Read the title, yo.
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Read the title, yo.
Apathetic
Liberal... I love gays, hate religion, and particularly enjoy killing babies.
Liberal-moderate... I hate religion, am pro-choice, and think gays should have the right to benefits from civil unions, but am anti-gov't-handouts and am of the opinion that people of the welfare mentality should be buried alive.
Moderate. I believe:
- marriage is between a man and a woman but gays should have civil unions with all the same legal benefits.
- that certain assault weapons should be banned (really banned, no that cosmetic crap law they passed) but anyone who legally wants to own a gun should be able to do so.
- in being pro life: I used to be pro choice but after the birth of my daughter, there's no way I can condone this. Roe vs. Wade should not be repealed though, as this would cause a major health problem in this country.
- that the govenment should help the elderly, handicapped, and those who cannot help themselves. The poor need to be helped to get on their feet and become self sufficient. I don't believe in handouts.
- in a strong military but not used to bully the world to further the agendas of corporate interests or revenge.
- the middle class needs tax relief and the rich should pay their fair share.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
IBTN
I agree with every point with the exception of allowing abortion within the first ~4 weeks and in cases of rape and endangerment of the mother.
I consider myself a conservative moderate, but I put moderate.
I'm going with Moderate, because I believe in:
-A Strong Military
-Health Care
-Big Government
-Gay Marriage
-Fiscal responsibility
-And paying attention to everyone's point of view, conservative or not. As a wise man once said, "A Liberal is open to everyone's ideas... as long as they aren't contrary to his own."
I voted "I don't know" before I read the replies but I guess I'm a Liberal since I'm totally with the following quote.
Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
"I'm Batman."
Batman was fucking gay... so liberal he is.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
Your poll is misleading, because liberal’s and conservative come from the same theoretical background called Liberal pluralism/neo-liberalism. You should have radical to your list.
I'm with Xeno, vote Snitsky for '08!
I'm sooo running under the Jonathan Swift party... I've got a modest proposal for the nation. :link:Quote:
Originally Posted by Xeno G
Moderate.
I bet you didn't like Robocop either, commie.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisco Bold
Actually, when I was younger, Robocop was one of the most distubring movies I ever saw. I kept having flashbacks of the scene where the chick got speared by the evil dude at the end of the movie, blood squirting out of her chest like kethcup. I didn't even look at Heinz for years.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
I dislike the terms "liberal" and "conservative" because life isn't so black and white.
I'm...
- Pro-choice on abortion.
- Pro capital punishment for violent criminals. I believe in harshly punishing criminals for crimes against others.
- Pro legalization of drugs, prostitution and gambling. If you're choosing to harm yourself, it shouldn't be a crime.
- Pro separation of church and state.
- Anti affirmative action or anything else that divides people on race.
- Pro freedom of speech/expression. Censorship promoters can die.
- Pro government health care but having free enterprise for virtually everything else, i.e. the way Canada currently functions is good.
It was the guy melting that really freaked me out, personally. "Uggh-- SPLAT!" And they made a cartoon of it, albiet completely divorced from the movie. I salute Hollywood of the 80's for pandering to the bloodlust of children.Quote:
Actually, when I was younger, Robocop was one of the most distubring movies I ever saw. I kept having flashbacks of the scene where the chick got speared by the evil dude at the end of the movie, blood squirting out of her chest like kethcup. I didn't even look at Heinz for years.
---
Moderate, at any rate.
uh...im going to choose radical.
I am Dangerous.
I guess moderate:
- I'm very pro-life.
- pro gay marragie.
- anti gay adoption
- extremely for seperation of church and state. Almost anti-religion as a whole.
- I beleive that censorship is being taken completely too far.
- very pro the war on drugs.
I like icecream!
moderate conservative, social conservative, fiscally liberalish
Come live in California for a year. That'll fix you up right quick. :DQuote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
I put "I don't know." A year ago I would have said "liberal" and maybe six or seven years ago I would have said "conservative/moderate." My views have changed a lot since I started forming them. I hated gays - I remember telling my parents that if I had a kid who was gay I would disown him/her. I really hated affirmative action in any form.
Nowadays, most of my political views are motivated by/based on my chauvinist and misogamist views. I wouldn't go so far as to call myself a misogynist, though. But, essentially, I hate marriage in the "ceremonial" aspect. I think women have the upper hand when it comes to that arena and it's gotten unfair - money, custody, whatever. I don't care if gays get married, particularly, but I support the solution of civil unions with the same benefits so that if I ever decide to form my cohabited company (a.k.a: get married) I won't be a jerk for not having a wedding or a ring or any of that other ceremonial irresponsibility. Anyone who thinks marriage in this country is anything other than a government-sponsored company formed to make a product (kids) need look no further than their marriage certificate for the raised seal of the State Secretary (the same person who certifies companies).
I don't necessarily hate children, but I don't view them as a consequence and I don't think that two people with aspirations should be forced to raise a child when they're not ready and thus abortion (while I agree is a gruesome practice in the later stages) is necessary. The people who have been born and are living and have rational thought are more important than the cell, the formation with a beating heart, or the unborn child since the parents may have children later. To me, the consequence of stupidly having unprotected/promiscuous sex IS the abortion. I think adoption ought to be promoted more than later-term abortions.
