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I have no clue how he swung a debate like that, when for my class this semester, I had to debate human cloning... Anyway, he's on the Genesis end, and he needs some solid US-released titles to use, not to mention some good points in favor of Genesis. He doesn't know much beyond the Sonic games, and I mentioned Landstalker, Gunstar Heroes, Ristar, and a few others, but I feel like he could benefit from some more input other than me. Ideas on points to use, anyone?
Blast processing.
Genesis does what Nintendon't
Blast. Processing.
(edit- Damn you, Tojo!)
Seriously, though, you could always use the ratio of good games to crap (remember there being more shovel-ware made for the SNES) or that SEGA was always the innovator and tried to maximize that system as much as they could with add-ons and such (SegaCD, 32X).
Plus, the Mortal Kombat versions for the Genesis always had gushing blood, rather than spewing Snot/Milk. Not sure if that would be much of a plus, though.
- Faster processing speed (more action onscreen).
- Programmers squeezed awesome effects out of software (rotation, scaling)
- Better marketing and advertising
- Shmups!
...just don't mention the 32X. :p
Toejam & Earl!
That one game is better than any SNES game.
all those games you mentioned wont matter. do you really think anybody in a debate class will know what they are? its all about the blood in mortal kombat.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave
Man, how come people get to do all these video game-related essays in school and shit now?
It's like comparing apples and oranges, they both have their
advantages, and equal amount of great games, but the idea of
the Sega Channel might be a strong point to sway someone.
Just tell him to stay away from RPG's unless he absolutely has to.
Genesis RPG's
Summoner
Phantasy Star 1-4
Crusader of Centy
Sorcerian
FX, beats me, but I loved being able to do my required-to-graduate 11th grade research paper on gaming. Things in favor of the Genesis:
Innovation in the form of controllers, improving on the preceeding controller of the SMS and NES by adding a third action button, then changing with the times by making the six-button pad.
Faster gameplay action due to the faster processor, better sports games than the SNES, port comparison only. World Series Baseball is a great example of a Genny-specific game that showcases the power of the system.
Ability to play it anywhere you want with the Nomad. This little gizmo revived my love for the system, and I'm sure it did the same for many others.
- LandstalkerQuote:
Originally Posted by Damian79
- Shining in the Darkness
- Shining Force 1 & 2
- Shadowrun
- Sword of Vermilion
- Pirates Gold!
- Wonder Boy in Monster World
- Monster World IV
- Light Crusader
- Exile
- Ys 3
Have to mention the marketing. That was when Sega was in it's prime. Their ads backed up the games. Sports was a big selling point too and the big MK drama was a selling point too. He could compare the MK release with the "maturity" angle of gamers which Sony would later use against Nintendo too. Genesis was cool...Nintendo was Nintendo.
World Series Baseball 1 & 2. The Sonics. And all the EA NHL games. They were made on the SNES but were clearly superior on the Genesis.
Six button pad for street fighter and such...
only mk1. 2 on SNES had more sounds and crisper visuals than its Genesis counterpart.Quote:
Originally Posted by Super-Eggroll
Yes, but the controls were complete shit on the SNES. I would imagine that the upcoming Midway Arcade Treasures 2 will be the first time that an arcade perfect version of the original has been released, barring a release that I'm not aware of.
How were they complete shit? Just asking.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
Focus on how much less slowdown there was generally in Genny games compared to SNES ones.
Also play up on how Landstalker is the greatest Action/RPG ever made and Shining Force 1 & 2 are the best strategy/RPGs ever.
Although the title of best console RPG overall remains with FF3/6 :p
Damian, the controls were sluggish as hell compared to the arcade, Genesis, and even the Game Gear versions'. Given the fast pace of MK's play, this really killed the fun.
Action RPG: Terranigma would win in this debate IMO.Quote:
Also play up on how Landstalker is the greatest Action/RPG ever made and Shining Force 1 & 2 are the best strategy/RPGs ever.
Strat/RPG: SF 1&2 was probably the best that was released in English countries. While the other guy could say that there were superior strat RPG's on the SNES, since none of them were released here, it was irrlelevant. And mention Der Langrisser games and other strat/RPG's that weren't released here.
