I'd call them founding fathers of the hobby that you supposedly love.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Dismissing Yokoi as a "dead guy" is completely insane. Its kind of like saying:
Diffusionx= intelligent poster
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I'd call them founding fathers of the hobby that you supposedly love.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Dismissing Yokoi as a "dead guy" is completely insane. Its kind of like saying:
Diffusionx= intelligent poster
So yeah I heard they built a DS Wi-Fi spot over that dead fuck Yokoi's grave.
Can we not insult the good dead guys who at the very least tried to innovate this industry?
kthx bye.
LOL :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by dog$
Rubbish. The founding fathers of the industry are Bushnell, Baer, Higinbotham, Garriott, Hawkins, Crane, etc. Videogames are fundamentally American, it was Americans who were the founding fathers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
The people that Yoshi mentioned were once once great, now irrelevant people who have been usurped by other developers. If we want to talk about past achievements, certainly all of them should be mentioned, but I wouldnt even put any of them on a B-list of modern developers.
As harsh as this sounds, he's right.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Just think about it. What are some of the most anticipated games for this fall into the beginning of next year?
Halo 2
Doom 3
Half-Life 2 (or as I like to call them, "The Holy Trinity")
GTA: San Andreas
Fable
Gran Turismo 4
Jade Empire
Star Wars: KOTOR 2
Metal Gear Solid 3
Resident Evil 4
Now look at that list. That's a good Top 10 list. How many are from the developers Yoshi mentioned? We are seeing less and less great games coming from these guys, maybe not from lost of creativity, maybe even not from boosted egos; I can't answer that question. But these guys have become more figureheads for their respective companies, especially Miyamoto, Suzuki and Naka, so maybe that has something to do with it.
Point is, when you look at the games that are being released nowadays, the exciting, the innovative, the just cool as hell looking stuff isn't coming from these guys (Quite frankly, it's coming from American studios, but that's for another thread).
Then you'd be completely wrong. Gaming began as an American hobby circa 1970 with Pong, Space War, the Atari 2600, the Commodore 64, Space Invaders, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
The Japanese didn't even become an element until around 1982.
Space Invaders is a Japanese game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
I really think a lot of you guys are struggling with the concept of depth in a game. Mech_Deus is the only person I see that has brought up any points as to why Virtua Fighter is a deeper game than DOA or any other fighting games. A game having a high learning curve does not make it strategically deep. How deep a game is only comes from understanding that game at a high level of play. The longest move list in the world isn't going to save a game from being shallow. This is simply because moves, unless properly balanced, will overlap and simply replace others in most situations. What I mean is, while a game may have many things that you can do, only the number of moves that are effective matter.
First off, I should say that I don't know a damn thing about Dead or Alive. I'm completely talking out of my ass on anything I say about that game pretty much, and I probably shouldn't be even in a DoA thread. But I understand high level play in Tekken (3, Tag, and 4) and Soul Calibur (2 and 1 to a lesser extent). I have watched scads and scads of high-level movies for both of these games and play them myself at a very competitive level. I am also not a Virtua Fighter neophyte. I understand the game quite well, and I'm pretty competent at the game. I do not feel comfortable stating absolutely that Tekken and Soul Calibur are just as deep as Virtua Fighter, mainly because my experience with Virtua Fighter is much more limited. If someone says Virtua Fighter is much deeper strategically than Tekken or Soul Calibur on this board, I feel confident enough in my experience with all three games to call bullshit on him (or at least ask for more clarification).
So basically, I'm calling bullshit on all of you guys that say Virtua Fighter is absolutely deeper than Dead or Alive, Tekken, and Soul Calibur. I'm not saying that you're not correct. I'm just saying that I seriously doubt you're good enough at the games to backup your claims. Look at what StriderKyo says. He says he put some time in the game, but stopped after realizing how "deep" the game was. Sorry, you played the game and saw it had a steep learning curve so you stopped. This has nothing to do with the depth of the game.
So I guess the American developers saved videogaming from the great crash of the early 80's. Ummm no, I think that was Nintendo and Myamoto's Super Mario Bros.