I don't hate God, either. I don't care what religion people want to be (or not to be) and I don't think it should be announced in public or be something to be concerned with. I think people who say, "This country was founded on religion," or whatever are dumb: this country was founded on commerce, plain and simple. Boston Tea Party, bitches.
I don't think there ought to be limits on free speech. If there ought to be, then stop calling it "free speech." I don't think the government should be interfering unless there is physical harm - stop being an offended little pussy and deal with it.
I don't like banning things. It's the lazy way out. This includes guns. Call it an archaic reference or whatever, we have a right to own guns. Banning stuff is a knee-jerk reaction instead of a researched idea to help solve the problem.
While I dislike the idea of capitol punishment, we're a long way from not having to use it. Banning it would be dumb, see above. Keeping it as a last-ditch thing is more my style.
Affirmative action based on income rather than race is more fair, in my eyes. I would have loved to have gone to Georgia Tech, but I just couldn't gather the money. Hard when you're a white male. Perhaps I should have tried a bit harder? I dunno. It's hard to be objective about yourself. In business, I think the courts are fair enough these days to determine if someone was not hired or fired based on discrimination. Quotas are stupid.
I don't mind immigrants. I don't know where my lily-white ass would be without them.
I don't know enough about health care to make a comment any which way. Aside from the fact that I don't have health insurance, I don't know if I like what Canada's got.
Did I forget anything?
EDIT: Oh yeah, I hate whiny liberals and knee-jerk conservatives.
I'm moderately fascist.
You did write in this same thread that you enjoy killing babies, apparently you eat them.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
That... was gold. ;)Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I am in a class by myself. I dont like what any side does, and I dont trust others to define what common sense should be. People are stupid.
The meat is sooooo tender and delicious.Quote:
Originally Posted by dave is ok
Like veal...but baby.Quote:
Originally Posted by bbobb
Man I love these posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
I'm definately conservative:
-I'm against gay marriage (though I'd think about civil unions as a means of compromise)
-I'm pro-life
-I'm definately not anti-religion (seeing as everyone is free to believe what they want..even the KKK)
-I'm for the ownership of guns and against the assault rifle ban (because if people are going to get assault weapons chances are they'll be getting them illegally)
-Im against the establishment of religion, yet I think the whole seperation of church and state argument has been taken way to far and used to basically nix Christianity from all aspects of society..thank you very much ACLU.... :rolleyes:
-I believe the government should help out the truly needy...not the lazy.
-Im definately for a strong military
I put moderate, but most people consider themselves moderate. In Washington state some people consider me to be uber-conservative. In the deep South I'm sure people would consider me a Hippy. It is all relative.
Sort of like how 75% of people polled consider themselves SMARTER than average. Something is wrong there.
If there was an option for "Hardline Conservative Motherfucker" I would've picked it:
-I am against gay marriage and do not think civil unions is a proper compromise and think one of the best ideas may be to abolish government sponsered marriage altogether
-I am against abortion in 100% of cases
-I am against welfare in 95% of the cases, only people who truly cannot support themselves should recieve it, as of now lazy motherfuckers who say they can't work get it
-I am against affirmitive action and don't think anybody should get government support in suceeding, I am a firm believer in the "self made man ideal".
-I believe in general freedom however I believe that the highest levels of freedom are destructive to society
-I am for expression of oneself however not in the way that Liberals look at it. I do not believe morals are relative to society and look at it as an across the board thing
-I hate the fucking media and think they are a bunch of money loving cocks who capitalize on peoples misfortune
-I do not think 75% of the people on the poverty line in the US are there because they can't get out, people are just lazy
-I am for complete independance of oneself except in cases where it really isn't possible, I do not think anybody should get handouts from the government or their family, however I do believe in charity and often contribute myself
-I am for a Corporate America but think the system now is very flawed, yes I work for a corporation, yes my boss is a money loving Stalinist, yes I don't get payed well for hard work but I've been given everything I was promised, I do not complain and accept what I have with gratitude.
-I am completely against firearms bans although I do think having a firearm liscence should be more then just filling out a paper, you should have to be certified. If it was up to me firearms ownership would be compulsarory
-I hate Liberal ideology to a bitter extent but respect well thought out opinions, don't get me wrong, I don't hate Liberals themselves
-I am an idiot who believes in God and Jesus and I think I'm going to Heaven when I die but I do not think the Bible should be used as a means of oppression or a means of control
-I believe that the country I live in should have a military that could fuck anyone up in the world to a ridiculous extent and should be filled with reasonable men, but who are bloodthirsty cold-blooded killers when they need to be but are able to fully control themselves in a normal society. I think it would be a good thing to have a period of conscription for all able bodied people but my ideals are a lot more complex and deep then just plugging people into the military so don't take me out of context
-I think women and men are different creatures, both are equal but in their own ways
-And last but not least, I'm a motherfucking asshole
Hate the sin, not the sinner? Forgive me if I don't beleive you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron
Even rape? That's grizzled. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron
Agreed. But then, that's their job.Quote:
-I hate the fucking media and think they are a bunch of money loving cocks who capitalize on peoples misfortune
I think it might be higher than that, actually.Quote:
-I do not think 75% of the people on the poverty line in the US are there because they can't get out, people are just lazy
Firearms certification isn't a bad idea, actually. But I guess that could be viewed as restricting every person's right to own a gun or something like that.Quote:
-I am completely against firearms bans although I do think having a firearm liscence should be more then just filling out a paper, you should have to be certified. If it was up to me firearms ownership would be compulsarory
No you're not. You're a warm, fuzzy teddy bear. ;)Quote:
-And last but not least, I'm a motherfucking asshole
I'm friends with a lot of people who I disagree with in almost every aspect, recently I've been developing my "do not argue" skills and I'm getting along with a much wider range of people. Sometimes you just have to swallow your pride and be a good guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
I understand why you would not believe me because a lot of people are bastards and are not very supportive of other people. Look at me though, I get into arguments with them but I'd say I get along very well with people like g0zen and Mike whose ideals I cannot stand.
