The official 2004-2005 TNL Hot Stove League

I'll start out with addressing my team, the New York Yankees. On the free agent front, we need to sign Troy Percival (to fill the Jeff Nelson role as a good, non-choking righty setup man), Eric Milton (horrible season this year but he's a homegrown Yankee that wants to come back home, has pitched big in the postseason before, and is left handed), David Wells (He's David Wells, of course he belongs on the Yankees), pick up John Lieber's option, and re-sign John Olerud and El-Duque. Derek Lowe showed me a lot this postseason, I wouldn't mind signing him. Obviously, Carlos Beltran.

For trades, the word is that Oakland GM Billy Beane loves Tom Gordon, the Phillies really want Kenny Lofton to hold down the fort in center field, and Kevin Brown would like to finish his career back home in Georgia. The Braves think they can turn him around, if the Yankees eat most of his salary. The Braves don't want to pay John Smoltz 12 million dollars plus incentives in 2005, so you eat most of Brown's contract and ship him to Atlanta for John Smoltz (he can set up Rivera or start again, whatever he wants). You send Tom Gordon and a minor prospect to Oakland for Barry Zito, and you send Kenny Lofton and a player like Miguel Cairo to Philly for Billy Wagner (Word is they want to move him, and he's unhappy there plus they don't want to pay him). Then, you trade Javier Vasquez to pitching-starved Texas, where he'll no doubt thrive, to get Alfonso Soriano back.

Now the 2005 linup is:

Jeter
Soriano
Arod
Sheffield
Beltran
Giambi
Matsui
Posada
Olerud

Bernie Williams as the 4th outfielder, part time DH/first baseman

The rotation could consist of:

Mussina
Zito
Lieber
Milton
Wells
Lowe
El Duque
Smoltz

In the bullpen you've got Troy Percival, John Smoltz, and Billy Wagner setting up Mariano Rivera. Best. Bullpen. Ever.

dude, you're in lala land. No one wants the Yankee's shitty players, and there is no way they're getting good players in return. Tom Gordon for Zito? You're nuts. Lofton and Cairo for Wager? NOBODY wants them, Lofton had nowhere to go until the Yankees signed him (because Steinbrenner is a moron), Cairo is a nobody. Keep living your Yankee dream team fantasies. Teams don't want your shitty players anymore, and you don't have any good ones left to trade. MLB won't stand for salary dumps anymore either, so you're screwed.

How can you be proud of a team that just targets the most expensive players? Seeing you talk about it like this proves to me you're nothing but a typical Yankee fan no matter how much of a "true baseball fan" you claim to be. Sure the Red Sox spend a lot of money, but at least they have an organizational philosophy and a sense of prudence. I'd like to see the Yankees target players that fit thier team, not just thier budget. Look at the Sox recent signings, Ortiz, Mueller, Bellhorn. Under rated players ready to blossom, not declining and overpaid like most of the people you mentioned. It's time for a change in Yankee philosophy.

Ill post my advice for the Mets as soon as I get some time to look at the roster and free agency list for next year. But they need a lot of work.

But seriously, Kevin Brown for Jon Smoltz? After the year Brown had? Youre crazy. Nobody with half a brain would want that douche. Smoltz is still a good player, and the Braves are still winners.

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It's time for a change in Yankee philosophy.

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They need a MoneyBall guy.

You're not even hours removed from the first Red Sox championship since 1918 and you have to go around attacking Yankee fans? You're acting like the typical Boston fan, a sore loser and a sore winner and always on the attack. You win one championship (against an awful team in the Cardinals) and your team is automatically the model of how to build a franchise?

How can I be proud of a team that just targets the most expensive players? Well, first of all, last I checked Manny Ramirez was just awarded the World Series MVP. The guy you gave 180 million dollars for 8 years as a free agent, then put on wavers before this season? Your team's "organizational philosophy" led to a bullpen by commitee in 2003, how'd that turn out? You panicked and got Byung Kim, who you're now overpaying and trying to trade to Japan. Then, last offseason you fixed the problem by overpaying Keith Foulke to nab him from Oakl. Talk about the pot and the fucking kettle. Your team has NO homegrown stars on it whatsoever, how can you even begin to attack the Yankees for signing free agents? MLB won't stand for salary dumps anymore, what was that awful trade you made to get Schilling then? Arizona had to get his salary off the books and the only two teams willing to take and pay him were the Red Sox and Yankees. Jerry Colangelo hates the Yankees and took Brandon Lyons, Casey Fossum and some other scrub for Schilling over Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano.

I'm the first to agree, the Yankees can't be a dynasty again by signing over the hill ex-stars with high price tags anymore. But you give your organization way too much credit. David Ortiz was cut from the Minnesota Twins and the Red Sox themselves were trying to deal him last year before he suddenly turned into an offensive monster. Up until a week ago everyone in Boston wanted Bellhorn the fuck out of town. Of course the Yankees should target players that fit their team, I've been bitching for a year now about Kevin Brown, Kenny Lofton, etc. But the Yankees also made smart moves, like John Olerud and John Lieber.

The Red Sox want Beltran desperately, they wanted Arod desperately, and they're going to target most of the same free agents the Yankees are. A Red Sox fan looks really silly attacking the Yankees for their spending. You won your first title in 86 years and you still can't get the Yankees out of your head?

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

They need a MoneyBall guy.

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The Jays have an extra one lying around, if anyone's interested.

In the offseason, the Blue Jays need to:

Resign Delgado
Sign a closer
Sign a reliever
Sign a DH
Sign Jesus

Not necessarily in that order.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

They need a MoneyBall guy.

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Cashman is actually one of the earlier members of the sabermetrics brood, not as prolific as Beane, but up there. Most of the moronic decisions come from Streinbrenner's impulses.

The Yankees need to shoot Mel Stottlemyre. He fucked up Vasquez and Weaver. Lilly went from a mediocre pitcher to a damn good pitcher in Oakland and Toronto. Clemens went from unstoppable in Toronto to merely pretty good in New York and back to unstoppable in Houston. This is also the guy who also pretty muched ruined Dwight Gooden's Mets career too. What a track record.

What is a 'Hot Stove League'?

Never heard of that one before.

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Originally Posted by MVS

What is a 'Hot Stove League'?

Never heard of that one before.

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Off-season bitching pertaining to baseball, since the offseason only occurs in winter for baseball.

Makes sense.

Hockey Night in Canada originated it back in the 50s for their second period intermission, they'd get a bunch of reporters together and talk about stuff going on. It died off but was reborn recently with the advent of satellite technology, and is once again occupying the second period of HNIC. Or it would be if there was any games on.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Ill post my advice for the Mets as soon as I get some time to look at the roster and free agency list for next year. But they need a lot of work.

But seriously, Kevin Brown for Jon Smoltz? After the year Brown had? Youre crazy. Nobody with half a brain would want that douche. Smoltz is still a good player, and the Braves are still winners.

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Everything I've proposed has already been reported by several different sources, If I was just going by what I WANTED to see happen I could do a lot better. Here's an article that addresses the Kevin Brown-John Smoltz thing:

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/ba...p-210447c.html

The new Braves ownership is cheap, and Smoltz makes 12 million in 2005. Plus incentives of 100 grand per start if he becomes a starter again, which he really wants to do. That could mean up to 15 million in 2005. 3 of their starting pitchers are hitting free agency.

As for the Yankees getting a Moneyball guy, NOOOOOO. Billy Beane can't field a team that can win a single playoff series and Theo Epstein only won in Boston when he started evolving and moving away from the more stupid tenets of the moneyball philosophy. He tried the bullpen by commitee (anyone can close, according to the Bill James school of thought), it blew up in his face and he learned from the mistake. He signed a money closer in Keith Foulke and it was as major a factor as there was in their championship. He moved away from the beer league softball team mentality of Billy Beane and built a team around pitching and defense.

My worst nightmare would be a guy like Billy Beane running the Yankees.

Sigh, I want hockey. The Wild have sold out every game they have ever played, and that would have continued this season, but thanks to the losers of the leauge they had to ruin it for me! YARG, I WANT HOCKEY!

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Originally Posted by Tigana

Cashman is actually one of the earlier members of the sabermetrics brood, not as prolific as Beane, but up there. Most of the moronic decisions come from Streinbrenner's impulses.

The Yankees need to shoot Mel Stottlemyre. He fucked up Vasquez and Weaver. Lilly went from a mediocre pitcher to a damn good pitcher in Oakland and Toronto. Clemens went from unstoppable in Toronto to merely pretty good in New York and back to unstoppable in Houston. This is also the guy who also pretty muched ruined Dwight Gooden's Mets career too. What a track record.

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I'm not saying sabermetrics don't have an important place, but the Moneyball approach takes it a step further and completely ignores the human element of sports. That's how you have disasters like Arthur Rhodes as your closer. You're completely correct in that most of the Yankee's dumb moves were all Steinbrenner. I think he's going to back off after this year's results.

I've always loved Stottlemyre, and defended him against those that would say he's a bad pitching coach. Since the dynasty team, however, he's really given me nothing to praise him about. That said, you're not being fair with all of those knocks. Weaver is a headcase and will never pitch a big game in his life, that's not Mel's fault. Lilly was very underrated as a Yankee, he was very good. He was only traded because Steinbrenner lost his fucking mind after the Mets beat him in a game. Clemens was more than just pretty good with the Yankees, he pitched some huge games and won a Cy Young award. Take his success in Houston with a grain of salt; he moved to a fastball league where the hitters had never seen him, and the more they saw him the worse his numbers got. He also, like when he went to Toronto, was out to prove that he wasn't finished. Mel didn't ruin Doc's career, Davey Johnson did by overpitching him. Mel saved Doc's career by completely reinventing his mechanics in 1996, which led to Doc pitching a no hitter.

That said, Mel seems tired. I wouldn't mind seeing him retire, and replacing him with a young top notch coach like Neil Allen from AAA.