Whatever...
What you said is true, even though it's arguable whether or not we would have come out of it eventually without Nintendo doing it for us.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
But that doesn't change the fact that video games were really invented here. If you talk about founding fathers you really are talking about the people who founded gaming, or the inventors. I know what your statement meant, but that doesn't mean that it was technically true. It's all a matter of semantics.
LOL. Ive talked about this before, but the whole idea of "the great crash" is a myth. I bet if I asked you what caused the crash, you'd say that it was "loads and loads of crappy games for the 2600/Intellivision/Colecovision that were coming out. Then Nintendo saved the industry". That was a load of horse manure that Nintendo used to justify the seal of approval/licensing process for the NES. People bought it hook line and sinker and now sadly it is fact. I forget what book it's in... but umm it might be Game Over, or it might be The First Quarter. You should The First Quarter, at least.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
I'll also tell you while this "great crash" was going on, gaming on the PC/Mac/Atari/Amiga/C64 was still doing great. In fact, some of the best games ever, like Ultima III, came out during this so-called "crash". And the PC platform has been doing just fine for the past 20 years or so without a licensing process.
So yes, yes, the console gaming industry had a slump, a downturn, in the early 1980s, but by no means did the gaming industry as a whole bottom out, and one can argue that Nintendo didn't do the game industry any favors, really, considering they used this "savior of gaming" licensing process to bully retailers and developers... and by 1988 they were just a monstrous monopoly.
Now, Im not trying to say that Japanese game developers are irrelevant to gaming - thatd be nonsense. They've been hugely influential, especially from 85-95, and changed the face of gaming a number of times. However, to call them "founding fathers" would be ridiculous - like calling Abraham Lincoln a founding father. They just aren't founding fathers. It's not the right term. It doesn't work.
So STFU and come back when you know what you're talking about.
While I disagree with the top 10(not exactly my tastes), you are right about the guys becoming figure heads rather than game makers.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonofdonCD
Thogh you can't deny Miyamoto's huge influence to the industry. Super Mario Bros, and Zelda have had a massive impact tot eh industry. Same could be said for Doom, Half Life, Star Craft etc.
Your list proves that American companies are getting better about making great games that cater to American tastes, not that Japanese companies are getting worse. American gamers, for example, are far more into FPS titles than Japanese gamers are, thus you don't see many from Japanese companies, and American companies put more a lot of work into making them, and the games become high profile over here. Simple logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonofdonCD
I think you're seeing more Western games on Western wish lists because Western console game companies, in recent years, are getting better at what they do. The selection of good games aren't just Japanese ones, and as Western-created games are made more for Western audiences, they are more popular.
True, but what I said isn't addressing what you just said. My whole point was in discussing the five specific names mentioned earlier by Yoshi: Miyamoto, Suzuki, Naka, Mikami and Kojima. That list wasn't talking about any sort of decline in Japanese gaming as a whole, but against those five specifically.Quote:
Originally Posted by shidoshi
Go back and reread the conversation right before I posted that remark, then it should be more clear what my point was.
Two. MGS3 is Kojima, and RE4 is Mikami. You'd have to pay me the $50 to play GT4, so I could replace that with Pikmin 2 and get Miyamoto on the list.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonofdonCD
I was so pwned , huh. You got me on some history. Yeah whatever. You mention PC games that were good during the crash. We are talking console games, you fucking poof. I am talking about Japanese developers that created the modern platformer . a developer that practically started action/adventure. These men created worlds and stories, not just blips and bleeps that you "American" forefathers did.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
You can bet your sweet as that if it wasn't for Nintendo's 8 bit system coming out in the mid 80's, that console gaming would not be here today. We would be playing games on the PC and PC only. You Amreican "forefathers" would have been content to let console gaming pass as another "fad"
So please come back at me again and so on and on and on and on...... Then you can just say "you're not worth my time.......pwned"
diffx wins......the cocksucker award :link:
:lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
You either drink too much, or not enough. I'm not sure which.