If a persons opinion is deeply rooted in logic and sensibility I won't rag on them for it.
I'm a conspiricist thanks to Chris Carter. Trust no one!
*huddles in corner*
Mike, you beat me to the rape mention. I'm against abortion when it's used as an excuse to just fuck around. I guess I'm more of a liberal, but I also dig some republican stuff...so I'll go with moderate.
Yes, I would be against it even in the instance of rape. Having a child due to a rape might be an emotional nightmare but who knows, the child could turn out to be a really great guy and important person on this planet and could be a major blessing in disguise.
You would force a woman to have a child if she was raped. Forcing her to carry around a constant reminder that she was violated, and made into an object.
Dude, you're a fucking monster. Seriously.
I'm a radical secularist, global socialist, liberal environmentalist.
- I'm pro-choice in 100% of cases, I do not consider it a human being entitled to citizen's rights until the umbilical cord has been served and it becomes a self-sustaining organism.
- I'm anti-death penalty in all but the most extreme of circumstances, and even then I would only support lobotomizing or some other means of pacification other than death. I believe in rehabilitation when viable and imprisonment for the rest.
- I against gay marriage for the same reason I am against heterosexual marriage; it is government recognition of a religious activity. I believe the rights extended to people granted under a 'civil union' should be given to all those who enter into the contract regardless of their sexual preference. I also believe these should be the only means by which these benefits are incurred, and that the government should remain suitably distant from religion in all of its forms.
- I am pro-welfare because the percentage of those bilking the system is marginal when one looks at the facts. I understand that the only way to help the working poor tweak their cultural mindset from one of poverty to one of prosperity is through a certain level of federal assistance.
- I am pro-affirmative action in that I understand that women and minorities are hindered by established prejudices in our culture. If the only way to help promote diversity and turn us from an exclusive culture to an inclusive one is by forcing the acknowledgement of equal rights and opportunities for others then so be it.
- I believe in no censorship whatsoever under any circumstances. Everyone should be free to express their views, opinions, and expressions without fear of being repressed by the governmental entity.
- I believe morals should be not be upheld simply because of religious brainwashing but because of a mutual understanding for the rights of our fellow human beings. This way we aren't burdened by the moronic superstitious and ridiculous mores that religion has caused to hinder humanity from progressive unity.
- I believe the media plays a hugely important role in our society and must continue to be open and present a wide array of viewpoints from around the world.
- I am against allowing Corporate America to rape our planet of its natural resources, destroy its environment to the point of making it near inhabitable, and placing an ever tightening strangehold on the American worker. I am extremely pro-workers rights and think that they should have far more power in the workplace than they do now. I think that the government should tightly regulate Corporate America to keep it from gaming the system and using shady trade deals with countries that shamelessly exploit their workers to buy shoddy goods at illegally discounted prices.
- I am pro-control in that I believe no citizen has a viable reason to be in possession of assault weapons, heavy explosives, anti-armor and anti-material weapons, or anything that goes beyond the bounds of hunting or logical home defense.
- I am an atheist leaning agnostic in that I do not believe in the existence of God, but I'm not arrogant enough to rule out the possibility that I could be wrong. I am totally against organized religion in all of its forms, which I consider to nothing more than antiquated social control surrounded by ignorant superstitions. I do think that people have a right to believe in whatever spiritual system they choose, but it should be a highly personal matter, not a public one. I am strongly against the idea of proselytizing to the underprivileged or disenfranchised with incentives, which I see as very underhanded coercion.
- I believe the military should now and forever be at the whim of the civilian authority and the people who elected it. I am strongly against nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons proliferation in all countries, including our own. I think the U.S. should spend more time helping reform and empower the United Nations to become the global entity of policing and interdiction that it was designed to be. If this comes at some perceived cost of our 'sovereignty' simply by making our soldiers where a baby blue helmet as opposed to a red beret then so be it. I think that U.S. soldiers who commit war crimes should be subject to international law established at Nuremburg and adjudicated today by the World Court entity.
- I believe that anyone on recognized U.S. soil (and three miles from the continental mainland) are entitled to all the rights of a citizen as was set down in the Constitution. This goes for P.O.Ws as well as those deemed to be enemy combatants. Those being held should be immediately granted legal council, and if the evidence against them bears fruit then they should be tried in a court of law.
And finally,
- I am a fucking lunatic who should rarely be taken seriously.
I know there are a lot of issues I missed, but I can always fill them in later, right?
Thank you. You, um, at least were intellectually honest for the most part. I'm very frightened of you, but you probably knew that already...Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
Don't be afraid of me, be afraid of the fact that I'm not alone.Quote:
Originally Posted by NightWolve
- I'm pro-choice in 100% of cases, I do not consider it a human being entitled to citizen's rights until the umbilical cord has been served and it becomes a self-sustaining organism.
