Oh boy: Rumsfeld: Criticism of Bush Strengthens U.S. Foes

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Originally Posted by DOVESKI

So you calling bombing innocent people, killing mothers, fathers, sons, and daughters helping....wow. We killed more Iraqis in 2 months than Saddam during his whole career.

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Wow... just... WOW!! :eek: That's.... not right...

Firstly, the Christian Science Monitor said between 5000 and 10,000 Iraqi civilians were killed. That was the number two researchers provided them, but asked to remain unnamed because the numbers are unsubstantiated. iraqibodycount.com estimates the number between 6000 and 8000.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html

Secondly, as for that "we killed more Iraqis in 2 months than Saddam during his whole career" thing, oy:

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm

Tho I'm sure that will be dismissed as lie and propaganda.

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Originally Posted by Scourge

Wow... just... WOW!! :eek: That's.... not right...

Firstly, the Christian Science Monitor said between 5000 and 10,000 Iraqi civilians were killed. That was the number two researchers provided them, but asked to remain unnamed because the numbers are unsubstantiated. iraqibodycount.com estimates the number between 6000 and 8000.

http://www.csmonitor.com/2003/0522/p01s02-woiq.html

Secondly, as for that "we killed more Iraqis in 2 months than Saddam during his whole career" thing, oy:

http://www.state.gov/p/nea/rls/19675.htm

Tho I'm sure that will be dismissed as lie and propaganda.

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Thank you. I was going to say that, myself, but lunch break beckoned and I wanted some food.

Yeah, this was on all the news networks, I think the exact number of Iraqi deaths was close to 6200, and that includes the bad guys. (Could be wrong.)

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Originally Posted by DOVESKI

And how are we going to give all those "things" to the Iraqis. Again they dont want Christian overlords, they dont want a US appointed leader to dictate the law, look whats happening in Afghanistan, the Taliban has taken over the southern part of the country, Karzai called it quits, and the opium trade is greater than ever....wheres the plan???

If we cant do it in Afghanistan how are we going to bring them our brand of freedom in Iraq. Freedom doent come in the form of bombs, tanks, and soldiers knocking down your doors.

Get real, it wont work.

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Actually, I believe we gave up on Afghanistan, which is why things are like they are. If we don't give up on Iraq, we can succeed. We're not trying to be Christian overlords, or at least I hope we aren't. I've heard speculation as to these sorts of things, but I've never seen any evidence about it. Also, you didn't say whether you thought those were lofty ideals or not.

How do we know what they want and do not want? Was there an official poll of Iraqis released? You can't judge them by their actions, a lot of Iraqi citizens were around for Desert Storm, and there's a lot of anti-US propaganda out there that is easy to believe. You can't expect them to all of a sudden be like, "Well, we're freed, so all of that stuff I learned from those history books is wrong and America is great! Yippie!" Are we purposely and maliciously killing Iraqis? No. Was Hussein? Yes. Which is better? It doesn't matter how many people we killed, even in comparison to Hussein, because we are not going to do any more killing; whereas who knows how many more people Hussein would have killed?

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The article on the web page was reprinted from the post, smh is a legitiamte news source. I remeber the story being leaked out for about a day on US television and the net, unsurprisingly it was yanked from the archives of all major US media.

edit: I have the original article bookmarked, as you can see it has been yanked....

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Ouch! :eek: Burned!

I can't believe there is an actual iraqibodycount.com. How sick is that? I think both DOVESKI and Calliander make good points, but I believe that the underlying theme is that there is alot of uncertainty around this whole situation. I agree that it would be extremely unwise to pull out of Iraq now, but it pisses me off that we're there in the first place. Thank goodness BoBVila isn't here to ruin what has been a pretty fun discussion and debate.

SC

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Originally Posted by spacecowboy

Thank goodness BoBVila isn't here to ruin what has been a pretty fun discussion and debate.

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I know I always say to say "no" to insults, but...

Amen to that.

Question (semi-on topic): When was the last time America was actively involved in a military conflict during an election? And I'm talking large # of troops committed near the November election-time.

I'm rough on my US history (studied English and medieval history for fun in college). I think it was Nam, but I could be wrong.

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Originally Posted by Wolffen

Question (semi-on topic): When was the last time America was actively involved in a military conflict during an election? And I'm talking large # of troops committed near the November election-time.

I'm rough on my US history (studied English and medieval history for fun in college). I think it was Nam, but I could be wrong.

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That is a good question and I believe that you are correct.

Here's some conspiracy theory stuff for ya - JFK was beginning to pull troops out and then like a month or so later, Grassy Knoll. Scary stuff. *nods head in conspiratorial sort of manner*

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Originally Posted by Calliander

That is a good question and I believe that you are correct.

Here's some conspiracy theory stuff for ya - JFK was beginning to pull troops out and then like a month or so later, Grassy Knoll. Scary stuff. *nods head in conspiratorial sort of manner*

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You may be more right than you think. I was talking to a man named Robert Groden once, who is one of the foremost authorities on the JFK assassination, and he told me that his decision to pull out of Vietnam could have been related to his death. His ideology is that LBJ didn't want out of Vietnam cuz he and his friends had a lot of money in military contracts. So he believes that Johnson played a significant role in JFK's assassination. It's some really frightening stuff, especially since Mr. Groden has been imprisoned and had attempts on his on life for reporting what he has. He's at Dealey Plaza every weekend if anyone wants to see him.

SC

I actually thought that was common knowledge? Or, at least, an accurate assumption?

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Originally Posted by Stone

You're a cop, and a guy is pointing a gun at you. You ask him to lower his gun, and he won't - mexican standoff and so on, you can't lower your gun, so you shoot him. After you shoot him, you walk over, and find out that his gun was empty. I'm disappointed about the WMD situation in Iraq the same way that cop would be when he saw that empty gun.

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Not really a good example- denied having WMD's, they weren't threatening us with them. Besides, the guy in your example with the empty gun chose to bluff an armed opponent, and he paid the price. If a guy pointed a gun at me, I'd blow his head off. It wouldn't matter to me if the gun ended up being unloaded or not, how would I know beforehand? I wouln't be willing to take that risk.

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

Attempting genocide, enslaving people up until 150 years ago, Vietnam, putting people into internment camps based on race, etc. Oh, you probably want something more recent. How about financing Osama and the Taliban?

No, you're right, America never fucks up.

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Best post in this thread.

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Originally Posted by Almaci

A)And the US provided weapons to Iran as well, do youre homework.

B)180k Kurds during gulf war 1?
Find me some info on that since I cant find any.

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A) http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/ar...TICLE_ID=26849
It's called the balance of power and if we let the former Soviet Union have their way in the Middle East, there would be no Iran or Iraq to speak of. Those scud missiles Iraq was letting lose on Isreal and the Kurd were Soviet designed in the 60's.

BTW, its "your homework".


B) http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn...2003Sep15.html

It was 5,000 Kurds killed, another 10,000 injured. Right before the second Gulf War, CNBC, CNN and countless other news sources talked about him killing approximately 180,000 Kurds, through imprisonment, torture and fighting. 5,000 is nothing to sneeze at either.