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Originally Posted by Error

Hockey Night in Canada originated it back in the 50s for their second period intermission, they'd get a bunch of reporters together and talk about stuff going on. It died off but was reborn recently with the advent of satellite technology, and is once again occupying the second period of HNIC. Or it would be if there was any games on.

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Actually, the term's origins can be traced back to baseball writers in the early 1900's, when people would actually huddle around the stove for heat and talk baseball.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

The Jays have an extra one lying around, if anyone's interested.

In the offseason, the Blue Jays need to:

Resign Delgado
Sign a closer
Sign a reliever
Sign a DH
Sign Jesus

Not necessarily in that order.

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I think JP Richardi's actually pretty good, he's making a lot of nice moves with young players in the farm system. The team was ravaged by injuries this year, I think when healthy they're much better than they showed in 2004. The Blue Jays should only keep Delgado if he'll sign cheaply (which I think he will, he doesn't have much of a market). I agree, they need back of the bullpen help and a big thumper in that lineup. I've heard rumors that the Jays are hot for J.D. Drew, who just put up a career year in his walk year. I've also heard that they're the dark horse that could come in and snag Jason Varitek.

I want to know where the Yankees are going to get the money to sign the $60 miillion in players you want, since, as you say they merely broke even this year and already have $170 million commited for next season. They can't clear money by trading players like Brown or Giambi, because no team will take them unless the Yankees pay them 90% of the contract anyway. The "breaking even" this year bit is bullshit, the Yankees benefit from thier market far more than anyone else and are making shit loads of money even with thier payroll. All baseball teams cook the books.

I also think you're way off in your assessment of what the Red Sox will be doing this offseason. They're talking to Beltran, but there is no serious initiative to sign him. He's too much money, we already have Jesus in center, and we have a bunch of our own free agents to resign first. I've never heard anything about the Sox ever attempting to trade Ortiz, and i believe you pulled that out of your ass. Ortiz was always a good hitter in Minnesota and Boston, once he got the opportunity to play every day he turned into one of the league's premier hitters and the Sox extended him immediatly. The Sox were trying to trade Jeremy Giambi, maybe that's what you're thinking of. Bellhorn has done well all season and the fans love him, only the idiot fans who don't understand his game don't. Before the post season he was one player analysts were targeting to step up his game, Gammons was really high on him, he just hit a rough patch. I suggest you stop getting your Red Sox information from the NY newspapers, or any team from any newspapers for that matter. They just make shit up.

You don't understand Moneyball, stop trying to pretend you do.

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You're completely correct in that most of the Yankee's dumb moves were all Steinbrenner. I think he's going to back off after this year's results.

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I've been hearing that from Yankees fans and New York media since the 2001 World Series. You know as well as I do that Steinbrenner isn't gonna back off until he sells the team or dies. And he's not gonna sell the team.

"What moves does your team need to make?"

Cross the their fingers and hope that the farm system treats them well. The Mariners have been loaded the last several years, but they're starting to slip.

Yet again! It's fact check time!!!!!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

You win one championship (against an awful team in the Cardinals) and your team is automatically the model of how to build a franchise?

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105 wins is an awful team? Not to mention we still had to go through the Angels and the Yankees to get there, are all of those teams awful?

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

How can I be proud of a team that just targets the most expensive players? Well, first of all, last I checked Manny Ramirez was just awarded the World Series MVP. The guy you gave 180 million dollars for 8 years as a free agent, then put on wavers before this season?

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You know, our last GM lost his job for a reason, Manny's signing has nothing to do with the current organization, it has to do with the Yankees swiping Mike Mussina, and our past ownership freaking the fuck out and overpaying Manny.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

You panicked and got Byung Kim, who you're now overpaying and trying to trade to Japan.

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Is there anyone in the free world that wouldnt trade Shea Hillenbrand for BK Kim? I dont understand your logic. Japan is going to pay most of the remainder of what we owe him (which isnt too much)

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Then, last offseason you fixed the problem by overpaying Keith Foulke to nab him from Oakl. Talk about the pot and the fucking kettle.

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Foulke has proven himself to be as reliable as almost any other closer in baseball, I'd put him right below Gagne and Rivera. Mariano Rivera makes almost 11 million dollars a year, we're paying Foulke 3.5 million dollars, which closer is overpaid?

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Your team has NO homegrown stars on it whatsoever, how can you even begin to attack the Yankees for signing free agents?

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Cough... Trot Nixon.. Cough.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

MLB won't stand for salary dumps anymore, what was that awful trade you made to get Schilling then? Arizona had to get his salary off the books and the only two teams willing to take and pay him were the Red Sox and Yankees. Jerry Colangelo hates the Yankees and took Brandon Lyons, Casey Fossum and some other scrub for Schilling over Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano.

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I'm sorry if some teams need pitching, obviously the Yankees dont need a lefty starter.... and I can see how a team might want Nick Johnson when they had just signed Richie FUCKING Sexon to play first.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

David Ortiz was cut from the Minnesota Twins and the Red Sox themselves were trying to deal him last year before he suddenly turned into an offensive monster.

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I call bullshit, I dont think the Red Sox EVER tried to deal Ortiz.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

The Red Sox want Beltran desperately, they wanted Arod desperately, and they're going to target most of the same free agents the Yankees are. A Red Sox fan looks really silly attacking the Yankees for their spending. You won your first title in 86 years and you still can't get the Yankees out of your head?

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:D

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

I've always loved Stottlemyre, and defended him against those that would say he's a bad pitching coach. Since the dynasty team, however, he's really given me nothing to praise him about. That said, you're not being fair with all of those knocks. Weaver is a headcase and will never pitch a big game in his life, that's not Mel's fault. Lilly was very underrated as a Yankee, he was very good. He was only traded because Steinbrenner lost his fucking mind after the Mets beat him in a game. Clemens was more than just pretty good with the Yankees, he pitched some huge games and won a Cy Young award. Take his success in Houston with a grain of salt; he moved to a fastball league where the hitters had never seen him, and the more they saw him the worse his numbers got. He also, like when he went to Toronto, was out to prove that he wasn't finished. Mel didn't ruin Doc's career, Davey Johnson did by overpitching him. Mel saved Doc's career by completely reinventing his mechanics in 1996, which led to Doc pitching a no hitter.

That said, Mel seems tired. I wouldn't mind seeing him retire, and replacing him with a young top notch coach like Neil Allen from AAA.

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Gooden: Mel altered his pitching style, he tried to turn him from a strikeout pitcher into a groundout pitcher after 1986, it failed miserable and Gooden has railed out at him in public for it.

Ted Lilly: Was decent in his rookie year, then he was traded to the A's. Where they found a flaw in his pitching mechanics and fixed them. Performed better then went to the Blue Jay's and became an all star.

Javier Vasquez: Is perfectly healthy, they checked after this year post-season. His mechanics are all messed up.

Jeff Weaver: After pitching decent in Detroit, then playing miserably in New York, had a mini-renaissance in Los Angeles. He has blasted Torre and Mel for not fixing his mechanics problems that Tracy and his ilk has.

Roger Clemens: His Cy numbers in Toronto were insane, miniscule era and WHIP. His CY Young season was more due to him having a 21-win season due to insane run support then him pitching great. Then as an old man in his forties went to a bandbox, and pitched his lights out.

Don't you think its telling when have a Yankees pitcher has a slight problem in his mechanics that they go to Billy Connors in Tampa?

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

I've been hearing that from Yankees fans and New York media since the 2001 World Series. You know as well as I do that Steinbrenner isn't gonna back off until he sells the team or dies. And he's not gonna sell the team.

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Make no mistake this Yankees team would cream the late 90's dynasty. It's just during those years the competition was marginal at best. Just compare the rosters of the current Red Sox say with the 98 Red Sox, to see how much the other good teams in the league have improved.

The Mets need to do the signing of Jesus thing.

Really, just scrap 'em all and move on.

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

Yet again! It's fact check time!!!!!!!!!!



105 wins is an awful team? Not to mention we still had to go through the Angels and the Yankees to get there, are all of those teams awful?

You know, our last GM lost his job for a reason, Manny's signing has nothing to do with the current organization, it has to do with the Yankees swiping Mike Mussina, and our past ownership freaking the fuck out and overpaying Manny.

Is there anyone in the free world that wouldnt trade Shea Hillenbrand for BK Kim? I dont understand your logic. Japan is going to pay most of the remainder of what we owe him (which isnt too much)
Foulke has proven himself to be as reliable as almost any other closer in baseball, I'd put him right below Gagne and Rivera. Mariano Rivera makes almost 11 million dollars a year, we're paying Foulke 3.5 million dollars, which closer is overpaid?Cough... Trot Nixon.. Cough.


I'm sorry if some teams need pitching, obviously the Yankees dont need a lefty starter.... and I can see how a team might want Nick Johnson when they had just signed Richie FUCKING Sexon to play first.
I call bullshit, I dont think the Red Sox EVER tried to deal Ortiz.

:D

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Yeah Spo is making shit up. The sox never tried to deal Ortiz. Our farm system IS in way better shape than the Yankee's, but wouldn't be if Dan Douchebag was still our GM (Nixon and Youk this year, Shoppach will be invaluable down the road). Christ man, the sox are in a damn good position if you ask me, especially since the Nomar trade didn't backfire.

Where are you getting this shit anyway?

P.S. Dave just won.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Everything I've proposed has already been reported by several different sources, If I was just going by what I WANTED to see happen I could do a lot better. Here's an article that addresses the Kevin Brown-John Smoltz thing:

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Yeah, the Daily News is a realistic, unbiased source. You've basically created a ludicrous wish list of every good available player. I mean, I want a Z4 for Christmas but that doesn't mean it's gonna happen.

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He tried the bullpen by commitee (anyone can close, according to the Bill James school of thought), it blew up in his face and he learned from the mistake.