Agree (however, I think killing of a fetus unwilling of the mother is a criminal offense)
- I'm anti-death penalty in all but the most extreme of circumstances, and even then I would only support lobotomizing or some other means of pacification other than death. I believe in rehabilitation when viable and imprisonment for the rest.
Agree Except maybe lobotmozing...I would rather have people killed than a vegatable. I think that the entire prison system needs to be rethinked .
- I against gay marriage for the same reason I am against heterosexual marriage; it is government recognition of a religious activity. I believe the rights extended to people granted under a 'civil union' should be given to all those who enter into the contract regardless of their sexual preference. I also believe these should be the only means by which these benefits are incurred, and that the government should remain suitably distant from religion in all of its forms.
Agree Finally...somebody that sees that marriage should not be goverment sanctioned!!!
- I am pro-welfare because the percentage of those bilking the system is marginal when one looks at the facts. I understand that the only way to help the working poor tweak their cultural mindset from one of poverty to one of prosperity is through a certain level of federal assistance.
Well...I agree with some level of federal assistance, but the welfare structure of today is fucked up. The whole thing needs to be overhauled and there should be benefits setup for those seeking to improve their situation.
- I am pro-affirmative action in that I understand that women and minorities are hindered by established prejudices in our culture. If the only way to help promote diversity and turn us from an exclusive culture to an inclusive one is by forcing the acknowledgement of equal rights and opportunities for others then so be it.
Disagree I agree that women and minorities are hindered by prejudices in our cultures. I disagree with the fact that it is the job of the goverment to deal with these prejudices. It is something that we must deal with on a personal level, and only then will a change be made for the greater good.
- I believe in no censorship whatsoever under any circumstances. Everyone should be free to express their views, opinions, and expressions without fear of being repressed by the governmental entity.
Agree
- I believe morals should be not be upheld simply because of religious brainwashing but because of a mutual understanding for the rights of our fellow human beings. This way we aren't burdened by the moronic superstitious and ridiculous mores that religion has caused to hinder humanity from progressive unity.
Agree
- I believe the media plays a hugely important role in our society and must continue to be open and present a wide array of viewpoints from around the world.
Agree Except the word continue...I am still waiting for the media (especially news) to cover a wide range of viewpoints. Right now we have pretty much one...right and left are just opposite sides of the same coin.
- I am against allowing Corporate America to rape our planet of its natural resources, destroy its environment to the point of making it near inhabitable, and placing an ever tightening strangehold on the American worker. I am extremely pro-workers rights and think that they should have far more power in the workplace than they do now. I think that the government should tightly regulate Corporate America to keep it from gaming the system and using shady trade deals with countries that shamelessly exploit their workers to buy shoddy goods at illegally discounted prices.
I sorta agree...I believe that sustainability of our nation should be a huge goal of our goverment. Protecting our enviroment is worth just about any economic downfall to me. I think that any group of workers should have a right to unionize and strike for whatever reason they think neccesary.
- I am pro-control in that I believe no citizen has a viable reason to be in possession of assault weapons, heavy explosives, anti-armor and anti-material weapons, or anything that goes beyond the bounds of hunting or logical home defense.
Agree Makes sense to me.
- I am an atheist leaning agnostic in that I do not believe in the existence of God, but I'm not arrogant enough to rule out the possibility that I could be wrong. I am totally against organized religion in all of its forms, which I consider to nothing more than antiquated social control surrounded by ignorant superstitions. I do think that people have a right to believe in whatever spiritual system they choose, but it should be a highly personal matter, not a public one. I am strongly against the idea of proselytizing to the underprivileged or disenfranchised with incentives, which I see as very underhanded coercion.
I believe a person has the right to have any belief system they choose, no matter what it is. I personally am an atheist but I have respect for all religions
- I believe the military should now and forever be at the whim of the civilian authority and the people who elected it. I am strongly against nuclear, chemical, and biological weapons proliferation in all countries, including our own. I think the U.S. should spend more time helping reform and empower the United Nations to become the global entity of policing and interdiction that it was designed to be. If this comes at some perceived cost of our 'sovereignty' simply by making our soldiers where a baby blue helmet as opposed to a red beret then so be it. I think that U.S. soldiers who commit war crimes should be subject to international law established at Nuremburg and adjudicated today by the World Court entity.
I am AGAINST the UN. Not because I am worried about some sort of American sovereignty, but because the larger a goverment body becomes the more ability it has to become corrupt. I do not have faith that such a power would do the right thing in all cases and it is also proven to be highly innefectual.
- I believe that anyone on recognized U.S. soil (and three miles from the continental mainland) are entitled to all the rights of a citizen as was set down in the Constitution. This goes for P.O.Ws as well as those deemed to be enemy combatants. Those being held should be immediately granted legal council, and if the evidence against them bears fruit then they should be tried in a court of law.
Agree...sure
What about if not allowing abortion would end in the death of the mother, or the death of both mother AND child?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron
Politically, I'm half way between a garden variety liberal and a neo-liberal (libertarian). Philosophically, i'm a panthiest determinist humanist.
Hawking quantum mechanics can suck my nuts.
Einstein and Jesus kick arse!
On Welfare
"Welfare's purpose should be to eliminate, as far as possible, the need for its own existence." - Ronald Reagan.
