Why, I think, Nintendo has not lost its touch

I'm not going to argue against the belief held by most that Nintendo's gamecube library is weak compared to past systems. I don't think the decline in quality is that major, however. There has been several gamecube games I would dare call classics, even. But to say that anything Nintendo has done on gamecube is as brilliant or innovative as Mario 64 or Star Fox would be an outright lie.

However, Nintendo's software output for their portable hardware has improved drastically in recent years. If you look at what Nintendo developed for the Game Boy over the course of its life, you probably won't find more than a few classic games.

Now, look at what Nintendo has done in the short amount of time the GBA has been around. Many say the GBA has a better library than the current 3 consoles, and I totally agree with that. Wario Ware, Mario & Luigi, Advance Wars, Fire Emblem, Mario Kart Advance, etc are all regarded as excellent games. There are so many good Nintendo GBA games that many are either largely ignored or didn't make the cut in getting published in North America. Games like Kuru Kuru Kururin, Magical Vacation, Legend of Starfi, and the hugely underated Wario Land 4.

I think Nintendo's GBA output is so stellar compared to Nintendo's past portable software that it cancels out their dissapointing console software. And if you have a gameboy player, its like the SNES has been revived, and I don't mind reliving those glorious 16-bit days at all.

While I agree that the GBA library is great (Even though I never buy any games for the thing...When Im out I have better things to be doing), I can't stand the GBAPlayer. I bought one, played a little Mario and Luigi on it and then called it quits. I can't stand how huge and pixelly everything looks, I would much rather just lie down and play with my SP or something.

In a sense, Nintendo is breaking even in terms of quality. A lot of just flat out awful Gamecube games versus a bunch of great GBA games. Then of course, we knew this all along.

GBA SP >>>>>>>>>>>>> GB player

Pound for pound, I'd say Intelligent Systems is likely the best developer this entire generation. I've probably spent more time with their trio of GBA strategy games than most companies entire portfolios. :)

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Originally Posted by Sl1p

I can't stand the GBAPlayer. I bought one, played a little Mario and Luigi on it and then called it quits. I can't stand how huge and pixelly everything looks, I would much rather just lie down and play with my SP or something.

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I've used my Player like twice. I just play my SP on my bed. It's perfect.

I think Nintendo better get their act together soon. If it wasn't for their stellar GBA sales then they'd be headed in the same direction as Sega and the Dreamcast. I love Nontendo systems because they make games for gamers. However, recently nothing good has caught my attention :(

Laptop w/ GBA emulator > GBASP > GBA Player.

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Originally Posted by Icepick

Laptop w/ GBA emulator > GBASP > GBA Player.

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:lol:

Destroying as much Nintendo support as humanly possible......one post at a time.

I think I'm one of the few who really loves the GB Player.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy

I think I'm one of the few who really loves the GB Player.

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Nahh, I think it is great for about 90% of the time. Some games just look horrible (Iridion2), but most look better than my neck feels when playing GBA and it was much cheaper than a SP.

Anyways my feeling about this is summed up in one sentance:

I think Nintendo has not lost its touch because of Wario Ware and Wario Ware alone.

I've read a few complaints about Iridion 2 with the Player, what's the issue with it?

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Originally Posted by Kinopio

But to say that anything Nintendo has done on gamecube is as brilliant or innovative as Mario 64 or Star Fox would be an outright lie.

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And those games were a step down from their 16-bit output.

Nintendo has gone from being an amazing, brilliant, incredible game developer who made games for generations of people, to a piddling codehouse that churns out mediocre products that cash in on past glory. If there's been a bigger fall from grace in the game industry, Atari excluded, I havent heard of it.

Deleted my post because I didn't like the way I worded it.

Basaically, I was just asking for trouble.

I grew up with computer games on my old early 80s computers, Vic 20, Commodore 64 and such. I was always against Nintendo, even after giving in to extreme delight my Genesis. But when my friend passed me his B/W Gameboy on a field trip drive, I had to get one. I had played Nintendo Game & Watches before, but this, this was an instant attraction. I'm still attracted to that Gameboy. Nintendo has such history for me, that I can't speak poorly on it. Even though I had a time period where I would program for my GBA, it wasnt the same type of spark. So for now I just sit quietly and wait for that feeling of awe to come back. Much respect to Nintendo.

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Originally Posted by Kinopio

But to say that anything Nintendo has done on gamecube is as brilliant or innovative as Mario 64 or Star Fox would be an outright lie.

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Star Fox wasn't that innovative. It was damn good but it didn't do much that hadn't been done before.

There's no doubt the GBA has better games than the past GBs but I don't consider that a substitute at all for their decline in console game quality and quantity.

I love my Game Boy Player but there's no way it's the equivalent of reliving the SNES days. Nothing on GBA that isn't a port is at the quality level of Yoshi's Island, Zelda 3 or Super Metroid(although I have high hopes for Zero Mission).

I think the biggest reason Nintendo's quality has gone down is because of EAD. Their games haven't been up to the quality of the past. Mario games used to single-handedly justify the price of a console. Super Mario Sunshine certainly can't claim that. EAD has been dragging down old franchises yet not creating any new spectacular games to replace them. Pikmin is excellent but Luigi's Mansion and Animal Crossing aren't among Nintendo's best.

It is cool that we're finally getting IntSys' great strategy games in English but I think it would be nicer if IntSys and R&D1 would make less portable games and more console stuff. GBAs are selling like mad anyway. It has plenty of third-party developers. The GC needs first-party games more.