Point taken.Quote:
Originally Posted by SonofdonCD
If you're talking to me, it must be not enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by MVS
Not you.
Sorry, diffusionx is right here and your post above comes off as insulting to and ignorant of early American contributions to gaming.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
There is no proof that console gaming would not have become popular again in North America without Nintendo. Almost certainly some other company/companies would have taken their place. It happened in Europe. Computer gaming was dominant there in the mid '80s(like in North America) then Sega's Master System increased the popularity of console games. Similar situation, different company.Quote:
You can bet your sweet as that if it wasn't for Nintendo's 8 bit system coming out in the mid 80's, that console gaming would not be here today. We would be playing games on the PC and PC only. You Amreican "forefathers" would have been content to let console gaming pass as another "fad"
So please come back at me again and so on and on and on and on...... Then you can just say "you're not worth my time.......pwned"
You know this kind of thinking is universal to all things. You could apply it to everything. From Newtons physics to Galileo's astronomy to Christopher Columbus's exploration. Regardless, they were the first to get there and thus the reason to give them credit. Same reason, you have to give MS/bill gates the credit for Windows and Nintendo/miyamoto for Mario 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Nintendo deserves a lot of credit for a lot of things. I don't deny that and I wouldn't want to. It just bothers me when people say shit like "We wouldn't be playing console games today without Nintendo" as if it's some sort of fact.
Point taken.
We wouldn't be playing the same KIND of games that we did when Nintendo came out. I am not taking anything away from the master system, but in my opinion, the Master system couldn't hold a candle to the NES (except for Phantasy star)Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
I do think that it came out kind of wrong concerning American developers and such as well. I do acknowledge what they did, hell I had most of Atari's systems and that crappy Atari 800 "computer" keyboard with a cart slot. What I am saying , though is that there was alot of progression made by nintendo concerning gamestyles and ideas. They created genres that we still hold dear to us today.
Most of those genres they didn't create, rather they made them popular with great implementation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
Great idea + shit implementation = forgotten wrok.
Graet idea + great implementation = inspiring work.
True, very true.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian79
Suzuki still leads the VF franchise, that gets more than "washed up status".
What rambling trash.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
Anyway, Ill just comment on one thing, this nonsense about "blips and bleeps". LOL! Games like Ultima III were basically copied by Square (Final Fantasy), Enix (Dragon Warrior), and Nintendo (Legend of Zelda) and were dumbed down for consoles. The structure and style of the game was copied outright. When the developers of games like Ultima, Bard's Tale, Wizardy, Wasteland, etc., were moving past that type of design, console developers were basically fiddling with the same nonsense. There's really nothing fundamentally different, more interactive, more role-playey in FFX-2 or Wind Waker. A lot of people talked about how interactive and what not 1999's Shenmue was, but it was just trying to do what Ultima VII did, in 1991. So you're just talking out your ass here.
Oh, and what's this bullshit with "American" and "forefathers" in quotes? Videogames started in America. Videogames were invented by Americans. Third party publishing was a concept invented by Americans. Americans popularized videogames. This is a fact. Videogames are an American thing, adapted by the Japanese. Not the other way around. If you deny this or try to make up some sorry ass garbage about this and that and semantics you're just wasting your time, because you're wrong.
So, once again... STFU and come back when you know what you're talking about. Im not gonna try to respond intelligently to idiots who cant do anything more than call me a cocksucker when I correct their stupid bullshit.
I think we would be playing the same kind of games because these genres weren't invented on the NES. This was the '80s and most Japanese game styles originated in the arcades. Consoles were still mostly receptacles for downgraded arcade style games. The arcade industry didn't crash. And I was using the SMS as an example of how Nintendo isn't the only company that could have popularized console gaming. The quality of the system wasn't relevant to my point(although the system was awesome). It's all about marketing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Changeling
Super Mario Bros. also borrowed from Pitfall, a game made by Americans.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
I don't see where Diffx gets Kojima as a washed-up has been, yet praises the KING (or maybe I should say Lord?) of washed-up has beens Richard "Gaming's First Cosplayer" Garriott. If you don't believe me then we can just compare the domestic sales of MGS3 and Tabula Rosa. I think the figures will speak for themselves.