I believe in a two tiered system, but where public = excellent, and private = excellent + luxuries. Everybody should have access to comprehensive health care and cheap pharmaceuticals. Everybody should have access to well resourced schools. I believe that this is necessary to give everybody the chance to be what they want to be according to their ability and work ethic. Unemployment benefits should actually benefit the unemployed, that is, they should receive benefits only under the condition that they do community services and training in order to acquire the skills they need to gain employment.
Abortion
I am pro-choice, but I believe abortion is a drastic solution to a preventable problem. I think the blame lies in the creation of a society that undervalues sex education because of the belief it will "give teenagers ideas", when in reality, all the ideas come from "that special place". Free condoms for all, YAY!*
*except if your religious, in that case you should practice what you preach and not fuck before marriage.
Separation of Church and State
I am Australian, so this is a non-issue. But on religion, I believe that corporations under the guise of a religion (read: Scientology, Sanitarium, and Church of the Hillsong) should be put under pressure to not practice capitalist ideals and to give substantial charity to the community, otherwise their tax free exemption should be revoked. In it's current state, legitimate churches that actually give back to the community are being marginalised, and corporations that don't front are being punished.
Guns
Guns shouldn't be banned, but those that own guns should be registered.
Drugs
All drugs should be made legal. As the legalisation of drugs will make the manufacture and distribution of drugs a far less profitable business, reducing organised crime; and will also reduce the cost of drugs, preventing the majority of petty crime. However, "hard drugs" should only be legally usable in community run "shooting galleries", where health care workers can ensure that needles are not shared (lessening the strain on the health care system), were overdoses can be prevented, and where intervention (church/community based) can be targeted on users.
Environment
I like it.
War
What is it good for? Absolutely nothing!
I suppose I'd say I'm more of a moderate liberal.
I don't really believe that abortion is a solution for anything, just another mechanism for our people to dodge responsibility. In my humble opinion, it's aiding in cultural decadence, the idea that problems can simply be nuked rather than dealt with.
I make no religious implications, nor must you assume that I believe rape victims are responsible for their actions. However, I believe that the child is not at fault for what occurred to the mother, and for that I do feel there is a responsibility to at least afford it the luxury of life, rather than let it die as a target of spite or guilt.
Gotta go with Liberal, I'm insanely on the left of most issues, but I do approach things with a centrist, even attitude.
On Welfare
People need help, but people abuse help too. Welfare, and other programs are neccessary, but should do everything in their power to encourage finding a job, or a proper location to make a living wage.
I like the idea of Welfare on a limit personally.
Abortion
Pro-Choice. Religion has no place in this argument, practical beliefs do. If you believe life starts at conception practice what you preach, but the fact is and always will be, impending any right given to a citizen under constitutional law is the crime. Abortion perhaps needs more of a context, but without it, we'd have a lot more problems socially than we do with it. .
Separation of Church and State
Specific religion can have no place in a government for the people. It just can't, and when it begins to take hold becoming as much as majority as republican or democrat, well, kiss the free government you knew in its golden years goodbye cause by default, you are now a totalitarian state.
Guns
Fine people want Guns, its in the constitution. But this is the one program I really wouldn't mind being fedralized. No one needs more than one gun for any reason, unless they are law enforcement or military.
Drugs
Eh. Pot, legalize it already. You could clear the deficit in a year. I hate it all personally, but if alcohol is legal, Pot should be legal.
All other drugs, its far to complicated an issue other than bad, and need to go away.
Environment
Needs to be in the top 3 of issues now that its coming down to global warming crunch time here. Call me a tree hugger if you want, but this is the only planet we got, and all the money, oil, wars, drugs, abortions, videogames, music, and terrorists in the world won't mean shit in about a 100 years when we are sitting about a 100 feet below sea level.
War
Sucks in all its forms.
Especially when we start them.
I guess I am Liberal. I'm what they call Liberal around here anyway, but I'd like to say I am Empirical.
I posted this previously.
My views: I hate centralised government, not because I swear by states rights 100% (I belive something can be controled via a moderate centralized gov't) but because the government has shown, time after time, that it cannot manage itself efficently and thus, should be broken down into more manageable portions and goverened, if only in part (be it large or small) by the states. I belive in less government spending, and less forigen involvement. I think taxes should be as low as possible while still providing (efficiently, which beings us to the first point) what I qualify as modern human rights such as education and health care. I do NOT want the qualified professionals in education or in medicine to see a slash in pay, or a loss of benefits (indeed, this is the fear of the medical community in the US as it's already painfully apperant that those not in private education are compensated little). I wish to first see the systems, in place now, improve in their efficency (defence for instance - 428 Billion a year without the cost of forigen conflict - yet we are still under-equiped in areas like armor? 1.1 Trillion dollars lost over the past 6 years? Thats unacceptable. The consitution is there to make sure the government is accountable for what it does - if the DoD cannot account for its spending, as it openly says it can't, then it is in dire need of reform, not wanton feeding of the worst of our beasts. Public Health Care takes a back seat to this since if DoD and a variety of other departments cannot adequately account for themselves and the tax dollars they spend then there's no reason to belive public health* will work in the United States. Not yet.)
