Illegal Immigration

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Originally Posted by Gohron

After catching up on this thread I'm definately siding with Dolemite in his arguments with Violently Happy.

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Of course you do. The girl's irrational.

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And I don't mean to be racist VH but citizens of this country have a good reason to be "stereotypical" as it was recently reported that 89% of Hispanics in this country were on welfare.

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89%...? Where did you get this figure? I find that really hard to believe...


Here's an interesting read on how illegal aliens manage to rip off the system, especially when they have children here (it's a .pdf file, so you need Adobe Acrobat Reader to view it)...

http://www.conginst.org/resultsact/PDF/HE98030.PDF

Yea I dont believe that for a fucking minute.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Of course you do. The girl's irrational.


89%...? Where did you get this figure? I find that really hard to believe...

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I think it was a CNN article, I'll look for it, the articles main purpose was pointing out the fact that Hispanics are the new "majority" in this country as they made up 51% of the population (which I don't really know if it's true...), lemme see if I can look it up though.

I know that Hispanics are becoming the largest minority group in the U.S. (or might be already), but I can't believe that only 11% aren't on welfare.

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Originally Posted by Gymkata

I agree that they shouldnt have had kids in the first place. However what recource is there if they are already in the situation?
Like I said before, If you had messed up and had kids when you couldnt afford em and you had to do anything to feed em, wouldnt you go all illegal and work in America to help em? If it was your situation you would do it.

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Nope.

Gym, you go out and help those poor people by sheltering them and feeding them.

Let me know if that mends your bleeding heart.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Gym, you go out and help those poor people by sheltering them and feeding them.

Let me know if that mends your bleeding heart.

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Hehe. If I had a whole lotta cash, I'd do that.

But I don't! So screw 'em!

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

MVS's story shows that, if you do what it takes, you can become a citizen or at least get a green card and be here legally and support yourself.

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It's alot easier to immigrate from Europe than it is to immigrate from Mexico. Immigrants with a good education and in demand job skills are much more likely to be accepted, and you're more likely to be accepted if you come from a country where not a lot of people immigrate to the US. More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland.

So MVS's example probably isn't the best.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

I know that Hispanics are becoming the largest minority group in the U.S. (or might be already), but I can't believe that only 11% aren't on welfare.

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I know. I would have thought that percentage would have been lower.

Are you sure it wasn't 1.1%?

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Originally Posted by Melf

I doubt the demand for teachers is low anywhere. Teaching is akin to nursing, where there are never enough to go around. The fact that more respect and wealth is heaped upon spoiled adults playing children's games for millions is not only insulting, it's one of the things most wrong with our society today.

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I'm glad you don't teach economics. The "spoiled adults playing children's games FOR MILLIONS" generate loads and loads of money, because people like watching sports.

We could get rid of free agency, if that'd make you happy - then you'd have players like Alex Rodriguez making $125k a year, while Tom Hicks, the owner, making hundreds of millions of dolllars a year. Because of the free market, a guy like Alex Rodriguez has a shot at making a ton of money, and taking some cash out of the hands of the white guys who own the sports teams.

The fact that players have absurd amounts of money is the sort of liberal pro-capitalist success story that we should all celebrate as being distinctly, terrifically American.

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There are things I would personally change, such as making any person that serves in the military for 4 years an instant citizen

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Yeah, I've been for this for a while - it's a great idea. We allow illegal citizens to enter the military and serve for four years. When they're done, they have citizenship - but they also know how to speak English and have marketable skills. The government would have to spend less on incentives to get people into the military, which would save us money.

(and then, in the process, we can finish turning America into Rome 2000. pax imperium, baby.)

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Originally Posted by Stone

I'm glad you don't teach economics. The "spoiled adults playing children's games FOR MILLIONS" generate loads and loads of money, because people like watching sports.