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Originally Posted by jarrod

GBA SP >>>>>>>>>>>>> GB player

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I'm happy that we're re-living the 16bit era again, but after using that adapter, I can't help bitching over having boarders and playing in high-rez (ugly, ugly pixels. MY EYES!!! :eek: :xx: ), when it should have been properly set for full screen and softer on the image.

If it wasn't for visualboyadvance, I wouldn't even care to bother trying. I just wish there was some way to make my own emu disk for GC so I can at least make it look right.

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Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater

Star Fox wasn't that innovative. It was damn good but it didn't do much that hadn't been done before.

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Its far more brilliant than innovative. Thats why I used 2 different adjectives. Either way, I'd say Star Fox is more innovative than any gamecube game, and that was my whole point.

Diffx- Star Fox is a 16 bit game.

Nintendo's still here aren't they? Don't see any argument against that.

Star Fox was only innovative for the time it was on snes and we're still waiting for a proper sequel, which is quite overdue by now.

Any word on the arcade ver yet?

voltz: The graphics on the GBA are bitmaps. If they were vector graphics they would be able to scale without being pixelated, similar to my Frazzler game. Taking a 8x8 sprite (bitmap pixel art) on the GBA and scaling it to 32x32 would most likely take each pixel in the 8x8 and make it 4x4. Thats why you see it pixelated. Theres ways of scaling bitmaps to make them look less pixelated, but it usually just makes it a blurry mess.

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Originally Posted by Icepick

Laptop w/ GBA emulator > GBASP > GBA Player.

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gotta agree with you there. VisualBoy is a great emu.

Good on the go, just costs alot more then the other 2 combined. But yes, emu pwns all....

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Originally Posted by fraggler

voltz: The graphics on the GBA are bitmaps. If they were vector graphics they would be able to scale without being pixelated, similar to my Frazzler game. Taking a 8x8 sprite (bitmap pixel art) on the GBA and scaling it to 32x32 would most likely take each pixel in the 8x8 and make it 4x4. Thats why you see it pixelated. Theres ways of scaling bitmaps to make them look less pixelated, but it usually just makes it a blurry mess.

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Just from my PC, all I have to do is switch to something like 800 x 600 or less and use the choice of either scanlines or 2xSAI filter for removing the sharp detail that makes games so ugly in higher rez. I really want to belive you but it comes down to how you emulate the product as opposed to just running it through standard video mode which is most likely what nintendo did when they made the GBA add-on. Not to mention most "official" emu's don't carry out the proper detail that an advanced user would prefer to be dealing with.

Bitmaps or not, it's not gonna make any difference. If you have a card with s-video out and the VBA emu, try it out and see if I'm wrong. ;)

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Originally Posted by conrooks

gotta agree with you there. VisualBoy is a great emu.

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Da bomb!

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

If there's been a bigger fall from grace in the game industry, Atari excluded, I havent heard of it.

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Simply put, it's Sega! From damn near owning the 16 bit generation to all but extinct in less than 10 years. Yeah, that will do it.

There is nothing on GC anywhere near as good as Star Fox 64 and that is a god damned shame. And don't say "Star Fox Adventures", don't get me started about Rare either. Of course, I still have my GC here at school with me, but it's pretty much for the sole purpose of playing Naruto 2, and when I finally grab a copy, Metroid Prime. And some GB games, now and then.

Nintendo is really slipping, and the GC, as much as I like the hardware, is a failure in terms of game quality. On the other hand, I love my GBASP, it pretty much fixed everything wrong with the first GBA, except for that damn headphone jack. I'll be loving it even more when I get a flashcart and can play all the NES games I own on it, instead of buying them again for $20 in fancy new packaging.

The current state of Nintendo is pretty pathetic.

Resolution has nothing to do with the scaling of a bitmap.
If you load VisualBoyAdvance, and you resize the window, it still does the same type of scaling as the GB Player would, except it softens the edges of the blown up pixel.

Take a bitmap in Paint Shop Pro or Adobe Photoshop and zoom in 400%, you'll see a lot of pixelation.

I dont know what hardware the GB Player uses. I dont know what software is run. But in the end, Nintendo probably wasnt left with many viable choices of scaling.

When I program a game for the GBA that uses scaling and rotation, scaling makes the sprite look very jaggy, sometimes even mutilated. if its based of the GBA's hardware scaling, I feel sorry for the people using the GB Player.

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Originally Posted by voltz

Star Fox was only innovative for the time it was on snes and we're still waiting for a proper sequel, which is quite overdue by now.

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Oh, my. I'm almost afraid to ask, but what in living hell do you find wrong with StarFox 64?

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Originally Posted by Grave

when I finally grab a copy, Metroid Prime

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Nintendo Bitching Licensed REVOKED!

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Originally Posted by fraggler

When I program a game for the GBA that uses scaling and rotation, scaling makes the sprite look very jaggy, sometimes even mutilated. if its based of the GBA's hardware scaling, I feel sorry for the people using the GB Player.

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It's not even the scaling, sometimes. Some games just look downright horrible on it. Harmony of Dissonance was a beautiful game on GBA, and was very easy to play in most light without the goodness of the GBASP frontlight or an Afterburner. It looks like washed-out disgusting trash on the GB Player and I can't stand it. If you don't value your eyes, play SSF2T Revival on the GB Player, too. Ugh. I won't even mention GGX for GBA, because it was bad enough on a small screen. And that music... gah.