As rules, I belive that everything must be subject to examination and cross examination, everything must have facts, and qualitative evidence supporting it and that all actions of the government, municipal, state and federal, must be endure the burden of proof. Like with science. As a rule, I belive that the nation must be seperated entirely from religion as a secular entity. Faith, the primary tennet of religion, undermines the need for proof or argument. Faith is as such - and accepting policies on good faith (I think of the Patriot act, though not nessisarlly steeped in religion, I belive it was passed more with faith in that the administration would do well with it, than the proof that it would be beneficial to Americans and not infringe on their rights, the ultimate rights of the nation.).
As for hot button stuff: abortion - neither here nor there on my radar. I belive it's possile to see both sides very clearly and attempt to come to a reasonable conclusion. However, since it is such a hot-button issue. Even suggesting that one side or another might have a point immediately discredits you, as a politician or a person of any wieght in their political views, by the opposite side. Saying that you can see some circumstances where abortion would neither be 100% nor amoral - or in fact, more moral than not - immediately puts you into the pro-choice side 100% despite the fact that 99.5 % of the time you find abortion unjustified and morally ambigious. It is with this reason that I stay away from the issue. Nothing can be solved with so many hotheads.
Gay Marrage - I belive all people should be allowed a beneficial civil union. If marraige is a religious insitution then marriage has no place within government. There should be no distinction, in a civil union, by race, creed, color, sex or sexual affiliation. Equal rights, not special rights. It should be the curches desision as to whether or not they wish for gays to marry, as a religious ceremony. It should not be the states or the federal governments role to interefere with that nor should it endorse it with benefits. A seperate civil union can be sought by those who want said benefits which are enjoyed, currently only by heterosexual marriages. I do not belive family values are under attack by this either.
These are some things I belive. You can refer back to this for future political threads -_o
*Public Heath exists in some form in Medicaid and Medicare et al. These institutions are too little for too much. Revisions indeed need to be made. Not just to these systems, but to the method of which these systems are put into place and how they are run on the most fundemental levels. I think this can be said of all insitutions within the government.
Also: On Welfare - I agree with AstroBlue.
Astro really hit it on the head and explained how I feel a lot better than I could myself. That's probably because he's smarter than me. :)
NightWolve has a good article about gay marriage from the FRC. I may totally disagree with it, but it brings the argument down to a very basic argument. I can't remember the link so hopefully he'll post it.
"However, "hard drugs" should only be legally usable in community run "shooting galleries", where health care workers can ensure that needles are not shared (lessening the strain on the health care system), were overdoses can be prevented, and where intervention (church/community based) can be targeted on users."
pppft...let them die
What kind of solution is that? You can use hard drugs if mommy holds your hand. And I'd rather pay people to put a bullet through these people's brains than to make sure they are safe(r).
I support:
01. Smoking the mary jane liberally (because Im a stoner).
02. Abortion in rape and mother's health situations
03. Loose gun control.
04. Abolishing the death penalty
05. Getting rid of social security and replacing it with something sustainable.
06. Stricter standards on SUVs.
07. Blowing up brown people.
What about light brown people? I don't really like them much, either.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Oh yes: there's absolutely no reason, at all, for civilian owned guns. But I feel this way because I'm Canadian. Instead of rising against the tyrannical British, we politely negotiated towards independence/confederation, without overstepping our boundaries, mind you, for 100 years.
The more brown people bombed, the better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
I'd rather be a burglar who picked your house than a burglar who picked mine. The only question in my house is which Yoshi shoots your ass first.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brisco Bold
Heh. Touche. But I feel safe enough up in Canada not to worry about gun-toting Republican dinosaurs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
You do know there are other defenses against robbery than toting a gun? I think Yoshi is also friggin paranoid.
None as quick or as effective.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
That's just, like, your opinion, man.Quote:
I think Yoshi is also friggin paranoid.
That's the way I look at it, so no, I'm not a fucking monster. I don't think tragic things should be forgotten and pushed away into the past, I think they should be overcome.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
In response to Astroblue about my comments on abortion. If it is possible the mother will die then, no, I still would not support abortion, if they were both going to die, well that's a hard one, I suppose I might support abortion in that case.
In response to some of the comments about guns and there's no reason for anyone to have them. Well there's also no reason you have to own a Playstation, I like firearms because I like to shoot them, mostly high velocity assault rifles and big caliber single shot rifles, a very very large percentage of gun crimes are committed with illegally owned weapons, very few crimes are committed with legally owned firearms.
The major reasoning behind the constitutional amendment in the US for firearms ownership was so the populace would be able to prevent an oppressive and corrupt government from rising to power. I explained this in another thread and think it still applies completely in todays society. The guerilla war in Iraq causes a lot of damage to our military even though we are winning on a tactical scale, now, just think 30 times that amount of guerillas (even up to 100 to 500 times the amount) who are much better armed, much better trained and much better educated and think of the damage they could do to the US military. It would likely be destructive if the government had large military support but I don't think the US military would stand a chance as their armor and airforce would lose much of it's effectiveness. Troop morale would also be horrible even if they didn't mind killing fellow American citizens as they would constantly be suffering small but vicious attacks that they are unable to respond to.
so if something terrible happens to the mother she should bring on something terrible to her child? Don't return evil with more evil. Also she can put the child up for adoption if it's really that hard. There are many cases where rape victims don't abort their children, they view it as a blessing coming through something evil. That whole "the baby is a reminder of the rape" argument is total crap, killing a child (who is completely innocent) for something that someone else did is just ridiculous. It would almost be like me presenting a lawsuit on my neighbor because lightning split a tree and caused it to fall on my house.Quote:
Originally Posted by Josh
Personally from my view, people who are for abortion are monsters....its a human life, not a choice. Face the consequences for you're own actions and take the responsibility of the human life you created (whether it be intentional or not)
It isnt a child though...it is not equivolent to a human being until it is born. It is some fraction thereof, but it does not equate to murder. Personally, I think until the baby is born it is just another organ in the woman and she should have the right to remove it if it is displeasurable to her, no matter if the sex was willing or not.
