Iraq

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Originally Posted by Mike

The following logic makes no sense to me:

Man with bad track record so far versus man with no track record = Man with bad track record so far wins.

If you think Bush is doing a bad job, you vote him out of office. It doesn't matter how you think his opponent might do, you give the opponent a chance because you don't know. There's no way to know. We've seen the poor job Bush is doing, we gave him his chance, he has repeatedly shown us he is not the right man for the job. You can sit there and say that John Kerry will do this or that or whatever else, but that's just idiocy. You might as well not vote because you're not looking at the situation intelligently.

The draft won't shut anyone up because the current version of the bill will draft men and women 18-26. If you think a draft is a great idea - to randomly be pulled from whatever plans you have for your future for a minimum two years of service - then you should just stop what you're doing RIGHT NOW and go sign up for service yourself. I love my country, but now that my life is starting to get on track and my plans for my future are shaping up, I do NOT want to be torn from this to possibly die in a place so far away from here. I'm 24. If I were 18, I don't think I would mind so much since I didn't have even the slightest grip on life six years ago.

Also, g0zen, expect surprises from CV. That's what he does. :)

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While I generally respect your opinions your "If this guy sucks vote him out no matter what his opponent believes" sounds stupid to me. Maybe if John Kerry hadn't voted for the Iraqi war then voted against the funding for it (which shows a COMPLETE lack of respect for American lives and those men in Iraq) I would consider voting for him. I'm pissed at Bush but I think John Kerry is fucking slime and a fucking traitor. Worst comes to worst I just won't vote, but there's almost nothing that will make me vote for Kerry.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

I'm not denying that Bush didn't fuck it up now, I just don't think either him or Kerry is going to make the situation better, and I expect Kerry to do less.

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As of now, the threat of perpetual war in the middle east is much greater under Bush than under a potential Kerry administration if only because Bush seems more than willing to start military actions based entirely on lies and spin (we used to call that treason). Like me, all of my military buddies want Bush out ASAP because they don't like the idea of putting their lives on the line to further this administration's agenda. Their disregard for our lives is reason enough for us military men to give the draft-dodging neocons their walking papers this November.

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Maybe if John Kerry hadn't voted for the Iraqi war then voted against the funding for it (which shows a COMPLETE lack of respect for American lives and those men in Iraq) I would consider voting for him.

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You should really take a look at who put us in harm's way to begin with: this administration. Do you trust them enough to vote them in again?

I don't look at it the same way as you do. I would've been glad to go to Iraq last March and get rid of Saddam, even if that meant I was going to die because that's what I signed up for, to help people. I'm not pissed at the current administration because they went to war, I'm pissed because they're fucking the war up. As it stands now my vote is probably still going to Bush or not to anyone at all. I would still rather have him controlling the military then Kerry which now seems like a lose-lose situation, it's just a matter of who you believe is going to lose more.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

While I generally respect your opinions your "If this guy sucks vote him out no matter what his opponent believes" sounds stupid to me. Maybe if John Kerry hadn't voted for the Iraqi war then voted against the funding for it (which shows a COMPLETE lack of respect for American lives and those men in Iraq) I would consider voting for him. I'm pissed at Bush but I think John Kerry is fucking slime and a fucking traitor. Worst comes to worst I just won't vote, but there's almost nothing that will make me vote for Kerry.

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I actually wasn't referring to you, in particular. However, I don't understand the leap from voting for the Iraqi war and then later changing your mind and voting against funding for it makes you a slime or a traitor. I don't know much about Kerry as a person, but I know that people are allowed to change their minds, even politicians. I was for the Iraq war, then I was on the fence as things started going downhill, and now that we've totally flubbed it up and a draft is being mentioned, I'm seriously feeling we messed up, just like Stone.

I have a feeling you're just listening to the hype and all of that surrounding Kerry. As a rule, I don't listen to anything some pundit or ad campaign says about a person because it's probably either untrue or taken out of context. I don't believe a thing that Democrats say about Bush - I look at how I'm doing and how the country is doing, what Bush has contributed, and make my choice from there. To me, what he's doing now is totally in the wrong direction from what I want, and since a 3rd party vote is wasted and John Edwards isn't the candidate, I've been forced to be an ABB person. (Which sucks, really, but I have to try to give someone else a chance.) At least in the 1996 campaign, it wasn't an Anybody-but-Clinton issue, or an Anybody-but-Gore issue in 2000.

It may be different for you, though.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

it's just a matter of who you believe is going to lose more.

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Which is a thoroughly crappy situation for us Americans.

But remember who put us here.

I understand the whole changing your mind thing but lets say those troops didn't get their funding. After awhile the casuluties would've gotten so high and maintanence shortfalls were up we would've had to pull out of Iraq. When it comes to war the stakes are a little bit different. When you vote to send our young men to die and then vote against the funding neccassary to support their efforts it's a different deal. My attitude is that you need to support the troops you sent to that country until they can pull of their objective, not turn your back on them and say "Fuck you, I want us out of Iraq so you can suck my dick if you somehow make it out of the country alive."

Last night it dawned on me, and I mean it really dawned on me, that I might not make it to my 19th birthday because of this. While I'm prepped to give my life for my fellow Marines and the freedom of an oppressed people, this really got to me, it doesn't make me scared but it makes me sad in a way, knowing that I may never get married, never have my own car, never be able to get that new computer, never see my parents again, etc. This is some crazy shit and I'm doing what I believe is in my best interest because it deals with my life.

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However, I don't understand the leap from voting for the Iraqi war and then later changing your mind and voting against funding for it makes you a slime or a traitor.

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Because sending troops into war without proper funding is essentially giving cannon fodder to the enemy?