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Remember this the next time you pay $5 for a hot dog at a game or $30 for an official jersey. :p

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

It's alot easier to immigrate from Europe than it is to immigrate from Mexico. Immigrants with a good education and in demand job skills are much more likely to be accepted, and you're more likely to be accepted if you come from a country where not a lot of people immigrate to the US. More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland.

So MVS's example probably isn't the best.

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True, but it makes the most sense. It's like that everywhere you go, in all aspects of life. If you were running a company would you want an unskilled, uneducated worker that couldn't even speak English? Probably not. Not saying that all Mexicans that try to immigrate here fit that description (could be anyone from any country), but the appeal of wanting the best and weeding out the undesirables is universal.

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Originally Posted by Stone

The fact that players have absurd amounts of money is the sort of liberal pro-capitalist success story that we should all celebrate as being distinctly, terrifically American.

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Exactly.

This is a rough analogy, but I told someone in one of the threads that piracy isn't the reason that games cost $49.99, the consumers are.

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Originally Posted by gameoverDude

Companies who pay immigrants those subminimum wages should be fined heavily.

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Funny thing is I was listening to Talk Radio KABC this evening and heard something interesting. There was a study done on companies hiring illegal immigrants. They found about 200,000 doing this; there is a federal fine of $10,000 for any business following this practice.

Out of the 200,000 companies breaking federal law, guess how many were actually fined?

13.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Funny thing is I was listening to Talk Radio KABC this evening and heard something interesting. There was a study done on companies hiring illegal immigrants. They found about 200,000 doing this; there is a federal fine of $10,000 for any business following this practice.

Out of the 200,000 companies breaking federal law, guess how many were actually fined?

13.

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It's a likely guess most of the companies have business relations or are of some importance to our work economy, so they've been crossed off the list.

Those 13 didn't bribe enough.

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

It's alot easier to immigrate from Europe than it is to immigrate from Mexico. Immigrants with a good education and in demand job skills are much more likely to be accepted, and you're more likely to be accepted if you come from a country where not a lot of people immigrate to the US. More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland.

So MVS's example probably isn't the best.

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Did you miss the part of my example where I tell you that my father left school at 13?

He played soccer and drove a truck, that's hardly a good education or an in-demand job.

According to the INS, legal immigration in 2000 was 849,807, coming mainly from Mexico (173,919), China (45,652), the Philippines (42,474), India (42,096), and Vietnam (26,747). Together, these five countries accounted for 40 percent of all legal immigration.

And there goes your theory that it's harder to get a visa if you are Mexican...

"Illegal or unauthorized immigrants" enter the US by avoiding official inspection, pass through inspection with fraudulent documents, enter legally but overstay the terms of their temporary visas, or somehow violate other terms of their visa. Under IRCA in 1986, roughly 2.7 million unauthorized migrants were legalized. While it is notoriously difficult to estimate the undocumented population, the US Census Bureau and most independent analysts place the figure at somewhere between 8 and 9 million in 2001, estimating growth of around 500,000 each year. Mexico remains the leading country of origin, claiming nearly half of the total, with several Central American and European countries also strongly represented.

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Originally Posted by voltz

It's a likely guess most of the companies have business relations or are of some importance to our work economy, so they've been crossed off the list.

Those 13 didn't bribe enough.

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Oh, holy hell.

The reason why is because we have these federal laws in place, and then don't enforce them. Why? Because it isn't viewed as tolerant, or nice, or PC, or whatever.

Like 199,987 companies just shelled out money, the feds turn a blind eye, and there's no 'blow the lid off this' article in the press? Suuuuuure.

It's more likely that the govt. makes its own rules, and then ignores them for their own merit. Afterall, you wouldn't want to be in politics and piss off any potential voting blocks, would you?

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Hey, as it's been pointed out it's FAR harder to become a Canadian citizen. I don't think we need to make it easier to become a citizen here. I mean, what exactly do you think should be changed?

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Where do you get this assumption from? The process of becoming a Canadian citizen is almost identical to becoming a US citizen, except you only need to live there for 4 years instead of 5. It is not more difficult than the US process.

