http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6199779/site/newsweek/
Quote:
"Japan's game publishers used to be on top of the world. Now they're losing out to U.S. and European rivals. What happened?"
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http://msnbc.msn.com/id/6199779/site/newsweek/
Quote:
"Japan's game publishers used to be on top of the world. Now they're losing out to U.S. and European rivals. What happened?"
IBTN.
source: MSNBC
yea, thanks.
"console-software sales have shrunk from $3.4 billion in 1998 to $2.2 billion last year, a 35 percent drop"Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas
That's the most alarming number of them all.
This is news to be believed.Quote:
Which leads to another of the Japanese firms' woes: its game creators are allowed to act like prima donnas. Even though gaming has become an $18-billion-a-year global business, Japanese firms still pretend it's a cottage industry.
By N'Gai CroalQuote:
Originally Posted by johnk_
Newsweek
Second to Steven Kent on the list of gaming journalists that aren't pure shit.
Crap games are selling better than good ones? I believe this news.
Looking at my own personal collection, not counting Halo, the first American made game from this generation is ranked 26th by myself. I still think Japan is making the best non-racing games around.
The best games, yes, but the point of the article is that (as we all know) that's not what's selling.
But the point of this thread is "Japan sucks."Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsnarf
Makes some sense, Western developers have been in the game for a while, just not as huge as they are now. Just KOTOR puts alot of JRPG's to shame.
A lot.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
If this was 1990 and not 2004, I'd agree with you.Quote:
Originally Posted by lordsnarf
Considering that EA alone has a 25% marketshare, it isn't about great games selling, just the most publicized.
I see alot more commercials for Nintendo games than I do EA.Quote:
Originally Posted by Damian79
I think the situation with consoles not doing as well in Japan has more to do with the increase in cell phone games overseas. If I remember reading correctly sometime ago, the cell game market has skyrocketed, which in turn limits money for people to buy other types of games (console, arcade, PC). Yeah, some of the developers are not thinking far enough. But you can't say that when looking at games like Ace Combat 5.
Do you watch Saturday morning cartoons exclusively?Quote:
Originally Posted by Roufuss
And Nintendo is next with 10%. :/Quote:
Originally Posted by Roufuss
It's just what channels you watch.Quote:
Originally Posted by Roufuss
I never once saw the Pikmin 2 commercial on TV, but I've seen the buy two get a second one free EA commercial about a million times.
I saw the Pikmin commerical quite a few times. I haven't seen the EA commerical once (I don't watch much aired tv either, though).
I still think Japan has got the skills to make some great games, but the games they produce feel like they're from a different era.
A lot of American/European made games feel like they are doing new and interesting ideas. Burnout 3's variety of online modes? Genius. Hell.. Just online gaming in general that isn't slow and clunky, genius and due to the non-japanese markets.
I think Japan can still produce a killer title and get some of the American market share back, I just think they're going to have to work harder than they ever have before and stop thinking about their homeland with no regaurd to the rest of the world.
Since gamers are getting older ... why hasn't the advertising followed them? I rarely see (non-sports) video game ads during sporting events, etc.
I suppose certain areas run them more than others.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
For example, I've never seen a buy two get a second one free EA commercial but I saw that Donkey Konga one about a million times.
Take a look at a game like Shadow Hearts: Covenant and tell me that Japan isn't making good games anymore. Unfortunately, no one is noticing.
The "EA" theory is incorrect: selling more games /= making better games.
you're right.. that's Newsweek.. my bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas
still, I think we wouldn't see the originality and variety in games that we do now without Japan..
I also believe their games tend to be more polished overall, with a couple of exceptions, of course.
SegaQuote:
Originally Posted by johnk_
SNK
Because they're stupid.Quote:
Since gamers are getting older ... why hasn't the advertising followed them? I rarely see (non-sports) video game ads during sporting events, etc.
Seriously, given the choice between throwing a stupid promo event that only .00000001% of a city will see and whose attendees mostly already know of their wares anyway, or using that money to put up ads on TV or on mass transit or billboards that hundreds of thousands, maybe even millions, would see, to possibly put something in the minds of people who don't already know of its existence, they'll go with the stupid promo event every time.
