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*Random thought
I really don't care if this wasn't able to compete head to head with sony's PS2, but if you look at how loyal SNK's fanbase was, I could guess that support for the arcade industry and titles in relation + cheaper costs to developement would be in the cards for sega if they wanted to seperate their platform from the mainstream. It would make a difference for making games that were strictly about gameplay more then the graphics show everyone else is coming out with.
From reading that I'm reminded of the follwing -
- The arcade market is virtuall nonexistant in NA and fickle in Japan. It's very difficult to know a game's going to guaranteeably generate any income today.
- There's already plenty of other hardware to choose from in the current (at least post-System 246) generation. Triforce, Chihiro, and Atomiswave are all recent examples and I think Sega is still putting together Naomi 3 for some reason.
- Speaking of which, what ever happened to Triforce?
So it's from this basis that I'm saying "I don't think it'd make a lick of a difference, anyway."
I wish I knew what happened to Triforce. We got F-Zero on that thing, and then...what? I remember Namco and Capcom were backing the hardware too, and then nothing =(
And yeah, arcades these days suck. There's not much room for the hardware that's out there, let alone a 'revival' of hardware that's dated, compared to the competition.
I've never found an F-Zero cabinet anywhere near me, which is the main reason I never got to into the GC version. Are they really hard to come across, or am I just in a shit location?
I think starfox was supposed to be in developement for triforce, but I've heard nothing new lately.
I agree that bringing back DC would be a pretty hard effort, but to see it seperate into a market of it's own would be the best way to milk whatever potential is left from the system. Didn't I recall both Sammy and SNK putting their work on atomswave? That being the DC in arcade hardware would make ports cheap and easy and for SNK, they could double up on this as the next gen NEO-GEO platform without jacking the price up for everything.
You're in a shit location, move to Japan. :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
I don't understand why. In the case of the MVS, it's unique and stands out. Neo games have a certain feel to them. I don't think that's true for Naomi games, they could have just as easily been put on any other competent 3D board. Why do you care what hardware your arcade game is running on? I'm more concerned about there just plain being arcades, let alone details like this. There isn't a single arcade anywhere near where I live :(
I just wanted to make sure that you all know that an Atomiswave IS a Dreamcast, right?
http://www.system16.com/other/hrdw_atomiswave.htmlQuote:
This is a standard dreamcast type spec, so has less power than the Sega Naomi.
Inputs : Supports various types of input such as joystick, light guns, and track balls via a common interface.
dog$: Your too bitter to be a gamer. I don't belive you play games anymore. :chunobi:
No, they are hard to come across, of all the arcades where I live, there are a few, only one had 2 F-Zero AX machines. Worst news about this, there not even used. And I'm afraid of putting my mem card in a slot that a million people threw their bubble gum in.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
These kids do that? :wtf: Selfish little bastards have no shame!Quote:
Originally Posted by DjRocca
Tri-ForceQuote:
Originally Posted by Hero
-F-Zero AX (Amusment Vision)
-F-Zero AX: Monster Ride (Amusment Vision)
-Gekitou Pro Yakyuu (Wow Entertianment)
-The Key of Avalon: Summon the New Monsters (Hitmaker)
-The Key of Avalon: The Wizard Master (Hitmaker)
-Virtua Stiker 2002 (Amusment Vision)
...Namco was working on a Smash Bros type game and planning an arcade release for Starfox 2 but it was all canceled when they started scaling back AM resources. Capcom pledged support early on, and rumor has it Z-Gundam started on TF, but they've gotten out of arcades completely. Sega still uses TF for select games but that's about it.
Huh, for some reason I thought Key of Avalon was on Naomi.
?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shapermc
Where the hell is this coming from?
Here's what I'm thinking, Dreamcast as a home arcade system = yes
But it also includes hardware heavy titles and stuff. Like the motion sensor from 911 or something. I guess there's better uses for it.
You can count SNK out, they stated their Atomiswave titles will be ported to PS2 and Xbox only.
DC owners have been fairly lucky with Naomi ports except Guilty Gear. The Naomi hardware has provided a quality library as varied as Neo Geo and Capcom CSP 2 and games continue to be made for it likely because it is cheaper to support than newer hardware.
