Oh boy: Rumsfeld: Criticism of Bush Strengthens U.S. Foes

Where are they coming from?

I wonder if people were this fanatical back in the early days of the U.S. Did we have ultra-liberals back then?

Statesman #1: "You know what I was thinking, Sir William?"
Statesman #2: "What's that, Jebediah?"
#1: "Perhaps we should allow women to vote. I was thinking that maybe they weren't inferior to us."
#2: "Blasphemy!"
Statesman #3: "J00 R A11 F0oLzz! W0myN R w4Y b3tteR tHaN M3N! L3ZBO PR1DE, B1aTch!!!!"
#1 & 2: "What the hell was that about?"

Hehe.

He did have a point, Jimmy - "mouthpiece" isn't nice. Play nice, now. :)

How am I a liberal.....because I think the invasion of Iraq was a total farce, I happen to be pro life, and go to a Christian Church every Sunday, WOW!!!! But guess what, I dont like Bush and think he is a man who has done nothing but taken advantage of 9/11 to push his own agenda....cheapenig the tragedy.....sickening really.....once again the world isnt black and white people. Despite what your television says.

In all fairness Jimmy, Ansar al Islam a terrorist group backed by al-Queda was operating in the tribal Kurd territory untouched by Saddam in northern Iraq, does give the US a reason to take over Iraq and kill 10,000 civilians and maim 20,000 more (according to Christian Science Monitor) of course not.

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Originally Posted by DOVESKI

Where are you getting this training camp nonsense, just because Arabs all speak the same language and have brown hair does not mean they are all in cohorts....on suicide bombers...yes he did pay the families, what does that have to do with the United States, this is not Israel.

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I didn't say all Arabs are operating together in terrorism. I said that Iraq and Al-Queda were linked; terror camps existed in Iraq.

http://edition.cnn.com/2002/US/09/26/us.iraq.alqaeda/
http://www.smh.com.au/articles/2003/...653833092.html
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/...in523963.shtml
http://www.intellnet.org/news/2003/02/12/16726-1.html

You said Iraq had no connections to international terrorism, so by saying that he [url=http://www.guardian.co.uk/wtccrash/story/0,1300,553746,00.html]funded terrorists in Israel, you admit that you were wrong.

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We are spending that money so Iraq can become America's little base of operations in the Middle East. We are getting thrown out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait aint big enough, part of the neo-con agenda is to establish the US in every corner of the world, empire building by old world standards. Its all laid down in Paul Wolfowitz's Project for the New American Century reader, written in 1998, executed right after 9/11.

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Exactly. And you poor libs aren't gonna get even a piece of the action! We're going to dominate you and force you to perform bizarre, cruel acts of sexual perversion.

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If you think the US administration gives a fuck about human rights being enforced you are a fool. North Korea, Tanzinia, the Congo, Tibet....why Iraq then???

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I said that Iraq was breaking rules. And that's true. Is it not?

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And we werent defending ourselves, hence the term premptive.

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Retaliation is not an option with terrorism.

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The BBC reported that Powell plagarized the documents presented at the UN from a British graduate student, the documents were from 1992.
Trying looking at some interanational material.

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Some, not all. Key word. You haven't proven him 100% incorrect.

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How many Iraqis have you spoken to? At least under the Baathist they had running water and hospitals,

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All hospitals are up and running. Water is, by and large, functioning.

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I would want the Baathist back as well if I were Iraqi,

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Sure you would. Sure you would. Would you also like not having a freedom to speak whatever you want? You wouldn't have that freedom. Forget voting, because you're not able to really vote under the Baathists.

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you know Jimmy sometimes you gotta put yourself in other peoples shoes to truly understand a situation. You stuck in some sort of dreamworld where everything is black and white,

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The war against terror is black and white.

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we are good, they are bad,

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True, true.

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the world is much more colorful than that my friend,

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I'm not your friend. Don't even try using that old standby to seduce me into your odd logic.

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perhaps if you traveled outside of your Minnesota confines you would see that, I feel bad for people like you.

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Ha ha ha... oh wow. You know me?

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What are they now then?

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Iraqis?

