Another American Beheading...

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Originally Posted by pixelassassin

Yeah but you know what, thinking unbiasedly man... how do they have the right to do that?

They don't. It still was the right thing to do, but that doesnt mean it was justified.

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its impossible to think without bias, and right is confered by the availabilty of force, we dress it up in nice sounding words and philosphy, but the truth is, without force to back up your claims, you have no binding "rights". Furthemore, thats a odd way of thinking, what right did we have to remove him? what right do we have to get rid of any despot that comes into power without the will of those he rules and proceeds to install himself as dictator for life. should we apologise to the germans,italians and japanese for ww2?

I dont see how something can be justified but not right. I think what you ment was that it was justified, but the ways we went about it were not right,and in that case, i ask you, as i did ali and never got a response, what other option was there for the justified course of action to come to being? sanctions? they only managfed to hurt the iraqui civilians to endure more burdans while hussien still lived in luxury. Fostering revolt of the iraqui people? they lacked the power to overthrow him, military strongmen are like that. Wait for the un? may as well wait for zeus to descent and zap him with a lightening bolt, the un dosent lift a finger against unelected despots, just ask castro. I just dont see the resonable alternative to get to the "justified" result.

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Originally Posted by Kenshin

Ya, that's great. But it wasn't Iraq.

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Yeah, that's great. We know that.

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Saddam disliked al Qaeda, and al Qaeda disliked Saddam.

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Well, I'm glad you can guarantee us that their common dislike of the US wasn't great enough to put their differences aside.

http://www.usatoday.com/news/opinion...7-hadley_x.htm

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The staff report concludes that:

• Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan."

• "A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994."

• "Contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan."

Chairman Thomas Kean has confirmed: "There were contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy. They were definitely there."

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There's a difference between having ties to al-Qaeda and having worked with them on the 9-11 attacks. Bush stated a few a months ago there was NO evidence they helped plan or had anything to do with the attacks so I dunno what's so hard to understand about that.

What the administration had said in the context of the 9-11 attacks is that we're not gonna wait for a threat to become imminent because by then it's too late. The arguments before the war were mostly centered on the doctrine of preemption. Al-Qaeda ties were never a central theme to the arguments for regime change but listed as auxiliary reasons just like the fact that Saddam was supporting terrorism against Israel by handing out 30,000 dollar checks to families of Palestinian homicide bombers.

It total, the arguments put forth that I heard were:
-Unaccounted for chemical/biological stockpiles since the '98 bombing run.
-Pursuit of nuclear programs.
-Contempt for the '91 cease-fire agreement which led to a total of 16 UN security council resolutions to reaffirm he disarm after his ouster from Kuwaitt and stop playing cat/mouse games with UN weapons inspectors.
-Human rights abuses; torturing, dropping chemical weapons on a Kurdish village as well as against Iranian soldiers, and Shia persecution (later revealed by the mass graves) with an estimated ~300,000 to ~1 million killed in all.
-Al-Qaeda ties.
-Attempted assasination of a former US president (revenge sought - apparently, liberals seem to find this particular one humorous).
-Firing at US/British patrolling planes in the UN No-Fly zones since their establishment (more contempt).
-Long term interests of achieving democracy in the region could help put pressure on neighbors like Syria, Iran, etc.

In the end, technically, we went in on this:
http://frontpagemag.com/Articles/Rea...e.asp?ID=13824

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The justification for sending the military to topple Saddam Hussein was the violation of UN Resolution 1441 – and 16 UN resolutions before that. Resolution 1441 authorized the use of force as of December 7, 2002, the deadline that had been set by the Security Council on November 8, 2002.

Anyone doubting that Saddam violated this resolution can consult the recent memoir written by chief UN weapons inspector Hans Blix, Disarming Iraq. Blix opposed the military option right to the end. But he states very clearly in his book that Saddam failed to meet the requirements of UN Resolution 1441, that he showed his contempt for them in fact, and that they were a legal justification for force.

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And looky here, Putin: We Told U.S. Saddam Was Planning Attacks. Guess he's lying on our behalf.

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Originally Posted by Kenshin

Most of the terrorists were from Saudi Arabia, which is (for some bizzare reason) your *ally*.

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We're well aware of S. Arabia's involvement and its playing of both sides but they have their own unique considerations to take into account. Can't invade 'em and taking a tougher stance would give all the "War on Islam" ppl more ammunition. Bomb dropping Mecca/Medina wouldn't make for great PR. I'm not sure what we should do here. Right now, we're dealing with 'em like we're dealing with Pakistan. It's a wait-and-see approach I guess. Hopefully, now that their terrorists are coming home to roost, they'll crack down and stop the radical Wahabi funding/preaching.

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Originally Posted by NightWolve

Hopefully, now that their terrorists are coming home to roost, they'll crack down and stop the radical Wahabi funding/preaching.

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Unfortunately terrorism is on the increase and it is indeed seen by many as a war on Islam.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Stiiiiiiiiiiiizzzzzz00000000nnnn333333333333


I don't understand why everyone's going nuts over our treatment of those "prisoners". These are scruntfuck terrorists, if the worst thing that ever happens to them is what's going on over there then they got off easy. The bottom line is that when you sign on to be a terrorist you lose your human rights. If you honestly have a big swell of guilt over this shit then you need more tragedy in your life because you're not getting the big picture. Download and watch the video of one of these innocent men being beheaded before you bitch to me about our military putting terrorists in embarassing positions for naked photoshoots. Watch the video of children becoming orphans en masse as their parents jump out of the Trade Center because it's a better death than burning alive. Watch a schoolbus full of innocent children explode in Israel, think about how many parents lost everything they care about in that little explosion. It baffles me how some people forget so quickly the horrors these people are responsible for. There is evil in this world, pitch black evil and it's the duty of those who believe in goodness to stomp it out. To be indifferent towards evil is proactively evil. The people that are bitching about our being in Iraq sound awfully similar to the people that were bitching in the 1940's about our breaking up the Nazi concentration camps. That kind of spineless shit makes me wish the terrorists had flown planes into Michael Moore's local Krispy Kreme instead of the WTC (the hope being that he'd be in their at the time eating lots of donuts like the pig that he is).

