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Superherohype has posted someone describing the new Spider-Man 2 trailer. The coolest part is the guy got to see a long clip of Spidey fighting with Doc Ock that sounds aweome-
http://www.superherohype.com/spider-...ex.php?id=1085
Newest trailer available here: http://www.apple.com/trailers/sony_p...ler/index.html
(link added to main page instead of hunting for it, courtesy of Bahn)
Nice! Looks a lot better than the first.
Wow this does look sweet. Was that the same kid who played the son in the first film? I can't remember. But this movie looks 10x better than the first. I liked the first but it was overhyped.
Octopus are the natural enemies of spiders.
Awesome! People have been saying it looks more like a Sam Raimi movie than the first one, and they're right. It's got more of the manic energy the Evil Dead movies had. I had some problems with the first one, but I'm really looking forward to seeing the sequel.
Well, It definately does look better than original. I really disliked the first film, but I am willing to give this a chance.
The problems in the first were pretty minor. This film looks amazing, one of the best of the Summer for sure.
That looked damn sweet, I only hope they wrote better jokes for Spiderman since the ones in the first fell pretty flat.
Fucking A. And hey I liked the first one, better then I thought. At least it didn't flop like "The Hulk".
Yes the Hulk was not very good at all.
I recall you enjoying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Oh well it had some moments but by and large it's disliked around here.
Now, if people can find spider man 2 trailers, boot and leaked, why has no one gotten me some new Kill Bill Vol.2 stuff :'( :( :cry:
Its because fuckin Miramax wants to keep it shrouded in mystery
That... is a really amazing trailer. I can't wait to see this one, I loved the first and Sam Raimi is one of my favorite directors. WOO!
Superb. I only have 1 wish for this new spiderman movie: Please set up Venom for 3. I'd pay for 2 tickets to see that shit.
btw, Spider-Man 3 has allready been announced for May something 2007. Tobey and Kirsten have said they've signed for 3, but after that it's all up in the air. Anyways, I wonder why there's a 3 year instead of a 2 year for wait for the next one? Perhaps it'll be really ambitious, maybe they'll do something huge like try to bring Venom to life?
Good god, I hope so.
I think it's because they want to make Spiderman 3 100% CG, rather than the 50% CG it is now.
Please, good Heaven, NO.Quote:
Originally Posted by cka
Venom is so over. I don't get why people are dying to see him in the next Spider-Man movie. In fact, people were praying he'd be in Spidey 2!
It took 30 years for Venom to be introduced into the Spider-Man mythos. In the movie, Spidey's just starting out. Why would Venom be introduced this early in Spider-Man's career?
I hope we never see Venom in a Spider-Man film. I'm sure it will happen eventually, but by then, Venom will be more of a has-been than he is now.
I can see it now; Please, Please give us Carnage... :rolleyes:
You do understand that the Spiderman villians are pretty fucking lean, man, right?
Take your pick:
Dude in a lion vest that hunts.
Another goblin.
One armed man that turns into a fucking aligator.
Let's not forget mysterieo who was like a man with a fishbowl on his head.
Compared to that Venom rapes them all.
Well, for starters he's a popular character in the spider man line (if he wasn't, why would he be in all them video games and etc?) so it would only make sense that he shows up sooner or later. Also, most people tend to think of Venom as the evil version of Spider Man, and you know that's gotta go down in at least 1 of these movies. Third, Venom is just a plain cool character, and a movie with him facing off against spidey is gonna result in both the studio making a fortune and the series going out with a huge bang.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
As well, you can't forget that movies can't follow the same timelines as the forms of media they're derived from. It's unrealistic for them to try and follow the comics timeline, because the comics have been around for 40 some-odd years or so now and they simply do not have that sort of a timeframe to work with for the movies (unless you want to see 30 or 40 years of spiderman adventures featuring him facing off against every boring ass generic thug that's ever tried to strongarm NYC.) I somehow doubt that Doc Ock came around this close after the green goblin got iced (if he even did get iced in the comics - I don't read them so I don't know).
Damn right Matt. Pretty shitty selection if you ask me :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Venom and Carnage are the only villians in Spiderman that I care about, and I would love to see them on the big screen.
If they go with another Goblin in S3, that would be friggin ridiculous.
They could do the Vulture! Played by Patrick Stewart!Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
... :confused:
Don't forget old bald man with wings (edit: damn you Firstblood!) and yellow fishnet man.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Hobgoblin could be cool. But he should be in part 4, Venom definately needs to be up next.Quote:
Originally Posted by Despair
Re: trailer - Holy fuck. I think the stupified gaping happy face I made through half of that just gave me a +8 aura of geekiness even though I was alone while watching it, strong enough that when others pass by me later today they will feel it eminating from my body. Yeah, that was fucking cool as hell.
Yes, lest we not forget the other inspired characters like:
Rhino: Who is, a man in a rhino suit.
Or Sandman. A man. Of Sand.
Whoop-dee-fucking-doo!
CKA, I see your point. Venom in a movie is a workable idea. I failed to keep in mind the ages and mindsets of today's comic readers vs. older fans. And I didn't really expect Raimi & Co. to follow Spidey's timeline exactly. I know it's necessary to jump around alot, but really, from Year One to Year 30 in the span of one movie is way, way jumping the gun to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by cka
Still, there are PLENTY more villains to choose from. 40 years is a long time, and while not every villain has been top-notch, some have been quite deadly. Who the hell thought Doctor Octopus, long a joke in the Spidey mythos, would make a cool movie villain? He certainly wasn't my first choice. But here he is, in the hands of a competent scriptwriter, director and actor and VOILA! Awesome Spidey villain!
Look at Batman's Rogues Gallery. It's just as bad as, no MUCH WORSE THAN, Spider-Man's. Yet, we have a string of successful movies, and minimal bitching about the choices of villains. Now, the villains' execution got progressively worse as the movie series went on, but still, no one complained about why Hush isn't in the new Batman flick, or where's Harley. I can't believe people are going on about Spidey villain costumes. Joker? Riddler? Penguin?? Yeah, those costumes were kickass :yuck:
Why the hell can't people see the likes of Electro, Sandman (!!), Rhino, Lizard, Morbius, Prowler, Black Cat or Tarantula as being awesome and visually-pleasing Spidey villains? Because of their costumes? You people lack vision. Again, see Doctor Octopus. Hell, see Green Goblin (okay, his new costume sucks too, but he was still a cool villain).
And if we want to introduce current comic events into the new movies, hasn't anyone been paying attention to Spidey AFTER VENOM?? Venom is a jobber, a has-been, not much more of a threat to Spidey than Vulture or Rocket Racer. His popularity peaked with Issue 300 and has been quickly waning since his first Limited Series.
But, I suppose that he would have great screen prescence with Spidey and would make an effective movie villain. I just think his 15 minutes was done 12 years ago and I have no desire to see him or his even lamer symbiote-upchuck, Carnage.
Joker - man in a purple suit. Uses gags.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Penguin - do I need to say anything here?
Riddler - skin-tight question mark suit and derby. uses riddles to lead Batman straight to him. Clever.
Harley Quinn - a female clown.
Do you see where this is going? It's pointless to simplify the villains in the manner you did. Kraven, Hobgoblin, Lizard and Mysterio are far more than their getups, just as Joker, Penguin (well, not really. He still sucks, even in the comics), Riddler and Harley Quinn are awesome characters, despite their costumes.
Out of curiousity, do you also have a problem with the redone Venom in newer Spidey stuff leaving out the Secret Wars aspect?Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
I'm sorry, but most older comics are crap from my point of view as a reader. The ideas are good and there's a lot of solid stuff to work with but it all needs to be rewritten and worked over. One of the reasons the X-Men movies are so excellent is because they took out a lot of the extraneous crap and didn't worry about sticking to the timeline. Their inital lineup was hardly the "proper" one, but so what? It worked.
Spiderman doesn't have nearly that amount of baggage since he's only one character as opposed to a group so large they had to keep giving parts of the overall team their own series and the main characters still had like two series of their own, but there's still a lot of needless waste amongst all those years. Take what's good, run with it, and make a good movie.Leagues better then Vulture or Vulture II. Or how the way there's Green Goblin I-V and isn't there at least two Hobgoblins? They could at least make something new, for Christsake. And no, the abominations I linked earlier and others like Crime Master don't count.Quote:
I can't believe people are going on about Spidey villain costumes. Joker? Riddler? Penguin?? Yeah, those costumes were kickass :yuck:
Electro and Lizard, yes. Black Cat not so much and Sandman seems too Batman Forever. I don't remember the others off the top of my head.Quote:
Why the hell can't people see the likes of Electro, Sandman (!!), Rhino, Lizard, Morbius, Prowler, Black Cat or Tarantula as being awesome and visually-pleasing Spidey villains?
Exactly. His look, the enourmous drooling gash of a mouth, the lashing out of tentacle-like whips and morphing limbs, he's easily the coolest looking and most impressive Spiderman villain I've ever seen. So his time is done in the comics, and? Spiderman's also out of college and married in the comics*, your point?Quote:
But, I suppose that he would have great screen prescence with Spidey and would make an effective movie villain.
*not counting that relaunch they did a while back, I rather dropped out of American comics a few years ago
OK, I stopped right here. I don't really care what was written afterwards, someone shut this guy up now.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
The discussion is over:
Batman, is a highly obsessed and dedicated man who fight mental defectives in his city.
Spiderman is a fucking teenager bit by a radioactive spider that somehow gives him spider powers and fights old men who build stupid shit.
A pox on whoever dared sully the good name of Bat-man with this filth of a thread!
Bloody, name some spiderman villians that are better or shut your cock hole.
Yes, that will do nicely. Thanks.
Oh my god, I'm in fucking tears. :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Long Live The Dark Knight Returns!
Sons of the Batman!
Take that you red booted alien bitch!
Whew...Batman a god among men....Spiderman so-so....
Spidermans villains work with his setting and style. Venom and Carnage are better because they can carry a comic book by themselves. People like the Alligator and Kraven the Hunter are there to build Spiderman up. Nothing more.
Right, and Batman fights fucking clowns. I fail to see the difference. So, one has powers. They're both ficticious comic super-heroes. Batman does shit no human can do, even peak level humans. Spider-Man shits all over Batman. Feel free to end the discussion here.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Easy. Goblin. Venom can't compare to the shit Goblin's put Spider-Man through.Quote:
Bloody, name some spiderman villians that are better or shut your cock hole.
Keep up.
No, Batman fights mental defectives that escape from the local mental institution, the Arkham Asylum. By definition, they are going to have odd wardrobes, I grant you that, but they are murder's, rapists, crippeler and canibals. So, Batman does his good dead of chasing the sick fucks down and then locking them back up.
Spiderman, on the other hand, has nothing that he has earned himself, besides contributing directily to his uncle's death and a mean case of acne/teenage depression. Then, he fights dudes who just so happen to show up in town. Uh-oh, we've had some reports of missing bird feed...the Vultures back in town!!
Piss, poo and shit on that.
The hobgoblin, who is like a deformed version of the green goblin? Blah.
At least the Joker killed Robin and crippeled Gordon's daughter.
Now, I'll grant you that there are some lame as fuck batman villians, but not using Venom in the next Spiderman movie, who is basically a sadistic version of Spiderman, is like keeping the joker on the sidelines and bringing in poison ivy, who can make you develop a mean rash from plants over time.
LAME.
Scorpion, Doc Oc, Kingpin, Carnage, Venom, Hydro man, Morbius (vampire-esque guy), Mysterio (psychic trickery), Rhino, the Shocker, The Sandman, The Chameleon, and Vulture all kicked many assorted asses collectively.
By themselves Doc Oc, Scorpion, Hydro Man, Venom, Rhino, The Chameleon and The Shocker all were well written villains.
The Lizard wasn't Spidermans enemy as much as friend. In most cases Spiderman had to help The Lizard resume human form so he wouldn't cause trouble. It was a well written double edged sword to watch Peter struggle with how he was going to deal with his good friend turning evil.
Actually, they can't. All of Venom's series have been cancelled. And Carnage never had his own book.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
That's a part of Spidermans character though. He isn't this over the top super hero character with a chisled jaw and all the things a superhero should have. He didn't ask for any of it and has to live with his gift. He also has to give up many of the people he loves in order for it to work.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
With great power comes great responsibility is one of his huge themes. Batman kicks ass, but Spiderman also kicks copious amounts of ass too.
I was talking story wise not sales. You'd be hard pressed to find an author who'd be willing to make a comic book out of Kraven the Hunter.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Scorpion a dude in a mechanical scorpian suit :/
Doc Oc, not bad, good choice for a 2nd movie where it's him versus another old crazy man who builids weird shit.
Kingpin - just as much a villian of DD or Punisher, probably DD most of all since he has been fucked over the most by Kingpin.
Venom - Okay, now you are talking
Carnage - De Ja Vu...
Hydroman - Dude just throw freon at him and be done with it.
Morbios? He sounds like Dr. Strange who's power was that he was a Dr. who was very Strange...
Rhino? See scorpion
Shocker? could be interesting, until he gets water tossed on him.
Sandman? Okay, if they fight at the beach.
Chameleon? Bland. What's he going to do, morph into Mary Jane then strap one on and brutalize poor Peter?
Vulture? For fucks sake, people in NY would shoot thing thing down themselves.
S3 Venom or no go. No one else can come close to the danger he inspires, the damage he can inflict or the mayhem that can ensue.
True. Especially since he comiitted suicide in like 1991.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Likely because he was that fugging lame.
Great Spidey villian's assessments Matt :lol: :lol: :lol:
Vulture is especially bad.
I can't believe someone can possibly say that Spiderman's rogues gallery even comes close to comparing to the Bats. You say that Batman fight clowns and female clowns, people who set up riddles and such. Well, thats all fine, but when those clowns think the ultimate joke is to force you to cross a line you would never cross and kill them, by doing whatever it takes, from blowing up your young partner in crime fighting to gassing an entire city to killing the commisioner's new wife. That to me is fantastic storytelling, seeing just what else the Joker will do to push Batman over the edge. The Riddler forces Batman to use his vaunted detective skills.
Meanwhile what does Spiderman have to face? Beyond Greeny and Venom, there isn't really all that much there. Thats why they have gone back to the Osbourns so many times. Don't get me wrong, I love Spiderman, but he has nobody to challenge him, and thats basically why I stopped reading his comics.
As for that trailer, May 2 can't get here fast enough.
It's up to the writers to make these villains interesting. Scorpion and Rhino are not a like. Rhino is a full blown mutant while Scorpion was tricked by Jonason to become a Spidy hunter. Scorpion has a lot of deep issues because of the reason he was forced in to becoming what he was. He had nothing left.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Chameleon could also make a great villain because he's not your typical "I'm crazy and stronger than you!" villain. He fights using politics and confidential information. He can fight, but you have to use more of your brain than brawn to stop him from committing his evil deeds.
Kingpin could work but he's already been done for DD (and you're right, he is more of a DD villain).
Yes. I agree that Venom should be the next antagonist to the spiderman movie universe.Quote:
S3 Venom or no go. No one else can come close to the danger he inspires, the damage he can inflict or the mayhem that can ensue.
Actually the animal tendencies were driving him crazy... which is probably why he thought he was an animal.Quote:
True. Especially since he comiitted suicide in like 1991.
Likely because he was that fugging lame.
My point is that, when taken out of context, all the super villains sound stupid. But put in their habitat and written up they perform well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
It's like taking a kangaroo and putting him in the jungle. He just seems out of place and goofy. It just doesn't work.
Riddler - A man who talks in riddles as his main weapon. The villain equivalent to a rubics cube.
Two Face - A split personality with both personalities being evil?
Penguin - A penguin man who fights good with an umbrella. The old man of the super hero world.
Joker - A demented clown-esque villain who uses deadly gags to capture a Bat.
Bane - See Scorpion ;)
Poison Ivy - Controls people using pollen from her poores. A freak lab accident and environmentallist combined in to a lethal combo. (this actually does sound scarey) Pesticides would do nicely.
Rah As Ghul - The oldest human ever who stays alive by bathing once a week. Get off my god damned lawn.
Catwoman - A crazy woman who thinks she's a cat. We just need a Dog woman to fight her.
Mr. Freeze - A man with a dome over his god damned head. He lives in a giant portable freezer. Luke warm is his weakness!
All of these villains sound poor when taken out of the Batman universe.
Ah but then who's fault is that? All of Bat's villains have been built upon over time, while Spideys haven't really. I mean, even in that crap tv show in the 60s, Batman's villians were still made to be a threat to Batman. Most of Spiderman's problems wind up being "gee how will I save that kid without my identity being revealed." The only people who were ever a true threat to Spiderman are the ones who knew who he was. Venom and Goblin.
Batman's villians MAY sound silly outside his universe, but come on, inside it they are awesome.
Spiderman's villians sound silly inside his universe AND outside it. THATS the problem.
Dude, it's apparent that outside of some general knowledge on their powers, you know absolutely shit about these guys. Especially since you got Morbius totally fucking wrong. Every single one of them have proven to be a match and better for Spider-Man. Except Vulture. I can't argue his lameness.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
I could do a play by play like that on any superhero's rogues, but that would be pointless, and it's not really being fair to the characters.
The way you go on about these particular villains, are you sure you're even a Spider-Man fan? Or are you just a Venom fan?
Well, he went out with one of the best Spider-Man stories ever told.Quote:
True. Especially since he comiitted suicide in like 1991.
Likely because he was that fugging lame.
Honestly, I hate venom, but he's the best villian they have that hasn't been used. Put any of those other guys in there, and there is 0 chance I'm going to see a 3rd spiderman movie.
I dunno about that storyline being good, what would some other good ones be? My spiderman is rusty.
And, I'm sorry, if that's one of the best Spiderman storylines, there's a pretty big difference between that and things like Batman: Year One, The Killing Joke, Year Two:Reaper and the pinnicle of comics, The Dark Knight Returns.
No they don't. You're a Batman fanboy which is fine. But none of Batmans villains sound any less goofy then Spidermans when outside of context. If you went down the street and asked people they'd be split. It's about the writing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
In a movie you can't rely on comic books to drive someone, you have 2 hours of storytelling to do that. Or in Spidermans case multiple film deals. So picking a villain like Venom, Doc Ock and The Goblins work well and why many of Batmans villains had to be paired up to carry the role.
Cult rules as well,
I'm not a Batman fanboy. I grew up loving Spiderman, I only discovered how awesome Batman was thanks to the animated series.
And you can't be blaming Joel Shumacher's retarded vision on Batmans villains. There is a reason they are remaking the Batman movie franchise, and it's not because the villains sucked. It's because Shumacher was such a retard when it came to filming the 3rd and 4th movies.
Put Frank Miller or Alan Moore on Spider-Man and you'll have genre-defining stories like those. That Reaper story was quite terrible, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
You'll have quite a few people disagree with you about The Dark Knight Returns. Personally, it's one of my all-time favorites, but alot of people think that this story is what RUINED Batman.
The pinnacle of comics for me would be Watchmen or Kirby Fantastic Four.
As for the trailer... kickass!
Fantastic Four has always been ass. It's between Watchmen, Dark Knight Returns, and Gaiman's Sandman.
For the record, Year 2 was ass. OOH, BATMAN WITH A GUN! Stoofoo, it sucks. Spawn-boy's shit art for the last two issues of it drag it even further down.
That's my whole point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
It's not that the villains are bad it's that the writing behind them that makes it seem like they stink. We're in agreement, thanks.
This is the best thread I've witnessed in quite some time.
They're wrong. Not opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
I wish they'd of made The Human Torch his own man. His powers and character were very neat. Dr. Doom vs. The Torch would've been an amazing series without all the other nonsense.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
They always seemed to get captured yet put in situations where they could obviously escape.
Fair enough. But I will say this one last thing, the Spiderman villains have been poorly written for so long its hard to look at them seriously. The batman ones on the other hand, while at times goofy or what have you, are still quite capable of being taken seriously, at least by me. It would probably take a complete rewrite of the spiderman storys to get me to pay attention to them again.
Batman:TAS redeemed pretty much every villain to grace its screen. Spiderman has yet to have that happen.
At this point in time Bat's rogue gallery > Spidey's rogue gallery. That could change, but I doubt it'll happen anytime soon.
I'm at a loss for this one, which superseeds any and all Spiderman concearns, but please. Someone tell me how The Dark Knight Returns RUINED Batman.
Please. Someone.
A lot of people still remember the Riddler from the Adam West Batman. Abuse will happen, but it doesn't matter when you're adapting to film. IF something is written cool people will like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
I can't, to be honest. Other than suggesting that Batman's cover is blown at the end. But really, thats like an alternate timeline anyway.
Maybe because no other story could be written afterwards that held up to its brilliance.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Best I can do, that.
I'm personally talking more in movieverse than comicverse. I don't read a lot of comics but I watch a lot of movies.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechDeus
The first Spiderman movie was good. But so was the first Batman movie (sans the shitty Joker backstory), and this next Spiderman flick is going to prove to me if Spiderman can hold the ground it lasso'ed itself the first go through.
Batman Origins looks great.
I think they're both good for the mood of each series.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechDeus
But Batman has Scarecrow and Joker and they both kick ass as villains. Two of the best. X-Men has the most super villains of worthy note, but that series has so many characters it's almost not fair. Shit hits the fans theory could apply to this series.
Poor Collossus.
Neither did Tim Burton. The movie character Batman has nothing to do with the comic and animated series Batman. Nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Yea exactly. I'm separating the two somewhat.
Burton admitted to Kevin Smith in their little fight scenario that he never read any Batman comics. He doesn't read comics. Kevin Smith told him that explained his movies a whole lot.
But I do read Spiderman comics and think the movies did a pretty good job of adapting it to the silver screen. It will never be perfect.
Batman's rogue's gallery is certainly more twisted and cooler than Spiderman's more colorful lot. Still, I think Spiderman has some really cool villains when used right.
Recently Ultimate Spiderman seems to be really making Spiderman as well as his villains cool as ever.
Oh and Venom should definitely be in the third.
That's exactly right Will. They're different and fit their own scenarios.
Batman has always been darker with imagery and metaphor where was more colorful but handled much younger and brittle subject matter for the hero on a consistent basis.
I don't know who to choose. I think I like Batman as a hero more, but Spiderman is still awesome. Didn't Batman kick Supermans ass? What episode was that in?
At your service.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
See, before Dark Knight Returns, Batman was somewhat human. He had a personality, friends (not allies). He had emotions, he smiled. And he didn't master 127 forms of martial arts in 10 years, nor was he EVER able to kick Superman's ass (actually, he still hasn't. Only in Dark Knight Returns and Dark Knight Strikes Again did he really lay it on Supes, but alot of today's Bat fans seem to think that he did in the Hush arc).
Some fans of Batman claim that since DKR came along, Batman is now a cold, callous metahuman with a deus ex machina for every situation, that being, he needs time to plan.
Now granted, and I'll reiterate because I know how this forum loves to dogpile on the unpopular opinion (even when the majority of the dogpilers are fairly ignorant on the subject), I don't necessarily subscribe to this theory. Batman has become more grim, sure, but I think we've gotten better stories out of it. For a period of nearly 10 years, Batman was becoming a stale book, with LAME-O villains (this is the era in which I could easily destroy any comparison of Batman/Spider-Man foes) and stagnant stories. When DKR came along, Batman gained a different perspective, and from that sprang forth the kickass character that he once was and is now.
Don't believe me? Visit www.comicbookresources.com and check out the Batman forums there. It won't be long before you hear someone ragging DKR and what it did to Batman.
Hey Will! Long time, no speak! I still have that sketch cover Titans for ya! You probably have it by now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
Anyway, Batman's foes may be more twisted, but I wouldn't necessarily call them cooler. Before Dark Knight, Batman's foes (the ones that are so great today) were rather silly, just as some of Spidey's were (Rocket Racer, Big Wheel). But after the mid-80s, all of Batman's foes were written to be edgier. At the same time, Spider-Man's foes also began developing character, and with Ultimate (which I don't read), Spidey's foes are being even more updated.
And, I still say nay to Venom in Spidey3 (though it may happen). Maybe by 4, the timing will seem right.
Superman entrusted Luthor's kryptonite ring to Batman to be used in the event of Superman going rogue/being controlled.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
If Superman believes Batman capable of taking him down, who are you to argue?
Again, that's AFTER Dark Knight. Before Dark Knight, it wasn't happening. And even with it, Batman STILL didn't beat Superman. Besides, I didn't say that he COULDN'T. I said that he DIDN'T.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
Hey man it certainly has been a while. I have that Teen Titans #1 issue though but thanks alot ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Spidey villains became more developed but still not quite the way Batman's has IMO. Nothing really came along in the years aside from the Ultimate stuff that redefined Spiderman but his current book by JMS is certainly developing Peter himself. Maybe Mark Millar will revitalize him in the mainstream universe(I doubt it) who knows.Quote:
Anyway, Batman's foes may be more twisted, but I wouldn't necessarily call them cooler. Before Dark Knight, Batman's foes (the ones that are so great today) were rather silly, just as some of Spidey's were (Rocket Racer, Big Wheel). But after the mid-80s, all of Batman's foes were written to be edgier. At the same time, Spider-Man's foes also began developing character, and with Ultimate (which I don't read), Spidey's foes are being even more updated.
The only villains that I can really say that have been great ones to Spiderman are Green Goblin, Venom, Rhino(to an extent), Electro, Sandman, Hydro Man(I barely see him anymore), Kingpin, Doctor Octopus, Carnage(when used right maybe in a Seven'ish serial killer way), Chameleon, Mysterio and Hobgoblin.
Together as the Sinister 6 they make the ultimate villain team against Spiderman which was a really awesome story of him overcoming the odds.
I thought Venom being in the 3rd was also a bad idea but I figure now what the hell, just go for broke since it also the last film to probably use the current cast and go out with a bang. He really is the only other villain people want to see so they might as well use him and use a non-convoluted way of introducing him to film continuity. Just imagine all the awesome special effects and fights and characterization that could come out of it.Quote:
And, I still say nay to Venom in Spidey3 (though it may happen). Maybe by 4, the timing will seem right.
Only other villain that I can possibly see Raimi use is Harry as Green Goblin with the Sandman(who would make an awesome visual like in The Mummy sand) but they'd have to come up with something really dynamite if they want to use them which I wouldn't.
I though Venom was being in the 3rd since ... the man walking down with Mary Jane(in the trailer) is the man that will be going up in space and bringing with him the symbiote. I think they are going with the Spiderman Animated series version for the Venom storyline.
In fairness to everyone ... I read all the arguments, and I have to say that Batman and Spiderman vilians DO NOT compare. Why? Most if not all of Spiderman villians have fought OTHER Marvel Universe heroes. While Batman's stay in Batman's universe. YOU DO NOT SEE JOKER IN SUPERMAN'S ... unless you see Batman as a guest. BUT you DO SEE Rhino fighting DDevil or Lizard taking on Punisher ... every now and then.
Point ... Marvel Universe is just that ONE universe. You might see FF in the background of a Spiderman fight or what have you. YOU WILL NEVER SEE Batmandriving through Metropolis ... unless Superman is announced as a guest. I mean for heavens sake FF's building is in NY and thats where Spiderman and Daredevil are located. So, you really can't compare the two Rogue Galleries ... you can't.
Until, the Hush storyline ... the majority of the Batman villians stayed in the confins of Gothem City.
Point is this ... Both are good in there respective Universes. Spiderman's have more of a Universal feel cause thats what they do ... battle everyone in the universe. They have a more encompassing role ... while Batman's ... chills mainly in Gothem. If you compare the two its like comparing a Ford Taurus to a Bentley ... you can't.
[QUOTE=Advocate05]I though Venom was being in the 3rd since ... the man walking down with Mary Jane(in the trailer) is the man that will be going up in space and bringing with him the symbiote. I think they are going with the Spiderman Animated series version for the Venom storyline.
QUOTE]
Doesn't the guy who goes up in the rocket in the comics turn into Wolf-Man, and isn't he JJ's son? It would be a good excuse to have the symbiote come down, though.
btw, here's all the Spidey news at Superherohype-
http://www.superherohype.com/spider-man/
One interesting thing mentioned is that Sony has said they've planned for up to 6 Spider-Man movies. That'd provide enough time to develop a Venom story, now wouldn't it? Hell, cap off the 6th one with Sinister Six showing up. One thing mentioned I didn't like was the fucking Distillers rerecording the Spiderman theme song (which theme btw, the Ramone's song?). God, I hope that's not used in the movie, especially not during. One thing I really dislike about current superhero movies is that NONE of them have good music themes. The Superman and Batman movie themes were godly, and easily rememberable. Can anyone recall the Spiderman, X-Men, or Hulk theme musics? I also hate having to squirm through n-th grade modern rock tracks during some of these movies, and I'm really not looking forward to hearing some Courtney Love soundalike struggle through a Ramones song.