Cause there are still younger gamers out there that need the jump start we all got.Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic
KOTOR is still better and it's a year older. North America wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by haohmaru
I once saw a Chrono Cross commercial at like... 11 o'clock at night. Why bother? I think it was on Disney... maybe but I don't recall exactly. Either way, I thought it was a horrible time to put on a commercial.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DjRocca
I understand the idea of "get them young, get a customer for life"... but the people who buy the games are 19+ yrs old. Go where the money is.
Most of my friends who still play games, do not keep up on everything via the internet. They usually stick to the popular titles (read as: EA, Nintendo) or games the cross over into the mainstream (EQ, GTA).
Since the gaming industry is as big as Hollywood ... they need to start advertising like Hollywood does (promotional trailers in movie theatres, toy tie-ins at fast food places, billboards, etc).
Nope, I don't think so. The two are entirely different and incomparable. Both win.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas
Same here, and this was on Comedy Central, so nice try, MarkRyan.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
They do all of these things, chief.Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic
Anyway, this article just tells me what I alreayd know - that the gaming market in Japan is irrelevant and will continue to be more irrelevant as time goes on. I wouldnt be surprised to see another 35% drop.
Really, the only reason why people care about gaming in Japan is because Sony is a Japanese company (so they cater to them). Thankfully, Microsoft has broken the stranglehold of Japanese console manufacturers, and if they were smart they would realize that they dont even need the Japanese market.
As for Japanese games? Theyve gotten worse and worse as time goes on while North American and European ones get better. There WAS a time, not too long ago, when Japanese games were consistently better in all genres on consoles. Now? No way. Not even close.
We Americans have simply taken back what is rightfully ours. Hoo-aaa!
To be fair, when comparing single countries Japan doesn't look so bad. Great Western games are coming from a variety of locations: US, UK, Canada, France, etc. whereas great Eastern games are almost entirely from Japan(Korea and Hong Kong aren't very impressive).Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Try watching ESPN. That's where EA spends it's money. It's a perfect fit, for the demographic they're aiming for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Will
If you watch football, EA spends money on Madden and NBA Live ads there as well.
What great Eastern games? What great ones are still coming out?Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
I never saw one EA ad the entire time I was watching football, weird =/Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Can't really think of one I've seen in the last couple of weeks, except for that shitty NBA Live ad that I saw while I was flipping channels.
I know they're still the same games they were in 1998 but...Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Damn it, Bemani games still come out, and they rock harder than anything from any developer.
I'm calling bullshit. Outside of BioWare and Rockstar North, what Western but non-US developers are making great games right now? Perhaps this is just ignorance on my part, but nothing is coming to mind.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Recently - Pikmin 2, OutRun 2, Astroboy(GBA), Otogi 2. They're probably not your thing though.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
EA Canada makes good stuff although it's not my kind of thing. Ubisoft Montreal has Prince of Persia. France has Beyond Good & Evil and Kya(I think it's great, most haven't played it), I'm looking forward to Norway's The Longest Journey sequel, Finland has Max Payne, Starbreeze of Sweden made Riddick on Xbox.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
And Devil May Cry 3 hopefully.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
Ubi Soft: BG&E and Prince of Persia.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Bizarre Creations: Project Gotham Racing
Visual Concepts: ESPN Football, ESPN NBA and ESPN NHL 2K5.
Looks like Neo beat me to it. ;)
You are acutally going to argue with NeoZeedeater?Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Good luck with that.
ok, so I was right. I still haven't played PoP, so I can't comment on that, but I wouldn't call any of the rest of those great. Yes, I am a jaded son of a bitch, but you already knew that.Quote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
edit: I almost forgot...
USA! USA! USA!
UbiSoft Montreal (Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow multiplayer, Prince of Persia, PoP 2, Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Ancel's Ubisoft Team (BG&E)
EA Canada (the SSX games, among others)
Codemasters (TOCA Race Driver 2)
Free Radical (Timesplitters 2, Timesplitters 3, Second Sight)
Just a few that come to mind. UbiSoft Montreal alone has produced more Grade A titles than most Japanese publishers in the past year.