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Originally Posted by Gohron

My attitude is that you need to support the troops you sent to that country until they can pull of their objective, not turn your back on them and say "Fuck you, I want us out of Iraq so you can suck my dick if you somehow make it out of the country alive."

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That's cool. I just think it was more of a statement than actual lack of concern.

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Last night it dawned on me, and I mean it really dawned on me, that I might not make it to my 19th birthday because of this. While I'm prepped to give my life for my fellow Marines and the freedom of an oppressed people, this really got to me, it doesn't make me scared but it makes me sad in a way, knowing that I may never get married, never have my own car, never be able to get that new computer, never see my parents again, etc. This is some crazy shit and I'm doing what I believe is in my best interest because it deals with my life.

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That's all nice, except for the marriage part. Might as well die on the battlefield. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mfkzt

That comment directed at other people in this thread, not you. You're actually going to serve your country.

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Hey, I serve my country everyday. And I don't have to kill another man, woman or child to do so.


And I still really don't understand exactly *why* we got involved in Iraq in the first place. It obviously wasn't for some phantom WMD so it must have been a political reason. Right? But Bush is going down in the polls the longer we stay there and as more lives are lost. Are we freeing some oppressed people? Probably. But why Iraq? Why now? Why call it WMD for months then change the tune? Why not the other oppressed nations and peoples that we've sat around and ignored for so long? The only way to find out why we went there is to ask, "Who has the most to gain from a campaign in Iraq?" I don't pretend to know the answer but I bet it's something not very nice. OMG conspiracy!!

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Originally Posted by Tracer

I'm voting for Optimus Prime. Largely because my vote in TX doesn't count. I will be a distant flame before the sun there. Either vote for Bush or vote for anyone else. Doesn't matter who because they won't win Texas anyway. Kerry's not even trying (not that I even consider Kerry a better alternitive per se).

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Yeah. GWB has a strong hold in Texas though I'm not sure why. The bastard was born up north, went to school up north, but just so happens to have lived here a few years, "served" in the military here, and owns some sandbox "ranch" in Crawford. Apart from screwing up our educational funding and putting students more in debt (my tuition is increasing $650 next semester - same hours, similar course fees) I can't think of a damn thing he did as governor of Texas that made our state any better. And his crony Perry is just a moron, don't even try to make sense of his actions. What ever happened to Ann Richards? *There* was a true born, raised and educated Texan - none of this play-pretend-yee-haw-I'm-a-hick-check-out-my-fake-accent crap.

But people still vote for him because he's "religious". :yuck:


I was talking to a family member of the bride at a wedding I attended a week ago. He was in the Army and somehow we got started on the war. Boy this guy had been brainwashed to the core - every word out of his mouth stank of some shifty political agenda. I can understand wanting to increase funding for the military as a form of job security, but championing the death of thousands of people for some unknown reason just doesn't sit right. His inside sources tell him that the weapons, and all traces of their production and storage were shipped on trucks out of the country just before we got to em! Those sneaky "turrests". :p

But on topic, we can't leave, we can't stay, and we can't go around like a vigilante nation ridding to world of The Great Evil.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

I seriously doubt Kerry is going to do a better job then Bush, he's already made it clear that he wants our troops out of Iraq when he voted against additional funding. He has also made it clear that he wants to spend less on military funding. I'm pissed at Bush but I believe that Kerry will do no better, possibly even worse. It seems there's a good chance I'm gonna get fucked in November no matter what, although my vote is still leaning towards Bush, if he continues to do shit like this then I will simply not vote for the President in November, only my congressmen and senators.

Hopefully we can get a strong President in 2008 like McCain but we'll just have to see what happens.

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No incumbent president is going to pull troops from Iraq without first cleaning up the mess. Not even Howard Dean would have done that.

P.S. If Bush wins my predictiton for the wacky campaign of 2008 is...

R- Arnold
D- Hilary
I- The Body
G- Nader or his clone.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

And the soldiers who did it have been arrested, charged, and will be court-martialed. Which is what should happen. There is no cover-up. There is no stonewalling.

It's funny that this shit is such an outrage to you while Oil-For-Food (UNSCAM) or Al-jazeera's videos showing thugs dragging American bodies through Fallujah is not.

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Its an outrage because the war fighting is a propaganda war with these people. As much as it sucks that we get shit on by the people we are trying to protect, we just can't let shit like this happen in a way where it gets out to the general public man.

Because one view of that video could set people into an outrage and take what little control over that country we have away from it.

And I think everyone was outraged at Falluah, don't say stupid things like that...

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Fuck that noise.

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Stick to saying stupid things like this.

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Its a well known fact (to anyone who cares at least), that the USMC was HANDILY defeating the militants in Fallujah. At the time of the first BS "cease fire" the kill ratio was like 450 to TWELVE. FOUR-HUNDRED-AND-FIFTY-TO-TWELVE. Iwo Jima this was not. The MC had a plan and it was being executed with little problem. And then this happened.

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Fair enough.

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Iraq is no Vietnam but this Fallujah is little more than the Tet Offensive 2, in that the US military forces had a grasp on the situation and were doing their job when an anti-American, pro-enemy media stepped in and decided to tell the country a different story than was actually happening. And then politicians stepped in and ruined it.

This disgusts me.

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No I think the goal here is to say, hey, we don't want it to become a Vietanam. We don't want our soldiers there, clueless to the type of war they fighting, clueless to the reasons why the Iraq's hate them, and being dumb enough in the middle of propaganda war, to actually film themselves abusing prisoners. Thats what its about.

And the media is not anti-american. The media is anti-war. Get it right.

Arnold can't run, he's not a natural born citizen.