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Happy people under a good empire?

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We're not an empire, but if that's what you think, sure.

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They were bombed, killed, maimed during the US invasion.

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True.

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And you expect them not to resent US forces,

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We liberated them. That's something. Of course they aren't going to be perfectly happy, but they have freedom now.

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violence breeds more violence,

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No it doesn't, not when you kill your enemies.

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none of the current events suprise me one bit. I predicted this pre war and I was right, I dont need Miss Cleo, you pompous smart ass.

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Did you now?

No more wasting time. bye bye.

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Originally Posted by Calliander

Where are they coming from?
He did have a point, Jimmy - "mouthpiece" isn't nice. Play nice, now. :)

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If he weren't comparing the terrorists sabotaging Iraqi oil lines and killing US troops to freedom fighters (i.e. the French Undergound in WWII or the Revolutionary War heroes of the US), I wouldn't get so bent out of shape.

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Originally Posted by DOVESKI

Um yeah....

Where are you getting this training camp nonsense, just because Arabs all speak the same language and have brown hair does not mean they are all in cohorts....on suicide bombers...yes he did pay the families, what does that have to do with the United States, this is not Israel.

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First of all, calm down my brother. This is only an internet messageboard, we have nothing to prove. Nobody needs to be insulted or hurt. This goes for that "mouthpiece" comment, too.

This may not be Israel, but it's still terrorism. For all we know, it could lead here in the future. And isn't the bolded part above a bit racist? I don't know personally, but I'm pretty sure that it's been proven that there were Al Qaeda training camps in Iraq. (I could be wrong.) Whether or not they were funded to encouraged by the Iraqi government is another issue which will probably never be resolved.

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We are spending that money so Iraq can become America's little base of operations in the Middle East. We are getting thrown out of Saudi Arabia and Kuwait aint big enough, part of the neo-con agenda is to establish the US in every corner of the world, empire building by old world standards. Its all laid down in Paul Wolfowitz's Project for the New American Century reader, written in 1998, executed right after 9/11.

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Uh oh, you said "neo-con". I agree that the PNAC stuff is scary. It sounds way too much like "Manifest Destiny" to me, just disguised. I know that stopping terrorism and helping oppressed people are noble causes, but I'm still wary about the whole thing.

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The BBC reported that Powell plagarized the documents presented at the UN from a British graduate student, the documents were from 1992.

Trying looking at some interanational material.

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I believed that what happened was Powell was lead to believe that the information was accurate and true. There's no way to prove otherwise, though. However, I don't ever remember seeing anything about the info being plagiarized. I'd like to see some sources for that, from actual news sites, not opinion columns and unheard of newspapers produced in Turkey.

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How many Iraqis have you spoken to? At least under the Baathist they had running water and hospitals, I would want the Baathist back as well if I were Iraqi, you know Jimmy sometimes you gotta put yourself in other peoples shoes to truly understand a situation. You stuck in some sort of dreamworld where everything is black and white, we are good, they are bad, the world is much more colorful than that my friend, perhaps if you traveled outside of your Minnesota confines you would see that, I feel bad for people like you.

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Watch it with the insults there. Treat in kind, man.

First of all, look: I'm a liberal. I dislike Bush just as much as the next liberal/Democrat/whoever isn't conservative. From what you say, you sound to me like someone with liberal leanings. So here's a question to you: Why do we have to disagree when it comes to matters of humanity just because a certain person whose views opposed of ours is running things? The people in Iraq were suffering. I would like to see evidence of otherwise. There is no reason NOT to go in and help them. Okay, maybe we went about it the wrong way. Maybe we should have had help from the rest of the world. I don't know. The point is, we did it, and now we're dealing with it, and I'm fucking happy to pay whatever to help these people.

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What are they now then? Happy people under a good empire?

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No, but eventually we will get them happy again.

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They were bombed, killed, maimed during the US invasion. And you expect them not to resent US forces, violence breeds more violence, none of the current events suprise me one bit.

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Nobody said that they don't resent us. But that doesn't mean we give up, pack it in, and move on. We have to help them now, no matter what happened in the past. Do you want us to pull out and give up like we did after Desert Storm?