On the other hand, Circle of the Moon was insanely hard to play on the original GBA, and looked great on the GB Player. Only way I could have finished the game and fully enjoyed it, I think. Well, I haven't played it since I got the SP, but I bet that helps a lot.

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Originally Posted by burgundy

Nintendo Bitching Licensed REVOKED!

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Keep in mind that the only Metroid Prime experience I have is a short demo I played a little of in Best Buy... I still didn't grasp the control then. If I don't like it, I'll be sure to complain even more.

Still, though, without Retro, do you think it would have happened? Sure, Nintendo has them now, but that's like saying you shouldn't bitch about MS because you like Halo, and because Bungie is a part of MS, you can't complain about them.

Now that the game's a price I can (almost) afford, I would like to give it a try though. But it seems like all kinds of other developers have their hands in Nintendo's franchises... speaking of which, where's that Namco StarFox?

I also firmly believe that Nintendo will never get back in the game unless they drop their stance on netplay and get some games online. Whether or not they think it's viable, people want it. There was a point where they wrote off optical media, too. I liked Animal Crossing a good deal, but after a few months I got really sick of it. Now, if Nintendo had an all-encompassing online service like Xbox Live in which I could take AC online for the same fee I'm paying for my other online games... I think they would have had a real hit on their hands.

Though, as much as I'd love to continue bitching about Nintendo, I think it's time to study.

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Originally Posted by Grave

I won't even mention GGX for GBA, because it was bad enough on a small screen. And that music... gah.

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You shouldn't, because the only way you should be playing GGX on your TV is on your PS2.

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Keep in mind that the only Metroid Prime experience I have is a short demo I played a little of in Best Buy... I still didn't grasp the control then. If I don't like it, I'll be sure to complain even more.

Still, though, without Retro, do you think it would have happened? Sure, Nintendo has them now, but that's like saying you shouldn't bitch about MS because you like Halo, and because Bungie is a part of MS, you can't complain about them.

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isn't the same as

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Originally Posted by Grave

There is nothing on GC anywhere near as good as Star Fox 64

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because while the former is reasonable, the latter is not.

I <3 Nintendo.

F Zero GX is purdy. :))))

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Originally Posted by burgundy

You shouldn't, because the only way you should be playing GGX on your TV is on your PS2.

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I stand by my SF64 statement. And the DC version of GGX was quite alright. Though, the GBA version was fun for the $10 I spent... primarily for laughs. And its ridiculously easy difficulty on all levels.

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Originally Posted by burgundy

Oh, my. I'm almost afraid to ask, but what in living hell do you find wrong with StarFox 64?

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I can't even imagine... great graphics, great gameplay, new mechanics with the charge shot to kill groups of enemies for combos, different vehicles, teh rumble, and voice acting. COCKY LITTLE FREAK!

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Originally Posted by jarrod

GBA SP >>>>>>>>>>>>> GB player

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Originally Posted by Mzo

I've used my Player like twice. I just play my SP on my bed. It's perfect.

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Hell, I thought I was the only one who felt like this, I've only used my GBA Player a handful of times since I got it, most games loook like shit on the thing.

I don't believe Nintendo's lost their touch. The problem is games as a whole have become less original nowadays. The hobby's grown so large and so expansive there's barely any room for innovation anymore nowadays. Developing games costs assloads of time and money, and most companies prefer to stick with a formula that works.

I credit Nintendo for still churning out original stuff once in a while like Animal Crossing, Pikmin, Wario Ware, etc. But it's gotten to the point where I don't expect every major Mario, Zelda, or Metroid release to be a true gaming classic. If they are, lucky us, if not, they'll still more than likely be damn good games. And that's good enough for me :)

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Originally Posted by burgundy

Oh, my. I'm almost afraid to ask, but what in living hell do you find wrong with StarFox 64?

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When star fox first came out, it was a major turning point for gaming because it brought a new style of gameplay (3D) that was something we never truly experienced on a console before.

I can't exactly call star fox 64 innovative in the same light because we've been playing games in 3D for the past 3-5 prior to it's release, all this did was bring the franchise closer to perfection and that's what we'll likely see if we get another sequel on gamecube.

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Originally Posted by voltz

When star fox first came out, it was a major turning point for gaming because it brought a new style of gameplay (3D) that was something we never truly experienced on a console before.

I can't exactly call star fox 64 innovative in the same light because we've been playing games in 3D for the past 3-5 prior to it's release, all this did was bring the franchise closer to perfection and that's what we'll likely see if we get another sequel on gamecube.

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Uh, no. It is going in a completely new direction on the GC as it is being made by the ace combat team.

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Originally Posted by voltz

When star fox first came out, it was a major turning point for gaming because it brought a new style of gameplay (3D) that was something we never truly experienced on a console before.

I can't exactly call star fox 64 innovative in the same light because we've been playing games in 3D for the past 3-5 prior to it's release, all this did was bring the franchise closer to perfection and that's what we'll likely see if we get another sequel on gamecube.

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1) You didn't say SF64 wasn't innovative, you said that Star Fox doesn't have a true sequel. Huge difference.

2) StarFox 64 came out in early 1997. Where were you playing 3D games in 1992?

(If StarFox is that old, consider me surprised, but even then, it was a novelty for quite a while.)