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When did this happen? Boston lost the ALCS because a starting pitcher stayed in too long and because a knuckleballer threw a bad pitch. The Boston bullpen was fantastic last October.

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My worst nightmare would be a guy like Billy Beane running the Yankees.

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I would think it would be George Steinbrenner. The foundation for the last Yankee dynasty was built when he was banned from baseball. George already tried to plug the holes in a fading dynasty in '81 and we all remember how that worked out.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Mel didn't ruin Doc's career, Davey Johnson did by overpitching him.

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I'd say Doc ruined his own career by becoming a cokehead.

I dont want Beltran this offseason, I hope he goes to the Yankees and they can have their team full of overpaid primadonnas, if Pedro walks then the Sox must sign Pavano. I think we should (and will) give Cabrera a one year deal,and give Varitek a four-year deal. If they do end up signing Pedro (doubtful in my mind) they cant justify giving him anything longer than a two year contract with an option.

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Originally Posted by Tigana

Make no mistake this Yankees team would cream the late 90's dynasty.

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The hell it would. This Yankees team has no arms.

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Originally Posted by Mike

The Mets need to do the signing of Jesus thing.

Really, just scrap 'em all and move on.

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The Mets are beyond help. They gambled their future on the Kazmir trade and lost.

Pedro at 3 yrs/$39 mil (maybe even 3 yrs/$42) is a good deal compared to what we would be getting with Pavano. I'll take Pedro and his 106 pitches for three years over an unknown quantity with one good year, like Pavano.

Lowe if you can get him for $9 mil is a good deal. Lowe's an incredible talent with massive confidence problems - winning the ALDS, ALCS, and World Series is the sort of thing that can 'fix' those problems for someone. With the boost he got this year, I would say there's a 50/50 chance Lowe strings together multiple all-star seasons starting in 2005.

Where else are you going to go for pitching? Take a shot at Pavano? Might work. Radke? For the cost, he's not worth it.

We need Varitek, and Boras will have us over a barrel because of it. I wonder whether we play hardball with Varitek, and take the risk of letting him go - do we really want to pay Vtek $10 million a year, with Shoppach in the wings?

With our prospects and cheap talent, we could make a run at Zito - we could sure offer Oakland something better than Tom Gordon and a minor prospect (hah) - that's why there's no way the Yanks get Zito. Some combination of Youk with someone else would be enough.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

In the offseason, the Blue Jays need to:

Sign Jesus

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Originally Posted by stormy

we already have Jesus in center

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Doh.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

I think JP Richardi's actually pretty good, he's making a lot of nice moves with young players in the farm system.

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Maybe. None of them are going to be in the majors for another 2 years, so who knows? But Riccardi recently came out and said that the team could "maybe compete for a wildcard in the next 4-5 years." I am in awe of the power of moneyball.

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The team was ravaged by injuries this year, I think when healthy they're much better than they showed in 2004.

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Maybe, but even the healthy guys sucked this year. They totally cheaped out on the new manager, too.

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I've heard rumors that the Jays are hot for J.D. Drew, who just put up a career year in his walk year. I've also heard that they're the dark horse that could come in and snag Jason Varitek.

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I think it's far more likely they're a dark horse in the Einar Diaz sweepstakes.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

The Mariners have been loaded the last several years, but they're starting to slip.

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They were the third worst team in the majors; they even finished behind the Expos. How much worse do you expect things to get?

I'm talking about their farm system. I'm saying that without picking up established players, they may not go anywhere.

Bernie Williams = $12 million worth of a utility outfielder with no range.

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Originally Posted by Stone

Bernie Williams = $12 million worth of a utility outfielder with no range.

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Who, along with Derek Jeter, is the heart and soul of that team and will be considered one of the Yankee greats.

Well.. as Burgandy mentioned previously the Mets need major help. They need a REAL first baseman. No more Piazza at first and I'm sure Jason Phillips is gone from the team as he was absolutely brutal.

They need to resign Benson already. Hidalgo while very good defensively is too streaky and I would like to see a younger guy like Victor Diaz have a chance to be the right fielder next season.

Trade Cliff Floyd to an AL team. I like Cliff and he gives it his all but he is too injury prone. He can still hit very well and would be ideal as a DH. I don't know whats available but they gotta get younger or at least sign someone in their prime (NOT Magglio and his busted knee please).

I pray Jose Reyes stays injury free as he is playing in the dominican for winter ball. I hope Kaz Matsui is halfway decent at 2nd (I think he'll be much better at 2nd) and David Wright looks great so far.

As for the new manager I really hope its not Willie Randolph. I don't want a Yankee as the new manager. Thats the last thing Mets fans want to see especially since Willie mentioned he wanted Don Zimmer as his bench coach. Can you imagine that??? Randolph and Zimmer in the Mets dugout..ugh.

Wally Backman decided to not pursue the Mets managerial job and the only reason why the Mets asked him to come for an interview was because fans wanted him to be manager.

in short: Mets need first baseman, an outfielder with a good bat, resign Kris Benson, send me his wife, a starting pitcher, some relief pitching (as Stanton, Franco, Bottalico..etc are gonna be outta here), a new manager (non yankee please unless its Joe Girardi..him I'll accept)...and.. aw geez..just overhaul the damn thing. :yuck:

*** Its nice to know that the Mets captain (John fucking Franco) was "chummy" with the mafia. Here's the article:

Franco and the mob
http://img25.exs.cx/img25/7171/franco3.jpg

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Billy Beane can't field a team that can win a single playoff series

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Billy Beane's had to work with either the lowest or second lowest payroll in baseball every year since he took over the GM job in Oakland. The fact that he fields a team that made the playoffs four times is fucking amazing in and of itself. Give him the Yankees payroll to work with and the As would win the Series every year.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

I think he's going to back off after this year's results.

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I thought Yankees fans were saying he was going to back off after they got their asses kicked by the Marlins last year.

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Originally Posted by raystorm

in short: Mets need first baseman, an outfielder with a good bat, resign Kris Benson, send me his wife, a starting pitcher, some relief pitching (as Stanton, Franco, Bottalico..etc are gonna be outta here), a new manager (non yankee please unless its Joe Girardi..him I'll accept)...and.. aw geez..just overhaul the damn thing. :yuck:

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You can have Benson's wife. Those titties are sloppy.

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Originally Posted by Mike

You can have Benson's wife. Those titties are sloppy.

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You're insane.

Sloppy.

EDIT: Oh, and Spo...

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Originally Posted by Stone

Where else are you going to go for pitching? Take a shot at Pavano? Might work. Radke? For the cost, he's not worth it.

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How come no one ever talks about Clement? I'm almost certain he's a free agent this year. Give me the power arm over someone like Pavano any day.

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With our prospects and cheap talent, we could make a run at Zito - we could sure offer Oakland something better than Tom Gordon and a minor prospect (hah) - that's why there's no way the Yanks get Zito. Some combination of Youk with someone else would be enough.

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I don't want Zito, let the Yankees overpay for him. He's nothing but a 3rd/4th starter these days. The Sox have to keep Youk, or if they trade him get more than a 1 year rent a player.

Well the Twins need a new owner, but thats not going to happen anytime soon. I hate having Uncle Scrooge for an owner.

http://archives.cnn.com/2002/BUSINES...biz/pohlad.jpg

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

The Jays have an extra one lying around, if anyone's interested.

In the offseason, the Blue Jays need to:

Resign Delgado
Sign a closer
Sign a reliever
Sign a DH
Sign Jesus

Not necessarily in that order.

---

Well put.

Gil Patterson (the pitching coach) is gone, so maybe, when we get good pitchers, they'll fucking pitch well.

Astros need to shore up the infield big time. Kent, Ensberg, and Viscaiano need to go. They're not productive and Kent is long past his "MVP" status. Keep Biggio and return him to second. Biggio > Kent, at bat and at second base, cheaper too. We need a strong defence, too often do we let runners on with poor fielding.

Carlos Beltran. Please fucking stay. I don't want to see him as a Yankee or as a Red Sock (what of Manny anyway? Or Sheff?) If 16 Million, prospected offer from the Astros, doesn't keep him then I don't know what to say. Sucks that you Yankees and Red Sox fans have teams that can strong arm damn near any player away from other viable teams.

I'm not exactly a Brad Ausmus fan, but he's a keeper for now.

What the Astros need most is a shot in the bullpen arm. It seems 99.99% of all the talent available to the Astro Bullpen goes by the name of Brad Lidge. Wheeler constitutes another 5% while Quals, Gallow, Micelli, and Springer acually subract from the total. Oswalt stays, Clemens gives it one more year, Miller and Pettite get healthy and we pay Brandon Backe (as well as Lidge) what they deserve. A Mint. Wheeler is good for middle relief, but we're in sore need of at least 3 more (at worst, we could keep Springer in there). One more closer would be nice too. Is it too late to get Billy Wagner back? I don't know who is a free agent in this field, perhaps taking a long look at the farm will help.

McLane needs to get really agressive this coming season. Really agressive. Like spending as much as at least the Cardinals this time. As the Mets even. They came close, even with injuries and old players. They can go all the way with Beltran around all year, Pettitte and Miller healthy, some good relief, a solid new starter in Backe and a stronger in-field. I'm currently looking at what third basemen and shortstops there are available. The priorities are:
1: Keep Beltran
2: Fix Bullpen
3: Out with Kent, back In with Biggio
4: Replace Ens and Vis with respectable 3rd and Short ball players, preferably with bats since we're going to see alot of the Cards, Cubbies, Dodgers and Giants.
5: Make no other changes, except move Miller to the Bullpen if he's not ever going to be 100% again. A fraction of Wade Miller is better than Quals, Micelli and Gallow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stormy

How come no one ever talks about Clement? I'm almost certain he's a free agent this year. Give me the power arm over someone like Pavano any day.

