Hype, Disappointment, and the "Hardcore"

I wanted to discuss an issue that I find to be both numerous and annoying.

I’ve noticed that games like Fable, Final Fantasy X-2 and even oldies like Super Mario Sunshine are being judged way too harshly. I’ve read endless things on boards such as these saying Fable is a horrible game and a complete piece of trash, but the truth is it’s just a good game that was supposed to be incredible. I find it hilarious that people will attack a game that is good just because it’s not the best ever in it’s genre, yet no one goes out of their way to attack games that are far inferior. Why does this happen? Are people angry that they bought into the hype, and this fuels anger towards an otherwise good game? If Fable wasn’t advertised as heavily and hyped to the extent it was, would it be more accepted amongst the “hardcore”?

Where is the hate for GoDai: Elemental Force, McFarlane's Evil Prophecy, The Sum of All Fears and Drake of the 99 Dragons? What sets these games apart? Why is it un-cool to hate on the really shitty games?

Thoughts?

Nobody buys games like Evil Prophecy and Drake. So they dont complain about it. But if you spend money on a game and am bitterly dissapointed in it (like I was with JSRF or Shenmue or the GBA), well, you wasted money. This is America, we love our money. It turns vitriolic.

It could be "un-cool" to hate on the truly shitty games because everything bad about them has been said. In the case of Drake, it's so bad that even I hated it.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Nobody buys games like Evil Prophecy and Drake. So they dont complain about it. But if you spend money on a game and am bitterly dissapointed in it (like I was with JSRF or Shenmue or the GBA), well, you wasted money. This is America, we love our money. It turns vitriolic.

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Well I understand that you were disappointed in JSRF, but do you think it was a bad game when price isn't an issue?

It's about 3 dollars for a used copy now. If you had waited until now to pick it up, do you think you would hold as much against it? What if you had received a copy for free, would you be as disappointed with it? Is it just because of the amount of money you lost that you dislike it?

It's mostly in the hype machine. People basically come to expect too much of something, and are unsurprisingly dissatisfied when they see the less grandiose reality of it.

Peer pressure ultimately has its way and people end up publicly ragging on something they likely don't know enough about. Story of the world.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Are people angry that they bought into the hype, and this fuels anger towards an otherwise good game?

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People get high expectations, think they're about to feel an electrical orgasm, and wind up with a game that is good but not mind-blowing. The fall there is higher for many instead of when a game is never/rarely mentioned and is then so poor that it gets even more ignored. Fable is a pretty good action-RPG with a lot of cool touches but that's not what a lot of people ended up thinking it was going to be, so they all complained that it was crap because it the final product wasn't "Morrowind with good NPCs, a great combat system, evolving characters, and rape" or whatever.

Or for instance: Drake is supposedly a terrible, terrible game, has always been mentioned as such and no one has ever said anything good about it. Thus, why would any of us have any desire to pick it up (excluding Morphix's collection obsession) and experience crap? We wouldn't (or shouldn't) and thus we don't bitch about it because we were bright enough to not subject ourselves to it in the first place.

Then comes backlash from opposing feelings to other people. When some people praise a game (perhaps endlessly) there are times that those who thought it was merely okay at best will exaggerate its bad points as a way of counteracting those who think the game is better than it really is (possibly subconciously). It does kind of irk me when people claim a game is "the worst game ever" or "the worst game in its genre" or whatever when it's nowhere even close to the actuality of that, and they could just say "it's pretty bad" or something.

[edit] Beaten to the punch.

Also, too many damn green Master Chief avatars, you guys need to start at least picking different colors because I've having trouble keeping you all seperate.

High expectations = greater potential for disappointment when the game fails. We get pissed that our high hopes are a total waste of time and take it out on the game that failed us. Personally I've got nothing against Mario Sunshine, and because I never cared about Fable one way or another its average-ness (not really a word but an amazing simulation) doesn't make me bat an eye. If Katamari Damacy or Rez had failed, and both games are ones I'd been tracking since I first heard of them, then I'd probably still be annoyed at the lost opportunity they represented.