Oh, I just remembered one I know Yoshi likes, Freedom Force. It was developed by Irrational Games' Australian team.
unreal tournament 2004. duh.
Splinter Cell: Pandora Tomorrow was done in Shanghai, not Montreal.Quote:
Originally Posted by sleeveboy
Codemasters' Colin McRae games.
DICE's RalliSport Challenge and Battlefield games.
They're European.
I believe the single player was done in Shanghai, and the multiplayer in Montreal. Could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by JefmcC
Which would still make them "Western", eh?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
the good half (multiplayer) is montreal's, if i remember correctly.Quote:
Originally Posted by JefmcC
Western-developed games that fit into the genres that Japanese developers focus on are by and large crappy. There's two different types of RPGs. The JRPGs, which aren't RPGs so much as they are adventure games with leveling up, and the CRPGs, which is what KoTOR is. Not really a comparison. Japan's always (well, for the last bunch of years) been about JRPGs, platformers, rhythm games and arcade-type games, and they're still better in Japan. About the only thing that US has taken over is the racing genre, but since I contend that F-Zero GX is still the best arcade racer, I think even that one's arguable.
You can argue that sales determines quality and all that, but since most of you think most people are idiots anyhow, I don't see why you'd fall back on that. Just play what you like.
What US racing games are worth mentioning?Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
I meant Western
You only need PGR 2. Everything else is extra.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
That isn't a US game, though, which was his point.
I wasn't aware of that. Where was it developed then?
*Edit: I see it now, ok.
I still haven't caught onto the "western wave" that's going on. I'm trying to open myself up to more western games, but it just isn't happening. I'm interested in next to nothing as far as PC gaming goes. Even Halo 2 doesn't spark one bit of excitement in me.
I have a feeling I'll still be primarily focused on Japan in the forseeable future, as far as gaming goes. And strangely, that doesn't bother me too much.
You're going to take Metroid Prime 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, Zelda, and Resident Evil 4 over Grand Theft Auto, Mortal Kombat, and KOTOR 2?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilykat
Guess what, you win.
Uhh... same as the first one, piece of shit, same as every zelda ever, and piece of shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
Jade Empire is coming out at around the same time Zelda does, and guess what, its gonna shit all over it.
Actually, I'm going to take MGS3, Zelda, and GTA: San Andreas out of that bag. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
Quote:
Originally Posted by Wilykat
NOT ALLOWED. GAMES MUST BE SELECTED BY REGION ONLY.
You are indeed the funniest man on these boards.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
KOTOR and Baldur's Gate 2 shit all over Wind Waker, Ocarina of Time, and Majora's Mask, so it's not unreasonable to expect the same from Jade Empire.
Bioware > everything.
Erm, Metroid Prime 2, like the first, is done by Texans.Quote:
You're going to take Metroid Prime 2, Metal Gear Solid 3, Zelda, and Resident Evil 4 over Grand Theft Auto, Mortal Kombat, and KOTOR 2?
Japan still kicks the holy hell out of western devs when it comes to character design and artistic style. Though we're not as hopelessly incompetent as we once were.
The death of Acclaim only helped that.
Shall I be the first one to point out that Metroid Prime 2 is technically a Western game (what with Retro being based in Texas)?
Also, I'm glad MarkRyan threw MGS3 into his little East Vs. West showdown, or else I'd be forced to agree 100% with an IGN staffer. I just can't bring myself to care about the MGS games at all.
...Although I would take the new GTA over RE4, as well, but that's just because I'm mad at Capcom for totally changing the game from what they originally showed. :x
EDIT: Dammit, outresponded!
Comedy gold AGAIN. You should get into stand-up.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Those games are so very different from each other, there's next to no point in going "nyah better!".Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Arguing Japanese vs Western gaming isn't as easy as arguing North American vs European gaming.
Seriously, after that lackluster demo, SCREW MGS3.
KOTOR is amazing, but Baldur's Gate 2 is crap.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Another thing: How can you say anything shits on Ocarina of Time when the world agrees it doesn't get much better?