---

You can have Clement. You can have Pavano. Both will be free agent mistakes if you give them big long term contracts. Don't overpay, whatever you do.

Cubs may have their closer in Ryan Dempster, but otherwise I'd expect to see a mid-level interest in a guy like Troy Percival dependent upon his asking price. What the Cubs do for closer is going to have a domino effect on the rest of the bullpen. That bullpen gets a lot stronger with Hawkins in going in the 8th instead of the 9th.

At short, I'd consider resigning Nomar to a one-year deal to see if the guy can actually play a full season, but I wouldn't let it prevent me from going after Edgar Renteria. Cubs could use a lead-off guy and, though Renteria's been more of a middle of the lineup guy lately, he still has more lead-off credentials than any other Cub. Otherwise, they'll have to find a way to get your lead-off hitter at 2B if they don't resign Todd Walker. I'd like to see them give Walker a full season's AB's, though. Jeff Kent at 2B also remains a possiblity if he doesn't resign for cheap in Houston.

I think Carlos Beltran will end up on the North Side. He is clearly Jim Hendry's #1 free agent objective and seems to prefer Chicago if he can't resign in Houston. Boras and Hendry have a great working relationship and mutual respect for each other, so that could help. Word is that Boras will use the Yankees as a bargaining chip, but that Beltran will eventually end up in Chicago. It would be a major coup for the Cubs to get him and plug him in right, regardless if Sosa stays or goes. You're saving $11 million from not resigning Alou, another $9 from letting Clement go. $17 million per will be tough, but Beltran is going to want Vlad Guerrero money and it's hard to argue against him. Beltran would provide another lefty in the lineup, which theoretically could provide a lethal R-L-R-L top of the order that would just massacre bullpens in late innings.

Sosa's probably looking 60-40 at returning right now because the only teams fucking stupid enough to take him off the Cubs hands both reside in New York. Even if the Cubs have to take back a Kevin Brown or a Cliff Floyd, it'd be worth it. I'm glad the earlier rumored trade of Sosa to Texas for Chan Ho and Soriano seems to have died down. Sosa needs to go the way of his boombox.

Not sure what the Cubs will do with the #5 spot in the rotation with Clement gone. Dempster will get a look at the #5 as will top prospect Angel Guzman. Whatever the case, I like a front four or Prior, Wood, Zambrano, and Maddux going into the season. Let's get a healthy season out of these four and see what happens.

Cubs are going to spend this winter, and spend big. We'll all see how deep the Tribune's pockets can go. We'll probably need to up the payroll to Boston's numbers.

Looks like the Rockies are trying to dump as much contracts as possible and go through some sort of a young movement. Not sure if Todd Helton is happy about this... if he's not there is a big spot for him over at Shea Stadium. C'mon Mets!!! Get Helton!! The Mets need a REAL first baseman, the Piazza experiment was embarrasing and Jason Phillips is most likely gone (he was AWFUL). I don't think Eric Valent is a full timer and I doubt the Mets will bother with Craig Brazell though I hope he gets a real shot.

Rockies dumping salary... Helton next??

oh.. and NO SAMMY SOSA DAMMIT!! I don't wanna see that bum at Shea!! He was one big reason why the Cubbies choked in the end. In fact..during that series the Cubs had with the Mets at the end of the season the Mets pitchers made Sosa look like a chump (then again Sosa was probably like that against other teams at the time).

It's crazy how quickly and how far Sosa's stock has dropped.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stone

It's crazy how quickly and how far Sosa's stock has dropped.

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He's over the hill and he's actually bitching and moaning NOW about being put sixth in the lineup.

Here's the article. Yea..I really want this bum on my team.

Sosa the Whiner... Sixth in the linup?? WHAAAAA

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

Billy Beane's had to work with either the lowest or second lowest payroll in baseball every year since he took over the GM job in Oakland. The fact that he fields a team that made the playoffs four times is fucking amazing in and of itself. Give him the Yankees payroll to work with and the As would win the Series every year.

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The same thing was said about Glen Sather when he was with the Oilers. Always fielded competitive teams, made the playoffs when they had no business to. Then he went to the Rangers and made exactly the same mistakes that all the previous New York GMs had made, trying to buy a good team. But now that he has dumped all his overpriced stars and stockpiled some young talent he's going to get it right. At least he will if he survives the year. (assuming there is a year)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SI

If the Twins can't reach agreement with free-agent starting pitcher Brad Radke, Jon Lieber is available because the Yankees have declined their $8 million option on him for next year. The Yankees have earmarked that money for Milton.

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LOL.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by burgundy

LOL.

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I hate you, George.

That's why I say the dynasty is over.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by burgundy

LOL.

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The Yankees haven't declined Lieber's option.

Gerry Hunsicker, GM of the Houston Astros, has resigned. We'll see what happens.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

Yet again! It's fact check time!!!!!!!!!!

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K, time to once again defend myself. Your "fact check" is bullshit, do you follow the Red Sox very closely?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

105 wins is an awful team? Not to mention we still had to go through the Angels and the Yankees to get there, are all of those teams awful?

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Yes, the Cardinals are a 105 win awful team (by postseason standards, which is what we go by in the postseason. Their starting pitching is AWFUL. Worst World Series pitching rotation I've EVER seen. The Red Sox made FOUR errors in back to back games (A WS record) and were downing Jack Daniels before the games and STILL fucked them up the asses. As for the Yankees and Angels, I've given the Red Sox tons of credit for those wins and I gave them credit for the World Series. You're being way too sensitive, my only point was that the Cardinals laid down and died in the World Series. You play who you play and that doesn't make the Red Sox win any less of a win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

You know, our last GM lost his job for a reason, Manny's signing has nothing to do with the current organization, it has to do with the Yankees swiping Mike Mussina, and our past ownership freaking the fuck out and overpaying Manny.

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What's your point? The Red Sox offered Jose Contreras just as much as the Yankees did, went after Arod, etc. Face it, your team is a big market team just like the Yankees. Big market teams sign players to big contracts. You don't pay big money? Here's an article for you:
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/200...redsox.future/

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

Is there anyone in the free world that wouldnt trade Shea Hillenbrand for BK Kim? I dont understand your logic. Japan is going to pay most of the remainder of what we owe him (which isnt too much)
Foulke has proven himself to be as reliable as almost any other closer in baseball, I'd put him right below Gagne and Rivera. Mariano Rivera makes almost 11 million dollars a year, we're paying Foulke 3.5 million dollars, which closer is overpaid?Cough... Trot Nixon.. Cough.

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Yeah, Kim is overpaid and worthless plus has a history of choking against the team that you always meet in the ALCS. Hillenbrand isn't great but he's more valuable than Kim. Your numbers are fucked, Foulke makes 3.5 million dollars??? He makes closer to 8 million dollars a year, you completely overpaid to get him away from Oakland. He proved his worth this postseason, but all you seem to care about is money. If you're contending that it was more reasonable to give Keith Foulke 8 million in fall 2003 than Mariano Rivera 10 million, you haven't watched Rivera pitch for the past 9 years. If you want to consider Trot Nixon a "star" that's stretching it. He's pretty good when he's healthy but come on dude, you want to compare Trot Nixon to guys like Derek Jeter and Mariano Rivera?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

I'm sorry if some teams need pitching, obviously the Yankees dont need a lefty starter.... and I can see how a team might want Nick Johnson when they had just signed Richie FUCKING Sexon to play first.
I call bullshit, I dont think the Red Sox EVER tried to deal Ortiz.

---

Again, where do you get your facts from dude? Quoted from Peter Gammons' November 23rd, 2003 ESPN.com article "Diamondbacks GM Joe Garagiola has been talking to the Phillies, Yankees and Red Sox all week about Schilling, who can block any deal. The sense is that since Jerry Colangelo said he wanted and expected Soriano and Nick Johnson in a Schilling deal, Steinbrenner's thirst for the man who helped beat the Yankees in Game 7, 2001 abated". Then they went and got Richie FUCKING Sexon in an awful trade with the Brewers. All you people that think Ortiz has always been this monster hitter for years are revealing yourselves to be bandwagoners. The Twins RELEASED him rather than pay him 900K because nobody thought he'd become anything special, never hitting more than 20 homers in the Metrodome or driving in more than 75 RBI. The Red Sox went into 2003 with JEREMY GIAMBI as the everyday first baseman over David Ortiz, and were looking to unload him. Ortiz had a monster second half of 2003 and has grown better and better ever since. Steinbrenner wanted to pick up Ortiz from the Twins but Cashman passed on him, because they had Johnson and Giambi plus nobody in baseball thought the guy was anything (besides Steinbrenner, oddly enough). The Red Sox went into 2003 with a bullpen by commitee system that blew up in their faces, which is why they traded for Kim in the first place. My God, how long have you been a Red Sox fan? I call bullshit on all of you that question my facts. I know my baseball, some of you don't (embarassingly so).

As for the trade rumors I've mentioned, of course I'm going to get excited about a great possible trade I see in the paper. It's a RUMOR, how do you suggest someone back up a rumor with fact?

why do you think you know so much about baseball when you're obviosly an idiot?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stormy

why do you think you know so much about baseball when you're obviosly an idiot?

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You challenge my facts, I prove you to be wrong, and that's your response? I'll take that as an apology, Boston fans being sore losers and all

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stone

It's crazy how quickly and how far Sosa's stock has dropped.

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Between the corked bat, most baseball executives thinking he was on steroids through 2003, and his falling off the table physically, if the Cubs can find someone to take Sosa they're brilliant. I'm absolutely terrified that the Yankees will get him because he's a name player and Steinbrenner's probably not in a stable mental state right now.

I'm hearing a few rumors about the Yankees looking to take Todd Helton off the Rockie's payroll (he's due 119 million the next 7 years), I don't know if I like that one. I'll have to look at his home/road splits and know something about his mental makeup before I'll be in favor of another huge first base contract.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Your numbers are fucked, Foulke makes 3.5 million dollars??? He makes closer to 8 million dollars a year, you completely overpaid to get him away from Oakland.