I also want to say that it may be fucking rosy and dandy that Nintendo is making great GBA games, but really this is not 1992 anymore and part of being a great developer is pushing the envelope. That is what makes Bioware so good. Not necessarilly for strictly graphics and atmophere (although thats a big part of it), but for making advanced and groundbreaking gameplay.

Nintendo has shown to be completely and utterly incompetent when it comes to GameCube development. Their games are mostly nonsense. The best, most groundbreaking game on the system was made by a bunch of Americans in Texas. Meanwhile the best Nintendo EAD could throw on to the screen is a nifty remake of an N64 game, a low-rent tactical action game inspired by Miyamato's shroom trips, and a fucking vacuum simulation. And NST cant do much more than prettify and worsen existing N64 racers.

If, and a very good case can be made based on the evidence, Nintendo is simply unable to make groundbreaking 64/128+ bit games and they (and Miyamato, and EAD, and whoever else) really are only comfortable making games using the same tech they were making a decade ago, than they still suck.

It's kind of like a basketball player who's amazing in college but gets to the pros and can't handle himself. He still sucks.

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Originally Posted by burgundy

1) You didn't say SF64 wasn't innovative, you said that Star Fox doesn't have a true sequel. Huge difference.

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oops, small mistake on my part.

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2) StarFox 64 came out in early 1997. Where were you playing 3D games in 1992?

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Played Doom on PC during 93, does that count?

I'm going to say something that I will probably only say this once.

I completely agree with diffx on this one.

I believe this news.

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Originally Posted by voltz

Played Doom on PC during 93, does that count?

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No, unless you're counting Space Harrier. Neither is 3D.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

I also want to say that it may be fucking rosy and dandy that Nintendo is making great GBA games, but really this is not 1992 anymore and part of being a great developer is pushing the envelope. That is what makes Bioware so good. Not necessarilly for strictly graphics and atmophere (although thats a big part of it), but for making advanced and groundbreaking gameplay.

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By using the AD&D rules system even for games that have nothing to do with it? KOTOR has some great atmosphere and a story that puts Lucas to shame, but a work of brilliant gameplay it is not, unless you're a mathematician then you'd probably really dig the card mini-game.

I think a better example would be Metal Arms. Here's a game that's obviously learning from what came before, but adding, improving, and refining it into something really special and it's produced by a completely new developer without the experience Nintendo should have. I think the problem with Nintendo is they plain just ignore the games other people are producing and so their games have become weaker through a sort of mental inbreeding.

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unless you're a mathematician then you'd probably really dig the card mini-game.

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I am, and I do.

Anyway, who's saying that KOTOR is Bioware's only game? All their games have been brilliant. Even their worst one, Neverwinter Nights, still has the amazing Aurora toolset and its better than anything EAD has put on GameCube.

Oh, and I never played Metal Arm. Ill buy it when its $2 or something.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

I am, and I do.

Anyway, who's saying that KOTOR is Bioware's only game? All their games have been brilliant. Even their worst one, Neverwinter Nights, still has the amazing Aurora toolset and its better than anything EAD has put on GameCube.

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I'm not saying their games aren't good and haven't been better than recent Nintendo efforts, but saying they 'push the envelope' seems very odd to me when the majority of their games follow the exact same rules, though maybe because this is a pet peeve of mine with them.

I was forgetting about the Aurora toolset though. That was brilliant and the sort of tool other PC developers should look at since their own tools usually come out half-assed (Morrowind's especially).

I just can't let a thread involving Nintendo's best GC games go by without mentioning the simple, brilliant master work that is Animal Crossing. Those who wish to may now continue with their mindless anti-Nintendo rhetoric.

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By using the AD&D rules system even for games that have nothing to do with it?

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What does the rules system exist for? Calculating probable skill levels with various weapons against each other in a turn-based format. What occurs during battle in KOTOR? People with various skills in different weapons attack each other in a turn-based format. How does one have nothing to do with the other? Would you have been happier if they used the Rifts rules set, or the comparably pathetic typical console RPG calculations?

Innovation!

http://www.nintendo.co.jp/n09/p_motion/index.html

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Originally Posted by Jeremy

I just can't let a thread involving Nintendo's best GC games go by without mentioning the simple, brilliant master work that is Animal Crossing. Those who wish to may now continue with their mindless anti-Nintendo rhetoric.

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Hey Jemery, what the fuck do you think I was referring to when I said "a remake of a nifty N64 game"?

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Originally Posted by MechDeus

What does the rules system exist for? Calculating probable skill levels with various weapons against each other in a turn-based format. What occurs during battle in KOTOR? People with various skills in different weapons attack each other in a turn-based format. How does one have nothing to do with the other? Would you have been happier if they used the Rifts rules set, or the comparably pathetic typical console RPG calculations?

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For starters, I'd like not to be restricted by a class-based system to make my characters with, and if it's not too much to ask, I'd like to use a lightsaber in real time instead of watching it roll damage and hit calculations for one.

To get back to the topic, I don't think Nintendo has to innovate or be completely brilliant. Neversoft isn't a fountain of inspiration, but the installments of the Tony Hawk series manage to give most of their fans what they want, even when they borrow ideas from other sources.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Hey Jemery, what the fuck do you think I was referring to when I said "a remake of a nifty N64 game"?

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Every first party GC game.

Super Mario Sunshine?
Doshin?
Wave Race?

