Dude, I've been saying this forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasteel
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Dude, I've been saying this forever.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasteel
Evolution is a very misunderstood theory. It is non-progressive. There is no movement from better to worse or disorder to order present in it. There is noQuote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
final goal to evolution. As for the laws of thermodynamics, and the atoms, EVERYTHING is the result of the union of dynamic opposites, "higher" things tend to descend, lower things tend to ascend.
Don't be an asshole.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
yeah Astro. You know very well that it was a full bodied yet elegant 2001 penfolds BIN 407 Cabernet Sovignon, showing minty blackcurrent flavours with a complex boquet of rich varietal character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jesus Christ
Definetly something kickass like Chateau Beaucastel to have so many followers. Meaning Jesus travelled through time to get it.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
You win.Quote:
Originally Posted by arjue
I want to become a wino. It'd be sweet to get smashed off wine and ramble on about its oak intergration and shit to people who don't care.
I had some kick ass chiraz at a friends house today.
Wheee!
Who said that evolution must happen due to intelligent intervention? To use an example, various kinds of apples already existed before we intervened, but the deep red apples you can get at the supermarket came about because of us. We altered them for our own good, and had we not, they would have continued on totally different evolutionary paths.Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
As for turning a carrot into an apple, guh? Even macroevolution is more than just "carrot one generation, apple the next."
Plants can sin? Wow, that's pretty amazing.Quote:
As for species dying off, the answer is that sin doesn't simply affect humans. Creation itself is decaying and dying off. Romans 20-22 back up the fact that all of creation, meaning the entire universe, is deteriorating. Sin really is universal.
Since when is abortion something we champion? Even pro-choice activists think abortion is a bad thing in general.Quote:
True... Love does imbue us as a species with nurturing and defensive attributes. But since when does parental sacrifice such as saving for college and keeping in touch and in communication with offspring have any kind of survival quality? Christmas, birthdays... none of this is necessary for survival. Archival of memories (Pictures, family movies), desire to see children avoid our pitfalls and do better than we did... how's that survival? Since when does a mother bear care if her children get fatter than her? Do flies check up on maggots to see if they getting all their vitamins and minerals? Last time I checked, no. I'd be much easier on us guys just to nail some chick then leave her, and nail as many women as we can, with or without consent... that'd be in keeping with nature wouldn't it? But we don't. We don't call guys who just nail any woman, get her pregnant, then leave 'great producers'... eventually we call them 'deadbeats'. What of abortion? Certainly abortion flies SMACK in the face of survival, now doesn't it?
And you're really asking why one generation trying to make the next generation better can help survival? Parents want the best for their children because they want their children (as the future of the species) to continue to survive, be successful and reproduce. It's a pretty basic thing.
And flies lay many, many eggs. It doesn't matter if a few of them die because, hey, it's no big loss. Proportionally, anyway. However, the fewer babies an animal has, the more likely it is to be protective of said baby. Just try to seperate a puppy from its mother, especially if the mother doesn't know you.
As for Christmas, birthdays, etc... zuh? What does that have to do with anything? They're rituals, celebrated some places and not celebrated in others. What do they have to do with what we're talking about?
I'm told Austrialia produces the best Shiraz... then again... I've only seen Austrailian Shiraz.Quote:
Originally Posted by arjue
I'd never want to become a wino. Red wine hangovers suck, and I don't really like white.
I always thought Wine hangovers were clean...
no, red wine hangovers are notoriously bad. Apparently though, the better the wine, the nicer the hangover.
and I have next to no knowledge on wine, I've only started drinking it very recently (I got all that shit I said off the bottle infront of me LOL).
LAWLQuote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
For fucks sake you said before that "love" has an evolutionary negative effect? Do you need me to draw a picture? It will involve people "in love", and penises entering vaginas. Everything you have said is at best "bullshit" and at worst "bullshit".
Okay, since I think TNL is slowly turning me to an arsehole, I'll give explanations to my diffx imitation.