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http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...e?statsId=5817

ESPN kindly requests that you stop making shit up.

Quote:

---

All you people that think Ortiz has always been this monster hitter for years are revealing yourselves to be bandwagoners. The Twins RELEASED him rather than pay him 900K because nobody thought he'd become anything special, never hitting more than 20 homers in the Metrodome or driving in more than 75 RBI. The Red Sox went into 2003 with JEREMY GIAMBI as the everyday first baseman over David Ortiz, and were looking to unload him. Ortiz had a monster second half of 2003 and has grown better and better ever since. Steinbrenner wanted to pick up Ortiz from the Twins but Cashman passed on him, because they had Johnson and Giambi plus nobody in baseball thought the guy was anything (besides Steinbrenner, oddly enough).

---

And Theo Epstein, that idiot sabermetrics guy.

Quote:

---

The Red Sox went into 2003 with a bullpen by commitee system that blew up in their faces, which is why they traded for Kim in the first place.

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Yes, it blew up so bad they went to the ALCS and their bullpen was lights out in the postseason.

Rumor on PTI.
Nosemar to the Yankees as a second baseman.

That would certainly improve team chemistry.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

That would certainly improve team chemistry.

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Whenever the Yankees and Sox(Mariners) had a brawl, Jeter would be on the side with either Noesmar or Arod doing nothing.

Imagiine though Jeter, Nosemar, and Arod on the same team, though. A totally alien conecpt in the 90's.

Oh yeah, Stotts is gone and going to be replaced by Neil Allen. Torre's crew is slowly getting wacked.

Its seem inevitable that Willie Randolph will end up as Mets manager. I mean really.. look at the choices: Randolph, Jaramillo (Texas hitting coach who apparently is very much respected) and Terry Collins (WHY?!). I wonder why they bothered interviewing anyone else besides Randolph. Now I actually don't mind a rookie manager as realistically the Mets won't be a playoff contender anytime soon. Most people just bring up the fact that he's a Yankee as a major turn off. I really don't care at all and care about which players they will eventually sign.

Richie Sexson is interested in talking to the Mets about their firstbase vacancy. If healthy Sexson could produce big numbers and he's not too shabby on the field. At least he'll be MILES better than the platoon of Piazza, Zeile (retired), Valent, Phillip..etc.

Sexson wants to meet Mets

Mets are also interested in Jose Guillen and asked the Angels to let them know if they will deal them so they could get first dibs. ugh.. what a talent.. too bad he's an idiotic hothead. (source: cbssportsline)

Mel Stottlemyre is reported to be retiring. So that means the Yanks will need a new pitching coach and a bench coach (Randolph is surely the next Mets manager). Mattingly will probably be bench coach and soon to be manager when Torre is gone. New pitching coach will come from the Yanks system (Neil Allen..not sure if he's a coach or manager in the minor leagues). ---ah..Tigana mentioned it already.. oops.


By the way.. tomorrow there will be some exhibition games between MLB and the Japanese league. I wish they would show the damn games on TV. Hopefully MLB.com will have them up to watch.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Saint of Killers

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/player...e?statsId=5817

ESPN kindly requests that you stop making shit up.

And Theo Epstein, that idiot sabermetrics guy.

Yes, it blew up so bad they went to the ALCS and their bullpen was lights out in the postseason.

---

Dumbass, were you even watching baseball last offseason? In 2003 the A's paid him 6 million, he took a huge pay cut? Foulke signed a 3 year contract for over 20 million dollars. Here's a link to the announcement from ESPN:
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1685414

Yeah, Epstein was so high on Ortiz that he played Jeremy Giambi over him.

The Red Sox scrambled after the first half of the season to make trades and fix the bullpen, and did a great job of it. The fact remains they went into 2003 with a bullpen by comittee and it blew up in their faces. Just ask anyone that's been a Boston fan long enough to remember it (not sure if there are any here besides Stone at this point).

SpoDaddy kindly requests that you newbie fans get your shit together before you question real baseball fans. Stone, please educate these baby Red Sox fans scurrying around.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tracer

Sucks that you Yankees and Red Sox fans have teams that can strong arm damn near any player away from other viable teams.

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Yeah, I really weep and feel guilt over taking a rent a player off the Astros after they took 2/5ths of the Yankee starting rotation this year, thus costing us a possible championship. I'd rather have Andy Petitte and Roger Clemens than Carlos Beltran any day.

I understand the smaller market frustration towards teams like Boston and New York, but Yankee fans aren't going to feel a drop of guilt after taking ANYONE off the Houston Astros. We want Andy back!!

The Mets announced Willie Randolf as the manager, I'm happy because Willie is a great Yankee that's deserved to be a manager for a long time and I want him to stay in New York. The Yankees need to give Joe Girardi the bench coach job, he's going to be the next great young manager. I want Joe Girardi as the next manager when Torre retires.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by stormy

...Steinbrenner...

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You mean that guy from seinfeld is real?!?!?

Do you ever see his face!?!?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

The Mets announced Willie Randolf as the manager, I'm happy because Willie is a great Yankee that's deserved to be a manager for a long time and I want him to stay in New York. The Yankees need to give Joe Girardi the bench coach job, he's going to be the next great young manager. I want Joe Girardi as the next manager when Torre retires.

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I have no problem with Randolph as manager of the Mets. Too many will say he's a Yankee and shouldn't get the job because of that which is ridiculous. He was a great yankee, multiple all-star, experienced coach and I'm sure learned alot from Torre. He's also a native New Yorker and I remember reading something about him growing up a Mets fan. He deserves it and I wish him luck cause the Mets got lots of work to do this offseason.

I also like Joe Girardi. He is very very good on YES and he seems to have great knowledge of both leagues..much more so than anyone else YES has at the booth. I think he will be sought after throughout MLB once he gets some kind of experience and the Yankees would be making a big mistake if they let him go to another organization.

Dead on Raystorm, couldn't agree with you more. Randolf grew up a Mets fan in New York and did play a season with the Mets as a player. He's proven he knows what it takes to win under New York pressure and has been learning from Joe Torre for 9 years. As a player he was a speedster 2nd baseman, so he knows the intricacies of small ball and defense. Perfect choice to manage the Mets.

Joe Girardi completely blew me away on YES too, he would talk about the players and the game in the pre and post game shows and I'd wonder aloud "Why the hell isn't this guy coaching for the team?". He was completely on top of Jon Lieber when everyone, myself included, didn't know how the hell Lieber was going to get through a Boston lineup that had put up 7 runs in 3 minutes the night before. He's brilliant, a Yankee from the Dynasty, and as a recent catcher knows the players in both leagues inside and out. If he doesn't replace Willie as the bench coach under Torre the Yankees will have pulled a major fuckup.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SPOdaddy

Again, where do you get your facts from dude? Quoted from Peter Gammons' November 23rd, 2003 ESPN.com article "Diamondbacks GM Joe Garagiola has been talking to the Phillies, Yankees and Red Sox all week about Schilling, who can block any deal. The sense is that since Jerry Colangelo said he wanted and expected Soriano and Nick Johnson in a Schilling deal, Steinbrenner's thirst for the man who helped beat the Yankees in Game 7, 2001 abated". Then they went and got Richie FUCKING Sexon in an awful trade with the Brewers. All you people that think Ortiz has always been this monster hitter for years are revealing yourselves to be bandwagoners. The Twins RELEASED him rather than pay him 900K because nobody thought he'd become anything special, never hitting more than 20 homers in the Metrodome or driving in more than 75 RBI. The Red Sox went into 2003 with JEREMY GIAMBI as the everyday first baseman over David Ortiz, and were looking to unload him. Ortiz had a monster second half of 2003 and has grown better and better ever since. Steinbrenner wanted to pick up Ortiz from the Twins but Cashman passed on him, because they had Johnson and Giambi plus nobody in baseball thought the guy was anything (besides Steinbrenner, oddly enough). The Red Sox went into 2003 with a bullpen by commitee system that blew up in their faces, which is why they traded for Kim in the first place. My God, how long have you been a Red Sox fan? I call bullshit on all of you that question my facts. I know my baseball, some of you don't (embarassingly so).

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Where the hell do you get off calling anyone a non fan?

The question was they never tried to trade them, everyone in Boston, including dave knows about all the things you just talked about, including Daved Ortiz never being traded by us.

I just don't get what the hell your even getting jumpy about with him, all he said was we never tried to trade him. Yes we almost didn't use him any better the than the twins did, but we never tried to trade him to the Yankee's.

Everything else you just said in that rant, though true, is irrelevant.

I think there is only one thing that Yankees and Mets fans in New York can agree on, the Mad Dog of WFAN is such an ass.

www.wfan.com, check the interview with Omar Minaya.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tigana

I think there is only one thing that Yankees and Mets fans in New York can agree on, the Mad Dog of WFAN is such an ass.

www.wfan.com, check the interview with Omar Minaya.

---

Don't get me started on those asswipes. I do find them entertaining and irritating at the same time. They trash the whole idea of Randolph being Mets manager (they didn't have ONE positive thing to say), they grilled Minaya pretty hard and can't seem to get a grip on the idea that Minaya picked who HE wanted as he has full reigns on Mets decisions.

Russo also bitched and moaned about Randolph's low salary for most of the afternoon and when he asked Willie about it he gave a great answer, "I'm already rich!" I thought Willie handled himself really well with Mike and Chris.


In other news.. Wally Backman was fired less than a week after the Diamondbacks hired him as manager.

Backman fired by Diamondbacks

Quote:

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

Where the hell do you get off calling anyone a non fan?

The question was they never tried to trade them, everyone in Boston, including dave knows about all the things you just talked about, including Daved Ortiz never being traded by us.