As far as general immigration goes, the system is set up slightly differently, so it is easier for some people to enter Canada than the US, and harder for others. On the average, I don't believe there's much difference. One big benefit, however, is that the Canadian system is run efficiently enough that nobody has to wait years to get permament residency.

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You can get a green card almost right away, I believe, which secures you pretty much the same rights as a full-fledged citizen. Next.

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Wrong. This is a widely held assumption that's very naive.

Depending on what country you're coming from, whether or not you have certain types of family members in the US, and whether or not the INS feels you would be beneficial to the economy, getting a green card can take anywhere from 6 months to 20 years. During this time, you are not allowed to work or travel abroad. It's possible to apply for work permission in the interim, but this also takes time and it's not guaranteed. Many people don't have enough savings to support themselves with no work during the processng time.

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Can you still get a green card by marrying a U.S. citizen? I'd consider changing that as well (though it's not that big a deal). If you marry a Canadian citizen, you still have to jump through hoops to become a citizen there.

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Yes, you can get a green card by marrying a US citizen. I know all about this - in two or three years, this is what I get to experience:

http://www.banterist.com/archivefiles/000055.html

Not that I can't deal with it, but it's not something I'm looking forward to. Read that and you'll understand the meaning of "jumping through hoops".

And the Canadian procedure? Exactly the same. Except that there's less paperwork, and people generally don't have to wait as long. Another benefit is that the Canadian government recognizes common-law relationships, so you don't even need to be legally married.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Did you miss the part of my example where I tell you that my father left school at 13?

He played soccer and drove a truck, that's hardly a good education or an in-demand job.

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I assume your father had a job waiting for him when he went to LA? Whether you're educated or not, having an employer to sponsor you makes the process a lot easier than otherwise. My father got a green card in the late '80s when he got a research job at UC Berkeley, and it didn't take any longer than what you described. Being a good athlete is just as good as being a scientist (see Melf's posts).

Your family was also lucky to immigrate in the '70s, when the INS wasn't nearly as overloaded as they are now.

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According to the INS, legal immigration in 2000 was 849,807, coming mainly from Mexico (173,919), China (45,652), the Philippines (42,474), India (42,096), and Vietnam (26,747). Together, these five countries accounted for 40 percent of all legal immigration.

And there goes your theory that it's harder to get a visa if you are Mexican...

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The point isn't that fewer Mexicans get visas, but that proportionally far more people apply than are let in each year, hence the long wait. The US lets in tons of Mexicans, but for each individual Mexican (or Filipino or Chinese, for that matter) getting a visa is very difficult.

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Originally Posted by Calliander

I can't see how that could be true. There are so many lazy, white-trash idiots who would get kicked off welfare and have to go get those jobs.

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It's funny that you mention this, actually. The "Caribbean fruit picker" scenario I mentioned actually made it in the news because of exactly this issue. In '99, the Ontario provincial government was tossing around the idea of welfare reform that would include "workfare": forcing welfare recipients to do crappy but in-demand jobs like fruit picking if they wanted to keep getting their welfare cheques.

The problem was that farmers thought that Welfarians made shitty workers. Nobody wanted to hire them, even though the government was prepared to subsidize their wages and the farmers would have had to pay them next to nothing. It costs them more to hire migrant workers than locals, because they have to cover their airfare and living expenses in addition to paying them minimum wage. But, because local labour is impossible to find, and migrant workers do much better work, it's worth it to hire them.

Here's a good link:
http://www.canoe.ca/CNEWSFeatures9909/26_workfare.html

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Which we need to prevent.

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There is no need to prevent it. If there are not enough Americans to fill the available jobs, and there are no illegal immigrants to do the work, then legally importing workers just makes sense.

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Originally Posted by Master

People from other countries keep this country afloat.