BTW I <3 diffx
Ok, evolution is not random, it is based on "natural selection", the only random thing in evolution is the collosal amount of mutations which provide the diversity that is selected.Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
Imagine you have a jar filled with M&Ms and walnuts, you keep shaking this jar erratically for about one day straight, eventually you will have a jar where most of the M&Ms are at the bottom of the jar and the walnuts will be resting on the top. The random shaking (mutations) facilitate the deterministic sorting (natural selection = evolution).
Mutations are EXTREMELY COMMON like the many little shakes which sorted the nuts.
Once at a Creationist conference the head dickhead "disproved" evolution by pointing out that some molecule in haemoglobin requires something like 36 nucleotides and there are four different nucleotides. So he said the probablity of that molcule would be 1 in 4 to the power of 36, which is a FUCKING big number so evolution is improbable.
That day I understood that not only do creationist understand fuck all about the natural world, they suck at maths too.
It's a human belief system, but calling it a religion would be fucking English semantics in the arse.Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
Okay, so you believe in microevolution. Which is caused by mutations in DNA providing variety from which the most adapted forms can be selected to alter a species genetic pool; but you don't believe in macroevolution, which is caused by mutations in DNA providing variety from which the most adapted forms can be selected to alter the species genetic pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
Would you like to explain a natural mechanism which would prevent lots of microevolutions to compound into macroeveolution? Because what you are essentially saying is that if you can take a step, but you can't layer step upon step upon step to walk a mile.
Look in the mirror, you're a transitional form between your parents and your offspring. Every animal is a transitional form, but yeah, if you're looking for fossils of "shit half way between a hoofed mammal and a dolphin" yup, we've got it.Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
What are you babbling on about? Are you talking about Mitochondrial Eve?Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
Well, apart from a carrot being a root and apple being fruit (they're not really comparable parts of a plant)... I'll simplify it a bit and lets say an orange can't turn into a watermelon, the reason this can't happen is because according to evolution they both derived from a common fruit tree ancestor (a protofruit) and have since evolved individual traits.Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
The best way of explaining this is the dolphin, mammals evolved from a sea animal (like a fish) that eventually adapted to life on land with legs and lungs. Now, when the ancestor of the dolphin began living a semi-aquatic environment, it didn't evolve into a fish, the reason was that it had legs and lungs; when the common ancestor of mammals and fish did not. So, the through evolution the dolphin arranged it's mammalian respitory system to aquatic life (blowhole) and its front legs into flippers, tail into a fluke, and its hindlegs into little vestigal bones.
A good metaphor would be like getting two identical slabs of granite and telling the sculptor you want one statue of the male form and one of the female; and then after he finishes the sculptures, you telling him that you actually wanted two males statues. He won't be able to make two identical male statues because he's already modified the granite slab (women are smaller, and he's already chiselled away the granite reserved for a penis), so instead he must improvise and make do with the modified granite the female sculpture is made of.
I hope this helps.
Yeah... I'm not talking about physical love ("Eros", also known as "intercourse", also known as "fucking"), I'm talking about a deep seated action/behavior ("Agape", as in "I'll take a bullet for you, bro"). As for everything I've said being 'bullshit', well, I've yet to trash any religion so far ("trashing" being "_______ism SUX lol ________ism eetz dik itz bullSHIT!!! fuk u ______ist koksmaX ~_~). I've stated that I'm Christian, and that I disagree with other religions/worldviews, but I do respect them. And I have yet to call anyone names, nor laugh at them.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
I didn't expect to win any popularity points in saying that I'm saved by Christ... I'm not shocked at all that I've gotten the response I've gotten. However, we're autonomous. God gave you the free will to use... All I care to do is let whoever cares to hear (read?) that Jesus (Latin for Joshua) is incredible, and is the only for humanity to get to Heaven, to be with God. And that God does in fact care. If you really don't wanna be with God, hey, that's between you and Him. I'm not God, so that kinda takes judging people outta my hands... but I'd rather be with my Engineer rather than being tormented forever with shame and regret and anger for the choices I SHOULD'VE made....
I already deal with that shit on the daily here...
