Illegal Immigration

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Originally Posted by Stone

I'm glad you don't teach economics. The "spoiled adults playing children's games FOR MILLIONS" generate loads and loads of money, because people like watching sports.

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Remember this the next time you pay $5 for a hot dog at a game or $30 for an official jersey. :p

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

It's alot easier to immigrate from Europe than it is to immigrate from Mexico. Immigrants with a good education and in demand job skills are much more likely to be accepted, and you're more likely to be accepted if you come from a country where not a lot of people immigrate to the US. More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland.

So MVS's example probably isn't the best.

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True, but it makes the most sense. It's like that everywhere you go, in all aspects of life. If you were running a company would you want an unskilled, uneducated worker that couldn't even speak English? Probably not. Not saying that all Mexicans that try to immigrate here fit that description (could be anyone from any country), but the appeal of wanting the best and weeding out the undesirables is universal.

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Originally Posted by Stone

The fact that players have absurd amounts of money is the sort of liberal pro-capitalist success story that we should all celebrate as being distinctly, terrifically American.

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Exactly.

This is a rough analogy, but I told someone in one of the threads that piracy isn't the reason that games cost $49.99, the consumers are.

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Originally Posted by gameoverDude

Companies who pay immigrants those subminimum wages should be fined heavily.

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Funny thing is I was listening to Talk Radio KABC this evening and heard something interesting. There was a study done on companies hiring illegal immigrants. They found about 200,000 doing this; there is a federal fine of $10,000 for any business following this practice.

Out of the 200,000 companies breaking federal law, guess how many were actually fined?

13.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Funny thing is I was listening to Talk Radio KABC this evening and heard something interesting. There was a study done on companies hiring illegal immigrants. They found about 200,000 doing this; there is a federal fine of $10,000 for any business following this practice.

Out of the 200,000 companies breaking federal law, guess how many were actually fined?

13.

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It's a likely guess most of the companies have business relations or are of some importance to our work economy, so they've been crossed off the list.

Those 13 didn't bribe enough.

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

It's alot easier to immigrate from Europe than it is to immigrate from Mexico. Immigrants with a good education and in demand job skills are much more likely to be accepted, and you're more likely to be accepted if you come from a country where not a lot of people immigrate to the US. More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland.

So MVS's example probably isn't the best.

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Did you miss the part of my example where I tell you that my father left school at 13?

He played soccer and drove a truck, that's hardly a good education or an in-demand job.

According to the INS, legal immigration in 2000 was 849,807, coming mainly from Mexico (173,919), China (45,652), the Philippines (42,474), India (42,096), and Vietnam (26,747). Together, these five countries accounted for 40 percent of all legal immigration.

And there goes your theory that it's harder to get a visa if you are Mexican...

"Illegal or unauthorized immigrants" enter the US by avoiding official inspection, pass through inspection with fraudulent documents, enter legally but overstay the terms of their temporary visas, or somehow violate other terms of their visa. Under IRCA in 1986, roughly 2.7 million unauthorized migrants were legalized. While it is notoriously difficult to estimate the undocumented population, the US Census Bureau and most independent analysts place the figure at somewhere between 8 and 9 million in 2001, estimating growth of around 500,000 each year. Mexico remains the leading country of origin, claiming nearly half of the total, with several Central American and European countries also strongly represented.

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Originally Posted by voltz

It's a likely guess most of the companies have business relations or are of some importance to our work economy, so they've been crossed off the list.

Those 13 didn't bribe enough.

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Oh, holy hell.

The reason why is because we have these federal laws in place, and then don't enforce them. Why? Because it isn't viewed as tolerant, or nice, or PC, or whatever.

Like 199,987 companies just shelled out money, the feds turn a blind eye, and there's no 'blow the lid off this' article in the press? Suuuuuure.

It's more likely that the govt. makes its own rules, and then ignores them for their own merit. Afterall, you wouldn't want to be in politics and piss off any potential voting blocks, would you?

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Hey, as it's been pointed out it's FAR harder to become a Canadian citizen. I don't think we need to make it easier to become a citizen here. I mean, what exactly do you think should be changed?

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Where do you get this assumption from? The process of becoming a Canadian citizen is almost identical to becoming a US citizen, except you only need to live there for 4 years instead of 5. It is not more difficult than the US process.

As far as general immigration goes, the system is set up slightly differently, so it is easier for some people to enter Canada than the US, and harder for others. On the average, I don't believe there's much difference. One big benefit, however, is that the Canadian system is run efficiently enough that nobody has to wait years to get permament residency.

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You can get a green card almost right away, I believe, which secures you pretty much the same rights as a full-fledged citizen. Next.

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Wrong. This is a widely held assumption that's very naive.

Depending on what country you're coming from, whether or not you have certain types of family members in the US, and whether or not the INS feels you would be beneficial to the economy, getting a green card can take anywhere from 6 months to 20 years. During this time, you are not allowed to work or travel abroad. It's possible to apply for work permission in the interim, but this also takes time and it's not guaranteed. Many people don't have enough savings to support themselves with no work during the processng time.

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Can you still get a green card by marrying a U.S. citizen? I'd consider changing that as well (though it's not that big a deal). If you marry a Canadian citizen, you still have to jump through hoops to become a citizen there.

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Yes, you can get a green card by marrying a US citizen. I know all about this - in two or three years, this is what I get to experience:

http://www.banterist.com/archivefiles/000055.html

Not that I can't deal with it, but it's not something I'm looking forward to. Read that and you'll understand the meaning of "jumping through hoops".

And the Canadian procedure? Exactly the same. Except that there's less paperwork, and people generally don't have to wait as long. Another benefit is that the Canadian government recognizes common-law relationships, so you don't even need to be legally married.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Did you miss the part of my example where I tell you that my father left school at 13?

He played soccer and drove a truck, that's hardly a good education or an in-demand job.

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I assume your father had a job waiting for him when he went to LA? Whether you're educated or not, having an employer to sponsor you makes the process a lot easier than otherwise. My father got a green card in the late '80s when he got a research job at UC Berkeley, and it didn't take any longer than what you described. Being a good athlete is just as good as being a scientist (see Melf's posts).

Your family was also lucky to immigrate in the '70s, when the INS wasn't nearly as overloaded as they are now.

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According to the INS, legal immigration in 2000 was 849,807, coming mainly from Mexico (173,919), China (45,652), the Philippines (42,474), India (42,096), and Vietnam (26,747). Together, these five countries accounted for 40 percent of all legal immigration.

And there goes your theory that it's harder to get a visa if you are Mexican...

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The point isn't that fewer Mexicans get visas, but that proportionally far more people apply than are let in each year, hence the long wait. The US lets in tons of Mexicans, but for each individual Mexican (or Filipino or Chinese, for that matter) getting a visa is very difficult.

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Originally Posted by Calliander

I can't see how that could be true. There are so many lazy, white-trash idiots who would get kicked off welfare and have to go get those jobs.

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It's funny that you mention this, actually. The "Caribbean fruit picker" scenario I mentioned actually made it in the news because of exactly this issue. In '99, the Ontario provincial government was tossing around the idea of welfare reform that would include "workfare": forcing welfare recipients to do crappy but in-demand jobs like fruit picking if they wanted to keep getting their welfare cheques.

The problem was that farmers thought that Welfarians made shitty workers. Nobody wanted to hire them, even though the government was prepared to subsidize their wages and the farmers would have had to pay them next to nothing. It costs them more to hire migrant workers than locals, because they have to cover their airfare and living expenses in addition to paying them minimum wage. But, because local labour is impossible to find, and migrant workers do much better work, it's worth it to hire them.

Here's a good link:
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSFeatures9909/26_workfare.html

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Which we need to prevent.

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There is no need to prevent it. If there are not enough Americans to fill the available jobs, and there are no illegal immigrants to do the work, then legally importing workers just makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Master

People from other countries keep this country afloat.

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

"The point isn't that fewer Mexicans get visas, but that proportionally far more people apply than are let in each year, hence the long wait. The US lets in tons of Mexicans, but for each individual Mexican (or Filipino or Chinese, for that matter) getting a visa is very difficult."

Yes, because the demand for unskilled/uneducated labor isn't as great as the number of unskilled workers.

It isn't their right to come illegally into this country because they cannot get a visa/etc and the 4.5 million illegal mexican immigrants (as well as the other 3.5-4.5 million from wherever) should get the hell back across the border or back on the boat.