Has the Unthinkable Happened?

Going into this generation, the common opinion was that Nintendo had a large advantage in first and second party developed games. Sony and Microsoft were to be in a competition for a distant second.

Something happened on the way to that place.

Nintendo's first and second party games have not been as good this generation as they have in those past. Mario Sunshine has a down turn for the series. F-Zero and Star Fox got farmed out. Zelda went cell-shaded. The best Miyamoto game of this generation is Pikmin. Pikmin! The best first party game on the GameCube was developed in Texas. That all is very strange, but perhaps not as strange as what happened on the other side of the fence.

Sony's games have taken the biggest leap in quality in a single generation I can recall. Games like SOCOM, Sly Cooper, Ico (for others who love it), and Jak & Daxter have come along and hit me upside my jaded head. The best platformer of this generation came from Sucker Punch, not Miyamoto or Sonic Team. That, on its own, is shocking.

Has Sony supplanted Nintendo as the king of first and second party games?

Yes, they have.

And change your sig, please.

I wouldn't go that far but they sure as hell are more interesting than Nintendo nowadays.

Three years after Nintendo launches their next system, they will be a third party publisher. However they will still push out Gameboy's like nobody's business.

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Originally Posted by sleeveboy

And change your sig, please.

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I am not going to derail this thread by discussing that here. I will respond in the thread in question.

Calling someone an Uncle Tom makes you a racist?

Derailed, nice job.

Doesn't really take a lot these days, does it?

So...ahhh....about Nintendo then...

I think I'll call all white people crackers now.

Then I can be a self-hating racist.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Has Sony supplanted Nintendo as the king of first and second party games?

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I will reply with an emphatic "YES!"

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Zelda went cell-shaded.

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Um, and that's related to it's overall worth as a game how?

Personally, I think it's a big pro. It's one of the best-looking games ever. If you felt it was a bad game, you should have said that instead.

As far as Sony goes... you know, I wasn't compelled to agree initially, but upon thinking about it objectively, yeah, they've been kickin' Nintendo's ass in the 1st party department.

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Originally Posted by Bacon McShig

Um, and that's related to it's overall worth as a game how?

Personally, I think it's a big pro. It's one of the best-looking games ever. If you felt it was a bad game, you should have said that instead.

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Zelda was Nintendo's best effort this generation . . . whose pinnacle was sailing around for freaking hours going fishing for Triforce pieces, rather than dungeons culminating in boss battles leading to Triforce pieces.

The art style in Zelda was astounding. Gannon was the best he's been ever, and I mean that from both a design and personality standpoint. I bought the Zelda box for the miniature Link and Moblin figs and the wonderful art book. But the game was a rediculous half-assed attempt.

There, is that better? ;)

This thread would never have happen if we had ... damn words lack me. Like that ApeXtream console will be. They don't really plan on putting any kind of security on it and you can have an open platform for just developers. Any company can design for it and you wont have crap like Ben Herman responding to your email saying that "Metal Slug 3 dosen't look hopefull with SCEA."

If the above made sence to you, congradulations you just crawled in my head. I can, unfortunatly, not explain it any better.

I don't know where I am.

I enjoyed Wind Waker, but people already pointed out its faults. Making someone sail around an open sea, no matter how cool it looks, is not compelling gameplay. If you had to race, (not as a mini-quest), and fight epic battles (epic meaning not the occassional shark or 3 octopus's) it would have been great. Instead it felt more like a chore. I really wish they had taken the time to add more dungeons in and would've mixed up the franchise a bit.

Wind Waker was good. But it wasn't great.

Mario Kart, on the other hand, is great. Multiplayer's fun and single players fun. I won't argue about its faults, but it definitely provides what I thought of in a next-gen Mario Kart (no it's not a stupid game or whatever witty answer you were thinking of and if you weren't I apologize).

Nintendo has put out some great games, and I think that they just need to go back to taking their time. SFA and F-Zero were amazing games... but people ranked them down for no apparent reasons. (not F-Zero...) Games like Chrystal Chronicles are heralded by reader reviews as amazing and fun but the reviewer somehow felt the need to ignore these aspects. I guess that's more of IGN just being idiotic than anything.

I'm totally rambling here.

Long story short: Nintendo's games are fun. They still hold a light on today's games. I'd much rather play Mario Sunshine than Sly Cooper. This is not saying Sly Cooper sucks, I just enjoy the level of environmental interaction a Mario game gives me. Mario was too hard for the audience it was targetted to.