Please, keep me guessing.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy

whine whine mindless anti-Nintendo rhetoric whine

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Nintendo either refuses, or is somehow unable, to keep up with the times. If you can't see it, you're blind. It's not like I'm happy about it, it's just an honest observation. You don't see me throwing away my GC, do you?

I don't hate Nintendo, I'm more sad about what's happening. I want very badly for them to start innovating and making products with the same level of quality that they always used to.

The basketball player analogy is what really got me. With N64 and GC, it really seems like Nintendo's out of their league. They're not out of the game, but they're not owning it the way they used to, or even putting the effort into it that they used to.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Hey Jemery, what the fuck do you think I was referring to when I said "a remake of a nifty N64 game"?

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Every first party GC game.

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Originally Posted by Ammadeau

For starters, I'd like not to be restricted by a class-based system to make my characters with, and if it's not too much to ask, I'd like to use a lightsaber in real time instead of watching it roll damage and hit calculations for one.

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Those are just things you'd like, that doesn't really have anything to do with I was responding to.

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Originally Posted by Ammadeau

Every first party GC game.

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No, most of the first party GC games are trash.

Bioware....innovation? They may make great stories, they may make great characters, they may make great music, but gameplay is average PC RPG at best. Hell Planescape:Torment is lightyears ahead of KOTOR where most of its elements originated from. Black Isle used to be the ones they were pushing the envelope, now that their talent is gone, so has their games. :(

And as for the card game, FF8's card game kills it if you like maths.


The most innovative developer is probably Troika for RPG's and a very honorable mention to capcom for Dragon Quarter.

FF8's card game is pants.

And Bioware is the best developer on the planet. If you dont agree, fuck you. But in any case, thats not the point of my original post. You can substitute any developer you really like for Bioware and my original point stands.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Hey Jemery, what the fuck do you think I was referring to when I said "a remake of a nifty N64 game"?

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Actually a lot was added to the GC version. And it seems that the only thing added was gameplay.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

FF8's card game is pants.

And Bioware is the best developer on the planet. If you dont agree, fuck you. But in any case, thats not the point of my original post. You can substitute any developer you really like for Bioware and my original point stands.

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Fair enough. But when you talk about pushing the envelope, you must realise very few companies do it. I mean, when was the last innovation in platformers, driving, sports and sim games? Most of it is just rehash of games from the last decade but made easier. And most of the time innovation is never rewarded as very little sales come from these games.

diff, you were just a TAD vague with that mention.

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Originally Posted by Ammadeau

To get back to the topic, I don't think Nintendo has to innovate or be completely brilliant.

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Apparently neither do they, and it's been killing them.

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Originally Posted by Damian79

And as for the card game, FF8's card game kills it if you like maths.

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FF8's card game slowly sucked the joy and good out of my life, until I was an emotionless husk of a man, going through the motions to finish that horrendous game.

KOTOR's card game feels like gambling with small strategic advantages... you have to play smart, and get lucky. It's not super-complicated or in-depth, or even necessary in any way. The way it should be.

I'll say that Advance Wars 1 and 2 are 2 of the best games this generation.

Unfortunately, I'm not buying any portable console things.

Nintendo removes thumb from butt, puts AW on the GC and enables some sort of online play, they get sales +1 from me for the whole thing.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy

I've read a few complaints about Iridion 2 with the Player, what's the issue with it?

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Well on the player the GFX look really washed out on it. On the GBA it looks good. I think it has to do with the pre-renedered 3D stuff and that because to make it look 3D they have to use so many similarly shaded colors it looks a bit washed out. Great game still.

I think that it is just popular to hate Nintendo as of late.

The ammount of games I have PS2>GC>XBOX and the only reason PS2 has more is because of sega... then again I have more DC games than PS2 and GC combined.

Can't it be popular to hate nintendo because they do hate-inspiring things?

I love my cube, but their little LAN cocktease is no replacement for real online play.

They put out a BBA, WTF. THAT makes me hate them. Imagine Crystal Chronicle online. Like, half of people's bitching gone.

That would cure a hell of a lot of the bitching, you're dead on about that one.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Can't it be popular to hate nintendo because they do hate-inspiring things?

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I guess... I don't hate them, and I am far from a N fanboy. Then again things like online play are just bonus things and not something that gets me angry. I actually don't like online games mostly... so that is probably part of the lack of hate.

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

I guess... I don't hate them, and I am far from a N fanboy. Then again things like online play are just bonus things and not something that gets me angry. I actually don't like online games mostly... so that is probably part of the lack of hate.

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So, and I say this with all seriousness, shut the fuck up. If you dont think online gaming is important, good for you - I do, and so thats a major reason why I think Nintendo sucks ass now.

Whether it may just be cool to hate Nintendo now or what, Ive presented my reasons sensibly enough.

I have a Canon digital camera and I think its great. But if they start to release shitty cameras, and I buy one based on the one I have now, and I get really pissed off because I wasted my money on crap, think I would be pissed?

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

So, and I say this with all seriousness, shut the fuck up.

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I would, although the thread is not about "why lack of good online gaming is why Nintendo has lost its touch". If Nintendo knows that they can not compete with the kind of service that MS can supply with Xbox, why do it? Why not learn from it so that they can offer an equally excelent service in the next showing of a system? Why divide funding for an excelent sevice nextime into to the funding for a sub-par service this time?