No, not really. No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cheebs
Bemani is in a niche group of games, and no Bemani game makes it onto the charts anymore. The only people who play them are the hardcore losers who are hoping the series will get the kick in the ass it needs to make it popular again. It was a fad. Plain and simple.
LAWWWL!Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
"even if you are a minority of one, the truth is still the truth".Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
You guys complain constantly about how mags give games with a lot of hype great scores even if they dont necessarilly deserve it. All of the sudden, though all these mags that gave one of the most hyped games of all times great scores are right on? Give me a break.
Ocarina of Time was riding an unbelievable wave of hype and these mags had went years without kissing Miyamoto's ass. They needed to get that out of them.
Dude, the world agrees that Grand Theft Auto is awesome, and that Mortal Kombat is better than Street Fighter. The world is not right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
EDIT: ...My point isn't that Ocarina of Time isn't good. It's that using the "world opinion" to determine truth is worthless.
I personally thought the game was awesome because of what I played, not because of any hype.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Jade Empire will flop, I'm sure. I enjoyed Ocarina of Time 10 times more than KOTOR, but that's only one opinion. If KOTOR was the end all RPG like everyone tout's, why isn't that #1 on gamerankings? It's a classic, plain and simple. Majora's Mask was horrible and the world agree's. Just because you hate Nintendo doesn't mean they don't produce quality software, it just means you're bitter.
How many people, other than you, do you know that dislike GTA? I only know of one person that doesn't think they are fun games. That person is you.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
Isn't the Dreamcast version of Third Strike flawed in more ways than one?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
More times than not it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
Dude, people on TNL complain about the quality of reviews ALL THE TIME ON TNL (including me). So why are these reviews all of the sudden right? Like when a big hyped game like Fable gets great reviews everyone says, "because of the hype". So now, Im saying the reason why OOT got great reviews from everyone is, "because of the hype".Quote:
Originally Posted by iidx Nick
Oh really?Quote:
Majora's Mask was horrible and the world agree's.
They did produce quality software, just not anymore.Quote:
Just because you hate Nintendo doesn't mean they don't produce quality software, it just means you're bitter.
No...no it is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
Since when does diff, someone who bitches out ANYONE for not liking something the way he does, go with a "minority of one" philosophy?
Stop the ad hominem attacks. A million people that are incorrect are still incorrect. (Then again, that would be calling people's opinions wrong; where in this case it is just a case of an opinion completely unsupported from both sides of the argument.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
It does -- the parry timing is all wacky and they took out some (all?) of the unblockable setups. Do you honestly believe that the people who whore the reviews are knowledgable enough to notice and take offense to that and still rate Mortal Kombat:Deception higher? No way in hell.Quote:
Isn't the Dreamcast version of Third Strike flawed in more ways than one?
When he is the minority of one.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
(I could also respond the same way about Jade Empire the way he dismissed Metroid Prime 2 and the new Zelda game by calling it "more of the same," pointing to KotOR and Baldur's Gate (2), but then he would jump all over me for that.)
-Dippy
Because you'd be completely wrong. You have to be insane to think that those games are similar to each other. You'd have to be downright retarded, like Corky from Life Goes On type retarded, to think that JE/KOTOR/BG2 are as similar to each other as MP/MP2 or WW/newLOZ are.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dipstick
Retro is from the US, so they are my boys, and indeed, Metroid Prime is the best Nintendo game of this generation, but still... MP2 is the same shit as MP1.
Don't you get it? Every Japanese sequel is redundant, more-of-the-same tripe. Every Western sequel is groundbreaking and amazing.
Satire saves the day.
Also, I wouldn't count MP2 being more of the same as a fault, considering how enjoyable the first one was. Sometimes you'd just rather buy a game you know is going to be good than risk your cash on something totally unfamiliar.
The Laws of Statistics say you're a moron.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Wow, where to begin...
Dissing Zelda OOT? That's nearly criminal. To call the game anything other than a classic only serves to display how truly out of touch you really are. The game was groundbreaking and having "Zelda" in the title had nothing to do with anything. There's a difference between acknowledging that you don't like a particular piece of software with saying that it's a piece of shit. In this case, the truth is the truth regardless of your interpretation of some obtuse Confucious saying from nearly two millenium ago.