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:lol: :lol: :lol:

"The point isn't that fewer Mexicans get visas, but that proportionally far more people apply than are let in each year, hence the long wait. The US lets in tons of Mexicans, but for each individual Mexican (or Filipino or Chinese, for that matter) getting a visa is very difficult."

Yes, because the demand for unskilled/uneducated labor isn't as great as the number of unskilled workers.

It isn't their right to come illegally into this country because they cannot get a visa/etc and the 4.5 million illegal mexican immigrants (as well as the other 3.5-4.5 million from wherever) should get the hell back across the border or back on the boat.

omg youre so insensitive!

I know, I would fit in much better if I didn't believe in personal responsability and felt that criminals get the shit end of the stick through no fault of their own.

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Originally Posted by MVS

There are things I would personally change, such as making any person that serves in the military for 4 years an instant citizen. Anyone that does that deserves it.

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Well, serving in the military does speed things up as far as applying for citizenship...

http://usmilitary.about.com/library/.../aa062602a.htm

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Originally Posted by Matt

Where do you get this assumption from?

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It was pointed out somewhere in this thread...I don't feel like looking for it, and I didn't feel like searching around the net trying to confirm it, mainly since I don't care about becoming a Canadian citizen.

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Originally Posted by Matt

Wrong. This is a widely held assumption that's very naive.

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I said you can get a green card right away. It doesn't mean you will, if you don't fit certain descriptions. I should have elabroated on that point, but you saved me the trouble. :)

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Originally Posted by MVS

According to the INS, legal immigration in 2000 was 849,807, coming mainly from Mexico (173,919), China (45,652), the Philippines (42,474), India (42,096), and Vietnam (26,747). Together, these five countries accounted for 40 percent of all legal immigration.

And there goes your theory that it's harder to get a visa if you are Mexican...

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Matt alredy covered this and you brushed it off, but:

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland.

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Thanks, but my theory isn't going anywhere. Also:

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There are things I would personally change, such as making any person that serves in the military for 4 years an instant citizen.

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Not a bad idea, but I don't think packing the military full of people who aren't US citizens is necessarily the way to go.

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Originally Posted by Calliander

Nope.

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"I'd stay in my shit-hole, crime ridden, poverty stricken country in my one room shack with my starving kids and no hope for a better life, and I'd like it, dammit! It's just the moral thing to do."

"More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland."

Because there are more uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking people from Mexico trying to get in to the U.S. than any of those other nations. Mexico is a Third-World nation, unlike Europen countries like Scotland. Plus, Mexico is right there, so it's easy to travel to the U.S. in an attempt to immigrate, unlike people coming from other continents, which can be quite expensive. Even though many Mexicans got turned down in 2000, 173,919 still managed to immigrate to the U.S., which is 128,267 more people than the next closest nation. They're doing fine. Many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from Scotland, but I'm sure the number of people that try to immigrate here from countries other than Mexico is vastly disproportionate to the number of Mexicans that try to immigrate. That's why Hispanics are now our largest minority. If we let in every Mexican that wanted to be an American citizen the country would be empty by now.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Mexico is a Third-World nation, unlike Europen countries like Scotland.

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Dude, as much as William Wallace may have wanted it, Scotland isn't a country.

You're totally right on everything else though.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Dude, as much as William Wallace may have wanted it, Scotland isn't a country.

You're totally right on everything else though.

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Scotland is one of four constituent nations which form the United Kingdom. It's still considered a nation however, despite being part of the U.K.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Scotland is one of four constituent nations which form the United Kingdom. It's still considered a nation however, despite being part of the U.K.

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You win.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Because there are more uneducated, unskilled, non-English speaking people from Mexico trying to get in to the U.S. than any of those other nations. Mexico is a Third-World nation, unlike Europen countries like Scotland.

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I know. I covered that in my earlier post as well. I was just saying that using MVS's dad as an example of how easy it is for Mexicans to immigrate to the US doesn't really work.

Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by MVS

I know, I would fit in much better if I didn't believe in personal responsability and felt that criminals get the shit end of the stick through no fault of their own.