Well if you're talking about Platonic love, the evolutionary advantage is pretty obvious. If you're willing to "take a bullet" or "get your jugular slashed by a Sabretooth Tiger's canine" for the good of those you love (your tribe), you will help them survive (and with them, a close form of your genetic information). Love is very important for group dynamics, and group dynamics are very important when you're small ape-like dudes running around in a savannah where every turn there's shit that can kill you.Quote:
Originally Posted by prisoner38911301
I was laughing at your beliefs on evolution, not your belief in God.
Yeah, that part where god smited that city, and the one good guy ran out was pretty cool. His wife looked back and she turned to sand, so he went up to the hills, and his daughters got him drunk and banged him untill they got preggers.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
man, the bible would make an awesome hentai.
yeah, im going to wake up in hell tomarrow.
Well that is because of the holy trinity. Jesus was the foot to the Holy Voltron, you see.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift
Funny, I always thought Catholics were like that too. It really changes per protestant. Church christ people think you can lose your salvation by being sinful, while babtist, despite talking about hell all the time, think you are good to go the second you get out of the batism pool.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
I've always found the difference in batisem to be funny too. Protostants do it as a right of passage of sorts, and it has no meaning if the person doesn't ask for it themselves. While the Catholics treat it like a holy healing pool in an rpg that if you do it to someone, they are saved. Fuck personal choise, you got dunked, you are saved. After that point you do not really sin, you just have flaws in your personal character. This shit is out of your Catechismthingwhatever.
It's really awesome how god thinks like a man. "I do what I want, whateva"Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Meach
Yes, all life is based on incest according to Christianity. I figured this out in study hall in junior high I think.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelassassin
So God loves us so much that He created us to commune with Him forever, but it took Him all that time to come up with a plan to make us worthy after the Fall? And there was a place that was neither in the presence of God nor the pit of eternal suffering where souls could just hang out? So, why does God feel the need to eternally torment souls He has a disagreement with? He's the Creator, so let Him put them in the holding cell forever or - better yet - destroy them or put them to sleep for eternity. Really, I'd rather kill a child with a shot to the head than know evil men will skin him alive.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
Relax a little, Yahweh. Bend Your rules a little. You don't like us? Kill us. But the failure to make one instantaneous choice should not be punished by eternal damnation. The math does not add up for us. If it does in God's head, well good for Him, but we are talking about our souls and He has to accommodate that. I don't hold my child to the same standards I hold myself while she is a child.
No, they still needed faith in God, but it was a more general faith and a simpler, much more intuitive plan.Quote:
Nick, how exactly do you see people being more likely to go to hell after jesus died? please qoute the part in the old testiment where people were admitted into heaven for just good works and no faith in God?
Leviticus 17:11 - "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life."
And from Numbers 15 - "And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him."
Now, you have to accept one particular sacrifice that happened two thousand years ago. In Psalms it says that along with the Word, nature testifies to the greatness of the LORD. I see people much more likely to accept a great God and have faith in that than believe that a guy that lived in the Middle East twenty centuries ago was divine power made flesh.
It's just a bad system, and if God truly desires to save the greater part of humanity, He's doing a terrible job of it.
You are trying to explain a complicated system by introducing an infinitely more complicated one. God is infinitely more amazing than any of His creations or all of His creations taken together. To make an absurd example: if I eat out an entire week and all the food is good, I can theorize that my mom is secretly following me, running from restaurant to restaurant and cooking the meals I order. But why the hell would I? We explain more and more through science as our technology evolves and as we begin to shed the shackles of restrictive religious thought. Why do we need to keep clinging to the Mighty Ghost theory?Quote:
i tend to see the gradual change coming from said magical being, so its a synthesis of the 2, then i dont have life popping up magically from some theoretic chemical process , nor the very off timeline of the literal biblical interpretation.
God will say to the unsaved, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." That's pretty heavy stuff, and it sounds like He's using the same punishment for your cousin that only believes in smoking pot as He is for Jeffrey Dahmer and Ivan the Terrible. Oh, and for Satan.Quote:
I will add that its odd you see all punishments as equal, how do you know? . . .you take the bible very literaly for an athiest nick.