That's too old to count. :PQuote:
Originally Posted by NeoZeedeater
IBTNQuote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
yknow, for the first few hours, i thought this thread wouldn't implode.
But.... this is TNL! It doesn't disappoint. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by epmode
Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
You are not helping PC gamers by making these type of comments.
So yea .. this thread was pretty cool when I left .. then it went downhill ..
Didn't Retro develop the Metroid Prime games?Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoofNee
Quote:
Originally Posted by Bacon McShig
Welcome to two hours ago (and twenty-five posts back).Quote:
Originally Posted by Shadow Not Shade
-Dippy
I routinely see Fable ads on ESPN.Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic
Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Ubisoft. Montreal is making some fine fine games, second only to Austin in my book.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
MP2 is (being) made in Texas. Published by Nintendo (so if that counts as Japanese, then Shadow Hearts: Covenant counts as American since Midway is publishing it). KOTOR 2, Jade Empire, Unreal Championship 2, Halo 2 and Half-Life 2 seem like clealy good choices to me, though I won't argue for better, thats diffx's job apperantly.
Nine times out of ten, I will pick a Japanese game over a Western one. Actually, unless the game is an great FPS or GTA, I will pick a Japanese game from the shelf. Apparently, going by this article, that means I'm on the road to being in the minority. I'm used to that. I'm fine with that.
The problem arises when this begins to mean less Japanese games being translated. That would suck and force me to start memorizing kanji every day again. I could do without that :P
You are mistaken--Metroid Prime is an American-developed game. Get the facts straight.Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
Isn't this whole thread kind of like saying "I only buy American cars". When in fact, every car has Japanese/foriegn components in it?
Isn't Japanese ideas/money/companies/talent so embedded into our gaming culture that its pointless to label anything as NA or Japanese?
can't we all just get along? (puts away his +10 common sense, vorpal sword)
I'm sure the case could be argued fairly convincingly .... but no.Quote:
Originally Posted by toxic
Ive studied statistics. Which law are you talking about? The law of large numbers? The law of likelihood? The law of averages?Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
Enlighten me.
I'm looking at many of them collectively.
Let's look at this whole situation. What are we trying to do? We are trying to compare game's worth based on opinion. This is a tricky thing to do, seeing as how everyone has a different opinion and no one person's opinion is any more valuable than anyone else's. Not even yours Diffx. So what's a statistically acceptable way to compare two games when all we have are opinions? A simple random sample of the Population! But there is a problem, we don't have the means to sample the entire population! Oh noes! So what can we do now? Well we could combine a lot of smaller samples (I.E. review scores) from all over the world into one larger sample and go by that!
If you can give me a better way, which we here could do, to judge something as trivial as opinion, I would like to hear it.
Easy. If it jives with my opinion, the opinion in question is valid. If it contradicts my opinion outright, the opinion in question is most definitely wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
That's all very nice. But I presented my argument already. Ill spell it out, yet again:
01. People on TNL often complain that much-hyped games have inflated review scores.
02. Zelda Ocarina of Time was a much-hyped game.
03. Zelda Ocarina of Time had incredibly high review scores.
So what am I saying? Im saying that OOT, being a much-hyped game, got inflated review scores. If I was reviewing the game, I would've given it maybe an 8/10 - it was fun, but played a lot like old Zelda games and didnt do much that was new. The lock-on control system was fun but underutilized. The story was the same shite you see in every Zelda game. The year it came out, 1998, had a LOT of amazing games, and certainly many of them were even better than OOT, like Half-Life or Grim Fandango. Yea, yea, "you cant compare an adventure game to an FPS or to... an adventure game". Okay.
But it was the big game from Miyamoto, back when Miyamoto was still good, and the game was anticipated for years, and all the mags were declaring how amazing it was gonna be for years, so it's no surprise it got such good reviews.
Fable was prased as the second coming, it was hype to no measurable end, and it's averaging an 86% at Gamerankings. So tell me again about how hype makes reviews.