My personal example of what you're talking about: GTA: San Andreas. It's merely another boring game, but after the glory of GTA3 it seems like a dagger in the back. Its negative effects are strong enough that I'm considering passing on San Andreas for a while, maybe waiting until the X-Box version.

Oddly enough, the kind of hate you're talking about is also aimed at Acclaim.

James

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Well I understand that you were disappointed in JSRF, but do you think it was a bad game when price isn't an issue?

It's about 3 dollars for a used copy now. If you had waited until now to pick it up, do you think you would hold as much against it? What if you had received a copy for free, would you be as disappointed with it? Is it just because of the amount of money you lost that you dislike it?

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I ended up returning the game so it really didnt cost me anything. This was before the change in return policies. Another part of it is expectation, you know. You expect a high-profile game from one of the big companies, a sequel to a game that was GOTY for many, to be good.

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Originally Posted by MechDeus

Pbacklash from opposing feelings to other people. When some people praise a game (perhaps endlessly) there are times that those who thought it was merely okay at best will exaggerate its bad points as a way of counteracting those who think the game is better than it really is (possibly subconciously).

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I do this quite a bit w/un-serious subjects (movies, games, TV). I feel I have to make strenuous objections to counter-act all the (undeserved) praise coming from the other side.

Also, ppl *love* to put something else down (for whatever reason, but mostly to make themselves feel superior). Not the greatest ever? Well, it must suck. SEE: MSG BOARDS

When people don't get what they think they've been promised, they feel cheated, and that turns to anger, and hate leads to the dark side.*

Happens to the best of us, and is likely to happen to many with ever major release, no matter the quality of the actual game. Which is why I'm keeping my expectations way down for Halo 2.

*copyright Lucasfilms Inc. all rights reserved.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Drake of the 99 Dragons?

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are you new?

http://www.pimp-productions.com/reviews/drake.php

I just read that review, why did you go through all that pain?

I got Fable for free.

I thought it was Purgatory: the Game. Bland and boring character designs, bland and boring environments, a story I couldn't care less about, boring missions, easy and boring combat... it didn't really do anything WRONG, per se, but it didn't do anything interesting or particularly good, either. I'm not judging it harshly, and I never even listened to the hype. I forgot it existed until TNL started talking about it about a week before its release.

I think Fable sucks.

I didn't really hate Fable because of the hype either, even though it was pretty disappointing, I just found it a lackluster game. I hated the combat, I tried loving it at one point and I did for like an hour, until I realized how lame it was again.

All feelings aside, its an average game that takes stuff from alot of other popular titles and tries to make it work. Well it didn't.

I bought Fable day one, so I was definitely anticipating it, but my standards for it weren't nearly as out of proportion as most. I was expecting it to be better than average at best, and only enjoyable at worst. Considering the way it was touted, I felt that was a realistic expectation.

I played 2 sittings in the first few days, maybe 2 hours total, and haven't touched it since. I still keep it around to give it a fair chance, but I almost dread playing it. The world looks nice, but the characters and plot (the most important elements of an RPG, natch) thus far are absolutely horrendous.

Main Entry: hard core
Function: noun
1 : a central or fundamental and usually enduring group or part: as a : a relatively small enduring core of society marked by apparent resistance to change or inability to escape a persistent wretched condition (as poverty or chronic unemployment) b : a militant or fiercely loyal faction

God I hate that word used with gamers.

Anyways, the hate on hyped games is just louder than for par or sub-par games it is not any worse. Also because of the hype you have illiterate douches that want to complain to more people than their friends come out of the woodworks all over the net.

"omg dud fble is teh sux. kant blivei wnted teh gamez. GTA5 allz thez wayz, fuck ths shiz." Oh shit I forgot to hit caps lock.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Well I understand that you were disappointed in JSRF, but do you think it was a bad game when price isn't an issue?

It's about 3 dollars for a used copy now. If you had waited until now to pick it up, do you think you would hold as much against it? What if you had received a copy for free, would you be as disappointed with it? Is it just because of the amount of money you lost that you dislike it?

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Sometimes price dosen't matter.