Haha!!Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
It could be good. They should have the old song blend in to the new song in a montage or something. I personally like the old songs. The old Batman theme, as you said, put chills through your spine. It dripped of justice in a dark tone.
I'd like to see a show called Superhero where they can explore all the different superheroes regardless of licence or company. A middle man which puts all the Superheros in the same light... so to speak. That way we can get some of the lesser known superheroes in episodes like The Human Torch or explore some enemies like Omega Red.
Actually Joker has appeared quite a few times in Superman's title with story 'Emperor Joker', and in 'Joker: Last Laugh' which involved all the Superman books and even JLA. Even Deathstroke made his way into the Superman universe when Superman was infected with a virus. Penguin is in the Robin title as well so even Batman villains cross over. I personally think it would be better if they stayed in their places unless I want to see villains play off of other heroes which is usually fun like in the JLA cartoon.Quote:
Originally Posted by Advocate05
Reading this made me dumber. It's a crock of shit. Hey, you remember when Luthor became president of the US? Yeah, that kind of affected everyone. There're many examples, but I'm too tired to type them out for and have them fall on deaf eyes. Or something.Quote:
Originally Posted by Advocate05
And DC has a far richer universe and history, with heroes actually aging and being succeeded in turn. I really like that kind of thing.
Yeah you did:Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Quote:
nor was he EVER able to kick Superman's ass
Is Ultimate actually any good?Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
So is Joker vs. Superman any good or just Batman just eventually show up and take Joker back to Gotham?
Yeah it's damn good stuff. It starts off fresh with the spider biting Peter in his high school years.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechDeus
Tons of great and funny dialogue(the issues where he first meets the X-Men are fucking hilarious) and he cracks some great fat jokes on Kingpin. There's also very good characterization between him Mary Jane and the rest of his high school crew and best of all the villains. It's a smart, entertaining, fun read, if you want head on over to Marvel's website at the dotcomics section for a test run here.
At the risk of trying to get too crazy, there's also another new Spiderman book coming out with writer Mark Millar(from The Authority, Ultimate X-Men, and The Ultimates(basically a comic of sort of a movie version of the Avengers) and artist Terry Dodson and inker Rachel Dodson. It's also on the website to the right.
It's in current continuity but anyone can read them with no problem. Seems like alot of Spidey's staple villains will appear in the series, I'm loving the art just judging from the preview already.
Well in both times that Joker showed up cosmically powered so it wasn't like he wasn't like just a regular guy. I'll have to re-read it to get into more detail but 'Emperor Joker' is a pretty entertaining story(Bizarro being a highlight) though even if it was a bit too long winded.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Oh like Dragon Ball Z.
... *rimshot*
Yes, of course he did. He was Batman. Batman isn't the Alter Ego of Bruce Wayne, Bruce Wayne is the alter ego of Batman.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Take a man who has dedicated his adult life to something, and after 10 years without it he's not going to be happy and smilely. Without Batman, Bruce Wayne is nothing, so why would he smile?
Who said he mastered that many forms in 10 years? In TDKR, he's the same, only older. Were he that devastating, he would crush everyone, which does not happen.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
I think you are missing the point of the final fight in TDKR. It's less about physical and more mental. Even with Superman in a weakend state (Nuclear Blast and all), and Armored up Batman, he's not going to literally kill Superman, even if he wanted to. He wants to break him.
You take away Superman's powers, as Batman does, and Batman, even in a weakend state of age will still beat the shit out of a normal man who has relied on power for all of his life and can't do much without it. Batman is paranoid and has had decades to think about the day that he would have to fight Superman.
The point that Batman is trying to get Superman to, is where he will forget all of his cub scout bullshit and be so angry that will try to really hurt the Batman.
Batman dies = Superman is fucked for life and thinks about how Batman was the one man to push his buttons so much he made him lose control.
Batman lives = Superman is fucked for life and thinks about how Batman was the one man to push his buttons so much he made him lose control.
Then, they need to read TKDR again. As much as Batman thinks he wants to be alone, the main theme of TKDR is one man coming to terms with his role in a city, when it's past his time. He might portray the brooding character, but his decision to run around with a 13 year old girl pretty much singels that he's desperate to have an understudy/student to mentor.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
This is why at the beginning, you have 'This would be a good death', because Bruce Wayne (like Spike Spegel) thinks he's dead and just going through the motions. By the end, when he's finally realized that being the Batman wasn't the single thing that his life was missing, instead, it was having the direct ability to affect change in the world (In this case, by becoming a teacher of sorts and passing on all his knowledge to those kids that hang around him).
Cue: This will be a good life, good enough...
Batman is supposed to be dark. This isn't a story about a kid that solves crimes in-between doing Spanish homework and taking out the trash for his dear old aunt.
It's a story about a boy, who is so fucked up over watching his parents die in front of him, that he dedicates his life to protecting others in some thinly veiled attempt at a never acheievable revenge, who is basically psychotic/schziophrenic/what have you and isn't going to trust anyone that does not know him pre-murders (read: Alfred only).
Now who the fuck would smile with that kind of shit in their life?
God damn, this thread blew way up didn't it...
1st thing to understand about Batman: he is insane. He was driven insane by his parent's murder. He is not a normal boy, nor is he easily capable of showing emotion or even having relationships with others.
Matt's rundown of DKR is pretty spot on... one thing I'd like to add is that in Frank Miller's original script, the Superman fight was supposed to be Batman's suicide, basically. The government ends up capturing him and placing him in a hospital under watch. He then uses his IV drip needle to cut open his arm and kill himself with a cyanide pill he kept there before the guards can get to him.