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Sig-worthy

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

"I'd stay in my shit-hole, crime ridden, poverty stricken country in my one room shack with my starving kids and no hope for a better life, and I'd like it, dammit! It's just the moral thing to do."

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Right, because it's no better than what I'll get in America if I go illegally. I got myself into the situation because I'm stupid. I can't expect other people to take care of my crap for me.

If other people want to, that's fine, but they don't.

Originally Posted by Saint of Killers
More people immigrate to the US from Mexico than any other country, but many many more people try and fail to immigrate from Mexico than try and fail to immigrate from, say, Scotland.

Yes, because the demand for unskilled/uneducated labor isn't as great as the number of unskilled workers.

It isn't their right to come illegally into this country because they cannot get a visa/etc and the 4.5 million illegal mexican immigrants (as well as the other 3.5-4.5 million from wherever) should get the hell back across the border or back on the boat.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Yes, because the demand for unskilled/uneducated labor isn't as great as the number of unskilled workers.

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That brings up an interesting point. I wonder how the demand for legal immigrant unskilled/uneducated labor would increase if there were no illegal immigrants taking the jobs. If all the illegals that are working the jobs now were deported, there'd be a huge hole to fill which I would, without question, prefer to be filled by legal immigrant workers or American citizens.

Considering this, arguing that Americans wouldn't fill the jobs so why not leave the immigrants there is ridiculous. If the jobs had to be filled by legal workers (immigrant or American citizens) then they'd have to be at least minimum wage. If we didn't have enough workers already in the country to fill those jobs then we could let more in legally. Perhaps the same people that were willing to work the jobs for shit money could do it for minimum wage, and pay taxes like the rest of us.

http://www.zwire.com/site/news.cfm?n...d=506421&rfi=6

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Five homeless men indicted in Flushing Meadows rape

The five homeless men accused of brutally raping a woman in a shantytown on the edge of Flushing Meadows Corona Park were indicted nearly five months after their arrest, the Queens district attorney announced May 21.

In the 18-count indictment, the five men, who have been in jail since the attack, were each charged with rape, sodomy, robbery, kidnapping, assault and criminal possession of stolen property.

"The defendants have been charged with acting together as a gang and surrounding and attacking a couple, viciously beating them, robbing them of money and jewelry, holding the woman captive, sexually assaulting her for almost three hours and telling her that they would have to kill her because she could identify them," said Queens District Attorney Richard Brown.

On the night of Dec. 19, 2002, the men attacked a 42-year-old woman and her 38-year-old male friend near the Passerral Building in Flushing Meadows, the district attorney said.

After knocking the friend unconscious, the men dragged the woman to the shantytown where they lived, located in a nearby field of brush next to the Long Island Rail Road tracks, the district attorney said.

For almost three hours, the men repeatedly raped the woman, who was saved only when a canine unit discovered them, the district attorney said. The police had been alerted by her friend after he regained consciousness.

Luis Carmona, 20; Victor Cruz, 22; Jose Hernandez, 18; Armando Juvenal, 20 and Carlos Rodriguez, 22, are the defendants in the case.

Hernandez, Rodriguez and Cruz are natives of Mexico, while the fourth man, Juvenal, is from Ecuador, law enforcement sources said. Law enforcement sources did not have information on the country of birth of Carmona, the only one of the five who authorities believe entered the country legally.

The Dec. 19 attack caused an uproar that has caught the attention of the federal government.

In February, U.S. Rep. John Hostettler (R-Ind.), chairman of the House's subcommittee on immigration and border security, held a hearing into the city's policy towards illegal immigrants.

In particular, the subcommittee examined the city's sanctuary policy, the practice of not telling federal authorities of the arrests of people with immigration violations. The policy, adopted under Mayor Edward Koch, was declared illegal in 1996.

Four of the five men arrested in connection with the Flushing Meadows rape entered the country illegally, and three of those men had criminal records, sources said.