Cap'n Veg.: I think you and I are actually on the same wavelength here... I was saying that the art style was the last thing to point out in listing the game's deficiencies, no matter where you stood on the game as a whole. He said "Zelda went cell-shaded" like it was the primary argument against it. If he would have said "Zelda turned into a boring sea navigation sim", I wouldn't have said anything.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

Nintendo has put out some great games, and I think that they just need to go back to taking their time. SFA and F-Zero were amazing games... but people ranked them down for no apparent reasons. (not F-Zero...) Games like Chrystal Chronicles are heralded by reader reviews as amazing and fun but the reviewer somehow felt the need to ignore these aspects. I guess that's more of IGN just being idiotic than anything.

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I am not sure what your getting at? F-Zero and Crystal Cron. were not developed by Nintendo. Also, I know I will feel like an idiot, but SFA stands for? All that comes to mind is Street Fighter Alpha and I cannot figure it out.

EDIT: Starfox Adventure... ohh I got it. Anyways IIRC that was not developed by Nintendo either.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

Long story short: Nintendo's games are fun. They still hold a light on today's games. I'd much rather play Mario Sunshine than Sly Cooper. This is not saying Sly Cooper sucks, I just enjoy the level of environmental interaction a Mario game gives me. Mario was too hard for the audience it was targetted to.

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Let's say that Big N games USED TO BE fun. Sunshine was too much of repeat of Mario 64(which wasnt all that great either), to be heralded great. If fans liked it, good for them, but I found Sly Cooper and R&C take platforming genre to higher level, than simple remaking of 64 game with tropical theme, and water cannon thrown in.

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Originally Posted by Bacon McShig

Um, and that's related to it's overall worth as a game how?

Personally, I think it's a big pro. It's one of the best-looking games ever. If you felt it was a bad game, you should have said that instead.

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I was intending to portray change, not necessarily a bad one.

Which higher level is this?

I, personally, enjoy how in a Mario game you can use the enviroment as a tool... bouncing off of the walls and doing aerobatics (i think i just made up that word) to get through for the most part. That's the funnest part for me and why Mario is so much better.

I like Ratchet and Clank, but you really do just jump from platform to platform and do exactly what the devs laid out for you. They're fun and good games, but I wish Mario would get some competition in the aerobatics area.

I say aerobatics because gymnastics sounds gay

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

I am not sure what your getting at? F-Zero and Crystal Cron. were not developed by Nintendo. Also, I know I will feel like an idiot, but SFA stands for? All that comes to mind is Street Fighter Alpha and I cannot figure it out.

EDIT: Starfox Adventure... ohh I got it. Anyways IIRC that was not developed by Nintendo either.

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That's the point though. Why would Nintendo farm out its key franchises? F-Zero going to Sega was one thing, but giving anything to Rare is a mistake. Yes, I include DK in the above blanket statement.

If Nintendo didn't rely so heavily on it's franchises I have the feeling that it would've put out the best games this gen. I can understand the logic behind Mario and Zelda sequels, but I'd trade a number of titles for something original like Pikmin.

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I was intending to portray change, not necessarily a bad one.

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Ah. Consider my rebuttal cheerfully withdrawn.

If F-Zero wasn't so god damn hard, it would have been the best racer this generation.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Has Sony supplanted Nintendo as the king of first and second party games?

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I don't think so, Sky Gunner alone doesn't beat Nintendo and nothing (excluding Sly Cooper, which I still haven't played and therefor can't say either way... but HIGHLY doubt) this generation beats Metroid Prime. The only game that comes close is KOTOR.

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The best platformer of this generation came from Sucker Punch, not Miyamoto or Sonic Team.

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HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- *thump*

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Why would Nintendo farm out its key franchises?

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To see how other companies would handle games they've been making for the last 10-15 years or whatever. Capcom got Zelda and made two inter-linking games which took the standard formula and gave it an interesting twist, Sega took F-Zero and produced arguably the best version so far, and we have yet to see what Namco will do with a new Star Fox. Rare was king of the sub-standard platformer, I have no idea why Nintendo kept giving them stuff.

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Originally Posted by MechDeus

I don't think so, Sky Gunner alone doesn't beat Nintendo and nothing (excluding Sly Cooper, which I still haven't played and therefor can't say either way... but HIGHLY doubt) this generation beats Metroid Prime. The only game that comes close is KOTOR.HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA- *thump*To see how other companies would handle games they've been making for the last 10-15 years or whatever. Capcom got Zelda and made two inter-linking games which took the standard formula and gave it an interesting twist, Sega took F-Zero and produced arguably the best version so far, and we have yet to see what Namco will do with a new Star Fox. Rare was king of the sub-standard platformer, I have no idea why Nintendo kept giving them stuff.