You want Naomi games on DC, buy the games that are out Border Down, Psyvariar 2, and Shikigami No Shiro 2 are all fine shooters if you are into that. *-neo
I have sns2 and Psvyariar 2 but i'm kinda Wary of border down. I keep hearing either bad or mediocre reviews on thatQuote:
Originally Posted by neoalphazero
Yeah, I honestly don't see where all the hate comes from, Border Down is probably my favorite DC shooter and is a loaded package to boot. Of course if you prefer verts it may not be that great. *-neoQuote:
Originally Posted by MarsKitten
Border Down is a fantastic game and well worth a purchase. There are very few games that flow and play as smoothly, It completly embarrasses R-Type Final for a recent comparison.
Those people have been lying to you. Or are stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsKitten
It's the best horizontal shooter to come out since... well, ever.
Okay I'll get that and Radiant Silvergun next month i suppose. Or is border down gonna spike in price any time soon?Quote:
Originally Posted by neoalphazero
Still watching silvergun's prices fall slowly myself
Well I've noticed it go from a regular 230 to 180...Did something happen?
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsKitten
Seeing as how Border Down is still in stock at webstores for its retail price, I don't see it going up anytime soon.
Now next year... it could be a 100$ title. But until then, you're safe.
I think some folks who don't know better might figure that Ikaruga is the much-improved sequel to RS...Quote:
Originally Posted by DjRocca
Just a theory.
Opinions are like...Quote:
Originally Posted by Kron
No need to finish that, we all know how that goes.
The Ikaruga/RS hype is dying out slowly. Its dipped to 160 lately, I'm gonna wait for about 130-150ish with shipping.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodash
Hey, I'd rather play Iky than RS. And chalk up another "Border Down is awesome" vote.
Its obviously alot easier to state a cliche than give that differing opinion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shapermc
Ok well then, instead of leaving it how t was I will start this. How? Well first Border Down is nowhere near the game that R-Type is if you’re looking for a straight shooter. Border Down bogs up your game play with heavy scoring mechanics and also bland design. With not much more than a bullet maze and some bland graphics BD needed the scoring system and the Borders to get people coming back.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kron
It seems like more and more frequently people need a gimmick and then once they have their puzzle solved there is no need for the game any more. The puzzle is just bullets where not killing an enemy does not harm you or your score. A screen will become filled with these little things. Unlike other examples BD almost forces you to cooperate with their rigid score techniques to get your points and your laser up.
Yes there are many innovations in Border Down, but if it were not wrapped up in an old deathbed system (DC) most people would not have bought it (if most people have bought it at all). It was easy access, trivial, and new. That is all. For your "flow" being smooth on BD more than RTF (R-Type Final) I will just laugh.
Ha.
When you die you power down in R-Type usually with the ability to get your force right away. When death happens in BD you have your "other pilot" sent out down a different path with different enemies and different techniques. Instead of learning one game you will either end up restarting multiple times in BD or just learning 3 different levels for each level. How this "flows" better I do not understand. You are correct when you say that flows more smoothly if your discussing slowdown as that seems to be RTF’s largest downfall (next to level 1). If anything BD stole certain elements from R-Type (The variable speeds) and then used them to incorporate a new feel when really it is not new. It is nice that you don’t end up accidentally on a faster ship than you intend (Gradius) but it is far from new.
Where are these "embarrassing" downfalls that RTF seems to have? If you’re going to fall back on the slowdown, yea it sucks, but it is not the worst thing ever. Sure level one is slow but when your first getting use to the game it is a nice "wading pool" of a level. After that the game picks up pace and flows beautifully. Everything from evolving levels to many hidden secrets. The sheer amount of fire power you can amass and the number of options you have to play the game (you can change out your ship for each level) this game not only boasts smooth game play, but hours upon hours of replay value even after you have beat the game (even if you have 1 credited the game).
But like I was saying before opinions are like assholes, even I have one.
For more personal tastes I thought that BD had almost nothing aside from the border system and the break laser going for it. The visuals were bland and un-inspired, the music put me to sleep, and the bosses (the best part) were less than most other games. Personally I was uninterested with BD after only about 5 hours of gaming and I am heading into 20 hours of RTF w/o even starting to get bored.