I just don't get what the hell your even getting jumpy about with him, all he said was we never tried to trade him. Yes we almost didn't use him any better the than the twins did, but we never tried to trade him to the Yankee's.

Everything else you just said in that rant, though true, is irrelevant.

---

You need to read the whole thread. I was being accused of making up that the Diamondbacks wanted Nick Johnson and Alfonso Soriano for Curt Schilling among other things (which is why what I posted is relevant), and I never said the Yankees almost traded for Ortiz from Boston. I said Steinbrenner wanted to pick up Ortiz after the Twins released him, but didn't because the Yankees already had Johnson and Giambi. As for the Red Sox thinking about trading him in early 2003, I'm still looking for some sources on that but I clearly remember it. There wasn't a set offer on the table, Epstein was exploring trading him pretty publicly though. Once I get a reference I'll put it up here.

Mad Dog's a bitch, that Omar interview is awful. They can't get over the fact that Randolf is "only" making 500K a year, what do they expect? This is a guy that's never managed in his life on any level, lots of experienced managers don't make more than 500k. Plus the team's got to pay Art Howe for the next 2 years. All Mike and the Mad Dog did the last week and a half was say "I have no idea who the best manager for the Mets would be", then Omar hires Willie and it's "How the hell did you hire this guy?". Drama queen bullshit, Willie will do an amazing job with the Mets.

Rumor has it that a scout for the Yankees might take over as bench coach, which is really bothersome. Joe Girardi needs to be the new bench coach. I'd fire Don Mattingly and make Jamarillo the new hitting instructor too. Mattingly can be a scout or a roving instructor or something, my early teenage years were filled with watching good players sit on the bench or get traded so Mattingly and his bad back could suck ass at first base. Now I'm going to have to watch Girardi and Jamarillo get passed by so this guy with no coaching experience can become the next Yankee manager???? Fuck that!

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=1917134 Article on manager salaries, makes Mike and the Mad Dog (Fatso and Fruit Loops, as Don Imus calls them) look even dumber.

I hate the Diamondbacks and laugh at their latest display of stupidity. The guy's been a manager for two years in your minor leagues and you then hire him as your manager, and never once did you do any sort of backround check? The guy was driving drunk and beating his wife the year before you hired him! And people are busy talking shit about the Mets hiring a New York tested Boy Scout with 6 rings as their manager?

Odds on top 5 teams Pedro Martinez will end up with

STAFF REPORT
FLORIDA TODAY

Wagerweb.com, an online sports betting site sets the odds on which baseball team Boston Red Sox pitcher Pedro Martinez, who filed for free agency, will play for next season:

1. Boston Red Sox 1:3
2. New York Yankees 2:1
3. New York Mets 3:1
4. San Francisco Giants 4:1
5. Florida Marlins 5:1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Odds on top 5 teams Pedro Martinez will end up with

STAFF REPORT
FLORIDA TODAY

Wagerweb.com, an online sports betting site sets the odds on which baseball team Boston Red Sox pitcher Pedro Martinez, who filed for free agency, will play for next season:

1. Boston Red Sox 1:3
2. New York Yankees 2:1
3. New York Mets 3:1
4. San Francisco Giants 4:1
5. Florida Marlins 5:1

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I read today that the Sox offered him 27.5 million for two years, with a 13 million dollar option for the third year. If he wants more than that he can go fuck himself. He's not the pitcher he used to be, if Schilling'll play for 12-14 million, then Pedro can play for 13.5 million.

Put the checkbook down George! No Pedro!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Put the checkbook down George! No Pedro!

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Put the checkbook down Wilpon! No Pedro!

Don't know if Leiter will be back and I'm sure Pedro could be a little better versus a National League lineup since there is one less decent hitter to worry about but I do not want him in the twilight of his career on the Mets. The Mets already have a few "twilight" players and another is not needed.

The Mets love getting washed up and overrated players after the Red Sox have had them (see: Mo Vaughn, John Valentin, Tony Clark, Cliff Floyd, Rey Sanchez etc..)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

The Mets love getting washed up and overrated players after the Red Sox have had them (see: Mo Vaughn, John Valentin, Tony Clark, Cliff Floyd, Rey Sanchez etc..)

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I know the Mets have a nasty habit of signing players past their prime. I hope Minaya puts an end to that. Don't think Floyd should be on that list since he was in the Red Sox for what.. a few months? Floyd is still a very good hitter with excellent power but his legs are not there anymore. He could be a good DH for a contender. I'm sure there is an AL team out there who needs a good power DH and could take Floyd off the Mets.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raystorm

I know the Mets have a nasty habit of signing players past their prime. I hope Minaya puts an end to that. Don't think Floyd should be on that list since he was in the Red Sox for what.. a few months? Floyd is still a very good hitter with excellent power but his legs are not there anymore. He could be a good DH for a contender. I'm sure there is an AL team out there who needs a good power DH and could take Floyd off the Mets.

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thats true the Mets are like a Olds People Ho,me, Their the Raidres of baseball.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by raystorm

I'm sure there is an AL team out there who needs a good power DH and could take Floyd off the Mets.

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Cliff Floyd is the most frustrating player in the world to have on your team, he's so good, but he fakes so many injuries. Maybe he'd excell as a DH, where he doesnt have to do anything but show up and hit.

why are Beltran and the red sox being mentioned in the same sentence? They already have the best outfield in the game, 2 of the 3 signed long term. And with Ortiz also signed long term, you can't DH Manny.

Beltran could adapt to RF.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dave is ok

The Mets love getting washed up and overrated players after the Red Sox have had them (see: Mo Vaughn, John Valentin, Tony Clark, Cliff Floyd, Rey Sanchez etc..)

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Dammit, you already already beat us in the biggest choke job ever, now you have to remind me that Tony Clark is on the Yankees! I hate you.

Note to fellow Yankee fans, Joe Torre is the worst evaluator of talent ever. Clark is a Torre gaffe if there ever was one.

No, Steinbrenner is the worst evaluator of talent ever.

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I read today that the Sox offered him 27.5 million for two years, with a 13 million dollar option for the third year. If he wants more than that he can go fuck himself. He's not the pitcher he used to be, if Schilling'll play for 12-14 million, then Pedro can play for 13.5 million.

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Pedro has been offered Schilling's contract. He has to respect that. If Pedro takes the offer, I will be really happy. If he signs somewhere for four guaranteed years at 14,15 million (hello, Yankees), then I won't be angry - I'll be happy that a guy like Pedro, with a body that could break down at any time, has settled his financial future for life.

The only situation I'd be truly unhappy about would be if Pedro signed for similar money/years with another team - Pedro signing a 3 year/40 mil Yankees contract instead of a 2 year/27.5 with the option Red Sox contract would hurt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Boston Globe

Jason Varitek's agent told WEEI Sports Radio this morning that the free agent Red Sox catcher wants a five-year contract with a no-trade clause

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At a total of $50 million.

See ya later Jason, it's been nice knowing you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Stone

Pedro has been offered Schilling's contract. He has to respect that. If Pedro takes the offer, I will be really happy. If he signs somewhere for four guaranteed years at 14,15 million (hello, Yankees), then I won't be angry - I'll be happy that a guy like Pedro, with a body that could break down at any time, has settled his financial future for life.

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Dude he was making 17 million a year, his financial future was already settled.

$15-$30 million more guaranteed is a hell of a lot of money, and I wouldn't blame anyone for taking it.

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Originally Posted by Kinopio

why are Beltran and the red sox being mentioned in the same sentence? They already have the best outfield in the game, 2 of the 3 signed long term. And with Ortiz also signed long term, you can't DH Manny.

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The Red Sox don't have the best outfield in baseball. Their outfield defense is bad (Damon is above average at getting to balls but has an awful arm), and their outfield bats while potent (mostly due to Manny) just don't compare to some other teams. The Cardinals and Angels have the best outfields in baseball on both sides of the ball. Keep in mind that once again Manny's being shopped around by Theo, that contract Duquette gave him is just brutal. If the Red Sox had their way, they'd unload Manny to free up the 20+ million per year, sign Beltran for center, move Damon to left and keep Trot in right. Then they'd get a guy like Renteria for shortstop and sign a ton of pitchers. They'd be smart in doing those things. Once you start ignoring chances to improve yourself because of past success, you're one foot in the hole.

As for the Torre/Steinbrenner/Clark thing, it's unfair to blame Torre for playing Clark when Olerud got hurt. Clark was great for the Yankees in the regular season after Giambi got hurt and before Olerud came in. Also, Clark is the fourth first baseman. If Giambi, Travis Lee and John Olerud weren't all unavailable Clark would have never seen a game. Clark was overmatched, and the second I saw Olerud limping in game 3 I knew we were fucked. I obviously didn't assume we'd lose to the Red Sox, but I thought losing Olerud might really fuck us up if not against the Red Sox then in the World Series. Torre's strength isn't as a talent evaluator but he's not especially bad at it either. Steinbrenner is AWFUL at it. I think Tony Clark is really taking unfair hits though, he was a clutch player with good defense at first base all year for us. He was just plain overmatched against the Red Sox in games he wouldn't normally even be in. He was awful for the Red Sox and actually pretty good for the Mets in 2003, I have a lot of Mets fan friends that were really angry that the Mets let him walk with no explanation.

The blame for the 2004 Yankees falls squarely on the pitching, Kevin Brown especially. It's come out that he basically kept demanding the ball, despite the Yankees pleading with him to honestly tell them how he felt. Then he kept going out there and looking like he wasn't even trying. Look at the games. Game 1- dominant Yankee victory because Schilling blew up, Game 2- close game Lieber outduels Pedro, Game 3- Kevin Brown sucks ass and the Yankees only win because they score 19 runs, game 4- close game Red Sox gut out a win by getting a run off Mariano, game 5- close game Tom Gordon blows it, game 6- Close game Schilling outduels Lieber, Game 7- Kevin Brown sucks ass. If El Duque starts game 7 instead, the great Jeter play leads to end of inning and maybe it's another classic Yankee win. In the first 3 games everything broke insanely for the Yankees: Schilling goes down game 1 and Moose comes out unhittable, Lieber comes out of nowhere to outduel Pedro game 2 then the Yankees overcome Kevin Brown by setting the postseason record for runs scored.