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Mech, Metroid Prime and SSBM were the only 1st party games that N released in past few years, that made Cube stand out. Not Mario or Zelda.
Those games in platoformer/adventure categories were presented much better elsewhere.

While Nintendo has gone downhill compared to previous generations, I do think they have released a lot more good stuff than Sony. Sony's stuff gets way too much praise. Almost all my PS2 games are third-party.

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

If F-Zero wasn't so god damn hard, it would have been the best racer this generation.

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It may be the best F-Zero title yet, but best racer this gen? Have you played PGR2? I am of course assuming you are lumping all racing title together, including auto-type racing.

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Originally Posted by Despair

Mech, Metroid Prime and SSBM were the only 1st party games that N released in past few years, that made Cube stand out. Not Mario or Zelda.
Those games in platoformer/adventure categories were presented much better elsewhere.

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Metroid Prime was farmed out too. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Despair

Mech, Metroid Prime and SSBM were the only 1st party games that N released in past few years, that made Cube stand out. Not Mario or Zelda.

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And? Ico and Sky Gunner are Sony's best and Ico is 50% presentation, 25% puzzles, 25% stupid crappy fighting. Not exactly AAA material. Sky Gunner is incredible, although it really needed to be on the Xbox or GC or any system that could actually run it.

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Those games in platoformer/adventure categories were presented much better elsewhere.

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Shame this is about Sony and there's nothing in their lineup that competes at all.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

Sony's stuff gets way too much praise. Almost all my PS2 games are third-party.

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ICO, Sly and R&C outside of places like TNL, don't get nearly the respect they deserve.

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

If F-Zero wasn't so god damn hard, it would have been the best racer this generation.

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I love it exactly because of this. The maddening difficulty just adds to the fun. Flying across the finish line while your craft is about to explode (if it didnt explode while doing so) is so thrilling and rewarding! I've always loved the atmosphere of each F-Zero game as well. Even those tiny backgrounds in the original just give the game so much personality, to me anyway.

It's only that hard because you're not killing enough. Just ONE good hit kills. You don't even have to go for 1st, 2nd and 3rd will work, too, if you kill enough.

Now, Story Mode, THAT is hard on Very Hard.

Didn't a Nintendo team co-develop F-Zero AX/GX with the Sega team?

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Originally Posted by Mzo

Now, Story Mode, THAT is hard on Very Hard.

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Yea, this is what I meant. I'll never unlock the AX racers, EVER.

Deraling posts deleted. Be warned, derailing threads just for the sake of it is against board policy. Please avoid doing so in the future.

And yes, Sony is a great first party publisher now, and you left out the Gran Turismo series. Also, Microsoft is getting better. They have just completed what I deem their "growing stage" that Sony also had at first, and they are poised to really make a big impact.

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

Yea, this is what I meant. I'll never unlock the AX racers, EVER.

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It's so weird how you can sit there trying for a very long time and never win, but stop playing it for a week and then try it again thinking "Yeah right" and all of a sudden you win. Its happened to me a couple of times. I guess this happens with a lot of games. I kick ass at Ridge Racer if I'm talking on the phone and not paying attention.

what's more annoying is the fact that the placeholders for the threads are still there. in the future, why not simply just physically remove them from the thread.

I was somewhat impressed by metroid's visual style, but they cept citing problems going into 3rd person and made it play horrible with one stick for movement. I think the problem was in their head, because if they were successful bringing zelda to 3D with it's gameplay intact, they shouldn't have had any trouble doing the same with this.

Also, they're so busy worring about the next system (gamecube's successor, gameboy DS) that it's going to cause problems in their focus over good gaming development. I'm not so worried about having another system on my hands, I just want something good to play it on and they should be thinking the same, but all they keep releasing is kiddie crap.

And Miyamoto seems to have been overrating himself ever since he left being a direct programmer and started heading team development. If he's gonna make a new mario game, either look at what treasure did for wario (short but superior), or go back to playing super mario bros. 3 for a few months until he gets his old sense of style back, because right now he's more into throwing around ideas rather then going through and through in terms of gameplay like he used to.

I've never been a fan of Nintendo games, so their fall means little to me... but I am pleasantly surprised to see how far Sony has had come in such a short period of time. They are putting out a shocking amount of quality games.