Now, don't get me wrong, I know as well as the next gamer that the concept of videogames is All-American, but their are still quite a few good developers in Japan. Simply because the bulk of good game development has gone to the U.S. and Europe doesn't mean there isn't anything left in Japan.
Garriott's Ultima Online did revolution online gaming, you know, but yea that was in 1997. Is he past his prime? Definitely, and Tabula Rosa doesnt look that hot. But in any case, I wasnt talking about Garriott 2004, I was talking about Garriott 1984, when he was still awesome and changing gaming. Just like I wasnt talking about Miyamato 1988 or what not. And the guy is crazy. Very crazy.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
Uh
You were 2 years old. How about stop talking about stuff you have no clue about.
UhQuote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
I played the games, asshat. I've also, through the magic of technology, been able to play games that came out before I was born. Oh, and Ive even seen movies that came out before I was born! Amazing, right?
But I guess that doesnt matter too much in your fucked up little world, does it?
Unless you play it the week it comes out it means NOTHING.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Comebacks don't need to be that virulent. Try and reign it in.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
You're missing the point. You're just trying to talk like you're some kind of "hardcore" gamer because you played the original Ultima, which is total crap.
Bitch, you're talking to the guy that coached the 2004 Atari 2600 champion. Recognize.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
I heard he was all like "Don't lose. And don't forget to shoot those little blips." and the guy didn't. Awesome.
Sorry, but if anyone missed the point, it's you. He brought up Ultima because it was one of the first electronic RPGs. That was it. It was early. Earlier then Japanese electronic RPGs. Nothing to do about how good he was at it, or how if you don't play Ultima you're a little pansy, or how if you haven't played Ultima you don't know what you're talking about even the point doesn't require anyone to play any of those games (matter of fact, it was you that brought that last one up).Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
Fuck you guys, I was there when they were beta testing Marbles at Caveman Hurrrrrrrrg's cave in SoCal BILLIONS OF YEARS AGO.
I won that tournament.
So ummm yeah about DOAU, those chix are so hawt...Woot! :rolleyes:
Once again, you go back to a PC game and prove my point. You are right, though, videogames were started in America. And your point is........ ??Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Why don't you attack your "washed up" developers that did the PC games you mentioned?? Simple. Because you like them. No harm there, no foul. Then again, I wasn't the one making retarded comments discounting their efforts like you did with the crazy japanese developers that must have threw your baby in a lake or something. Seriously, whats with all of the hatred towards them?
:link: wants to hold you . Don't push him away.
Once again... I said that these developers were great, and now they are not. Calling someone a "has-been" implies that there was a time in which they were great.Quote:
Why don't you attack your "washed up" developers that did the PC games you mentioned?? Simple. Because you like them. No harm there, no foul. Then again, I wasn't the one making retarded comments discounting their efforts like you did with the crazy japanese developers that must have threw your baby in a lake or something. Seriously, whats with all of the hatred towards them?
Nobody needs to fellate Miyamato or Naka, we know about the good things they did back then. But now... they suck. They're has-beens. Its as simple as that. I dont hate them, but I also dont think they are top developers anymore. I proved my point by listing them off and their dubious achievements of the past few years, and you equated that with hate for some bizarre reason.
Yeah Virtua Fighter 4 EVO and the new Legend of Zelda are works of developers whose time has simply passed them by. I could go on and on over games that are coming out and games that have recently came out, but it isn't going to matter to you. Their works are overshadowed because there are so many more good games coming out these days(alot from American developers) but you simply cannot discount their works and call them washed up has-beens. It doesn't make sense. Sales numbers don't lie. I love good games, regardless of the nationality of the developers. Hell, UT2004 is by far, my favorite game of the past couple years. I'm looking forward to the new Metroid as much as anyone. The thing is, is that I am not taking silly side or what-not. I like good games, regardless of where they originate. I just don't go around throwing stupid comments around about great gam-makers being has-beens.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Sorry for calling you a cock-sucker though. However, I did enjoy calling you a poof. :)
I'm bored. See you.