I got Megaman X7 for 5 bucks, and it sucks so bad, and I'm relived I didn't pay 50. Sometimes it's not the amount of money if you feel the game is truly garbage.

When you are into something for a long time, you get to experience the best and worst of that something and will, over time, discover what you like and what you don't like. Then there are two options you can take:

1) Take everything as it comes where everything has something to offer, and appreciate it for that.

or

2) Find that everything that doesn't match your built-over-time standards is a waste of your time and money. You will only be looking for best of best gaming experiences, and "decent entertainment" doesn't cut it anymore.

I'm in the latter boat. I just beat Densetsu no Starfi 2 last night on the GBA, and although it's a well-made game, with tons of extras, it's just nothing more than good entertainment. So I'll probably sell it off sooner or later. It doesn't do anything above and beyond.

It bothers me, too. The endless barrage of words like "shit", "crap" "abomination" and so on used for games that are really just mediocre to good, but not AAA or even AA titles. I understand how it works, though. A majority praises the game and some individual feels the need to counteract the praise with words that he or she probably knows are too strong. It's a way of making people pay attention to your cause, really. Still it can be very tiring to argue with people like this if they don't downgrade their stance once a debate really takes off. When I say tiring I really should say pointless in most cases.

Well, see, it's like this:

back in the NES days, it was pretty much the only system in town, and we had like 3 good games a year. That left plenty of time to play all the mediocre to bad games, and maybe find a few surprising gems or so-bad-they-were-fun games.

Nowadays, every month usually brings at least a couple of excellent games. Who honestly has the time to waste on the dregs?

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Originally Posted by Mzo

Well, see, it's like this:

back in the NES days, it was pretty much the only system in town, and we had like 3 good games a year. That left plenty of time to play all the mediocre to bad games, and maybe find a few surprising gems or so-bad-they-were-fun games.

Nowadays, every month usually brings at least a couple of excellent games. Who honestly has the time to waste on the dregs?

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That's definitely not the view I have of the 8-bit era. I could hardly keep up with all the great stuff every year on the NES, not to mention all the great SMS and computer games.

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Nowadays, every month usually brings at least a couple of excellent games. Who honestly has the time to waste on the dregs?

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Jeremy.

*rimshot*

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Originally Posted by James

High expectations = greater potential for disappointment when the game fails. ... Katamari Damacy ... had failed, ... It's merely another boring game,

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You took the words right out of my mouth! :chick:

LOL@Bacon. Also, the NES era was full of great games, you just had to sift through the Acclaim shit to get to them. The same has held true for pretty much every generation since, with more and more companies being in the "avoid like the plague" league.

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Originally Posted by Mzo

I got Fable for free.

I thought it was Purgatory: the Game. Bland and boring character designs, bland and boring environments, a story I couldn't care less about, boring missions, easy and boring combat... it didn't really do anything WRONG, per se, but it didn't do anything interesting or particularly good, either. I'm not judging it harshly, and I never even listened to the hype.

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Hey, you just described FF:TA also!


There will always be games that get an unfair shake ... Zelda 2 on NES and Chrono Cross comes to mind ... expectation breeds contempt.

Normally its reserved for sequels ... or next generation titles of existing franchises ... thats what makes all the hate for Fable sort of wierd (But I guess since Peter Moly* was attached to the game, there was a sense of expectation)

Chrono Cross was the best RPG of the past 5 years.

Purgatory: the RPG

7 Bad Mistakes that Good Game Journalists Make

#2. The Preview Gloss

The Problem:
We all understand the "you scratch my back" nature of the videogame industry, and the unspoken practice of avoiding negative comments in a preview is accepted and acknowledged even by the most naive of readers. However, by glossing over clearly evident problems in previews, the magazines continually breach their readers' trust.

"Remember that first person shooter we called the Halo 2 killer? Well, now we're nuking it in our world exclusive review!"

Even secret negative code phrases such as "if everything comes together before release" don't go far enough to warn gamers about clear problems in pre-release games. This gloss continually blurs the supposedly bright line between the publications as journalistic endeavors and product marketing devices.