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Originally Posted by bahn

what's more annoying is the fact that the placeholders for the threads are still there. in the future, why not simply just physically remove them from the thread.

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But then us awesome folk can't read them!

Oh and about Nintendo's first party titles: I'd say they've pretty much degraded over the years, too. The world ain't stopping for anyone, even Nintendo.

I <3 Nintendo

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Originally Posted by voltz

I was somewhat impressed by metroid's visual style, but they cept citing problems going into 3rd person and made it play horrible with one stick for movement.

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When I played Metroid on a demo at an EB I hated it... when I sat down and played it through like I am now, I couldn't imagine it any other way. The control scheme is really not bad at all.

i dont think their quality has degraded over the years, i just think their drive to make stuff better has. its the same recycled shit over and over with better graphics. as good as their games can be if it's the same time and time again with better wrapping people become disenchanted.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Sony's games have taken the biggest leap in quality in a single generation I can recall. Games like SOCOM, Sly Cooper, Ico (for others who love it), and Jak & Daxter have come along and hit me upside my jaded head. The best platformer of this generation came from Sucker Punch, not Miyamoto or Sonic Team. That, on its own, is shocking.

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Ummm... if you dipshits want to claim that Metroid Prime and Starfox were "farmed out" then you have to say that Sly Cooper and Jak & Daxter were as well... since they were made by 2nd party Sony developers.

If you want to include both first and second party games they you have to include Metroid Prime, Starfox and everything that Nintendo second parties have done as well.

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

Metroid Prime was farmed out too. Sorry.

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This is just a stupid comment. Having one of your own 2nd parties make a title does not imply farming out... F-Zero was farmed out, it was done by another company entirely. Metroid Prime was not.

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

I am not sure what your getting at? F-Zero and Crystal Cron. were not developed by Nintendo. Also, I know I will feel like an idiot, but SFA stands for? All that comes to mind is Street Fighter Alpha and I cannot figure it out.

EDIT: Starfox Adventure... ohh I got it. Anyways IIRC that was not developed by Nintendo either.

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Likewise, half the games mentioned it this thread weren't developed by Sony either. Notably SOCOM (Zipper), Sly Cooper (Sucker Punch), Rachet & Clank (Insomniac) and Sky Gunner (Polys) were contracted to outside developers.

All that said, while I'd take Sony's first party PS2 portfolio over Nintendo's 1st party GC lineup, I can't honestly saw they're the better 1st party developer. Mainly because Nintendo 1st party GBA lineup slaughters everything out there. :)

If we're going to talk first party only then we can only include games developed by SCE_... which in general isn't much.

In fact... what exactly has Sony done worth a shit 1st party this generation besides ICO? It looks to me like almost everything they do is 2nd party.

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

Metroid Prime was farmed out too. Sorry.

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Nope Retro is a first party team. Unless you'd also consider games by later SCEI aquired teams (which would include Jak & GT) as "farmed out"?

No, Retro is 2nd party.

2nd Party = anything not done by an internal development team, but instead by an team that was formerly 3rd Party but was purchased by the company.

Naughty Dog is also 2nd party... I'm not entirely sure about the GT team Polyphonus Digital... did Sony purchase them, or were they developed internally?

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Originally Posted by Andrew

SFA and F-Zero were amazing games...

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SFA is the most tedious game I've ever played. It was like Wind Waker's ocean crawling on land, but slower and a much worse battle system.

Yes, Nintendo sucks, but they're still better as a first party than Sony.

Animal Crossing + Metroid Prime > Ico + any of Sony's generic platformers.

FYI, my intent was to include 2nd party devs in this discussion.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Has Sony supplanted Nintendo as the king of first and second party games?

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No. Most of Sony's games are developed by 3rd party developers like Level 5 or Harmonix.

The only Nintendo published game I can think of that wasn't developed by a Nintendo company was Fzero GX. Oh, and Wario World. Crystal Chronicles tecnically was developed by a Nintendo-owned company.

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Originally Posted by bbobb

No, Retro is 2nd party.

2nd Party = anything not done by an internal development team, but instead by an team that was formerly 3rd Party but was purchased by the company.

Naughty Dog is also 2nd party... I'm not entirely sure about the GT team Polyphonus Digital... did Sony purchase them, or were they developed internally?

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"2nd Party" was a term Nintendo invented to explain the exclusive Rare relationship they started in the mid 1990s. It's just PR. Any company that's majority owned is generally considered a 1st party developer. Retro is 100% owned by Nintendo. Rare is 100% owned by Microsoft. Naughty Dog is 100% owned by Sony. All 3 can be considered 1st party teams.