Honestly I don't know. I am not an insider. Time will tell. You know it seems like alot of people are unwilling to give these companys/systems time. When Xbox was release (I was part of this too, so I am not flaming) there were tons of people bashing it as either too big or ugly or nothing more than a Halo TV adaptor. Look at what it is now, a online console gaming monster. I can wait, I have enough good games for now.

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So, and I say this with all seriousness, shut the fuck up. If you dont think online gaming is important, good for you - I do, and so thats a major reason why I think Nintendo sucks ass now.

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Translated to "If you don't think like I do, you have no say in this forum."

You might as well start burning books with a mindset like that.

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

I would, although the thread is not about "why lack of good online gaming is why Nintendo has lost its touch". If Nintendo knows that they can not compete with the kind of service that MS can supply with Xbox, why do it? Why not learn from it so that they can offer an equally excelent service in the next showing of a system? Why divide funding for an excelent sevice nextime into to the funding for a sub-par service this time?

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That's all well and good but it's not the reason. Sony can't compete with XBL, they still make an effort.

Try 'why should we do it if we can't make a lot of money charging people to play online monthly?'

When they figure out how to seperate timmy from his jar of pennines each time he gets online, they'll make online games.

Nintendo has 2 major consumers - fanboys and suckers... I fit in one of the 2 categories so I'm sold.

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Originally Posted by fraggler

Translated to "If you don't think like I do, you have no say in this forum."

You might as well start burning books with a mindset like that.

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Eat a dick. Like I have said in past threads I have rationally explained just why I dont like Nintendo now - the shitty games, the shitty controllers, the lack of online gaming support, their support of a shitty handheld. I explained it yet again here. But, for some reason, people seem translate it as "OMG WTF U JUST HATE NINTENDO!".

If you're gonna say that, grow a brain, and head on over to Planet GameCube, where its a big Nintendo lovey dovey fest.

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I would, although the thread is not about "why lack of good online gaming is why Nintendo has lost its touch". If Nintendo knows that they can not compete with the kind of service that MS can supply with Xbox, why do it? Why not learn from it so that they can offer an equally excelent service in the next showing of a system? Why divide funding for an excelent sevice nextime into to the funding for a sub-par service this time?

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They could make an excellent service if they wanted. They certainly have enough money. There are certainly enough people who they could hire to help them build it. They knew, well before GC was released, that online gaming was the future. They just decided not to do it because they dont give a fuck.

They just dont want to because they cant gouge the customer, or because they are unable to make a good online game, I have no idea, but what we are talking about with online is part of the problem: the customers and the fans want online but Nintendo doesnt want to give it to them, and Nintendo's slogan might as well be "you'll like what we tell you to like". Miyamato says BS like you cant make money with online, tell that to Sony who's raking in like $3 million a month from Everquest. It shows just how far behind the pack they are.

And as for why they cannot "learn from it", they cannot "learn from" Xbox Live because theyre not doing it. Just like you cant watch Stevie Ray Vaughn videos and learn how to play guitar - you gotta pick it up and do it yourself. XBL wasn't Microsoft's first stab at a gaming service - they've been running Zone since about 1996.

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

When Xbox was release (I was part of this too, so I am not flaming) there were tons of people bashing it as either too big or ugly or nothing more than a Halo TV adaptor. Look at what it is now, a online console gaming monster. I can wait, I have enough good games for now.

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Does your XB get smaller or better looking with time or something?

XB and GC launched around the same time. One of these consoles has hosted a few great games, a lot of shit ones and gives it's userbase what they want.

The other one is a gamecube.

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I have rationally explained just why I dont like Nintendo now

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diffusionx: You forgot the key part of that sentance was the "i."
It is YOUR opinion. People can have different opinions, doesnt mean you tell them to shut up. My "translation" has nothing to do with Nintendo. It was about your reasoning to tell him to shut up for giving his opinion that you didnt agree with. You jumped on me without even understanding the whole point of my post. And that just goes to show why (your favorite word) I made that comment in the first place.

dfx: Good points. Your posts just reek of angst most of the time so I can never tell when your serious. But let me ask you: (1) This late in the game N releases a great online service, but only releases one or two high calibur online games before the next gen of systems hits the market. (2) N:Next is announced to have excellent online plans and actually follows through with it. Which would you prefer (I am not ragging on you, just interested. At this point I would go with (2) becaus I know that I can turn to XBox).

MVS: My XBox is the same size, I was just pointing out that it seemed like people were trying every excuse to call a great system a failure before they saw the full potential of it.

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It is YOUR opinion.

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Yea... my opinion is right though. At least, its more right than someone who responds with the OMFG NINTENDO HATER response.

Shaper: it is too late to put a genuine online service on GameCube. Nintendo missed their chance, and I think giving them a pass on that is stupid, because like I said they had plenty of time to say "hey, it looks like this online thing is taking off!". However, nothing coming from HQ as of late (and by that I mean the past four years) is telling me that they plan on releasing one at any point.

See, when they do decide to release an online service, it will cost a lot of money. And they will lose cash. At first. If you're smart about it you'll make it back (look at Sony with EQ).

And, while they could go full force and release an excellent service, I dont see them doing because, because (A) they cant gouge the customer, (B) it seems they're totally unwilling to invest the money, (C) Miyamato, that git, is probably convincing the upper ranks that you cant make money from it, (D) they have no prior experience with online gaming, and no Satallaview doesnt count... MS has Zone and Sony has Station (and even with that look at how shitty PS2 online is), (E) theyve shown no inclination to do it yet... just look at how crappy the LAN hookup features in Double Dash were... no character selection, for heaven's sake, (F) people are still completely willing to buy their shit/non-online games like Double Dash or whatever.

Well, it looks like you really want N to get their shit together and it almost seems like you feel that they personally insulted you with this, as though they spit in your face. Understandable. Your opinions make sence and I cannot disagree with them.

Personally, I felt like that with the N64. Still do for most of the time. I think that N gained a bit of my respect back with their 3rd part exclusiveity (which is also a big part of what made the SNES also an excellent system in my eyes). I would like to see more original items from N, but with the fall of Sega and their DC to me instead of seeing online-capability as a money maker, they felt that they need to play the safest game as possible. Use the tools they have and just make sure not to loose any ground from where they were with N64.

Time will tell. I feel that their lack of changeing with the time (online capabilities, LAN) is not ment to insult the fan, but more of they felt that they needed to keep the games the focus, because they knew what sold well in the past. I think that the next time around they will have learned (at least I hope they do).

Like you even said yoursel dfx, it is too late. Why are you worring about it?

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Originally Posted by Grave

I liked Animal Crossing a good deal, but after a few months I got really sick of it. Now, if Nintendo had an all-encompassing online service like Xbox Live in which I could take AC online for the same fee I'm paying for my other online games... I think they would have had a real hit on their hands.

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Animal Crossing was a real hit. Its handily outsold any xbox live game. I'm sure thats Nintendo's main concern.

However, they better make an online AC game eventually. It'd probably be the best game ever.

Indeed it would be. Downloadable NES and SNES games on it would rule. Also, Shapermc, thanks for the Iridion 2 info, I'm kind of surprised that colors would look more washed out on it, for me, colors tend to look much sharper on the Player than on the GBA.

Downloadable Nintendo games are already in Japan with the Nintendo iQue. Head to lik-sang.com for it.

I know about that, but I'm just saying that it'd be awesome to have downloadable games within a game.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

See, when they do decide to release an online service, it will cost a lot of money. And they will lose cash. At first. If you're smart about it you'll make it back (look at Sony with EQ).

And, while they could go full force and release an excellent service, I dont see them doing because, because (A) they cant gouge the customer, (B) it seems they're totally unwilling to invest the money, (C) Miyamato, that git, is probably convincing the upper ranks that you cant make money from it, (D) they have no prior experience with online gaming, and no Satallaview doesnt count... MS has Zone and Sony has Station (and even with that look at how shitty PS2 online is), (E) theyve shown no inclination to do it yet... just look at how crappy the LAN hookup features in Double Dash were... no character selection, for heaven's sake, (F) people are still completely willing to buy their shit/non-online games like Double Dash or whatever.

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EQ was a success on PC, but on the PS2 it's a total flop.


I don't think it has anything to do with gouging the customer. It's more about a return for their efforts. Sega could'nt do it with the DC and Sony is'nt exactly pulling in cash barrels with thier PS2 online service either. Sure Live is a success in the US, but what about Japan, or Europe? Nintendo's interest starts in their homeland and goes from there, much like MS's starts in the US.


What percentage of console gamers are playing online, compared to PC gamers? It's a lot easier to just log on with the PC, then to drag a cable across your living room. I'm sure a lot of posters on these forums are willing to do that, but is the average joe going to, when it's more convenient to get their online fix with their PC.


Yeah, I'd love to see games like Double Dash, F-Zero and Animal crossing with full online content, but realistically it's just a niche market, until most homes in the US have a Cat.5 cable running from a switch to every bedroom/livingroom in America.

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Originally Posted by gamevet

Yeah, I'd love to see games like Double Dash, F-Zero and Animal crossing with full online content, but realistically it's just a niche market, until most homes in the US have a Cat.5 cable running from a switch to every bedroom/livingroom in America.

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Xbox Live does very good for a "niche market", and I feel more people would take advantage of online gaming if they could play stuff like Mario Kart and FF:CC (I feel the bigger more well known names would attract people over something like, Crimson Skies).

I know that me, personally, would have worn out my copies of MK: DD and F-Zero if they were online, but for now, they sit in the corner because MK :DD in particular dosen't have anything else to offer me. If FF:CC was online, i'd pick it up in a heartbeat, but for now I'm skipping it until it's around 10-15.

The hilarious thing is that Nintendo just asked readers, in the newest issue of NP, "which of our franchises would be good with an online aspect?".

I couldn't help but laugh.

I personally would rather have one update of OoT and Wind Waker than 95% of anything out there on the market. With that being said though, I would like other games like Mario, Rebel Strike and Smash Bros. to evolutionize themselves further then they did last year.

I don't even want mascots. I did enjoy a lot of the Gamecube games this year, though. I'm not going to list them... because lists are dumb.

diff: calm down man. these kids don't know.

oy, clearly online is very important to some of you guys, it used to be for me when pso came out for the dreamcast, but by the death of the dreamcast i came to one, unavoidable conclusion, online is a very convenient way to be put at the mercy of a lot of dickheads who will use their ample free time to make exploits to ruin the game for people who enjoy playing the game fairly. mmo's are an exercise in pure boredom within a weeks,and my experience with cvs2 online was that it was totally unplayable due to the lag so frankly, online, while a fun diversion, is not something i find as a requisite for gaming enjoyment. nintendo's treatment of pso was deplorable, and i am angry about the keyboard situation, but frankly, i havent been impressed enough with x-box live games to say that any of them were more fun than nintendo's first party games. you can only get a 15 year old screaming obscinities in your ear for so long before you realize that right now online gaming on consoles really is not that fun.

edit, though i conceed, double dash and chronicles would be fun online.