I like the training of the SOB's ending better, though.
And never speak of the DKR sequel. Ever.
This rumored DKR Sequel is like that Godfather III some people say they've seen.
Personally, I think they are full of shit cause no such things exist, but that's just me.
Apparently, it was mentioned in one of his books that he's mastered 127 forms of martial arts. S'funny since actual martial arts masters take a number of years to master 1 form.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
And no, I don't have the book. I think it had something to do with Shiva, though. I'll ask around the comicbookresources forum and find out which issue it is.
I'm not missing any point. I said Batman laid it on Supes in the DKR and DKSA, and that's it. I never alluded to the why's and methods of Bruce's attack. I know Bruce will never kill Supes. That goes without saying.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
That might have been true 10 years ago, but Superman has had training from the warlord Mongul and centuries worth of training in a short time (sorta like Goku training in +100 Gravity) in one of his more recent stories. Superman doesn't have to rely on his powers to kick ass anymore. If you take them away, you're now fighting a man who is trained in several forms of armed and unarmed combat. I'm not sure if Bruce is aware of this, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
I don't recall that ever being Batman's objective or methodology of combatting Clark. Where was this stated?Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Bruce knows full well that if Superman wanted to, he could kill Bats inside of a second. Even with the ring, Superman isn't instantly powerless. It takes time. All Superman needs is 1 second. So why would Bruce want Superman to get to that point?
Superman doesn't kill. End of story. No amount of brainwashing or anger has ever gotten him to that point. In fact, the one time he thought he killed someone, he didn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Superman's put the hurt on Batman plenty of times without spending the rest of his life mulling over the fact that Batman pushed his buttons.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Batman trusts Leslie Tompkins, Superman and James Gordon implicitly and completely. They're post-murders (in Leslie's case, she used to work with Bruce's dad, but Bruce didn't know that until after his parents were murdered).Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Let's keep this in the context in which I was referring.Quote:
Originally Posted by MechDeus
I said before Dark Knight, Batman was never able to beat Superman.
After Dark Knight (which is in line with the conversation, as Matt wanted to know how DKR ruined Batman), Superman gave Batman the K-ring. And since having it, Batman still hasn't beaten Superman.
I'm sure he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
If they bullshitted the story around now so that Superman never killed Zed, that is utter shit.Quote:
Superman doesn't kill. End of story. No amount of brainwashing or anger has ever gotten him to that point. In fact, the one time he thought he killed someone, he didn't.
This is from the 10th annyversary edition of TDKR. Mzo is close, but the ending is a little different.
ACT III [pp 25 -36]
At an army hospital, Haggard shows his identification to an armed guard, then enters a room, in which lies Bruce Wayne, plugged into all sorts of life support machinery. He lies still, eyes open, staring forward. Clark Kent leans by a window, intense. Haggard smiles at Clark, holds his hand out. Clark ignores the hand. He's stabalized, says Clark. You'll have to watch out for suicide attempts. When you question him, you are not to harm him in any way. Haggard's smile is awkward. Kent, he says, you're needed in the midwest. The crop failure's causing serious trouble. It's practically civil war. Clark grimaces. It's much worse than you told me, Clark says. And I let you do it. Hey, says Haggard, it was the Russians, remember? Clark leaves.
Alone with Bruce, Haggard grows more confident. You're not going to trail, he says. Or to jail. As a matter of fact, you'll probably get your very own Agency. Once we're done questioning you, of course. We've got lots to learn from you. Bruce looks at Haggard, and grins, amused. We're going to be great friends, says Haggard.
On TV, Lola Chong announces that Federal sources have divulged that Batman is Bruce Wayne--and is in critical condition. Doctors are not hopeful. In a related story, Wayne Manor has been destroyed. An enormous cave has been discovered beneath the site of the Wayne Manor, apparently the Batman's base of operations. However, whatever secrets it might have revealed have been lost, burned to ashes. The cave's only entrance has been sealed by authorities.
The Batmobile rumbes out of an abandoned subway station. Robin presses a button on its controls. An inner lid seals teh cab, making it airtight. Sher drives it into the river. It rumbles along the river bed. A flashing signal appears on the screen. Robin frowns. I'm running late, she thinks.
A nurse checks Bruce's vital signs, then lifts his head, fluffs his pillow, and sets his head back down. Bruce smiles at her, warmly. She kisses his forehead. A lot of use love you, she says, and leaves the room.
Alone, Bruce becomes alert. His face is eager. He sits up in bed, and pulls a tube from his arm. His arm begins to bleed. Ignoring it, he gouges his forearm with the needle from the tube, cutting through his flesh. It's very painful, and bloody, but he looks like he's enjoying it. He digs into this harm with his fingers, extracts a small capsule. He puts it in his mouth and bites. He shudders, from head to foot. He arches his back. His vital signs go wild, the stop. His cardiogram becomes a straight red line.
On TV, it is reported that Bruce Wayne died in surgery. A surgeon is interviewed, breifly.
Bruce Wayne lies on a slab in the hostital morgue. Haggard screams at his agents, points at the corpse. Bruce is naked; there are no marks of surgery on him. An agent, looking harassed, points to the cut on Bruce's forearm. Jesus, he says to Haggard. We checked him from head to toe. We checked his teeth, and every oriface in his body. He had the cyanide hidden under his goddamn skin. You want an autopsy, as a bored attendant. Forget it, says Haggard. Son of a bitch is of no use to us now.
{then, later}
The remains of Wayne Manor seem tiny on the floor of the Batcave. The ashes that were one Batman's aresenal coat a patch of the cave floor. But the cave itself is enourmous beyond belief. It stretches back, and down into the earth, for miles. Far down, far from what was once Batman's headquarters, a hundred torches burn.
Lit by the torches, on a throne made of living oak, sits the Batman. Robin stands at his side. Behind them, in military formation, holding the torches, stand the Sons of the Batman.