Maybe minor, but I would definitly make the case for the controller. Made so many games(mainly fighers) much nicer to play.
Some games better on Genesis?
Flashback
Aladin
Mortal Kombat
Well, your opinion's wrong... and this is coming from an extreme Zelda/Quintet fanboy. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by Damian79
SNES had more high quality ARPGs than Genesis, but I'd say Genesis/MD's top stuff (Beyond Oasis, LandStalker, Monster World 3-4, Popful Mail CD, Crusader of Centy) was just ahead of the top SNES/SFC stuff (Zelda 3, Quintet's Creation Trilogy, Seiken Densetsu 2-3). Of course the huge number of "just good" SNES ARPGs (Spike McFang, Super Adventure Island 2, Neugier, Equinox, etc) even things out a little for overall ARPG libraries.
Even PCE/TG16 put up a decent ARPG fight (Ys 1-4, Xak 1-3, Neutopia 1-2, Monster's Lair, Dynastic Hero, etc). The genre was really at it's highpoint in the 16bit days... unlike now where there's really only Zelda, Kingdom Hearts and maybe something from Matrix every now and then. :(
Langrisser 1 released here as Warsong from Renovation. Ogre Battle saw a US SNES release courtesy of Enix and frustratingly Nintendo got rights to release Tactics Ogre here but just sat on it. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian79
Except that warsong was a severely raped version of Langrisser 1.Quote:
Originally Posted by jarrod
As for the comparison between A-RPG's I still think that Terranigma put it a little ahead. Although I would switch Equinox and Zelda 3 around(simply because I didn't really like Zelda 3) though both were a little dissapointing(coming from a solstice and Zelda fan).
I think you're thinking of the first Mortal Kombat on Super Nintendo. That game had terrible controls compared to the other versions. I'm almost positive that Mortal Kombat 2 on Super Nintendo had perfect control.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
Anyone who could not win a debate when they get the Genesis side deserves an F. That's like getting to argue against John Kerry. It is so damn obvious, that you'd run out of time before you ran out of ammo.
just play the SEGA shout and then sit down. You will win.
Some notabel games on the Genny...I'd hit up the solid solid first party stuff...and the solid 3rd party stuff that also supported the system
Streets of Rage 2
Forgotten Worlds
Contra Hardcorps
Sonic games
the freaking Sega CD Working Designs stuff...
dammit, so many good games and I can't think of more...
Please.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
unless he's debating against himself or a retarded monkey, it's a lost cause.
Yoshi, i love ya and all, but lets try to keep political statements out of gaming discussion...Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Oh, and SNES > Genesis
Genesis side? Man, did he fall into the wrong side of that argument! :p Don't get me wrong, I love all late 80's early 90's machines (Genny, TG16, SNES, Neo Geo), but nobody's touchin' the SNES.
Faster gameplay on the Genny? Please. Games like F-Zero and Sparkster moved plenty fast. Slowdown? Maybe in early gens, but play Super Smash TV and tell me the Genny could push stuff like that. You say the Genny stock pad was better than the SNES stock pad for fighters? Oh wait, the Genny stock pad had three buttons and you had to toggle between punch and kick with the start button. Yeah, you could buy a six button pad for the genny. Guess what, you could buy one for the SNES as well. All you Genesis people have to stand on is EA Sports and censorship issues, but MKII came along and took the censorship issue right out the window.
Better Earthworm Jim. Oh and don't forget Dynamite Headdy and Toejam and Earl 2.
Well, yeah. Obviously the Genny is going to have a few games better on the ports and some killer exclusives. But at the end of the day 64 colors can't hang with 256, FM synth can't hang with wavetable synth, and we're talkin' Nintendo at the hight of their creativity and ability with an army of kick ass 3rd parties. Can't beat that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
This reminds me how much I need to rebuy a SNES...
Wrong. Twice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodash
SNES was a great system. In fact, it was in the top 3 when it was current (counting Japanese releases for TG/PCE of course). :p
I think boils down to Genny having better action games and SNES haveing more/better RPGs and strategy games. I couldn't pick between them.