My take on the Bible doesn't matter that much. The more we learn, the more ridiculous the Bible looks and the more fanciful. non-literal interpretations come up. If "God is not the Author of confusion" and "holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," how are we not to take it a little literally?
And by introducing the Cross, God narrowed the window you can use to get into Heaven. He damned more people than homosexuality or murder or sexual deviance ever could. Not bad for an eternity's work.Quote:
you are held responsable for choices you make, if you choose to act a certian way you are held responsable for it, if you dont have the options to choose you cannot be held responsable can you?
That would be because He IS God. If you knew the Bible at all you'd know this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Swift
"In the beginning was the Word and the Word was with God and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All thing were made through Him and without Him nothhing was made that was made." John 1:1-3
Also read Colossians 1:15-18 and I John 5:7 to further understand why any Christian worth their salt calls Jesus, God. Moreover, Jesus Himself states that He and the Father are one in the same on several occassions.
The Godhead of the Christian faith is triune. The Father, The Son, and The Holy Ghost. Three individual beings who are one unit.
Tell you what, rather that making sweeping judgements about something you obviously know nothing about why don't you try reading the book?
Fuck all this, I want to be a Scientologist. So I can suck on Kristie Alley's big ole whale tits.
You forgot..Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
* No need to handover a "donation" every week.
* Significantly lower chance of Man on Boy Sodomy.
The Holy Voltron...Heh.
"Form Heaven And Earth!"
"Form Miracles and Cross Bearing!"
"And I'll Go Bang Mary!"
That's my queue:Quote:
Originally Posted by arjue
http://isotropic.org/uw/attic/jesus.jpg
I actually do believe in God. It's religion and the Church I don't have faith in anymore. There's a lot of good being done (helping third world countries, children, etc.) but every message seems preachy and forceful, almost looking down on their fellow man because they haven't come to understand or care for God and that's not their place at all. There's also a lot of corruption and trust built up that allows wolves to dress in sheeps clothing.
How the hell did this thread blow up to 5 pages?
I can't read all of that.
I have a question. What's the difference between Christianity and Catholisim (i know, I butched that)? I'm Catholic and have no idea what seperates them.
Catholisim is a form of christianity, that's church system reads likes communism. They believe in shit like, the church is right, because the church is right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpy
The only difference I know between the two is christians believe that the bread and wine are symbols of the body of christ, whereas catholics insist that it becomes the actual body and blood of christ.
I would say that catholic girls are easyer, but babtist girls give you head on in the back of the bus, on church trips.
AFriend2005: Hey, check out our thread about milk. Most of us go the way of the 2%, but some people (losers) go for the skim. What do you think about that, AFriend2005? Are they right, or am I right?
I hear jesus hates fanboys.
He loves mentos though.
The difference is that there is no difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rumpy
People talk about Catholocism and Christiantity like they are two different worlds of belief. The only real difference is the amount of weird religious dogma that Catholics are made to swallow.
Like the whole "Mary ascended into heaven" nonsense. Sorry but only two people have ever bodily ascended into heaven without dying. Enoch and Jesus.
Mary may have given birth to Jesus, but she was nothing more than a vessel to further a greater plan. God could've chosen any virgin, but He chose her. She just lucked out. The only claim to fame she has in the Bible is as the mother of God. Outside of that she's barely mentioned at all.
The only reason that Mary has such a large place in the Catholic faith is because back when Christianity was just starting out and believers were trying to convert pagans, they found that most of the religions practiced worshiped a goddess rather than a god. So Mary was substituted in for these goddesses.
"See? This woman is holy and special. She gave birth to God Himself!"
Unfortunately, over the last two millenia, this goofy ploy has turned Mary into something she never was. More than just a simple human female.
The fact that some people still call her "The Virgin Mary" is quite stupid. Jesus had several brothers and sisters.
Man it would ahve sucked being Jesus's brother.
"Why can't you be more like your brother, he makes such good grades, and never does anything wrong"
";_;"
Adam and Eve had more than two children you twit. Read the damn book.Quote:
Originally Posted by pixelassassin
Adam lived nine hundred and thirty years before he died and sired God knows how many children. Hell, he was one-hundred and thirty when Eve gave birth to Seth.