One example of how this issue could be better handled was in a recent PC Gamer. Its Ghost Recon 2 feature pointed out the high points of the upcoming game while bringing up serious and pointed questions about the direction of the Ghost Recon series. (Most notably, the perceived abandonment of its core realism-seeking audience.) The feature was sharp, analytical, and unyielding. It undoubtedly caused friction with the game maker, but it was also the best feature in a videogame magazine in the last six months.

Who Suffers:
The Readers:
Games often hit stores before reviews are printed in magazines, so previews are what gamers often use to pick what games they'll spend their hard earned money on. However, judging games by previews is like hooking up at last call. You go home at 2 with 10 and wake up at 10 with a 2.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy

LOL@Bacon. Also, the NES era was full of great games, you just had to sift through the Acclaim shit to get to them. The same has held true for pretty much every generation since, with more and more companies being in the "avoid like the plague" league.

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Akklaim released one of my favorite NES games ever: Wizards and Warriors.

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Originally Posted by MrWhitefolks

are you new?

http://www.pimp-productions.com/reviews/drake.php

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I don't go to pimp productions.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

I don't go to pimp productions.

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I don't think anybody does.

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Originally Posted by JefmcC

Akklaim released one of my favorite NES games ever: Wizards and Warriors.

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If it's your favourite, maybe you can tell me what the fuck I'm supposed to do in it. I think I got out of the forest stage maybe once. There was a key and a door or something.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

If it's your favourite, maybe you can tell me what the fuck I'm supposed to do in it. I think I got out of the forest stage maybe once. There was a key and a door or something.

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There's a door in one of the high brances of the tree, you go in there, fall down the tree, watch out for the bees and shit, fight a boss, and go to the next level.

It's been awhile since I played it, but man, if you're struggling that much I can hook up the NES just to give you exact directions :p

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

It's been awhile since I played it, but man, if you're struggling that much I can hook up the NES just to give you exact directions :p

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Nah that's cool. I rented it back when I owned the NES and remembered liking it a lot, so I bought it recently for like two bucks. I've played it about twice since then, I've been swamped with new releases.

I forgot how little direction some of the older games gave you. If I tried to play LoZ now, as a 6 year old, after playing current gen games, I'd probably bash my head into a wall, whereas back then I was drawing maps and writing notes and having a crapton of fun.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

If I tried to play LoZ now, as a 6 year old, after playing current gen games, I'd probably bash my head into a wall, whereas back then I was drawing maps and writing notes and having a crapton of fun.

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Even back then, it was hard for alot of people.

I remember reading in a book, that LoZ was one of the reasons Nintendo set up the help line in the first place back in the day, because even the "Game Counselors" were so stumped playing through it the first time, that the Japanese had to help them.

I mean, how would you EVER find the entrance to level 8 unless someone told you?

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

If it's your favourite, maybe you can tell me what the fuck I'm supposed to do in it. I think I got out of the forest stage maybe once. There was a key and a door or something.

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I second this utterance of contempt.


Wizards and Warriors reminded me alot of Deadly Towers (Borderbrund) ... a game I desperately wanted to be good ... but failed me.

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

I mean, how would you EVER find the entrance to level 8 unless someone told you?

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I don't know man, but we did. In fact we were almost done with the whole thing when her quasi-retarded little brother erased the game by removing it with the power on or something. That actually ended our friendship. Immediately.

That reminds me of all the backlash Sega received for including a strategy guide with Phantasy Star II. No one forced you to use the damn thing. I guess people enjoy paying extra for things.

I ts mostly just the fact that you were lied to by everyone. Fable was supposed to a revolution. It wasn't so it was attacked much to harshly. 2nd Best RPG this year ain't bad

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Originally Posted by Shapermc

7 Bad Mistakes that Good Game Journalists Make

#2. The Preview Gloss

The Problem:
We all understand the "you scratch my back" nature of the videogame industry, and the unspoken practice of avoiding negative comments in a preview is accepted and acknowledged even by the most naive of readers. However, by glossing over clearly evident problems in previews, the magazines continually breach their readers' trust.