Polyphony Digital is what evolved of the game R&D division at Sony Music Entertainment after Sony Computer Entertainment took over their game department. They're considered a first party team too, though they were a later aquisition like ND.

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Originally Posted by Rich

SFA is the most tedious game I've ever played. It was like Wind Waker's ocean crawling on land, but slower and a much worse battle system.

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:nod: *hugs the white dragon*:nod:

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Originally Posted by bbobb

No, Retro is 2nd party.

2nd Party = anything not done by an internal development team, but instead by an team that was formerly 3rd Party but was purchased by the company.

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Nintendo owns 100% of Retro. They were never 3rd party.

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Originally Posted by Kinopio

No. Most of Sony's games are developed by 3rd party developers like Level 5 or Harmonix.

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No that's also wrong... they do have quite a few 2nd party games... J&D, Sly Cooper, Ratchet & Clank and so on... in fact I think most of their games are 2nd party... but I'm not willing to bet on it.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

FYI, my intent was to include 2nd party devs in this discussion.

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Then why list SOCOM or Sly Cooper? Both were outsourced to 3rd party (ie: external) teams.

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Originally Posted by jarrod

Then why list SOCOM or Sly Cooper? Both were outsourced to 3rd party (ie: external) teams.

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To the best of my knowledge Sony owns Sucker Punch now... I don't know about SOCOM.

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Originally Posted by bbobb

No that's also wrong... they do have quite a few 2nd party games... J&D, Sly Cooper, Ratchet & Clank and so on... in fact I think most of their games are 2nd party... but I'm not willing to bet on it.

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AFAIK, neither Insomniac or Sucker Punch have any level of Sony investment. They can literally make games for whomever they choose, even Nintendo and Microsoft.

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Originally Posted by Kinopio

Nintendo owns 100% of Retro. They were never 3rd party.

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You know... that might be right... Retro was created by Nintendo not purchased weren't they? So yeah.. if that's correct then Metroid Prime is 1st party.

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Originally Posted by jarrod

AFAIK, neither Insomniac or Sucker Punch have any level of Sony investment. They can literally make games for whomever they choose, even Nintendo and Microsoft.

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Hmmmm... I knew Sucker Punch was seperate in the past... but I thought Sony bought into them. Also I thought Sony put some money into Insomniac as well... but I may be wrong.

When Microsoft is churning out better games than you are, you're in big trouble.

Crimson Skies, Top Spin, Rallisport Challenge, Amped 2 (Nowhere near SSX3, but leagues beyond 1080), Project Gotham Racing 2...Lots of pretty good stuff. I would even take Voodoo Vince over Mario Sunshine based upon personality and it's random, original moments alone. Though to be fair, both got repetitive at almost the same point.

I have enjoyed 3 Nintendo made games in this entire generation. Wario Ware, Pokemon Channel and Metroid Prime. That last one was created by a bunch of Yankee blue jeans in Texas for crying out loud..

Everything else has been nothing but dissapointment or attempts to cash in on child hood memories (The mario advance series..). I forgot who originally said it around here, but I'd like to modify the quote. The releases of _______ by Nintendo should be viewed as acts of terrorism.

They just need to stop and go back to making playing cards or straighten themselves up. It's just sad at this point.

PS: Yes, Sony churns out better stuff than they do too. Does Harmonix count?

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Originally Posted by Sl1p

That last one was created by a bunch of Yankee blue jeans in Texas for crying out loud..

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What the hell is that supposed to mean? You love MS American made games, but god forbid that Nintendo have something made by Americans?

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Originally Posted by Kano On The Phone

Yes, Nintendo sucks, but they're still better as a first party than Sony.

Animal Crossing + Metroid Prime > Ico + any of Sony's generic platformers.

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Yeah, Whatever.

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Originally Posted by Sl1p

or attempts to cash in on child hood memories (The mario advance series..).

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The advance games are targeted to two things: people who have a gba and remember the classics but aren't "hardcore" enough to have their old nes's and games, and the kids who are younger and have never played these games.

We're not really the target audience when it comes to ports of older games.

Yet I bought them all anyway.

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Originally Posted by Sl1p

When Microsoft is churning out better games than you are, you're in big trouble.

Crimson Skies, Top Spin, Rallisport Challenge, Amped 2 (Nowhere near SSX3, but leagues beyond 1080), Project Gotham Racing 2...Lots of pretty good stuff. I would even take Voodoo Vince over Mario Sunshine based upon personality and it's random, original moments alone. Though to be fair, both got repetitive at almost the same point.