Who was Cain's wife? Obviously one of his sisters. Who else was there?
So if you want to get technical about it, the human race is just one big incest party. Which would explain why people are so retarded.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
The fact that believed in gods at all nullifies any "I didn't know". They believed in powers and deities beyond themselves and knew there was one "Great Spirit" without anyone having to tell them because the evidence was right in front of them. The whole of all creation.Quote:
Originally Posted by gamevet
Has anyone ever looked at nature and NOT said to themselves "Somebody had to make all this."?
God has made the evidence of His existence plain. They are without excuse.
I don't believe in God or any other fairy tales.
*raises hand*Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Only because your an Aussie.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
I too would like to raise my hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
Everyone should take a few Chemistry, Biology and Astronomy classes before they try to talk about what could and could not be made without the help of some "god".
OK, I have.
Now what? You can't prove/disprove a God. We use our five senses to substantiate what we 'know'. Who's to say that there isn't anything beyond those five senses?
Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
What?Quote:
Originally Posted by JoustWilliams
Dude, TREES.
Therefore god exists.
http://www.ribaldyouth.com/pics/tree.jpg
Yeah, we used to think that for life to be in existence there had to be such a certain balance of innumerable things that it was near impossible. Day by day though scientist are discovering that life might not be so rare as we once thought.
Just because the old notions become 'untrue' via scientific means doesn't disprove the existence of God. Whether it makes people more skeptical or not is irrelevant, really.
People will say "Oh, well there isn't a God" when humans are cloned. That doesn't disprove God.
Time waits for no one. So they say. It goes on forever.
The tears of pain I see in your eyes How can we change for the better?
Hate and greed`s getting stronger day by day Injustice rules the world Killing the lungs of the Earth How far are we prepared to go?
I have seen the Light. It came into my life. There´s no second chance. We should have learned by now. But it´s not too late to change the course. There´s so much more than this, oh Mother Gaia
Can you see, can you feel all the beauty that we have in this world? There´s so much to see, forever Ignorance, arrogance Keep us from being ourselves so we just follow our leaders - Why
Exactly, there is no way to dissprove god.
Yeah, but there is no scientific evidence showing that God exists.
There is however substantial scientific evidence to show that life and the universe could have been created without a "god".
God has never spoken to me, I've never seen him, and we wouldn't have ever needed him in order for me to be here right now. That's reason enough for me to believe that he probably isn't real.
Joust, just because you read it doesn't mean you understood it ;)
Of course.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
Yeah. There's a big difference between the physical world and sensation, but anything that has a physical impact on the world (i.e. if God changed stuff) would be detectable by eliminating all other variables, which is impossible in practice (especially if God moves in extremely subtle "mysterious ways).Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
"There is however substantial scientific evidence to show that life and the universe could have been created without a "god"."
Not really. Our ideas about these origins are changing all the time and scientists can't even agree on one at any given moment. Hardly compelling evidence. I'm not saying there is a God (why would I know that?), but we know so little.
"There's a big difference between the physical world and sensation, anything that has a physical impact on the world (i.e. if God changed stuff) it would be detectable by eliminating all other variables, which is impossible in practice (especially if God moves in extremely subtle "mysterious ways)."
If you could have the same thinking process and not have your senses, what would you think? Obviously a true hypothetical, but the point is that why stop at 5? Life didn't start with 5, why should it a) end there or b) be there right now on other planets far, far away?
We can't observe much even with our five senses, really. We only hypothesize about other planets based on the way the star near them wobbles. To do so takes a large planet really close to a star.
I think that a system as neat and perfect as maths is atleast a sign of grand design. To think that such a rule set randomly exists boggles my mind. I mean, what are the chances?
I think that if theres no god and this is all just a random fuck up, it makes everything much more beautiful. I dunno, its kinda hard to describe, it just has this romance to it.
That said, I'm completely agnostic.
Not changing, evolving. There is a difference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
Math is just logic applied to physical objects and ideas.Quote:
Originally Posted by arjue
It's only perfect because man made it that way.
"Not changing, evolving. There is a difference."
Well, if you can guarantee that they're closer to the truth, I suppose.
even so. Its hard for me to describe, but the sheer fact that 1 + 1 = 2 is quite amazing. meh, I'm just making myself look retarded.
I wouldn't call it amazing.
If I have a cell phone, and that's 1 item, and I hold it next to a ligher which is also 1 item, I have both a phone and a lighter which is now 2 items. There is nothing amazing about that, humans just gave it a name.
*also raises hand*Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
We're a species that specializes in creating things for our own use. We couldn't survive if we didn't. Thus, that's how we tend to view the universe... if something exists, it must have been created with intent.
Doesn't make it so, though. I can look at "the beauty of nature" and think that it had to be designed for it to be so beautiful, but then I can watch a praying mantis mate and then be eaten alive by the female and think "nah."
Then again, I've never been big on the concept of a higher purpose to existance. It's like trying to infer a narrative in a nature documentary... accept the images for what they are instead of trying to apply a greater meaning to it.
Shit works the way it does, because it does. If didn't work that way, it would work whatever way that other way is. Things all working together says shit about their being a god, it just means you live in reality.
Saying "omg all this stuff is so orderly, there must be a god" would be like me getting 4 boxes, putting them right together, and me throwing rocks into them, and then saying "well the rocks all went in the boxes, it all works together so well, there must be a god."
It works because it works, there is not an alternative where it doesn't fucking work. There is no purple fluffy other where cows fly for no fucking reason at all. If anything, such an unorderly world would prove there was a god, because it would take a being of great power to make a world of contradictions that worked. AND if you did live in a world where cows did fly, you would consider that the standard and still say shit like "man that is so orderely and exact."
Order does not prove the existence of God. If anything it helps disprove God.
Joust, I've already explained this before. Science uses aparatus to quantify and detect things beyond our senses, science is primarily not based on sensation (that's called empiricism, which is the basis of a limited amount of branches of science). If a scientist used his fingers to estimate the temperature of stuff in experiments, would it really be science? He's got a digital thermometer to do that and convert the temperature into a discrete number which can only be interpreted one way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
I can't see x-radiation, it's beyond my senses, but I have a nice little ionisation chamber that can detect x-radiation and convert it into a numerical representation that my senses can take in and not alter or interpret differently
It's impossible for something to have an impact on the physical world and not leave a footprint; there will always be one way of detecting it. It will be beyond our technology, not senses.
No...it doesn't do anything.
There is only one thing I know for sure...that I am alive. As weird as it sounds, it is true. I cannot guarantee anything else. I can make very good guesses, but that's it.
"I can't see x-radiation, it's beyond my senses, but I have a nice little ionisation temperature that can detect x-radiation and convert it into a numerical representation that my senses can take in and not alter or interpret differently"
Yes, and how do we go about creating such a thing? If we could not observe the effects of certain things upon other certain things, we would never create such instruments. Our senses, combined with our brainpower, drive our technology.
I <3 IronPlant.
We have invented tools to detect things that were not observable before such tools existed.
To make tools like that, though, you have to be able to observe some end result; otherwise, there's no way you could make the tool or even want to. So the point still is "Why would we be able to observe everything"?
Isn't there some sort of theory based upon quantum mechanics that says something along the lines of "something fails to exist until it is observed"?
Do you find something funny about the name Bigus Dickus?
Weird by your standards?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
[/QUOTE]
Like the whole "Mary ascended into heaven" nonsense. Sorry but only two people have ever bodily ascended into heaven without dying. Enoch and Jesus.[/QUOTE]
So how did Jesus die for your sins?
[/QUOTE]
"The only reason that Mary has such a large place in the Catholic faith is because back when Christianity was just starting out and believers were trying to convert pagans, they found that most of the religions practiced worshiped a goddess rather than a god. So Mary was substituted in for these goddesses." [/QUOTE]
Give this whole bit a good amount of thought. Then think about that shit where your ancestors became Christians because someone forced them to. Read a few books if you don't follow me on this. Maybe you'll see a problem with Christian ideaology here.