Well, really, she's more important than something that's inside of her, especially if that thing inside of her was not wanted or planned originally.
Call me a monster, but then I also don't view it as a human being until it has rational thought, so...
That's pushing it a little seeing as scientists say a human doesn't reach that level of mental maturity until around age 7.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
EDIT: Also, there's something I think we need to dispell. Being pro-choice does not necessarily make one pro-abortion, no matter what dumbasses like the Right to Life Movement say. By being pro-choice you are supporting the woman's right to decide what she does with her body, whether it be to carry a child to term or to abort it. The choice is a personal one, not a legal or religious one to be made FOR the woman.
Well, you have to remember that after a certain point the thing has a heart that beats.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
Of course, I have no problem with eating meat so I have no problem with abortion.
You don't want to get into how much I hate kids.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
But anyway, by rational thought, I'm referring to the ability to override instinct. Last psychological journal I checked said that was four months or so.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
My arties can also beat...but if one of those fuckers gets all jammed up its getting out of me.
By rational I assumed you meant being able to discern right from wrong, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Awesome, we can kill most of the human race!Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
But seriously, I think the hypothetical situtation where the mother will die in birth is far less clear cut. You're saying that the mother would be killing the baby; but the other way, indirectly, wouldn't the baby also be killing the mother?
That shit is the acid test.
And, this has been said before, if abortion is murder, than is preventable miscarriage (written on the death certificate and known in medical fields as spontaneous abortion) manslaughter?
I know. I was playing the devil's advocate in that example.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
I can't pick a correct single word for what I mean. I used to say "logical," but that didn't pan out. Then I tried "sentient," and someone called literal on that, so now I'm using "rational." I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
For those who say that it is not a human life until it is safely out from the womb or at least in the third trimester, I call bullshit.
The mother is not filtering her entire nutritional system unto a fucking tumor, for goodness' sake. It's simple justification for a much more complicated process. The mother turns into a nurturing MACHINE. She enters a symbiosis that begins the moment an egg is fertilized.
Does a bad heart literally kill someone? It's not something that is capable of making the actual cognitive turns to commit the act, it's just a little wriggly animal. And animals < us.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
EDIT: Yes, that means, "Fuck you, vegans."
I'm going to have to call bullshit there, it's not a mutualist symbiosis, and the baby is still biologically the mother, a bit of jizz doesn't change that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
So where does this new life come from? Does it claw its way out of some sort of intergalactic wormhole and rent out the mother's womb? No, it grows and develops off the energy that the mother provides to it. Two entities sharing one body, I'd call that a symbiosis.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
Read TEH Edit.
I don't know about Astro, but let me put my thoughts this way, aside from all other evidence:Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
Is it a choice to have a child? I mean, originally - you sit down and say to your (hopefully) husband/wife that you want to have a child and it is decided that a child will be had OR the child is an accident and you decide to go ahead with the birth. Is that a choice? If people can choose to bring a kid into the world, I think they ought to be able to choose NOT bring one into the world.
Children are not consequences. Abortion is a radical action to take, but necessary until we can get people to think this shit through more fully.
By definition a symbiosis may be exclusively beneficial to one of them, and regardless of the genetic makeup of the infant in its early stages, a developing infant is still far different from an egg, which the body will eventually reject if not fertilized.
It's not mutualist symbiosis, but rather simply parasitism. The mother can live without the gestating newborn, but the newborn obviously cannot live without the mother. Ergo, if the mother decides she no longer wants to be host to the newborn she should have the right. It IS her body that is being used to foster the growth and development.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
What about a tapeworm then?Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
A tapeworm is a foreign body that was introduced to the body. Though tapeworms do grow and develop off of the hosts nutritional system, it's nothing compared to what a mother's body does in order to prepare for nurturing a child.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
The fact that society has declined as far as to argue the right of an organism (Im refering to humans, not animals/plants), no matter how far along in the birthing cycle, is absurd. The next big step in the logical regression of society is euthanasia. (yeah I know that's not what we're talking about but I'm just pointing that out..its only a matter of time till society finds that acceptable) Yeah the left is real enlightened :rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
There are several comparisons to be made, but what is important here is that it is the mother's body alone that insures the newborns development. If the mother, for whatever reason, decides she no longer wants her body to be used in this manner it should be (and currently is) her right to terminate the relationship.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
So is sperm. Sperm utulizes a cell (the egg) much in the same way a some virus utilize human cells, then developes similar to that of a tapeworm egg. They all can do some amazing things to the human body, but they are all taking advantage of the human body to create conditions best suited for their own survival.
I think that anybody who wants to be euthanized has that right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic0
You're taking an idiotic standpoint. By following the far-right's laughable train of thought, then life begins at conception and birth control instantly becomes murder by the same logic as stem cell research and abortion.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic0
Edited for content, by choice.
