting terrorism you my friend have pulled the wool over your own eyes. Invading Iraq will only fuel the flames of Islamic Fundametalism and Arab unity against the US/Israel.

Oh my word... so... the people who hate America and want Americans to die ... just might begin to hate America and want Americans to die?!?!

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You can only fight terrorism by changing your foreign policy.

Appease terrorists?

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Proof?

It's called "News".

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One mans terrorist is another man's freedom fighter, perhaps if we showed the iraqi people we have their interests at hand, we would not have pipelines being bombed.

Wow. What a steaming pile of ignorance. So, killing national income is a way to "keep the Iraqi interests at hand"?

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What will fix the schools then, magic?

Standards, competition.

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America has greater problems on the horizon than terrorism. You sound like a scared little pussycat who watches to much Fox news.

Like what?
15 Sep 2003, 05:22 PM
DOVESKI

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter

What are you, 15? You sound like you take in whatever Al Jazeera tells you and then spit it back out on everyone else.

Um yeah....

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Iraq had Al Queda training camps in its borders. Saddam paid the families of Palestinian homicide bombers. They've had plenty of documented behavior dedicated to fostering terrorism.

Where are you getting this training camp nonsense, just because Arabs all speak the same language and have brown hair does not mean they are all in cohorts....on suicide bombers...yes he did pay the families, what does that have to do with the United States, this is not Israel.

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Again, what's with taking? We will have spent almost, or over, $200 billion dollars in this effort. Money that we aren't going to make back because we're spending so much rebuilding countries and establishing economies.

We are spending that money so Iraq can become America's little base of operations in the Middle East. We are getting thrown out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait aint big enough, part of the neo-con agenda is to establish the US in every corner of the world, empire building by old world standards. Its all laid down in Paul Wolfowitz's Project for the New American Century reader, written in 1998, executed right after 9/11.

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International law also establishes certain rights for humans that were not being enforced in Iraq, but those people beaing tortured should have just been left that way because you feel woozy about making the world mad at us.

As it is, a country has the right to defend itself and no international law has the right to deny anyone that right.

If you think the US administration gives a fuck about human rights being enforced you are a fool. North Korea, Tanzinia, the Congo, Tibet....why Iraq then???

And we werent defending ourselves, hence the term premptive.

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When did this happen? I'd like to know. Some of it was questionable, but I haven't seen any headlines about "POWELL PROVEN 100% FALSE".

The BBC reported that Powell plagarized the documents presented at the UN from a British graduate student, the documents were from 1992.
Trying looking at some interanational material.

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Wow, what a complete and total tool. Saddam would be proud of you. You bought into every piece of propaganda coming out of the region without even thinking. These men are not people wanting a country for the good of their people, they're wanting the Baathists back in charge. They want Saddam in charge. When Saddam was in charge, the Iraqis didn't have a country.

How many Iraqis have you spoken to? At least under the Baathist they had running water and hospitals, I would want the Baathist back as well if I were Iraqi, you know Jimmy sometimes you gotta put yourself in other peoples shoes to truly understand a situation. You stuck in some sort of dreamworld where everything is black and white, we are good, they are bad, the world is much more colorful than that my friend, perhaps if you traveled outside of your Minnesota confines you would see that, I feel bad for people like you.

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They were slaves under an evil master, and your inability to see that is frightening.

What are they now then? Happy people under a good empire? They were bombed, killed, maimed during the US invasion. And you expect them not to resent US forces, violence breeds more violence, none of the current events suprise me one bit. I predicted this pre war and I was right, I dont need Miss Cleo, you pompous smart ass.

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