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So your saying that we have to essentially lower ourselves to the level of evil, so we can do good? Tell me again the difference between us if we do that.

There is evil in the world and it must be dealt with. What so many of the gung-ho types here are missing is that it was the "fight fire with fire" strategy that got us here IN THE FIRST PLACE. Want to get rid of that nasty dictator in Iran? Sell helicopters to his Iraqui enemy so he can gas them and kill them with biological agents! Want to drive the Soviets out of Afghanistan? Train the locals to use missiles and nasty tactics, supply and finance them, then sit back and watch the fireworks! Want to get rid of that evil ruler in South America? Invalidate his nation's legal elections and install a puppet dictator on a short leash!

Yes, that policy has done so much good in the world. :rolleyes:

The terrorists need to be dealt with, but we can't go around asking for help and then insist on fighting alone. Bush basically decided to demolish a building by himself so he could rattle his saber, but then freaked when he realized the clean up was too much for him alone. Now all of a sudden, international help is important. We need to get the world involved with us in one cohesive and comprehensive strategy. And no, 130,000 U.S. troops and one guy from Bulgaria in not a "coalition."

Country Joe and the Fish
I-Feel-Like-I'm-Fixin'-To-Die

Yeah, come on all of you, big strong men,
Uncle Sam needs your help again.
He's got himself in a terrible jam
Way down yonder in Vietnam
So put down your books and pick up a gun,
We're gonna have a whole lotta fun.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on generals, let's move fast;
Your big chance has come at last.
Gotta go out and get those reds
The only good commie is the one who's dead
And you know that peace can only be won
When we've blown 'em all to kingdom come.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam;
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Huh!

Well, come on Wall Street, don't move slow,
Why man, this is war au-go-go.
There's plenty good money to be made
By supplying the Army with the tools of the trade,
Just hope and pray that if they drop the bomb,
They drop it on the Viet Cong.

And it's one, two, three,
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

Well, come on mothers throughout the land,
Pack your boys off to Vietnam.
Come on fathers, don't hesitate,
Send 'em off before it's too late.
Be the first one on your block
To have your boy come home in a box.

And it's one, two, three
What are we fighting for ?
Don't ask me, I don't give a damn,
Next stop is Vietnam.
And it's five, six, seven,
Open up the pearly gates,
Well there ain't no time to wonder why,
Whoopee! we're all gonna die.

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Originally Posted by Kenshin

The only good commie is the one who's dead

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The nice thing about a godless commie is that he thinks this world's all he's got. Tends to focus the mind.

Pretty hard to reason with a terrorist who believes the more carnage and destruction he manufactures in this world, the greater his reward in the next.

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Originally Posted by The_Meach

Pretty hard to reason with a terrorist who believes the more carnage and destruction he manufactures in this world, the greater his reward in the next.

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"Religion is the opiate of the masses."
- Karl Marx

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Originally Posted by Damian79

Wife beaters exist in every country, hate exists in every country. However now they have good reason to hate, I mean how would you like react if Saddam hypothetically somehow took over America and used the same dictatorship and rule with an iron fist like in Iraq? You are destroying thier way of life, it is only natural to hate those that do so.

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Yes...we destroyed their life of suppression, poverty, and suffering...
grant it, yeah we screwed up in Iraq, but I still think we were justified in going over there. Saddam had been deserving of it for a while, the UN never did anything other than attacking with with warnings. And Iraq wasn't the first action after 9/11 anyway, we went for those who did it..THEN went for Iraq.

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Originally Posted by frostwolf ex

its impossible to think without bias

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and I love you that much more for saying that.. :D

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The staff report concludes that:

• Al-Qaeda leader Osama bin Laden "explored possible cooperation with Iraq during his time in Sudan."

• "A senior Iraqi intelligence officer reportedly made three visits to Sudan, finally meeting bin Laden in 1994."

• "Contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda also occurred after bin Laden had returned to Afghanistan."

Chairman Thomas Kean has confirmed: "There were contacts between Iraq and al-Qaeda, a number of them, some of them a little shadowy. They were definitely there."

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http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/US/09/30/s...msfeld.80s.jpg

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Originally Posted by AstroBlue

http://i.cnn.net/cnn/2002/US/09/30/s...msfeld.80s.jpg

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http://a1636.g.akamai.net/7/1636/797...ideas_0302.jpg
Saddam center; Chirac to the left of him. The deal that led to the building of Iraq's ''Osirak'' reactor only later to be destroyed by those pesky Jews.

I've also seen a pic of one of our presidents smiling next to Joseph Stalin whom he referred to as "Uncle" Joe. How's that for cooperation, eh? And I got a recent one of John F. Kerry meeting up with Communist dictator Daniel Ortega, but that's neither here nor there.

Was there a message of skeletons in the closet you wanted to convey? I don't remember our past relationship with Saddam stopping us from expelling him from Kuwaitt. But hey, I guess you can say at least Chirac/France were consistent in their support for Saddam, whereas we weren't, hence hypocrisy.