The Flushing Meadows case sparked Hostettler's hearing.

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Originally Posted by Hero

Funny thing is I was listening to Talk Radio KABC this evening and heard something interesting. There was a study done on companies hiring illegal immigrants. They found about 200,000 doing this; there is a federal fine of $10,000 for any business following this practice.

Out of the 200,000 companies breaking federal law, guess how many were actually fined?

13.

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What a pitiful enforcement record. The fine of $10,000 is a wristslap in my opinion, since that's like a penny to most companies. It should be raised to $5,000,000 so those who get caught feel the sting and become examples.

They need to enforce it- the hell with tolerance or PCism.

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Originally Posted by Icepick

omg youre so insensitive!

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Well, I guess I am also. ;) I hear ya, MVS- they've got to go back. Tough shit for them if they don't do it the right way.

Did she go back to the motherland?

I think that illegals are getting a mixed-message in their homeland about work here. According to a book I'm reading, Fast Food Nation, IBP, one of the major beef processing corporations, both runs ads in Mexico guaranteeing jobs for their company in the US. These corporations oftentimes hire a bus to go down to the Mex/US border to pick up illegals, and then bus them up to their plants in places like Colorado. All is well until they lose out on their job, which is typically 3 months.

A major reason why these labor laws aren't enforced: The politicians, who say they are heavily against immigration, are also the ones getting the funding for their parties and themselves from the corporations violating the laws. A bit of a double-edged sword, eh?

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Originally Posted by Matt

Well, you probably know more than I do, then. My impression of how difficult it is to be a legal Mexican immigrant comes from reading recent news articles, which I had links to but lost when my browser crashed a little while ago. I don't have time to dig them up again.



I know very little about England. However, I spent nearly all my life in Canada prior to coming here, so I like to think I know plenty about the situation there. Some points, off the top of my head:

- Open borders between EU countries makes it easy for illegal immigrants to move around Europe. More so than the US and Canada.

- Canada has a very well developed "welfare state" - much more than the US.

- It's really easy to find illegal work in Canada (more so than in the US, in my experience). I worked two under-the-table jobs when I lived there, and my girlfriend (who is American and didn't have a work permit) was able to find cash work within a week.

- Until recently (they may have fixed it - not sure), the Canadian refugee system was extremely easy to take advantage of. It's estimated that half of all refugee applicants who were turned down never got deported. Also, it's very easy for people from several countries (including Mexico) to enter without a visa and never leave.

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- I have a friend that wants to come to Canada and maybe settle here permenantly. He is from the US and is a little worried. What kinds of jobs were you able to find under the table and how should he proceed about looking for these jobs?

DEY TURK EUR JERBS!

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

That brings up an interesting point. I wonder how the demand for legal immigrant unskilled/uneducated labor would increase if there were no illegal immigrants taking the jobs. If all the illegals that are working the jobs now were deported, there'd be a huge hole to fill which I would, without question, prefer to be filled by legal immigrant workers or American citizens.

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You've just described Bush's proposed guest worker program.

DURK UR DURR!

Why is this thread alive again?

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Here on Long Island, NY, there's a town called Farmingville. There's a massive population of illegal immigrants there who moved into the area and often stand along commercial thoroughfares waiting for work from landscapers and construction contractors. There's hundreds of them standing there every day. It's bad enough that they aren't rounded up and deported, but now they're trying to pass a bill so that the county (Suffolk, thank god I don't live there) will foot the bill to build a massive complex on the road for the immigrants so that they will have a place to be safe and shower and rest and eat while waiting to get picked up for a job. Citizens are picketing the proposed plan and the immigrant workers in general, but the fact that it's even been proposed (for all I know it might even be approved by now) is fucking insane. And who would be paying for it? That's right, Suffolk County tax dollars. And this will cost millions. Meanwhile, these fucks go out, take American jobs, and of course they don't put their money back into our economy, they send it home to their families. They're takling jobs from Americans because they work for peanuts. This is so nuts. Maybe we should build shelters for drug dealers too.