:nod: :nod: :nod: :nod: :nod:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpy
There certainly isn't a right or wrong side in this debate. Both offer so much yet often excel in different areas so it all comes down to genre and game preferences.
If you're arguing the side of the Genesis, it's best to focus on the action genre spectrum and downplay system specs as the SNES is certainly superior hardware. The Genesis had more good platformers, beat 'em ups, run 'n guns and shooters than the SNES.
And most importantly it had better ninja games. ;)
Super Metroid
Oh wait, SNES wins.
All this crap about the SNES having the best RPGs of the time is insane. I played FF3 and Lunar 1 and 2 on release. The sega CD RPGs kick the shit out of the SNES ones. The only thing FF3 had over lunar 1&2 was it had a better magic system to play with.
But anyway. You may want to tell your buddy that the lunar series was one of the first games released in the US to use cut scenes to push a story along. This would later be put into the FF series of games and really help with them gain a mass appeal.
Yes, Lunar was out looooooong before Ninja Gaiden 1-3 hit the NES...Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
Unless you are taking about RPGs only. In that case, I agree.
Geen, yes, I was just referring to the original MK, as it's the only one that was censored on the SNES, as per the discussion. I'm a fan of both the SNES and the Genesis, and the time I spend on them now is usually dictated by which exclusives each system has that I want to play at a given time. With non-sports ports, the SNES usually wins out. Also, Aladdin on the Genesis is completely different than the SNES one, so that isn't really a proper comparison.
Streets of Fucking Rage! Did anyone mention that yet? I mean c'mon! How about the Road Rash series? I don't think that ever came out of SNES did it? And it's bastard son Skitchin'!
To win the debate, play up the Genesis strong points:
Library of games
Generally cheaper price for games
Censorship issues
"mature, cool" image
Faster processor
It was first to market
6-button pad has 3 over 3 button config
Compare Sonic to Mario.
Sound chip:
Personally, I like the sound from the Genesis over the SNES. Why? The Sony chip in the SNES, while technically superior, sounds super generic and tinny. While the best of the Genesis music sounds great and distinct. I would play a sound clip of Super Mario World and compare it to a clip of Streets of Rage 2 music. And use a shitty low quality mp3 for the Mario music, and a nice wav for the SoR music. And play a sample of the music from any Sega CD game just to show whats possible. IN fact, play some of the Lunar 2 music. AFAIK, it's not redbook audio and is technically comming from the Genny sound chip. Not a fair comparison, but you want to win and make your point right?
The Gennesis sound is generally bassier than the SNES sound.
Show off the blood in MK.
Sports games.
Graphics:
Compare the flat world of Zelda to the 3D world of Landstalker.
Genesis could do much better parallax than SNES. Compare Shinobi 3 to some shitty looking SNES game.
Show off games like Ecco.
Genessis had better packaging with the plastic clamshells.
Just remember to marginalize EVERYTHING about the SNES. Call it a kiddy system and show examples. Show it slowing down and looking poor. Bring in an old yellow snes and sit it next to a nice black Genesis.
Many celebrities and sports stars endorsed Genesis. Snes had Howard.
Ah, Road Rash...one of my favorite series' ever. I think a Road Rash game was released in the UK on the SNES, but I'm not positive. SoR was never mentioned, but there's another great Sega-only series. Ristar's another great mention, as are the Columns games.
I guess I cant really talk on the controller then. I totally forgot about the three button stock pad. I got my Genny with a six button and never looked twice at the three button. I cant for the life of me remember a decent SNES controller with six face buttons though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
Its a good debate I think, as many others have already said in this thread, both sides have plenty to offer. I know that personally, it's only my SEGA fanboy-ness that makes me like the Genny a bit more.
I loved skitchin. Still is a great game. Very underrated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpy
Yeah, and it's still fun today. I want to pick up one of the newer THPS games, whichever one put skitchin' into it, and featured it as a selling point in ads.