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I predicted this pre war and I was right, I dont need Miss Cleo, you pompous smart ass.

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Two strikes. We can have an intelligent discourse on here without insults. We've done it before. Let's keep it civil.

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Originally Posted by DOVESKI

No more wasting time. bye bye.

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Why do they back out when someone presents good evidence and say that they are wasting their time? What time? The time spent posting on a video game messageboard?

Jimmy, I'd respond to your stuff except I'm not smart enough and I also don't have any sources. :)

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter

See, this is what liberals do when faced with explaining their position: shift.

What were the other "fuck ups"?

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Try Vietnam.... or are they still telling you all you won that war? Moron. :P

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Originally Posted by DOVESKI

...kill 10,000 civilians and maim 20,000 more (according to Christian Science Monitor) of course not.

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Hehe. What a reliable source. :)

Well, we see he's not a liberal, at least. That always makes me feel better. Seemed like he had some sort of, "We shouldn't be out doing things in the world, we should take care of our problems ONLY!" type of attitude. Tsk.

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Originally Posted by Jimmy Carter

They aren't kids, they're adult terrorists blowing people up.



Read your history. We had to tool about in Japan and Germany for years after WWII, and we're going to have to do the same in Iraq. Otherwise, we'll get another WWII on our hands.



That hasn't been proven yet.



Not even remotely true. Only an idiot would say such things. They have much more freedom at the moment and if you read just a bit of real news, instead of being a mouthpiece for the liberal establishment/Baathist Party/etc., you'd hear about it.



All of a sudden? We've been doing it since 9/11/01



Al Queda training camps existed in Iraq and Iraqi officials met with Bin Laden. The Baathists as a rule were terrorists who ruled over an oppressed people.



You have no proof of those numbers.



The work of terrorists, mind you. Terrorists acting against our reconstruction efforts.



Oh boy, one of the biggest oil companies gets a oil contract! Imagine that?



Scared? Where are you getting this crap from?



Not true. Money will not fix the school system; it's nothing but piling dollars onto a fire. It may put the flames out for a bit, but a few minutes later, it turns into a bigger fire.



Destroying terrorism is ensuring America's future.



There you have it, folks. The absolute epitomy of an intellectual black hole. I highly doubt Israel has any control over US policies; as it is, we're the ones holding them back from taking action.

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Say can you give ANY credible sources for youre outlandish claims?

Oh just one more thing.
The training camps were in the North in Kurd teritory, teritory that has been out of Saddam´s rule since 1992 and was protected by the US trough the air by jets lifting of from Turkey and destroying Iraqi forces if they dared come close enough to the no fly zones.

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Originally Posted by Calliander

First of all, look: I'm a liberal. I dislike Bush just as much as the next liberal/Democrat/whoever isn't conservative. From what you say, you sound to me like someone with liberal leanings. So here's a question to you: Why do we have to disagree when it comes to matters of humanity just because a certain person whose views opposed of ours is running things? The people in Iraq were suffering. I would like to see evidence of otherwise. There is no reason NOT to go in and help them. Okay, maybe we went about it the wrong way. Maybe we should have had help from the rest of the world. I don't know. The point is, we did it, and now we're dealing with it, and I'm fucking happy to pay whatever to help these people.


Why do they back out when someone presents good evidence and say that they are wasting their time? What time? The time spent posting on a video game messageboard?

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Man if you're liberal then what am I? ;) A dislike of Bush doesn't automatically mean you're a liberal. But anyways, I don't think this is a question about humanity. Of course, if it were then I'm sure everyone would be happy to help these people. But it isn't the job of the U.S. or any other country to police the world and make sure that everything is going the way we want it to. And if you love America so much, why don't you stand up like this to help pay whatever to help Americans? Oh yeah, because in this country it's everyone for themselves. If you can't make it then your lazy. I wonder why we don't have that attitude towards Iraq. "Well, they let themselves get taken over by Saddam." I'd rather see Americans getting help, because contrary to what Bush is telling everyone, our country isn't doing so well.

And Jimmy, why is every liberal a tool of the Baathist party or something equally absurd? :p

SC