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Top Spin (Power & Magic), Rllisport (Dice),PGR2 (Bizarre Creations) and Voodoo Vince (Bleep) were all done by 3rd parties.

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Originally Posted by Sl1p

PS: Yes, Sony churns out better stuff than they do too. Does Harmonix count?

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Not if we're talking about Sony as developer.

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Originally Posted by bbobb

What the hell is that supposed to mean? You love MS American made games, but god forbid that Nintendo have something made by Americans?

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Haha! You totally missed the point you FOOLISH AMERICAN LOLZ~

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We're not really the target audience when it comes to ports of older games.

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Yet I hear about a bunch of TNL'ers buying them anyways..the above is a good example :lol:

Jinkies!

Really though, I'll reiterate that nobody can touch Nintendo's 1st party GBA portfolio overall...

-Advance Wars (Intelligent Systems)
-Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising (Intelligent Systems)
-Densetsu no Stafi (RD1/Tose Software)
-Densetsu no Stafi 2 (RD1/Tose Software)
-Dokodemo Taikyoku: Yakuman Advance (NdCube)
-Domo-Kun no Fushigi Terebi (Suzac)
-EZ-Talk (NdCube)
-F-Zero: Falcon Desetsu (Suzac)
-F-Zero: Maximum Velocity (NdCube)
-Fire Emblem (Intelligent Systems)
-Fire Emblem: Fuuin no Tsurugi (Intelligent Systems)
-Game & Watch Gallery 4 (RD1/Tose Software)
-Hamtaro: Ham Ham Heartbreak (EAD)
-Hamtaro: Rainbow Rescue (Alpha Dream)
-Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land (Hal Labratory)
-Kirby: Kagami no Daimeikyuu (Hal Labratory)
-Koro Koro Puzzle: Happy Panechu! (RD2)
-Kuru Kuru Kururin (EAD/Eighting)
-Kururin Paradise (EAD/Eighting)
-Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past w/ The Four Swords (RD2/Capcom Studio 1)
-Magical Vacation (Brownie Brown)
-Mario and Donkey Kong (NST)
-Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga (Alpha Dream)
-Mario Kart Super Circuit (Intelligent Systems)
-Metroid Fusion (RD1)
-Metroid: Zero Mission (RD1)
-Mother 1+2 (EAD)
-Mother 3 (EAD?)
-Napoleon (EAD/Genki)
-Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire (Game Freak)
-Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green (Game Freak)
-Sakura Momoko no UkiUki Carnival (SPD)
-Super Mario Advance (RD2)
-Super Mario Advance 2: Super Mario World (RD2)
-Super Mario Advance 3: Yoshi's Island (RD2)
-Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3 (RD2)
-Sword of Mana (Brownie Brown/Square Enix Division 8)
-Tomato Adventure (Alpha Dream)
-Wario Land 4 (RD1)
-WarioWare Inc.: Mega MicroGame$ (RD1)

...I'd say Nintendo's lackluster Gamecube output is mainly due to an apparent drop EAD's offerings and focusing on western studios to try a make it up (Retro Studios, Silicon Knights, etc). Meanwhile, teams like Intelligent Systems and RD1 are making some of the best games available right now.... there's more to "Nintendo" than simply EAD. People forget that.

Take out the ports and Sword Of Mana (which was made by Square,not a first party) and you'd be right.

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

Take out the ports and Sword Of Mana (which was made by Square,not a first party) and you'd be right.

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Sword of Mana was co-developed by Brownie Brown and Square Enix Division 8. Brownie Brown is a Nintendo funded start up, composed mainly of former Square employees who worked on the Mana and SaGa games.

And the ports rock! Yoshi's Island is still the best platformer ever made. :)

jarrod, the thread I just made is basically an echo of your post. GBA tops everything.

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Originally Posted by Sl1p

The releases of _______ by Nintendo should be viewed as acts of terrorism.

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T'was me bitching about Double Dash, and I actually like Nintendo.

Nintendo and Sony both release great games, and lucky me, I don't have to choose.

Nintendo still releases a hell of a lot more than Sony (and at least a few of Sony releases are shitty sports games no one plays), so even if you like a quarter of all Nintendo games but everything Sony releases, you still probably like more Nintendo games.

And personally I can't think of a single MS title I like, but to be fair, if I had broadband, that probably wouldn't be the case.

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Originally Posted by Despair

Yeah, Whatever.