Word. I'd love to see an update of that game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
I had several of them. ASCII made one that was decent, but not as good as the stock Sega 6-button. (Which I think was designed by ASCII)Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBit
Can I play a comparison of a Castlevania IV or Actraiser .spc against a shitty .mp3 of Altered Beast then? :p Or how about putting the SFII music and sound effects from the SNES and Genny directly up against one another, eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by JefmcC
:bang:
I like your tactics tho'. :D
And Sega CD games did use straight redbook audio for most tracks. Go ahead and put it in a home CD player and give it a listen. No Genesis audio chip there.
I have a couple of ASCII SNES pads, including one that adds some much-appreciated bulk to the SNES pad design. I don't like the six-face button one that I have, as it has kind of an awkward feel to it. Not bad for the $5 or so I paid for it.
The Championship Joystick rulled! It was the first I ever saw that used a real arcade stick and buttons. Still have mine, still use it all the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by EightBit
http://www.8bitjoystick.com/archives...n_joystick.php
Sure, why not. But the original posters point was to win a debate that Genesis was superior to SNES. Why would one try to prove the opposite if that's not the goal?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
I can think of worse sounding Genesis games than Altered Beast.
Funny how we both picked Yozo music to represent the best of Genesis and SNES. :)
:bang:
Most do, but on Lunar 2 (US version anyway), you cannot play it in a CD player, except for maybe one or two tracks. The rest is not red book.Quote:
I like your tactics tho'. :D
And Sega CD games did use straight redbook audio for most tracks. Go ahead and put it in a home CD player and give it a listen. No Genesis audio chip there.
Yes but the 32x version was the shizz-nizzle.Quote:
Originally Posted by arjue
Yeah, I was talking about RPGS only. As sqaure went on to put them in the FF games with 7, and sony adveritsed the hell out of the game with them. In doing so they launched RPGs into the publics eye.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodash
What the hell happened to kids debating about REAL issues in college debate classes?
This is just fucking stupid. What the hell does this teach them?
Y's had story scenes to move things along, and that was before Lunar.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
Was Cosmic Fantasy before Lunar? That had cutscenes too.
Actually comparing SNES and MegaDrive is unfair since Nintendo had 2 years more to develop the SNES. From that perspective, the MegaDrive is better, since given that time difference, there's not a huge difference between them. MD was more ahead of its time. But if you're comparing the software catalogue, it's an uphill battle, because in terms of games I'd play now, SNES wipes the floor with MD. In fact, I'd even put MD in third place behind PC Engine, even without the CD systems! I'm not a big MegaDrive fan, obviously.
Teaching them about how to make your arguments sound better than the other guys arguments when the audience has no freaking clue what you are on about?Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
No, teaching them to research and argue over real issues that actually might mean something in their lifetime.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian79
With regards to Super Smash TV, "The SNES is what Genesisn't". This version is herky-jerky as hell compared to the excellent SNES title. Space Megaforce and Axelay also help SNES in my book.
But what about Gaiares? Only on Genesis. SNES also gets the short end of the stick when it comes to Darius. Why could Darius Twin not have had 28 Zones? One player Final Fight with a character missing is sacrilege. Special moves I could easily pull off in the Genesis MK1 took me until the 12th of Never to do on the SNES- the control is worse than Street Fighter 1 there. At least SNES MKII did make an improvement on that.
Early on, the 6-button controller gave the SNES an advantage- but when it came time for the Genesis to get SFII:SCE, that evened out.
Could the SNES have handled MUSHA? I have yet to see a game with that intensity on the system (Space Megaforce is the closest one yet still not a match).
Does Donkey Kong still look good btw? I remember when the title screen rolled like a poster over the screen and being impressed.
Maybe he should mention Virtua Racing, or maybe not..
Eh, my speech class had a bunch of "serious" debates, gay marriage, the merits of human cloning, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
And it was bullshit anyway. Sure, it was a freshman-level course and we weren't exactly super-prepared, any of us, but we didn't take anything more away from that than we would have taken away from this. It's just learning to prepare and research an argument that's important, I think. What's being argued is largely unimportant. I doubt anyone's going to reflect back on their debate about gay marriage in college and take life revelations away from it.
You seem a bit young to already sound like a crotchety old bastard bitching about the good old days and how college education has gone soft. Nobody cares.