Then reality caught up to the Yankees and Olerud got hurt. Not Joe Torre's fault. The Red Sox were a better team and the Yankee's magic ran out after 3 games of dodging bullets.

If Pedro turns down Schilling's contract from the Red Sox he's a punk, regardless of what another team offers him. He's made his name and life as a Red Sox player and now he's been a part of the team that finally won. I'm really suprised, I didn't think the Red Sox would ante up with that kind of money for Pedro. He said all year that if the Red Sox showed him respect with their offer he'd stay, Schilling's contract is as much respect as the Red Sox could ever show him. If the Yankees sign him I will be devastated, word is Steinbrenner wants to sign Pedro then trade Posada (Posada HATES Pedro, plus the Diamondbacks want Posada for Randy Johnson and the A's love Posada's huge on base percentage). If the Yankees ever traded away a core Yankee from the Dynasty teams to bring in 41 year old Randy Johnson and appease Pedro I'd punch a wall and curse Steinbrenner for all time.

Outfields you mentioned, by average OPS (LF/CF/RF/Avg.):

Red Sox: 1.010, .857, .887 (.918)
Angles: .849, .789, .989 (.876)
Cardinals: .774, 1.061, .797 (.877)

Explain to me who has a better outfield offensively than Boston again?

Defensively, yeah. Trot being all gimpy out there killes his range, Manny is Manny, and I swear to God I throw harder than Damon does. Manny is not nearly as bad out in left field as some people think, though. His range factor and UZR numbers are all fucked up due to the Monster; every time a ball hits the wall that's a "blown chance" for him, even when they hit twenty feet up.

Manny's contract gets less ghastly every year that passes where he still puts up an OPS north of 1. It's still pretty nasty though; which makes moving him all but impossible (unless the Mets are really dumb). The contract would only get moved if they pay a good chunk of his salary or take on another ablatross of a contract, which really defeats the point of the move. Another issue that will arise after this year is that he will be a 10/5 player, meaning he will get an implicit no-trade (since he can reject any trade outright). Like it or not, he is not going anywhere... not the worst problems to have right now. Hopefully he doesn't turn into Jason Giambi. >_<

-Dippy

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Originally Posted by stormy

At a total of $50 million.

See ya later Jason, it's been nice knowing you.

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Relax Stormy, it is Scott Boras we're talking about. This is textbook Boras, start things off with an insane negotiating stance (Beltran wants a 10 year deal, with Arod Boras had the Rangers bidding against themselves with the second place bid for him in 200 being 100 million less than the Rangers contract, last year Millwood according to Boras had a 5 years $75 million contract offer on the table that he'd take if the Phillies didn't ante up. The Phillies said take a walk, Millwood ends up taking arbitration with the Phillies. Where was that amazing 75 million contract? Up Scott Boras' ass where he pulled it from.).

The Red Sox are going to say "No way", Varitek is going to test the market and see that nobody will go more than 4 years 40 million tops, Boras is going to come back to Theo and say "Jason has a 5 year 60 million offer waiting for him". Theo will call bullshit and offer 3 years 30 million, and it will come down to whether a fourth year and maybe slightly more money is worth it for Varitek to leave the Red Sox.

SpoDaddy/any random Yankees fan with a clue (hah?): What is the deal with the Yankees rejecting Jon Lieber's option? Are they trying to go cheap on him, when he was the best pitcher they had this year? The obvious answer is they are trying to pick him up to an extention on the cheap(er)... but this is the Yankees -- what they hell are they doing trying to pinch pennies? This makes no sense, unless he got reinjured at some point.

Oddly enough, he is a guy I would like to see in Boston. Liber has insane control -- 5.67 K/BB rate in 2004, after coming over from the NL. (For reference, Schilling this year had a K/BB rate of 5.8.)

-Dippy

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Originally Posted by Dipstick

Outfields you mentioned, by average OPS (LF/CF/RF/Avg.):

Red Sox: 1.010, .857, .887 (.918)
Angles: .849, .789, .989 (.876)
Cardinals: .774, 1.061, .797 (.877)

Explain to me who has a better outfield offensively than Boston again?

Defensively, yeah. Trot being all gimpy out there killes his range, Manny is Manny, and I swear to God I throw harder than Damon does. Manny is not nearly as bad out in left field as some people think, though. His range factor and UZR numbers are all fucked up due to the Monster; every time a ball hits the wall that's a "blown chance" for him, even when they hit twenty feet up.

Manny's contract gets less ghastly every year that passes where he still puts up an OPS north of 1. It's still pretty nasty though; which makes moving him all but impossible (unless the Mets are really dumb). The contract would only get moved if they pay a good chunk of his salary or take on another ablatross of a contract, which really defeats the point of the move. Another issue that will arise after this year is that he will be a 10/5 player, meaning he will get an implicit no-trade (since he can reject any trade outright). Like it or not, he is not going anywhere... not the worst problems to have right now. Hopefully he doesn't turn into Jason Giambi. >_<

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I agree with everything you said, except for two things. First of all, how exactly are you getting those OPS numbers? Season average for the position, final roster player season average for the position, final roster player career average for the position? I can find numbers for the Angels and Cardinals outfield that compare much more favorably to the Red Sox, it all depends on how we want to set the terms for reaching them.

Second of all, while I agree Manny isn't valued properly by outsiders on his defense, he's a weird player. Sometimes he'll make amazing plays in the outfield that make you wonder where the hell that play came from, sometimes he'll dive 10 feet in front of Johnny Damon to cutoff his throw or humiliate himself in the World Series by playing left field like an arthritic drunk. He's not your usual consistently bad outfielder, he's a below average outfielder that sometimes make laughably awful plays and once in a while makes a gold glove play. His contract doesn't get less ghastly since it's backloaded and guys like Ortiz are putting up the same numbers for like 15 million less per year on the same team now, but I understand your point that the guy does hit like a machine.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dipstick

SpoDaddy/any random Yankees fan with a clue (hah?): What is the deal with the Yankees rejecting Jon Lieber's option? Are they trying to go cheap on him, when he was the best pitcher they had this year? The obvious answer is they are trying to pick him up to an extention on the cheap(er)... but this is the Yankees -- what they hell are they doing trying to pinch pennies? This makes no sense, unless he got reinjured at some point.

Oddly enough, he is a guy I would like to see in Boston. Liber has insane control -- 5.67 K/BB rate in 2004, after coming over from the NL. (For reference, Schilling this year had a K/BB rate of 5.8.)

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That move (not picking up Lieber's option) scares the living hell out of me. The Yankees say they only turned it down because they want to sign him to a longer term deal for less money per year, like 2 years 12-14 million or even 3 years 20 million. He didn't get reinjured, I do understand shying away from picking up 8 million for him since his numbers are deceptive (he really found his new arm in September, always had amazing control but not always amazing control within the strike zone). That said I'd pick up the option in a heartbeat and THEN talk extension in the middle of the year. The last thing the Yankees should be doing is dicking around with one of their only 2 starters that can pitch in October.

If Lieber is not in the rotation next year it will be a disgrace.

Interesting article about rebuilding the Yankees: http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/page2...enfield/041109

Those OPS numbers were the yearly average for each player who spent the most time at that position. There was one exception: I have Trot Nixon as the RF for the Sox, when in reality he split time with Kapler and Millar (with Kapler playing the most games of anyone in RF). An important adjustment, since Kapler's OPS was only .701, bringing the OF average down to .856. I only threw in Trot because that was the OF you named (and to be honest, if the Angels or Cardinals had a similar situtation, they would have gotten that benefit too).

Kapler was overmatched this year, he is no good against RHP. He was originally intended to be Nixon's platoon partner, which makes infinitely more sense -- he has an OPS of .833 against LHP, and Trot has an OPS of .950, which would be a positional OPS north of .900. That is no joke. Do not even get me started with Millar out in RF... that was an adventure. :yuck:

Just for the hell of it, average by position in 2004:

Boston - .945, .830, .823 (.866)
Anahiem - .837, .743, 1.001 (.860)
St. Louis - .750, 1.028, .791 (.856)

Closer, but Boston still wins.

Oh yeah, the Manny/Ortiz comparsion just does not count. The Ortiz signing is like winning the goddamn lottery. Who in their right mind expected him to be a top-tier hitter and sign a below-value contract during the prime of his career? One other thing to point out there is that Ortiz is weak to LHP (expecially when they pitch up and him on him... just don't drop it on him inside or it's GGPO for you), whereas Manny just crushes everything in sight. Not a difference big enough to make up the fifteen million difference, but it needs to be pointed out.

As for my thoughts on Varitek... I think he is gone. Boras clients only return to their home teams under one of two conditions: when the home team is willing to overpay, or no one is even coming close to Boras' demanded terms and ends up taking aribtration. The former will never happen; I honestly can not see them offering a five-year contract to anybody, never mind a 33-year old catcher. The latter looks more likely, since I refuse to believe anyone will come close to those terms (closest anyone even throws out is 4/32, and that is one hell of a reach). Most agents I could look at this and go "this is just some bargaining ploy he's pulling," something completely understandable... but this is Boras. He has pulled some insane shit (take a look at what happened with Millwood and A-Rod.) I am curious to see how he handle Derek Lowe's contract (and is that with or without The Derek Lowe Face?)

The Lieber thing is weird. I could understand a team like Oakland not picking that option up and then taking the risk on resigning (he is not worth 8 million), but the Yankees could easily absorb that if they wanted to (and they do it all the time). Why take that risk? Unless they are intent on signing Pedro, Pavano, Radke, and trade for Johnson... jeez.