The new Legend of Zelda? Wind Waker you mean? That game was (01) not done by Miyamato (he took the bullshit "oversight" role he has taken in just about every game this generation except for Pikmin and that Pac-Man crap), (02) not that good either. Ive said it before, but while the game was executed well it was so similar to old Zeldas that I didnt even have fun with it. I've seen all the puzzles, story elements, everything, in other Zelda games (which I all played, fiendishly). It was just a rehash with amazing graphics. But that's another topic entirely.
Wow, your reasoning can be applied to most of the games you love. KOTOR doesn't break new ground. Oh they're washed up. Vice City doesn't either. Neither do most of the top games now. Except YOU like them, so for some reason, they're different.
Furthermore, back to Garriot in 84. Ultima is unplayable crap now. I'd go so far as to say it was then too (which was the original point). Hasn't aged well at all. You can't say the same thing about Super Mario Bros. (well, you can, but you'd be wrong).
Vice City was one game that was designed to piggyback off the success of Grand Theft Auto 3. Anyone with half a brain can look at what DMA is doing with San Andreas and tell you that they are putting some serious work into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
KOTOR was by far the best simulation of the Star Wars universe ever (a big achievement), had a great, usable turn-based combat system, and nailed the dark/light jedi alignment thing. It was one of the few RPGs of the past... 5 years or so, since Black Isle folded, that actually let you, umm.. play a role! Whoop! Also, on a more subtle level, the game had some amazing puzzle design, like the one where you had to figure out the true murderer. Really great stuff, holla.
As for Wind Waker, the game played exactly the same as Ocarina of Time, albeit with a completely annoying and awful wind boat system. Zelda games have played exactly the same for the past decade (people even said Miyamato did an amazing job translating the 2D gameplay into 3D - yea he did it without innovating). Completely different situation from Vice City.
Now, will you please try to do something other than follow me around and act like a huge gaping vagina towards everything I say?
Wow, so you've played SA? Amazing! As for KOTOR, that's your opinion dude. That says nothing about he actual game. I thought it was total rubbish in the vein of NWN. The party AI sucks, the puzzles sucked, the quests suck and it didn't even have multiplayer. Look at me! I did the same thing you just did!
Read a preview.Quote:
Wow, so you've played SA?
Oh... don't forget this.
Quote:
Now, will you please try to do something other than follow me around and act like a huge gaping vagina towards everything I say?
Well, make an argument that actually has a point, then.
"Read a preview"
Yeah, I read glowing previews of tons of games that got lambasted. Your point? Oh you don't have one. As usual.
Here's my point: you are a dumb annoying vagina.
Um...good one?
Let's give him a hand folks!
Man, Joust, I do hope you relay this back to Master and PaCrappa when you go and have your wonderful in-real-life-conversations-about-the-internet. You know, the type of conversations that I didn't want to have with burgundy and Josh (because I dont want to talk about the internet). Then you can all talk about how cool you are and you can coach Master how to play 2600 and Tempest. Then we can all be sad because we are not in this group and into these sort of stimulating conversations.
Be sure to tell them that you follow me around like a little girl in awe of the bully in grade school. They'll know just what you mean, I am sure.
Somehow that doesn't seem like it has anything to do with the conversation at hand. But should I expect anything different?
If you want to talk games, bring meat to the table. Not "I played these games and now I don't so it sucks".
See the ignore thing? Click that, like you said you were going to do yesterday.
As much as you would like me to ignore you, because then I know your love affair for me will only grow, like a stupid high school girl in love with the boyfriend that treats her like shit... I not only never said I was going to put you on ignore (I was referring to MVS), I have no plans to. I do want to see what my #1 admirer says, all the time. It's just courtesy.
can this move to fight club now? Go back to your home on Whore Island!
Wrong thread. Locked.