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No really - it's a fact.

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Originally Posted by jarrod

Really though, I'll reiterate that nobody can touch Nintendo's 1st party GBA portfolio overall...

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About a third of those are rehashes, and another third aren't coming over.

Sega and SNK are the only first party games I love(d). Now that Sega had gone 3rd party, and the Neo Geo has become (basically) a relic, I don't have any particular love for first party games. In fact, I think Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft all suck. But MS probably suck the most, followed closely by Sony/Nintendo.

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Originally Posted by kingoffighters

Sega and SNK are the only first party games I love(d). Now that Sega had gone 3rd party, and the Neo Geo has become (basically) a relic, I don't have any particular love for first party games.

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It doesn't help any when you have SNK getting most of their titles downloaded off the net thanks to staying with the cart format and people (from these boards in particular) wanted sega dead, reguardless of how great their games are.

These truly are some dark times indeed.

all 3 first party publishers suck lately..

but F-Zero being "farmed out" to AV was the best thing that happened to the series, thank you very much..

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Originally Posted by jarrod

Really though, I'll reiterate that nobody can touch Nintendo's 1st party GBA portfolio overall...

-Advance Wars (Intelligent Systems)
-Advance Wars 2: Black Hole Rising (Intelligent Systems)
-Densetsu no Stafi (RD1/Tose Software)
-Densetsu no Stafi 2 (RD1/Tose Software)
-Dokodemo Taikyoku: Yakuman Advance (NdCube)
-Domo-Kun no Fushigi Terebi (Suzac)
-EZ-Talk (NdCube)
-F-Zero: Falcon Desetsu (Suzac)
-F-Zero: Maximum Velocity (NdCube)
-Fire Emblem (Intelligent Systems)
-Fire Emblem: Fuuin no Tsurugi (Intelligent Systems)
-Game & Watch Gallery 4 (RD1/Tose Software)
-Hamtaro: Ham Ham Heartbreak (EAD)
-Hamtaro: Rainbow Rescue (Alpha Dream)
-Kirby: Nightmare in Dream Land (Hal Labratory)
-Kirby: Kagami no Daimeikyuu (Hal Labratory)
-Koro Koro Puzzle: Happy Panechu! (RD2)
-Kuru Kuru Kururin (EAD/Eighting)
-Kururin Paradise (EAD/Eighting)
-Legend of Zelda: A Link to the Past w/ The Four Swords (RD2/Capcom Studio 1)
-Magical Vacation (Brownie Brown)
-Mario and Donkey Kong (NST)
-Mario and Luigi: Superstar Saga (Alpha Dream)
-Mario Kart Super Circuit (Intelligent Systems)
-Metroid Fusion (RD1)
-Metroid: Zero Mission (RD1)
-Mother 1+2 (EAD)
-Mother 3 (EAD?)
-Napoleon (EAD/Genki)
-Pokemon Ruby/Sapphire (Game Freak)
-Pokemon Fire Red/Leaf Green (Game Freak)
-Sakura Momoko no UkiUki Carnival (SPD)
-Super Mario Advance (RD2)
-Super Mario Advance 2: Super Mario World (RD2)
-Super Mario Advance 3: Yoshi's Island (RD2)
-Super Mario Advance 4: Super Mario Bros. 3 (RD2)
-Sword of Mana (Brownie Brown/Square Enix Division 8)
-Tomato Adventure (Alpha Dream)
-Wario Land 4 (RD1)
-WarioWare Inc.: Mega MicroGame$ (RD1)

...I'd say Nintendo's lackluster Gamecube output is mainly due to an apparent drop EAD's offerings and focusing on western studios to try a make it up (Retro Studios, Silicon Knights, etc). Meanwhile, teams like Intelligent Systems and RD1 are making some of the best games available right now.... there's more to "Nintendo" than simply EAD. People forget that.

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If you ask me, i think the gamecube is in the position its in because of the level of support they're giving the GBA over the cube. It seems like the gba gets the lionshare of their of their attention, while the cube gets the occasional nod. Anyone remember spaceworld 2000 when it seemed like they were more excited about foisting the gba on to third parties than the cube? it seems to biting them in the ass now.

The only thing biting Nintendo in the ass is bags and bags of money.

With dollar signs on the bags.

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Originally Posted by bbobb

If we're going to talk first party only then we can only include games developed by SCE_... which in general isn't much.

In fact... what exactly has Sony done worth a shit 1st party this generation besides ICO? It looks to me like almost everything they do is 2nd party.