-Dippy

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Originally Posted by Dipstick

Oh yeah, the Manny/Ortiz comparsion just does not count. The Ortiz signing is like winning the goddamn lottery. Who in their right mind expected him to be a top-tier hitter and sign a below-value contract during the prime of his career? One other thing to point out there is that Ortiz is weak to LHP (expecially when they pitch up and him on him... just don't drop it on him inside or it's GGPO for you), whereas Manny just crushes everything in sight. Not a difference big enough to make up the fifteen million difference, but it needs to be pointed out.

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I agree, earlier in this thread actually I was arguing with just about everyone that Ortiz came out of nowhere (lots of bandwagon Red Sox fans seem to think he's been this monster player for several years). Ortiz was the Red Sox hitting the lottery in every way, without a doubt. My point was simply that lots of players are putting up big numbers that aren't making over 20 million dollars per year. And yes, Ortiz is not the hitter that Manny is.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dipstick

The Lieber thing is weird. I could understand a team like Oakland not picking that option up and then taking the risk on resigning (he is not worth 8 million), but the Yankees could easily absorb that if they wanted to (and they do it all the time). Why take that risk? Unless they are intent on signing Pedro, Pavano, Radke, and trade for Johnson... jeez.

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As a Yankee fan this drives me crazy, that they are risking Lieber signing with someone else. The Yankees don't have unlimited resources, Steinbrenner just cares more about winning than making money. The Yankees have caught up to their revenues with their payroll (and the crazy luxury tax money they pay) and are now losing money again, which explains the Lieber thing, but still. It's not worth the risk. In the end I can't see Steinbrenner letting money come before winning, he won't be outbid for Lieber. It's just a really stupid move to not pick up the option, and could blow up.

As for the OPS numbers, I could make them even closer if I adjusted the Red Sox numbers for their home park and the other teams for theirs. Also, Nixon can't hit lefty pitching and doesn't always play. Damon had a huge atypical year. This gets away from my point anyway though, which was never that the Red Sox outfield isn't potent offensively. It was simply that it's not the best outfield in all of baseball, and that there are better outfields both offensively and defensively (of course defensively). All three teams essentially have 2 regular outfielders and a third slot that doesn't have a healthy regular. The Angels have Guererro and Guillen (Anderson had an off year due to injuries, still put up a .789 OPS). The Cardinals have Edmonds and Walker as their big 2 with left field being either Mabry or Lankford most of the year. The Red Sox have Manny and Damon, with 3 or 4 players in right field. Here's the 2004 OPS for each team's big 2:

St Louis Cardinals
Jim Edmonds CF: 1.061
Larry Walker RF: 1.013

Anaheim Angels
Jose Guillen LF: .849
Vlad Guererro RF: .989

Boston Red Sox
Manny Ramirez LF: 1.009
Johnny Damon CF: .857

Anaheim is tricky to compare with the Red Sox because Damon hit 70 points over his career OPS in 2004 and Jose Guillen is a question mark. The Cardinals obviously come out on top by these numbers by a huge margin. If we go by career averages, the Cardinals also come out on top.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

plus the Diamondbacks want Posada for Randy Johnson and the A's love Posada's huge on base percentage

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Gammons

The A's have no interest in Posada

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Neither do the DBacks, but i can't find the quote now. The DBacks are rebuilding with young players, they don't want an expensive catcher when they aren't competing, they want prospects. Why do the yankees even want to trade him? He's better than Tek offensively. Although i have no idea how he handles pitchers, I'm of the opinion you don't pay a catcher to handle pitchers, you pay a pitching coach.

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Originally Posted by SpoDaddy

Keep in mind that once again Manny's being shopped around by Theo

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Peter Gammons

The Red Sox have no intention of putting Manny Ramirez back on irrevocable waivers …

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They were shopping Manny because he requested it at the end of the 03 season, saying he was extremely unhappy. That's all been put to rest now, Manny is not being shopped around, he's staying. The sox would have to pay a lot of his contract if he were traded, and as long as he's healthy, putting up an OPS of 1.000+ reliably, and happy in Boston he'll stay. All three of those things are just fine right now. That's not to say the Sox wouldn't like to be out from under that contract, but there is no reasonable way to get out of it and no pressing need to since he's playing fine.

I still want to know where the Yankees are going to get all this money to sign all the players they want if they're not making any money as you say. I bet thier payroll approaches $250-$275 million next year (and they'll still be making more in profit than every other team).

Managers of the Year were announced:

NL: Bobby Cox
AL: Buck Showalter

MLB awards page

Joe Girardi will be the new Yankees bench coach. Very smart move there by the Yankees. Girardi knows his stuff and will be a manager in a few years..in fact.. he may be Yankees manager after Torre. I know Mattingly is super popular but he doesn't talk much and Girardi was impressive in his time with the YES Network.

Girardi new Yankees bench coach

you left out the best news, Stottlemyer is coming back as pitching coach :lol:

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Originally Posted by stormy

you left out the best news, Stottlemyer is coming back as pitching coach :lol:

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Bah, I already lost interest in the 2005 season. Whatever free agent pitchers the Yankees sign will suck and it will be blamed on the fact that he can't pitch in NY.

Spo: Torre always has a special place in his heart for crappy players. Wilson, Sojo, Bellinger, etc. In the 90's the Yanks could get away with it, but now they can't, the other teams are too deep.

Dip: Leiber's arm history, plus the fact that George is going to sign every young pitcher on the market(Leiber is no spring chicken). Of course they will underperform with the Yankees.

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Originally Posted by stormy

I still want to know where the Yankees are going to get all this money to sign all the players they want if they're not making any money as you say. I bet thier payroll approaches $250-$275 million next year (and they'll still be making more in profit than every other team).

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I saw that Gammons article going against those rumors, I take it with a grain of salt. Gammons is almost always wrong with that kind of stuff, he's always been more of a carry the water for the PR people sort of journalist than a guy that really gets news. When was the last time Gammons broke anything? I think he's really overrated, he knows baseball and he's a great sportswriter but he really shouldn't be reporting on rumors and deals. In that area he's awful. Posada's father works for the Diamondbacks and they do want a catcher bad (the Yankees would obviously have to eat some money). I really don't have a clue why the Yankees would want to move him myself, I love Jorge Posada and think it will be disgraceful if he's traded. As for Manny, you're not entirely correct. He didn't ask to be traded, there were rumors that he was unhappy but there were also tons of rumors that he was going to be ripshit that he was on waivers or all but traded to Texas. When it comes to Manny Ramirez nothing is out of the realm of possibility.

The Yankees don't even come close to making the profit of some other teams. You have to remember, Steinbrenner cares more about winning than profit. If he had his way, he'd lose money every year but win the world series. He's the greatest owner in history in terms of spending his money on his team. Do you know how much money the Red Sox made this year? Or the Cubs? The Indians quietly made a lot of money, as did the Twins, lots of teams make a lot more money than they want you to believe. That the Yankees spend so much because they make zillions a year is a myth, yes they make the most revenue because they've created a huge fanbase through all the winning of the 90's. But they also reinvest it all back into the team. The Yankees broke even at best this year by all accounts, I could name 15 teams that made good profit in 2004. In 2005 the Yankees are going to lose a ton of money, their 2005 payroll will be higher than their 2006 payroll by a significant margin. If you saw the list of wealthiest baseball owners you'd be shocked, Steinbrenner is near the bottom. The owner of the Minnesota Twins, Carl Pohlad, is #1. The Cubs are owned by the Tribune Company.

You might be pissed off that Steinbrenner spends so much more than everyone else, but you have to give him credit for the fact that he spends all the money he makes on the Yankees back on the Yankees. If you want to argue that you don't like the system that allows him to spend that much, that's a valid argument.

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Originally Posted by Tigana

Spo: Torre always has a special place in his heart for crappy players. Wilson, Sojo, Bellinger, etc. In the 90's the Yanks could get away with it, but now they can't, the other teams are too deep.

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Not crappy players, Role Players. Players that can sit on the bench for two weeks then come up in the playoffs and get a clutch base hit. Wilson and Sojo were crucial parts of great teams (Sojo being HUGE). Bellinger was valuable because he could play every position. I do agree that he makes bad evaluations at times though, I still can't figure out what the hell he sees in Felix Heredia.

Why all this Mel Stottlemyre hate?

I could pick names out of a hat that add up to a $180 million pay roll and beat the Yankees 75% of the time. Cashman's head on a plate is the change they really need to make, but, thankfully, they aren't that smart.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I could pick names out of a hat that add up to a $180 million pay roll and beat the Yankees 75% of the time. Cashman's head on a plate is the change they really need to make, but, thankfully, they aren't that smart.

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Considering how there's been no correlation between salary and winning (outside of the Yankees, because they're dumb I guess), that's pretty amazing Yoshi. Why don't you replace Cashman and show us all how it's done?

http://www.gamingreport.com/article....thread&order=0

For all you Red Sox loving, Yankee hating baseball fans, here's something you'll love. BTW, I play MLB SportClix regularly, it's an amazing game. I highly recommend it, even though I'm sickened by that Babe Ruth figure.

M would like TNL to know that she promised God that if the Red Sox won the World Series, she'd quit posting on TNL for six months.

So she's banned by her own request for another five and change months.

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Originally Posted by burgundy

M would like TNL to know that she promised God that if the Red Sox won the World Series, she'd quit posting on TNL for six months.

So she's banned by her own request for another five and change months.

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Shit. We should have gotten dave is ok to make that guarantee.

The Washington Expos have signed Christian Guzman and Vinny Castilla, and Detroit has signed Troy Percival for 2 years, 12 million. Was everyone else asleep at the switch??? 6 million a year for one of the best relief pitchers of the last 10 years and Detroit is the taker?