"Remember that first person shooter we called the Halo 2 killer? Well, now we're nuking it in our world exclusive review!"

Even secret negative code phrases such as "if everything comes together before release" don't go far enough to warn gamers about clear problems in pre-release games. This gloss continually blurs the supposedly bright line between the publications as journalistic endeavors and product marketing devices.

One example of how this issue could be better handled was in a recent PC Gamer. Its Ghost Recon 2 feature pointed out the high points of the upcoming game while bringing up serious and pointed questions about the direction of the Ghost Recon series. (Most notably, the perceived abandonment of its core realism-seeking audience.) The feature was sharp, analytical, and unyielding. It undoubtedly caused friction with the game maker, but it was also the best feature in a videogame magazine in the last six months.

Who Suffers:
The Readers:
Games often hit stores before reviews are printed in magazines, so previews are what gamers often use to pick what games they'll spend their hard earned money on. However, judging games by previews is like hooking up at last call. You go home at 2 with 10 and wake up at 10 with a 2.

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Wrong.

Preview /= opinion, no matter how much these people wish it to be.

You buy your games based on a preview, or a review for that matter, you deserve every shitty game you get.

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Originally Posted by remnant

I ts mostly just the fact that you were lied to by everyone. Fable was supposed to a revolution. It wasn't so it was attacked much to harshly. 2nd Best RPG this year ain't bad

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Get out of my thread if you can't write coherent intelligent sentences with proper spelling.

I was a LoZ freak when it came out ... the only things I didn't discover until I read Nintendo Power months later, was the 'invisible pathways' in the main world .. and that final ring. We had to find everything else the hard way ...

It took me 30 days of hard playing to beat that game. Metroid only took 24 hours by comparison.


Walkthroughs/cheats/internet has really taken away alot of the magic in gaming.

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Originally Posted by toxic

Walkthroughs/cheats/internet has really taken away alot of the magic in gaming.

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Someone putting a gun to your head and forcing you to read them?

Don't blame the medium if you have 0 willpower.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Wrong.

Preview /= opinion, no matter how much these people wish it to be.

You buy your games based on a preview, or a review for that matter, you deserve every shitty game you get.

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When someone says, "This game will rock" that is like giving it the thumbs up and it is an opinion. Anyways, that article answered the original posters question as to why it happens. Just because we are not stupid to buy into the hype does not mean that the populous is as smart.

Problem number 1:

"This will rock" should not be used in a preview. Last sentence should read along the lines "if X, Y, and Z can be worked out, it will be a title to watch for".

Regardless, you buy any game based on a review or someone's opinion, you are a dipshit chickenhead.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Someone putting a gun to your head and forcing you to read them?

Don't blame the medium if you have 0 willpower.

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I don't read them. I used to, mainly for RPG's, but that's all over. Last guide I bought was for Ocarina of Time because I was stuck on the Water Temple, and I felt so shitty after looking it up I forswore them.

Thing is, all my friends read them, so you can't talk about it. Asking someone to come over and help you explore is a thing of the past, as 99% of people just look it up.

Wow you are one winey dude.

Yankees suck balls...but not for another few months

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Originally Posted by MVS

Someone putting a gun to your head and forcing you to read them?

Don't blame the medium if you have 0 willpower.

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Not so much willpower ... but more to do with patience and time. I don't have the endless amount of time I did when I was younger ... and the completionist whore inside of me, yearns to do it all ...

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Originally Posted by toxic

Walkthroughs/cheats/internet has really taken away alot of the magic in gaming.

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I don't think this is quite true. I would say that games are now alot more hand holding, I don't think I've played a game in recent years on the next gen systems that didn't tell me right where to go, what do, and how to do it.

Even when there are puzzles, most of them are so blatantly obvious.

Because there's ALWAYS been walkthroughs, ever since Super Mario Bros and Legend of Zelda, so that's nothing new.

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Originally Posted by toxic

Not so much willpower ... but more to do with patience and time. I don't have the endless amount of time I did when I was younger ... and the completionist whore inside of me, yearns to do it all ...

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This is how I feel too.