Anyway, Peter had his debate today, and I'm not sure how it went. I'll probably see him if I go out for a smoke break anytime after midnight, so I guess I'll find out then. This morning I was sitting in the hallways between classes and I heard his opposition talking. He was a pretty disturbingly greasy fellow, and he was shouting on his cell phone about his points... sounded pretty disorganized. Hm.
That's just the attitude that is the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave
What attitude? If you know how to form a logical argument and plan for a debate, you can apply it to any topic. It doesn't matter what that topic is, once you've learned how to do it, you can use that information for anything.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
I'm not sure why you can't understand that.
I understand that and agree that is largely what debate class is about. But a point should also be made in the class to debate over topics that you should actually learn something about. You're in college to increase the depths of your knowledge, not to have silly arguments over what videogame system from 10 years ago is better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave
But if you do that, you would be presented with an uneven topic or a topic that people already have opinions on. Bias makes it hard to determine whether a person has argued effectively or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
It's the teachers job to ignore their own bias and grade according to the effectiveness of a persons debate. Having an opinion on something does not mean you can't research and present a clear argument for either side. And while some topics may be uneven, many are not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian79
For one, these are debates inside a class based on public speaking, not the main focus of the class. I don't think the teachers were expecting them to be the most 100% serious professional thing in the world to begin with. But I hardly see how a "fun" debate like this is detrimental while a debate about, say, the legalization of marijuana would be fine. Sure, you research the pros and cons of the topic, but I doubt anyone's going to be profoundly "increasing the depths of their knowledge" because of it. There's no reason people shouldn't be able to debate about something they enjoy, silly or not, as long as they're still learning how to debate. The very point of the debate was to learn how to debate, not to study the topic and take all that information to heart for future usage. The teacher decided on that, not the kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
But the effectiveness of a debate depends on how the debater interacts with the audience, and it can be hard if the audience doesn't ignore their own bias.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Public speaking classes tend to have very broad topics. You're not graded on the topic, you're graded on your presentation and arguments. Not much "expanding knowledge" in poltical issues or whatever going on (in a level 1 course anyway)..
i don't know what college you went to, but for me, it was a rare class where a professor would give equivalent grades to anyone expressing an opposing viewpoint.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
- Faster processing: larger sprites with less slowdown. Games like Sonic were not possible on the SNES. Many of the best games on the SNES came out at the beginning, when programmers were not using all the chips, and they suffered seriously from slowdown.
- Simple design: 68000 processor and Z80 sound chip. This made coding easy compared to the absolute mess that is the SNES. The z80 sound chip allowed backwards compatibility with the 8-bit Sega Master System.
- Cheaper: the system and games were cheaper most of the time. Although the games had less color, the same game that was 16Meg on the SNES might be 12 Meg on the Genesis, or it would be 16Meg with extra levels and other goodies.
- Portability: The Genesis games can be played on the Nomad. The SNES games need to be repurchased on the GBA, and the full library still isn't available (eg, Actraiser).
- Better games: This is debatable, but the Genesis had a lot of fantastic titles not available on the SNES, especially if you include the Sega CD and the 32X in with "Genesis." Strider, Ghouls N Ghosts, etc. The only thing that saved the SNES from getting completely destroyed by the Genesis was getting a lock on Street Fighter 2 (for a time). Sports were one of the Genny's strengths.
Fully animated ones? With dialog?Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
It is college man. It has little to do with reality.
Herzog Zwie is one of the greatest examples of the processing power of the Genesis. I can't imagine this game working on a SNES system. I still feel that this game is the epitomy of RTS gaming. It did everything right. Even the techno soundtrack kicked major ass!
Huh? Sega might've cut MD/Genesis development short in 1995 but they also released 2 years ahead of SFC/SNES. And while commercial SFC releases continued up until 2000, the console really ended any significant development in 1997... and Genesis continued getting EA Sports releases up until 1997 iirc. They really both had a good 7 year lifespan, with 2-3 years posthumous support.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
And whoever gave MD the edge in action games, I'd agree on a whole, but I'd also take Yoshi's Island over any singular Genesis platformer. Easy.