Bruce Wayne is dead. The Dark Knight Lives.
And he has learned that there is more wrong with the world than crime.
Neither of these 2 are in TDKR.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Story post TDKR has no bearing on TDKR.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
[QUOTE=bloodyarts]
I don't recall that ever being Batman's objective or methodology of combatting Clark. Where was this stated?
In TDKR, of course.
I think you need to re-read TDKR.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
1) Superman was just near a massive nuclear explosion, and not really at full power.
"That's right, Clark. Scan the area. Bathe it with X-Rays...activate those six Hunter missiles I've worked so hard on.
This is a powers test. ...I want to see how much of you survived that nuclear explosion. He's have to be at full speed to dodge them. He isn't. I watch them kick him around for a minute. I've had worse times."
Batman is simply going to pick apart Superman, piece by piece, smack him around a little, get him really pissed of, where he is finally angry enough to kill Batman, then hit him with Kryptonite and beat him some more. He couldn't kill superman if he tried.
Still, he'll do to Superman what no one other human (who is physically nil compared to this alien fucker) will ever do.
Make Superman his bitch and then choke him and talk shit. Aw, yeah.
Not even in Kingdom Come?Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Yeah, that makes a lot of sense.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Hey, Mike Tyson, you just kicked the shit out of 100 men, how do you feel?
Fantastic.
Hey, Mike Tyson, you just got beaten to a bloody stump and then ass fucked by a one legged blind man, who is functionally retarded, has 3 fingers and missing 1/2 his brain.
Mike can't talk right now, he's busy pouting like a bitch.
Why would a god feel bad about beating up a human that it takes him no more effort than it takes to cut a good fart?
He wouldn't.
Would you feel bad if a 3 year old kicked the shit out of you, more than if someone your physical equal did? I bet you would.
No, They trust Batman, he does not trust them. Batman fully trust only Alfred, and all these other things you allued to, are not in TDKR.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
How so?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
I believe it was mentioned in an article that we may not have seen the last of Zod.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
Um, he's Batman. He just does.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Tee hee, I called him Zed. I suck. But seriously, that was a huge event in Superman's development, one that is referenced to (much to my chagrin) hundreds of times... changing that is like, like bring Barry Allen back to life, which is something horrible that I expect from Marvel.Quote:
I believe it was mentioned in an article that we may not have seen the last of Zod.
It should also be noted that TDKR isn't DC canon... it's practically an Elseworlds before there even was an Elseworlds line. It's completely stand-alone and, as such, is able to be a brilliant and complete work of literary fiction without worrying about the kind of crap regular monthly writers have to deal with.
It can't be denied that TDKR completely revamped Bats, though...
Look at an older Batman story, something like Denny O'Neil's early Ra's stories. Remember when Batman decided to take down the Demon once and for all? And that champion skiing girl hit him with her skis? That was horrible. Would that happen to post-TKDR Batman? No, he'd hear her coming and disarm her without hurting her.
I think it's a change for the better.
We're talking about Batman, right? Not just DKR? Why doesn't any story post-DKR have bearing?Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
I don't see anything here that says "I want Superman to really try to kill me".Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Again, that's simply not going to happen. This is more your interpretation (or hope) than what actually happened.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Are we forgetting Lex Luthor?Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
No. Wonder Woman killed Magog. Superman went into self-imposed exile because he FAILED to stop Magog.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Hey, you're the one that said Supes would be fucked for life mulling over the fact that Batman pushed his buttons. You're only agreeing with my statement here.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
No, Batman does trust them. He's stated it before. He even attempted to reveal his identity to Gordon, but Gordon didn't want to know. Besides, Gordon had an idea long before then anyway.Quote:
No, They trust Batman, he does not trust them. Batman fully trust only Alfred, and all these other things you allued to, are not in TDKR.
And again with DKR... If you're only talking about events that transpired in DKR, please let me know. This whole time, I thought we were discussing Batman's entire universe, not just the controversial, non-canon one.
I'm not agreeing with your statement.
How would a GOD be upset at crushing a MAN?
He would not.
If a MAN beats a GOD, the GOD is going to remember that shit.
How is that agreeing with you?
I know what you're trying to get across but...Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
I'm getting confused. Are we on the same page?Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
I'm guessing that whole "man beats god" spiel is relating to the, "Batman lives, Superman's fucked/Batman dies, Superman's fucked" hurl. But how would that god (or Superman) be fucked for life? I replied that Supes wouldn't (and hasn't). I don't know what that whole Tyson scenario was about.
Wow, this thread is so hijacked. If I'm to blame, I really apologize. I usually lurk more than post, but since I'm into comics more than games I thought I could add something to the thread. Instead, I've ruined it.
Sorry, Green. :sweat:
It's not like the thread would have been booming anyway.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Batman should be the Official Hero of TNL.
Not until he starts being in some better games. As far as I can remember, he's only got 3 good games under his belt; Batman (Genesis), Batman Returns (SNES) and Adventures of Batman and Robin (Gen & SNES).Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
Spidey's got...
Batman should be the Official Hero of TNL.
Ha!
Don't forget the original NES Batman. Check out my sig! HE THROWS THE JOKER OFF THE ROOF!
Not at all. I haven't kept up with any comic books since I was a kid other than the occasional trade here and there, so all the debating has been pretty interesting. I'm familiar with the more non-canon Batman stuff, so hearing the other side has been pretty interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
We should put up a poll, either Bats or Itagaki:)Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
Spiderman the movie and Spiderman 1 and 2 were all good games. And Maximum Carnage and the regular Spiderman before that was fucking great as well. Not to mention Marvel vs. DC in which he kicked ass too.Quote:
Originally Posted by bloodyarts
Hmm I thought the Rize of Sin Tzu game was a pretty good quality title for 20 as well as the Dark Vengance which was average.
We'll see how Spiderman 2 the movie game will fare compared to any future game Batman might have.