It wasn't regarding the genetic makeup. If that was that case, we shouldn't kill any tumours because they are "new life" and you are apparently a completely different being to when you were two. Mine was about life.Quote:
Originally Posted by ViciousJazz
I think i've said this in another thread, in absolute terms, no new life has even been created since the original abiogenesis event (whether you think that was when God finished his work in CAD or whether you think we rained down from the sky as amino acids). You are the continuation of the same life as your mother and you father, etc.
And how do you define different? What makes you inherently "different" from your mother and father?
Abortion is an impossible question.
Don't assume that leftists are regressive animals with no regard for civilized discourse.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic0
It is my belief that society will eventually overcome many of the taboos that have been left by our overly puritanical anscestors, but for now there's a great duality to our behavior.
It is also my belief that to some degree, human beings not only require, but inherently desire strife and suffering. Without it, there would be no discipline or order. Without anything to fear, every man becomes a nation whose beliefs are irrefutable. We're only so lucky to be able to harm one another and have dissenting beliefs. But I think that in this particular case, abortion removes a certain aspect of (self) control and fear among human beings.
Yeah, me too, but I also agree with George Carlin about that matter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
The far-left's train of thought is laughable too but you follow that.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
It's really a matter of how you percieve the world.
No it isnt. If we are fucking with definitions I change abortion to mean anything I damn well please. Personally, I think of it is removing a fetus. Abortion is therefore still a valid question.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
Its a valid question but an impossible one to answer definitively because, as AstroBlue and I have said before, its more of a question of ideology than anything else.
I would agree with you if it weren't for the fact that the right's position in this is stimulated solely because of a religious modus operandi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron
You probably know that I am a religious person however most of my political and ideological views have nothing to do with religion, I try to figure things out on a more logical manner and that does include my views on religion as well. If you're a Conservative you cannot use religious context to defend your position because it is useless on people who are not religious.
Oh, agreed.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Bwhahaha! How cute.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic0
But seriously, if you're willing to kill a mother simply because she got knocked, up, why not take this to its ultima thule:
Quoted for emPHAsis.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
You pretty much hit the nail on the head...I do agree with those things. However, that does not make my train of thought laughable. I could say the same about yours. We hold different opinions and we both think we're right. You're just as stubborn as I am.Quote:
life begins at conception and birth control instantly becomes murder by the same logic as stem cell research and abortion
Yeah that's a good point. We'll never reach a conclusion because we're arguing from different definitions and different idealogy. Just as I will never accept you're definition of it, chances are you won't accept mine.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
when did I mention killing the mother?Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
and this thing about miscarriage, are you saying that in order to prevent miscarrage (which from my understanding, which is limited, is a child that just dies due to complications) you're just going to abort the child?
Abortion has several meanings, what we've been arguing about is induced abortion. The meaning of abortions in terms of miscarrage (and the abortion you mentioned in the quote) is "The premature expulsion of a nonviable fetus from the uterus; a miscarriage".
No, I respect and accept your opinion, and believe I could be wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic0
You didn't, but Gohron said that if abortion was the only case of saving a mothers life, he would let her die and the child survive.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic0
No... my point kind of flew over your head. What I was saying is that if you equate induced abortion with murder, then you should also equate preventable spontaneous abortions with manslaugter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nic0
if rusty coat hanger = gun
then
being too fat = running someone over when drunk
It's a tough thing to make a desicion on but the way I look at, if you aborted the child to save the mothers life you would be, in a way, murdering to save a life. If and when I get married and my wife is put in a situation like that I would probably leave the desicion up to her ultimately (and would really have no choice) but I would put her in the way I think of as the right direction, it would kill me inside but it's my perception of how things like that should be dealt with.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
Maybe it's just me, I really don't understand other peoples fear of death because I virtually have none. If I get back into the USMC and a grenade came into the bunker or area I was in and it was going to kill some other Marines or American personal I would say now that I would definatly jump on it or would give my life in another situation that was alike. I've been in several situations where I thought I was about to die and I felt startled and my mind was blown about what was going to happen to me but I really wasn't scared.
Situations as you mentioned are very difficult to make a desicion on but I have my beliefs and I stand firm by them.
Letting someone die that you could save is equated with murder within medical ethics, that is unless of course they have religious beliefs (such as Christian Science) in which such care is not wanted. So either way you're murdering one life to save another.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron
That's why it's a litmus test.
Your answer is based on whether you believe "established life" is more important than "potential life". That is the only rational pivot.
It's not lost on me that only males have been debating abortion in this topic.
I certainly don't consider it murder to save another life as under the current laws in the US the desicion is ultimately up to the women carrying the baby. I may consider it killing a person to save the life of another but I do not equate killing and murder as the same thing. In a war-like situation you may have to kill people, either to save your life or the life of the other people on your side, would I consider that murder? Certainly not.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
People die, that's not to say that I think murdering people is not wrong but I do not equate aborting a baby to save the life of the person carrying it murder. It's a very very tight ethical question, if it was up to me I would outlaw abortion but in such instances as you mentioned I would probably still leave the ultimate desicion up to the person carrying the baby.
EDIT: My original statement said "That's not to say that I think murdering people is wrong" when I meant to say "That's not to say that I think murdering people is not wrong." Basically I am saying that murdering people is wrong in case you took my typo the way it was said.
So you believe everybody should be given the chance to not be afraid to die, and then die?Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron