Major League Baseball - Red Sox WS champs XD

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23 Oct 2004, 12:43 AM
Stone

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rich

I'm sure we can both admit Mussina is the much better pitcher than Wakefield.

This is not as obvious as anyone should think. Look at their 2004 regular season stats, their ERA. They're fairly comparable.

Wakefield was last year's ALCS MVP + one inevitable home run given up by a team that had already been thoroughly defeated. He is a workhorse who can throw an unbelievable number of innings when asked to, and he is always ready to contribute. He's been the secret creamy middle of every good Red Sox team for years.

This was Moose's best postseason - he is not the most reliable guy in the fall. Moose is an arguable #1 at best, IMO, Wake is a #3 that can hit #2 status at times. Mussina is a better player, but not much better.
23 Oct 2004, 12:46 AM
Tracer

How the Rocket gets paid.

Code:

2004 Houston Astros $ 5,000,000 Pitcher 2003 New York Yankees $ 10,100,000 Pitcher 1998 Toronto Blue Jays $ 8,250,000 Pitcher 1996 Boston Red Sox $ 5,500,000 Pitcher
23 Oct 2004, 12:48 AM
Stone

Didn't Clemens get a very backloaded contract or something, though? They're not really only paying him $5 mil for this year, right? If that's true, that's the best pitching deal of the year.
23 Oct 2004, 12:54 AM
Tracer

We also signed Pettitte for 5 Million. The deal was that Clemens wouldn't go on every road game. Both are from Houston and wanted to finish thier career here. It's also why Biggio is talking retirement (if he isn't resigned).
23 Oct 2004, 12:55 AM
dave is ok

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone

Didn't Clemens get a very backloaded contract or something, though? They're not really only paying him $5 mil for this year, right? If that's true, that's the best pitching deal of the year.

I think they are. Just because he wanted to pitch at home, he didnt have to pitch too many away games.
23 Oct 2004, 12:56 AM
Tracer

http://asp.usatoday.com/sports/baseb...m=21&year=2004

It's missing Backe (paid 300,000) and Beltran (9 million). We no longer have Dotel or the over-paid Hidalgo. Rest assured they'll offer Bagwell like numbers to Beltran and probably start paying Brandon Backe respectably (as well as Lidge).
23 Oct 2004, 01:18 AM
SpoDaddy

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone

The Red Sox put him on waivers because he fucked up last year. He got the message and became perhaps the most liked player in the Red Sox clubhouse. You are definitely right that Jeter proved that he was better than Nomar this year - Nomar is a sissy. Jeter made a couple of defensive errors this postseason, right? I think his D is way overrated - you leap into the stands one year and then all of a sudden you're Doug Mztypltzkwcz for the rest of your career.

Not really, Jeter hasn't made a costly error in a postseason in years. He made like 3 errors that didn't mean anything this postseason (which is really unusual for him) but he also made like 10 really big time plays, over the shoulder willie mays style catches and whatnot. He's not Omar Visquel, I'm not claiming that he is, he's just a solid defender that makes huge plays in huge spots, like gunning down Johnny Damon in game 7.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone

See, Spo is a real Yankees fan, and real Yankees fans get a bad rap because of all of the Yankee fan assholes who don't know anything about the team, and like to wear 1918 shirts and talk about how "the Babe is going to pull them through".

Absolutely, there's a lot of frontrunner annoying phony Yankee fans out there that give the die hard fans a bad rap. There's also a lot of phony hipster Red Sox fans out there that give real Red Sox fans a bad rap. Case in point: I was in a Bennigans with my girlfriend watching game 3, with lots of Yankee fans and Red Sox fans.

The real Red Sox fans were sitting there with their heads in their hands, mortified. The real Yankee fans were sort of ignoring the game, feeling bad for the Red Sox fans and just being content that the Yankees were definately going to win the game. The phony asshole Yankee fans were running around screaming in the faces of the Red Sox fans that were in obvious misery, to the point where I was really embarassed. They were all wearing their A-Rod jerseys chanting "A-Rod A-Rod!" even when he wasn't on the field. The real Yankee fans were sitting quietly, smiling and happy, in their Jeter and Rivera jerseys. Phony fans left before the game was over, or stayed just to talk shit at Red Sox fans. Real Yankee fans stayed because they wanted to see who'd pitch mop up and therefore who'd be rested for game 4, real Yankee fans were already worried about who the hell was going to pitch for the Yankees in game 4 because they probably wouldn't score 19 runs again.

The phony hipster Red Sox fans are mostly 20somethings that think it's really hip to root for the "cursed team", and think they gain universal credibility as sports fans because they root for the Red Sox. Most phony Red Sox fans don't even really care about baseball, so the constant losing doesn't even hurt them. It's why they signed up in the first place. When the Red Sox were getting killed in game 3, the phony Red Sox fans were boisterously chugging their beers and chanting "Yankees suck". They were almost happy that they'd now have "sports fan credibility" when cheering on the Patriots and their 49th consecutive win later in the week. They weren't mortified, they expected this to happen. Phony Cubs fans are exactly the same way, but fewer in numbers because this sort of bullshit lends itself to college kids most and Boston is collegeworld.

A real Red Sox fan doesn't EXPECT the Red Sox to lose, they DREAD it. They're terrified and paranoid of it, but they hold out hope no matter what anyway. It's a terrible and painful blow to them every time the Red Sox lose. After all these years they still cringe at the name Aaron Boone. A real Red Sox fan is thrilled that the Red Sox beat the Yankees but is TERRIFIED that they still might not win the World Series. A phony Red Sox fan isn't even going to really try to watch all the World Series games, to them they don't have any more Yankee fans to fight with so the season's mostly over. Phony's hate the Yankees, real fans hate the Yankees BECAUSE they love the Red Sox. Phony fans wear their Red Sox gear like badges, real fans wear them like tribal scars.

A real Yankee fan smiles when he hears the name "Kevin Maas" or "Sam Militello". A real Yankee fan still can't bear to watch Andy Petitte in an Astro's jersey, but still wants the Astros to win just for Andy. A real Yankee fan sees Kevin Brown and it brings them visions of Jack McDowell and 1995 vs. Seattle. Real Yankee fans follow the Yankees with the same class and intensity that real Yankees play with.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone

Hell, I bet one of my employees this - if the Red Sox won, I'd shave off my playoff beard. If the Yanks won, he'd shave off his goatee, just a dumb, random, off the cuff bet. We made the bet after the Yanks were up 3-0. He made the bet probably because he never thought in a million years the Red Sox would come back, but he hasn't shaved his beard off yet. That represents bad Yankees fans to me. The place I work is full of them - taunting me constantly last week, and then being quiet or sulking the day afterwards. Half the people in the building wore Yankees gear Wednesday morning - I saw a single hat the day afterwards. You wear your stuff after a big loss like that to show you're still a fan.

The other thing that got me about this ALCS was the fact that none of the stuff that always happens to the Red Sox happened to the Red Sox this year. First, it would have been like the Red Sox to go up 2 games (maybe 3) against the Yanks. The two Ortiz home runs in game 4 and game 5 were the sort of crushing blows a Yanks team would deliver. That splits-catch Mientikevkzkslkthiz made at the end of game 7 was the sort of catch no Red Sox player has ever made - it should have been an error that scored a run.

I agree. 1918 is a Yankee fan's shield against obnoxious Red Sox fans, it's not to be used unless provoked by something like "Yankees Suck". And if you're going to make a bet on your team you have to follow through. On October 21st, the day after Mantle's birthday, I felt OBLIGATED to wear my Yankees gear. To comfort my fellow Yankees fans, to show my continued support and that life will go on, and because as a sports fan you have to take your medicine. If you're going to run around in Yankee gear when they win, you have to rock the Yankee gear when they lose, like a man. Same is true for all teams.

As for the stuff like the Ortiz homers, yeah, those are what the Yankees typically do, because real Yankee teams have great bullpens that hold the other team down until Bernie or O'Neill can come up and hit the walk-off. A few years ago Ortiz would have been up against Mike Stanton, Ramiro Mendoza (when he was good), etc. In 2004 he was up against Esteiban Loiza and Tanyon Sturze, a guy the Devil Rays released. Great Yankee teams are all about great pitching and timely hitting, not spotty pitching and streaky hitting.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stone

Think about it - our manager put Wakefield in in the 13th inning of an elimination game, and he kept Varitek, our non-knuckler-catching catcher in. Classic Red Sox move, check. Our catcher gets 3 PASSED BALLS. 3 PASSED BALLS. I wanted to kill myself. The Yankees have Sheffield up, and somehow they forget to send him after 3 FUCKING PASSED BALLS. That is the sort of bonehead-avoidable-coaching move that leads to Yankees wins and destroyed Red Sox careers, and yet, the Red Sox ended up winning. Bizzare stuff.

Spo - what do you think about Torre's job this year? That was one of the most surprising things about the series - I think he fucked up a lot. He got outmanaged by Francona.

I don't think Torre was outmanaged at all, and I think Francona made a ton of stupid moves. Torre steered him team into the situations he wanted to be in, they just didn't have good players in the right roles. He got his team to Rivera in game 4, you tip your cap to the Red Sox for gutting out a run off Rivera. After that Torre had no good pitchers, and eventually Tanyon Sturze is going to get hit.

Game 5 he got the ball to his set up guy, Tom Gordon, with a 2 run lead. As usual in the postseason, Gordon blew it. Eventually Esteiban Loiza is going to get hit. You can argue to bring in Rivera early, but what's he supposed to get out of Gordon later when Rivera can't pitch another inning and Gordon knows he was taken out of his role because his manager has no faith in him?

As for the Wakefield thing, you have to remember that Wakefield does have a great move to first base. Torre gave Sheffield the green light to go nuts and steal at will, Sheffield just couldn't get a good jump off Wakefield and figured with big hitters up he should just wait. That's not the Yankee way, if he should have just waited Torre wouldn't have green lighted him to steal.

I give the credit to guys like Schilling, not Francona. I think the team just got the job done behind guys like Schilling and Francona happened to be along for the ride. Francona made some unexplainable moves. No Mirabelli to catch Wakefield, bringing in Pedro in game 7 to wake up the Yankee fans, so Pedro can pitch to the hitters that killed him in the same inning of the same game last year. Francona's just a yes man to the front office, the Red Sox as an organization never seem to want a real manager. Shit like letting Pedro show up for things when/if he feels like it, etc., it's not his fault because management wants it that way but it's still really bad.
23 Oct 2004, 01:42 AM
SpoDaddy

As for Mussina vs. Wakefield, Mussina had the worst year of his career this year. This wasn't his best postseason, he was just as good in 2001 and last year. It's also tricky because Wakefield owns the Yankees 99 percent of the time, so judging how he'll do against the Yankees is different from how he'll do against everyone else. I love knuckleball pitchers, but I hate Tim Wakefield. I think he's a bitch and I think the Cardinals are going to wreck him. Schilling and Pedro will probably pitch well though. One thing you have to look at is that Schilling usually gets hit by the Cardinals. If you're a Red Sox fan, you have to be confident hitting against their starting pitching. It's a collection of #3 starters.

I have to say, I was a big fan of the All Star game determining homefield in the WS thing, but this year it's really crazy that the team with the best record in baseball doesn't have homefield against a wild card team. Personally, I think the playoff structure needs to be changed. Add another wild card in each league and make the 2 wild card teams in each league play a 1 game series against each other. Think about how much better those late season Yankee-Red Sox games would have been if the playoffs were on the line, rather than just bragging rights about who won the east.

Clemens makes 5 million guaranteed plus incentives (nobody thought he'd be nearly that good, he benefitted heavily from going to a league where nobody saw him before and fastballs hold much more weight)

Petitte makes 10 million a year for 2 more years

Beltran is going to the Yankees or the Red Sox because Boras is his agent and both teams want him, and are willing to pay him. The Astros made an insane amount of money this year, if they don't boost their payroll significantly it's bullshit. Their window is closing.
23 Oct 2004, 02:20 AM
youandwhosearmy

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll talk about the world series games when the start.\

And Spo there is just way to much stuff in there, for anyone to challenge. But you know what you talking about when it comes to all this. We can debate fans all you want, but I do disagree with you about a true red sox fan fearing they could lose at any moment.

No, no, we all get roped into truly believing.

The true Bosox fans are the ones who do not grow an immunity to it, and at some point around august-sept believe we are going to make it, and put all of our faith into it.

thats the the true fan.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Melf

That's more important than winning a WS for the first time since WWI?

He said the ALCS was insignificant if we don't win the world series.

I'm saying being responsible for the greatest comeback in sports history ever, makes it special. That and of course, not having to hear shit from yankee's fans this year.
23 Oct 2004, 02:22 AM
station82o

Quote:

Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

I'm beginning to wonder if we'll talk about the world series games when the start.

It could be virtually ignored like the NLCS. =\

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