And of course, Bush's newly proposed immigration reforms don't make it any easier. His plan would open the door to legalization for the estimated 8 million to 12 million undocumented immigrants in the nation, as well as making it far easier to become a citizen to begin with. His view? "The citizenship line, however, is too long, and our current limits on legal immigration are too low. My administration will work with the Congress to increase the annual number of green cards that can lead to citizenship." Wonderful.

Hey, I'm all for immigration, as long as it's a legit, legal process. After all, if there was no immigration, we wouldn't have Governor Arnold. :D I think we allow plenty of people in here, and I respect people who make what can be a scary move to another country and work hard and try to achieve the "American Dream", yadda, yadda. But there's gotta be a limit. With all the shit that's wrong in this country, why is he making an issue out of this? Why is he trying to give illegal aliens so many rights when they're not even citizens? How will this help the country and it's economy?

Jesus, I can't wait until Bush is out of office.

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I honestly didn't read the rest of the thread, but I think that opening our standards of immigration is a good thing. Are YOU going to mow my lawn or pick the oranges I eat? Yeah. Find me an American citizen who would. I dare you. Any way, the more people there are in an area the more jobs there are to sustain them. I am 100% with Bush on this one.

When's the Klan meeting?

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Originally Posted by Revoltor

When's the Klan meeting?

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The 16th. Be there or be square nigga.

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Originally Posted by Tracer

I honestly didn't read the rest of the thread, but I think that opening our standards of immigration is a good thing. Are YOU going to mow my lawn or pick the oranges I eat? Yeah. Find me an American citizen who would. I dare you. Any way, the more people there are in an area the more jobs there are to sustain them. I am 100% with Bush on this one.

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Id do it, IF I GOT PAID WHAT THAT JOB DESERVES. I made this point over and over in this thread. I worked last summer stocking shelves in Shop-Rite night shift for $11 an hour. This is fair. I wish I discovered that job when I was in high school because it paid more than EB. However, if they want to pay me $5.15 or less because some illegal Mexicans will do it, they can go fuck themselves. And this is damaging to the economy.

The salaries for the lawn-mowing and orange-picking jobs arent dictated by the market, theyre dictated by what the employers can pay a bunch of people illegally smuggled into the US (by the employer). Okay, okay, I guess thats part of the market... but it shouldnt be.

Anyway, the opening of immigration is good because itll put these people on the books, and then they can actually earn the salaries they deserve, and not be abused/raped by employers. This will benefit the economy.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Id do it, IF I GOT PAID WHAT THAT JOB DESERVES. I made this point over and over in this thread. I worked last summer stocking shelves in Shop-Rite for $11 an hour. This is fair. I wish I discovered that job when I was in high school because it paid more than EB. However, if they want to pay me $5.15 or less because some illegal Mexicans will do it, they can go fuck themselves. And this is damaging to the economy.

The salaries for the lawn-mowing and orange-picking jobs arent dictated by the market, theyre dictated by what the employers can pay a bunch of people illegally smuggled into the US (by the employer). Okay, okay, I guess thats part of the market... but it shouldnt be.

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I agree that it's expoiltation, but it has been going on for so long. I am forced to wonder if these shite-rate wages are acceptable to these people. If so, if they were legalized (and this is not counting the employers who truely exploit illegal immigrants and pay them virtually nothing, ie below min. wage), then would that change anything? I know there are people who exploit them and pay them less than minimum wage and that hurts everything as a whole so yes I agree with you somewhat.

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Anyway, the opening of immigration is good because itll put these people on the books, and then they can actually earn the salaries they deserve, and not be abused/raped by employers. This will benefit the economy.