If I do get stuck, because I simply can't find a key, or something isn't working right, or I missed some obscure little detail i'll just turn to the internet, because I don't have hours to waste on one game looking for one minor thing.

But this usually only happens when I miss some key or something.

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

This is how I feel too.

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I third this sentiment.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Wow you are one winey dude.

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Whiney has an H in it. It's tricky because it's silent.

You're not doing any of it. Someone else is.

Having a list of available abilities and items in a SRPG is pretty invaluable, though. Following a guide for every battle in terms of strategy takes away the whole point of the game.

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Originally Posted by Mzo

Having a list of available abilities and items in a SRPG is pretty invaluable, though. Following a guide for every battle in terms of strategy takes away the whole point of the game.

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Yea, this is the only reason I buy them. I get them for the maps, the abilities, basacially all the optional stuff, but I don't think I've ever used it for battle help or anything like that. Plus with the Double Jump books, having all the confusing parts laid out in plain english with pictures is invaluable.

Only reason I got the San Andreas guide was for the maps, and those better be awesome.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

Try now.

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Gotcha.

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Originally Posted by MVS

Problem number 1:

"This will rock" should not be used in a preview. Last sentence should read along the lines "if X, Y, and Z can be worked out, it will be a title to watch for".

Regardless, you buy any game based on a review or someone's opinion, you are a dipshit chickenhead.

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Games like Halo and mario sold on peoples opinion. Just becuase someone said its good doesn't mean its bad or good. Not every one can rent games.

Their is nothing wrong with walkthroughs, becuase you don't have to read them.

I only have a problem with folks who JUST base their purchases on the opinions of others, and seem to lack the ability to make up their fucking minds as to what they like, as they depend on others to do it for them. Now if they could shorthand this and send me $50 to spend their money for them, I'd have no problem with it.

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Originally Posted by Jeremy

I only have a problem with folks who JUST base their purchases on the opinions of others, and seem to lack the ability to make up their fucking minds as to what they like, as they depend on others to do it for them. Now if they could shorthand this and send me $50 to spend their money for them, I'd have no problem with it.

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Aren't all decisions based on the opinions of others?

A ton of people read reviews, read other peoples previews, to get an opinion on the game. Very rarely does anyone just go out and drop 50 bucks on a game because of the back of the box, or rent it, and then decide to buy it, and it ends up costing them more in the long run due to the rental fee.

A lot of people make up their minds thanks to gaming mags. Hidden gems can sometimes be found their if you listen and think while you read. If it wasn't for Game Informer I would have never found the magic of veiwtuful Joe.

Walkthroughs don't take anything from games becuase you don't have to use them. I only used walkthroughs on 2 games and they were still fun as hell.

The games were Shemnue for the dreamcast (most underrate game of all time)

Legend of Zelda: Link to the Past( Best snes game in my opinion.)

Im gonna start stabbing people who bitch about how the "magic of gaming is lost because of blahblah".

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Originally Posted by Roufuss

Aren't all decisions based on the opinions of others?

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No, Jeremy('s mom) has enough money (from her bingo winnings) to purchase every game that looks even a little bit interesting to him.

Man, in going with this thread, sometimes cheap games are really shitty.

I've sold about 60% of those five dollar games I got at Circuit City, luckily I break even on almost all of them.

I have no time to waste with shitty games with all the good stuff out now.

I know now to NEVER EVER buy a 4.99 game again in my life, unless it's nothing short of fantastic.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Im gonna start stabbing people who bitch about how the "magic of gaming is lost because of blahblah".



No, Jeremy('s mom) has enough money (from her bingo winnings) to purchase every game that looks even a little bit interesting to him.

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Am sorry Bill Gates but if I bought every game that excited me i would be paying at least a 1000 every 6 months. Also some games don't interest me auntil i see the high score and then i give it a try. That went for VJ, Beyond good and Evil, Prince of Persia and Super Monkey ball

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Im gonna start stabbing people who bitch about how the "magic of gaming is lost because of blahblah".



No, Jeremy('s mom) has enough money (from her bingo winnings) to purchase every game that looks even a little bit interesting to him.

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The magic in your posts are gone too.