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What about Ape Escape 2? I'm pretty sure that series is developed by an internal team.

I think Deep Space, developers of Extermination, may have been an internal team as well. And didn't Sony purchase Whoopee Camp before supposedly desolving it?

What about Mark of Kri? Is San Diego Studios owned by Sony?

And yeah, Ployphony Digital is internal.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Has Sony supplanted Nintendo as the king of first and second party games?

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Sony seems to care more, Nin is living of their past. I agree with you ...Nintendo gets the 9 and lost my business after the SNES (I already recognized the N64 as a Kmart console).

Lordmrw, they probably did that because they knew, realistically, the GBA would do better than the GC in the marketplace.

Both Sony and Nintendo suck in my eyes. Microsoft is good with their Age of the empire/mythology games and Halo.

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Originally Posted by Survival Kid

What about Ape Escape 2? I'm pretty sure that series is developed by an internal team.

I think Deep Space, developers of Extermination, may have been an internal team as well. And didn't Sony purchase Whoopee Camp before supposedly desolving it?

What about Mark of Kri? Is San Diego Studios owned by Sony?

And yeah, Ployphony Digital is internal.

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Ape Escape 2 really wasn't that great though... it wasn't anywhere near as good as the first game... Mark of Kri was excellent though... not sure if that's a 1st party team or not... but I'm prettty sure it is.

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Originally Posted by jarrod

Really though, I'll reiterate that nobody can touch Nintendo's 1st party GBA portfolio overall...

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You're right, but that's about all they got.

And its making them ass loads of money.

If you ask me this whole situation is kind of like when the team in first place starts a losing streak, and then the division becomes up for grabs. Sony or Microsoft haven't really done much more than Nintendo lately (which is actually a damning statement for all).

and jarrod, take out the games that aren't coming out in the US, and take out the games that are rehashes of earlier titles, and you get... Wario Ware. You can add Fire Emblem and Advance Wars because they never came out here before, but I can assure you Advance Wars plays almost exactly like past games in the series. The GBA list isn't nearly as great as so many people make it out to be.

Nintendo is not in some Sega-level situation here, Nintendo does not have any real company collapsing problems. People buy their systems, and Nintendo actually makes money off each Home Console they sell, unlike the others who still pay more to make them then they do sell them.

Diff really put it right, they are in a slump, in a leauge with Three teams.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

The GBA list isn't nearly as great as so many people make it out to be.

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i agree for once and that frightens me.........i think a lot of the GBA gushing is purely nostalgic.

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Originally Posted by burgundy

About a third of those are rehashes, and another third aren't coming over.

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Seems right in line with the rest of the industry imo. How many of Sony's great games are "rehashes" and aren't coming over?

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Originally Posted by Survival Kid

What about Ape Escape 2? I'm pretty sure that series is developed by an internal team.

I think Deep Space, developers of Extermination, may have been an internal team as well. And didn't Sony purchase Whoopee Camp before supposedly desolving it?

What about Mark of Kri? Is San Diego Studios owned by Sony?

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Deep Space was an internal team. In fact, it's what became of Whopee Camp after the Sony buyout.

AE2 was done at SCEI. And yeah, San Diego is a 1st party studio too.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

and jarrod, take out the games that aren't coming out in the US, and take out the games that are rehashes of earlier titles, and you get... Wario Ware. You can add Fire Emblem and Advance Wars because they never came out here before,

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Unless you're European, in which case you'd also get Kururin and Napoleon. :)

Still, what's it matter if the games don't come here? Nintendo still made them, people still play them, and Gameboy's tradional lack of region coding even makes importing more viable... How many good Sony made titles listed in this thread are "rehashes"? Why's this rule only suddenly apply to Nintendo?

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

but I can assure you Advance Wars plays almost exactly like past games in the series.

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That's somewhat like saying Super Mario World plays almost exactly like Super Mario Bros... I can assure you. ;)

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

The GBA list isn't nearly as great as so many people make it out to be.

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Probably not, but it still kicks the crap out of every other 1st party lineup post Dreamcast.

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Originally Posted by jarrod

Deep Space was an internal team. In fact, it's what became of Whopee Camp after the Sony buyout.

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Yeah, that's what I thought, but I wasn't totally sure.

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Originally Posted by kingoffighters

Sega and SNK are the only first party games I love(d). Now that Sega had gone 3rd party, and the Neo Geo has become (basically) a relic, I don't have any particular love for first party games. In fact, I think Sony/Nintendo/Microsoft all suck.

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Tru dat...