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I agree with this, however, I do not belive they'll earn salaries they deserve - they'll earn what they can get with protection under the law (meaning they won't be borderline slaves).[/quote]

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Originally Posted by Tracer

I honestly didn't read the rest of the thread, but I think that opening our standards of immigration is a good thing. Are YOU going to mow my lawn or pick the oranges I eat? Yeah. Find me an American citizen who would. I dare you. Any way, the more people there are in an area the more jobs there are to sustain them. I am 100% with Bush on this one.

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I'd do it. =/ I need work.

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Originally Posted by Tracer

I honestly didn't read the rest of the thread, but I think that opening our standards of immigration is a good thing. Are YOU going to mow my lawn or pick the oranges I eat? Yeah. Find me an American citizen who would. I dare you. Any way, the more people there are in an area the more jobs there are to sustain them. I am 100% with Bush on this one.

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Dude, you should have read the rest of this thread before replying. It's all there.

But did you even completely read the post you quoted above? I take it you agree that American taxpayers should shell out millions of dollars to build a shelter for illegal immigrants (read: criminals) so they have a place to sleep and shower so that they are safe and comfortable while waiting to go work jobs who salaries will more than likely be sent out of country?

The whole point: Yeah, I'm sure that you'd have a hard time finding people to fill these menial jobs, but using that as an excuse to justify illegal behavior that hurts taxpayers is silly. Perhaps if more po' folk on Welfare got their asses up and actually tried to get any job they could this wouldn't be a problem. Like it's been said, if the jobs had to be filled by legal citizens, they would get better pay/benefits/treatment and it would raise the bar for employment overall. Hiring poor illegals as almost slave labor for pennies benefits NO ONE but the employer.

Seriously, read the whole thread. This has all been covered. Over and over and over.

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Are YOU going to mow my lawn or pick the oranges I eat? Yeah.

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I have no need to do menial labor. I have an education and a good paying job. But a lot of people don't.

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Find me an American citizen who would. I dare you.

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If wetbacks weren't driving saleries down to almost nothing, there'd be plenty.

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Originally Posted by Tracer

I honestly didn't read the rest of the thread, but I think that opening our standards of immigration is a good thing. Are YOU going to mow my lawn or pick the oranges I eat? Yeah. Find me an American citizen who would. I dare you. Any way, the more people there are in an area the more jobs there are to sustain them. I am 100% with Bush on this one.

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My brother own and operates a landscaping business. It's just him and another guy. They offer a full range of property care, from lawn mowing, leaf pick up, snowplowing, ect. Whatever, it is you name it, he will do it.
And he makes a lot more money than you would think.

Some slob comes in with his wetbacks and just fucks things up for everyone.

I'm telling you now, the US economy is going to NEED these service jobs in the next 10 - 15 years. And letting Mexicans or whoever do it for table scraps is going to hurt us in the long run.

I love Mexico, but this rampant disreguard for out immigration laws has to stop. I don't blame the Mexican worker, I blame our government for allowing it to happen.

I refuse to believe that the industries using slaves (and that's what this is) can't operate without them.

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Originally Posted by JefmcC

I don't blame the Mexican worker, I blame our government for allowing it to happen.

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IBTN

Shit, look at my first post in this thread that Tracer quoted…right there it tells you of a spot where huge numbers of illegal immigrants hang out every day. Are they rounded up and shipped out by the government? No, they try to get us to buy them a free clubhouse instead. Jesus.

And let's not get started on the "if you're born here, even if your parents are illegals, you're a citizen" bullshit again...

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Melf: because there is an EXTREMELY HIGH DEMAND for good basketball players but an EXTREMELY LOW SUPPLY of them. Simple economics.

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This is true, twisted, but true. Another reason is that sports players are part of the entertainment industry, and anything involved with entertainment is high dollar shit. I think that parents should have to take the money that they would normally spend on taking their kids to sporting events and give that money to the school to be equally distributed amongst the teachers.

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Originally Posted by MVS

When was the US Constitution created?
What are the first 10 ammendments called?
First president?
Who are our Senators/Governor in CA?

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The funny part about these questions is that most Americans can't even answer them.