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EQ was a success on PC, but on the PS2 it's a total flop.

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Because it's shit. But my point was made: it is possible to make money on online gaming. Miyamato and whoever else at Nintendo who believes you cant make money with online gaming is wrong, stupid, or both (I bet on both).

They don't believe THEY can make money with online gaming yet, not others. There's a world of difference.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

So, and I say this with all seriousness, shut the fuck up.

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How about you shut the fuck up and stop insulting people for no reason, you fucking sack of repeating shit.

Oh no. cigsthe cat yelled at me and hurt my feelings. :(

And way to rip off Tollbooth Willie, you knob.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy

I think I'm one of the few who really loves the GB Player.

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Well yeah... you're blind.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Oh no. cigsthe cat yelled at me and hurt my feelings. :(

And way to rip off Tollbooth Willie, you knob.

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You're not even worth it.

Icepick - yup, and damn proud of it.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

. you can only get a 15 year old screaming obscinities in your ear for so long before you realize that right now online gaming on consoles really is not that fun.

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That's what a friend's list is for. ;)

Nintendo's refusal to even consider online play is one reason why I have bought 10 new games since the GC's launch, and 13 games in total.

The other reason is because there's just nothing there anymore that screams the old Nintendo quality. Prime and AC were the only Nintendo games this generation that did that. WW was an exercise in boredom and Sunshine, while fun, was clearly a step down for the mighty Mario.

I'm sick of this connectivity bullshit, releasing shit and not supporting it (E-REader, modem), and the utter apathy Nintendo has towards what the consumer wants. I will buy the good games that come out, but I don't see the GC being even my #2 system for the remainder of its life span. They dropped the ball with the N64 and just have no idea what the fuck they're doing this generation. Nintendo is the Sega of the new millenium and it sucks. :(

You know, I really wanted to throw my lot in with Nintendo this gen. Granted, I snagged the Xbox first (due solely to Panzer Dragoon Orta), but Nintendo was the only company that felt ole' school, and dammit, if I couldn't support a Sega console I'd support a Nintendo one.



The only problem was that I had skipped the N64 days... so I was going into the GC with SNES expectations. And wow... was I ever let down.


Mind you, the Gamecube is a nice console. Its not the worst that ever was, and it definitely brings about its own unique feel. But damn Wind Waker and Mario Sunshine are boring as all hell. I mean, I was enjoying the hell out of Wind Waker until I had to search the ocean for hours looking for treasure; who in the hell thought that would be fun!? When I start to feel like I'm plowing through a game just to get to the next part, something is wrong. And aside from Wind Waker I believe Mario Sunshine, F-Zero, Star Fox Adventures, and Eternal Darkness are the only 1st party (Is ED 1st or 2nd party?) titles I own. And the only one I really got any true enjoyment out of was F-Zero... which was made by Amusement Vision anyways.



So yeah, Nintendo is definitely far far faaaar away from making the type of games they made back in the SNES days. Can't really comment on the N64 since I never really messed with it (although most of that was Rare anyways wasn't it?)


Then again, I can't really point the finger at just Nintendo. It seems like all the developers are in some kind of slump these days: Sega, Capcom, I would say Squeenix but I'm sure FF fanboys would eat me alive, Rare, etc. Not saying the aforementioned developers aren't making good games... but I am saying that they really aren't making stuff that lives up to their work from the 90s.


At least Treasure still kicks ass (I think, I never got to play Wario's World or Astro Boy, and I have no idea what they're working on now... so I could be wrong. Eeek!) :sweat:

Didn't treasure make that dragon drive gc game?

If so, they suck ass now.

Something's definitely wrong with the developers. They're just stagnant. I think one of the problems with Nintendo as they're not seen as a big force anymore. Things like connectivity and no broadband support, yet they released a broadband modem, is ridiculous.

Consumers don't like to see things not be supported. It makes their purchases of the systems feel unsupported.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

I personally would rather have one update of OoT and Wind Waker than 95% of anything out there on the market.

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If you don't know yet then when you see this "link" *snicker* your going to freak out.

http://www.oot2d.com/

Enjoy.

Interesting Shaper, but yes I'd have to agree with Andrew, I'd like to see a remake of OoT just like everybody else. Problem with remakes is, 95% of the time, they fuck it up. Like if I really wanted a FF7 sequel, I'd like to see it go on the PS3 with 3 DVD's or something, instead of some crappy rehash.

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Originally Posted by DjRocca

Interesting Shaper, but yes I'd have to agree with Andrew, I'd like to see a remake of OoT just like everybody else. Problem with remakes is, 95% of the time, they fuck it up.

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Aye, but this is a fan product. I think that it is great to see that N could still have made that game 2D and had it look sweet (I am very tempted to play thought it in 2D now) |-)

BTW- I played FF7, why do it again with shiny new GFX? The gameplay is still going to be the same I assume.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Didn't treasure make that dragon drive gc game?

If so, they suck ass now.

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They also sucked ass for Light Crusader and Silpheed 2.

Just look at Gradius 5, though, they're fucking ON for that one.