PS: Your darn skippy you calling RTF "embarrassing" got me a bit heated. I hope you take no direct offence to my comments, but I leave them here w/o edit.
Thats an easy one...Quote:
Originally Posted by Shapermc
Its not actually fun to play.
Border Down maybe a gimmick to you but R-Type final is a circus, And a circus thats badly paced with the most boring boss encounters devised.
And using the "game is only popular because its on the DC" is so 2001 and painfully cynical, People judge games by merit.
Have you played Progear? Just curious..Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammadeau
Or you could learn to not die, which flows a lot better then restarting levels. *cheap shot* And doesn't RTF also have multiple versions of a lot of levels, or do those not count?Quote:
Instead of learning one game you will either end up restarting multiple times in BD or just learning 3 different levels for each level. How this "flows" better I do not understand.
P.S. I haven't played Border Down. Just saying.RS currently has a copy on eBay for $102 with three hours left and another with over a day left at $51. I also looked earlier this week and I haven't seen any copies going for over $100 with any bids on them, if this keeps up for long I'd imagine BIN prices will drop in the next few weeks.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarsKitten
Nothing wrong with the Border concept and unlike Ikaruga and Psyvariar 2 where you can argue the scoring mechanic forces you to play the game a certain way, Border Down can be easily played as a straight (and challenging) shooter in addition to score play. While a bit gray, the game is definitely nice looking but I will say R-Type Final is the better looking title.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shapermc
Again fail to see the rigid requirements you mention, wow the game tracks break hits, remaining time on boss counter, and what border you choose, and again these can easily be ignored if you want to just play the game. And unless I'm really missing something, the Break laser is feed by destruction not points.Quote:
It seems like more and more frequently people need a gimmick and then once they have their puzzle solved there is no need for the game any more. The puzzle is just bullets where not killing an enemy does not harm you or your score. A screen will become filled with these little things. Unlike other examples BD almost forces you to cooperate with their rigid score techniques to get your points and your laser up.
Not worth a proper response.Quote:
Yes there are many innovations in Border Down, but if it were not wrapped up in an old deathbed system (DC) most people would not have bought it (if most people have bought it at all). It was easy access, trivial, and new. That is all. For your "flow" being smooth on BD more than RTF (R-Type Final) I will just laugh.
Ha.
Variable ship speed didn't start with R-Type Final, Thunder Force which Border Down is more akin to also had the feature and a number of R-Types don't sport it. As for the Border system, you may find it unfair to learn three level variants but it keeps checkpoints fresh and isn't a problem in a few passes.Quote:
When you die you power down in R-Type usually with the ability to get your force right away. When death happens in BD you have your "other pilot" sent out down a different path with different enemies and different techniques. Instead of learning one game you will either end up restarting multiple times in BD or just learning 3 different levels for each level. If anything BD stole certain elements from R-Type (The variable speeds) and then used them to incorporate a new feel when really it is not new. It is nice that you don’t end up accidentally on a faster ship than you intend (Gradius) but it is far from new.
I think R-Type Final is a decent game with great design sense, but I find it as exciting as Silpheed: The Lost Planet, Border Down is more my speed, but whatever. *-neoQuote:
Where are these "embarrassing" downfalls that RTF seems to have? If you’re going to fall back on the slowdown, yea it sucks, but it is not the worst thing ever. Sure level one is slow but when your first getting use to the game it is a nice "wading pool" of a level. After that the game picks up pace and flows beautifully. Everything from evolving levels to many hidden secrets. The sheer amount of fire power you can amass and the number of options you have to play the game (you can change out your ship for each level) this game not only boasts smooth game play, but hours upon hours of replay value even after you have beat the game (even if you have 1 credited the game).
I agree. BD is overrated just for being a Naomi/DC-only obscure title. Audio-visually, the game is poorly designed. Very. The "border down" system is unnecessary. Otherwise, I like how it plays. RT Final is a bit prettier, but a boring tragicomedy compared with the first games in the series. We need 2D again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shapermc
Should amend it to say 'best hori shooter to come to a console'Quote:
Originally Posted by Valgar
I've never played Progear because I haven't seen a decent arcade in ages.
...yet you loved Sonic Heroes. :wtf:Quote:
Originally Posted by Shapermc
Ok, just to clear a few things up. This comment:
Is not ment to be "so 2001" in its context. I am saying that alot of its popularity can be atributed to it being available for "free" on the net. I promise that if this game were to cost $ half the people who praise it paid money then they would not have ever played. It is like the newest mame release being hot shite for a month. This was also a general comment about the reciving of the game, not a direct comment.Quote:
Yes there are many innovations in Border Down, but if it were not wrapped up in an old deathbed system (DC) most people would not have bought it (if most people have bought it at all). It was easy access, trivial, and new.
Now:
Yes, it is destruction, but they are in direct relation, if you don't shoot anything, no points. And I feel differently about that you can and not just choose to ignore these. The game is built around this design and it is hence required of you to do these things to make it far. As far a the whole [MechDeaus] "don't die" theory, yes I know that this is the point.Quote:
Again fail to see the rigid requirements you mention, wow the game tracks break hits, remaining time on boss counter, and what border you choose, and again these can easily be ignored if you want to just play the game. And unless I'm really missing something, the Break laser is feed by destruction not points.
And Yes, RTF has different levels, but they remain constant from start to finish and you are the one making the decisions which result in what level you're in. The pace is not broken if you make a mistake by thrusting you into a completly new level you may/maynot be familiar with, it gives you a chance to re-evaluate your mistake.
Ahh, but what Sonic are you comparing these too. I still think most of the 2D sonics are better. The Gameplay was genious and very fresh. The music was sub-par, but still a head above some, and leaps and bounds beyond BD. The color scheme in Sonic was excellent and the design was great. I still stand by my [b[]OPINION[/b]. If you read my review I only gave it a 7 or 7.5 or something, not a 9 or 10.Quote:
...yet you loved Sonic Heroes.
Look I said it before, I got defensive, get over it. I hate arguing opinions because mine is not yours and yours is not mine. If it is not fun don't play it. I just don't like all the flack that R-Type Final has gotten. Also, for one of the most rigid gimick systems ever, play Radiant Silvergun, more strict than Ikaruga and Psyaviar. (Also I will not argue this, but Ikaruga is much less strict than Border Down if you ignore score in both cases).
EDIT: I cannot spell or edit today. blah
Your break laser fills even when not shooting anything (allbeit slowly) and if you're not shooting something what's the point of playing a shooter? The game is not built around the scoring mechanic at all. Achieving the score goal in a level allows you to border up or down and further, to get different versions of the final level, you can still play the game as a regular shooter there is no strict rules in place. The game simply offers you more for being a good player, like Psyvariar, hell if I'm watching the DVD correct you have to master two loops of Dodonpachi Dajiou to see the final boss of that game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shapermc
Agreed Radiant is strict but Border Down is more fun than Ikaruga as a straight shooter, I have to play the game on hard mode to get any challenge out of Ikaruga's first three stages.Quote:
Also, for one of the most rigid gimick systems ever, play Radiant Silvergun, more strict than Ikaruga and Psyaviar. (Also I will not argue this, but Ikaruga is much less strict than Border Down if you ignore score in both cases).
There were a lot of voiced (which usually means many more unvoiced) comments about not even knowing how they triggered the different stages, thus leading to one of a number of a possibilities that they may or may not be playing their next time through. How did they get around that? They discussed and learned how to trigger the stages and then how to beat each alternate configuration.Quote:
And Yes, RTF has different levels, but they remain constant from start to finish and you are the one making the decisions which result in what level you're in. The pace is not broken if you make a mistake by thrusting you into a completly new level you may/maynot be familiar with, it gives you a chance to re-evaluate your mistake.
The same would hold true for BD. Of course you're not to know the alternates right away, you're going to have to take some time to learn how to play them. At least it was more obvious in what caused the change then RTF was and there's a direct level of control instead of it being seperated by play sessions. Is it better to have to learn different setups on the fly or to simply not why the stages occasionally change? I know I probably wouldn't have guessed at RTF's stage 2 being boss-based for a long time and would've been even more puzzled with each subsequent change.
Same problem, two different methods of creating it.