Why? Because they didn't interpret the universe the same way you do? By the way, every Christian I know celebrates Easter, and uses graven images of their gods. So, some gods/goddesses are okay, but only the ones white-skinned people use?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
You're pretty good at shouting about things you've been told about a lot but understand very little about.
Stwike him, Centuwion. Stwike him vewy wuffly!Quote:
Originally Posted by Hubbitron
Like the whole "Mary ascended into heaven" nonsense. Sorry but only two people have ever bodily ascended into heaven without dying. Enoch and Jesus.[/QUOTE]Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasteel
So how did Jesus die for your sins?
[/QUOTE]
"The only reason that Mary has such a large place in the Catholic faith is because back when Christianity was just starting out and believers were trying to convert pagans, they found that most of the religions practiced worshiped a goddess rather than a god. So Mary was substituted in for these goddesses." [/QUOTE]
Give this whole bit a good amount of thought. Then think about that shit where your ancestors became Christians because someone forced them to. Read a few books if you don't follow me on this. Maybe you'll see a problem with Christian ideaology here.
Why? Because they didn't interpret the universe the same way you do? By the way, every Christian I know celebrates Easter, and uses graven images of their gods. So, some gods/goddesses are okay, but only the ones white-skinned people use?
You're pretty good at shouting about things you've been told about a lot but understand very little about.[/QUOTE]
go quoting! Its that bad I can't even quote him properly.
Weird by the standards of pretty much anybody who can't figure out why Catholicism is treated like something other than a branch of Christianty. All that nonsense about "the one true Church".Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasteel
Died, ressurected then ascended. Try reading what I said next time.Quote:
So how did Jesus die for your sins?
I said the only two people to ascend bodily (meaning physically) into heaven were Enoch and Jesus. Jesus literally rose into the heavens. God just took Enoch.
Last time I checked there was no Spanish Inquisistion or Crusades in Africa.Quote:
Give this whole bit a good amount of thought. Then think about that shit where your ancestors became Christians because someone forced them to. Read a few books if you don't follow me on this. Maybe you'll see a problem with Christian ideaology here.
I'm fully aware of my faith's bloody and ugly history.
Do you even know what the hell you're talking about? I sure don't.Quote:
Why? Because they didn't interpret the universe the same way you do? By the way, every Christian I know celebrates Easter, and uses graven images of their gods. So, some gods/goddesses are okay, but only the ones white-skinned people use?
And what's with this stupid focus on skin-color? You think Jesus is a white-man's god? Pull your head out of your ass.
There is so much irony in that statement.Quote:
You're pretty good at shouting about things you've been told about a lot but understand very little about.
lol, Jesus wasn't white. He looked like a NY cabi.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Actually, he looked like a jew. Can you guess why?Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
No, by my way of thinking Jesus isn't a god. Men aren't gods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
However, like I said, do a little reading. You might learn that Easter is indeed a European god(dess). You might also learn a little bit about the symbol of the cross and how it came to be a religious icon in a faith explicitly against such. And the origins of that whole virgin birth thing. So Christians CAN honor European gods, but Native Americans are damned for honoring their own? And just what makes you an authority on what is and isn't "excusable" to God?
Yeah, the Greeks called him Zeus.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
I agree, except that Jesus wasn't just a man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasteel
Pffftt. Oh please, ALL Christian holidays are derived in some form or another from pagan celebrations. And the goddess' name was Eastre, not Easter.Quote:
However, like I said, do a little reading. You might learn that Easter is indeed a European god(dess).
Wow Google is such a wonderful tool, thanks Constantine.Quote:
You might also learn a little bit about the symbol of the cross and how it came to be a religious icon in a faith explicitly against such.
News flash, bub. I am not Catholic so the whole "immaculate conception" and all the drama that surrounded it doesn't concern me.Quote:
And the origins of that whole virgin birth thing.
Christians have commandeered other pagan rituals and festivals and made them their own. This is not the same as honoring foreign gods.Quote:
So Christians CAN honor European gods, but Native Americans are damned for honoring their own?
*Hands Vasteel a Bible*Quote:
And just what makes you an authority on what is and isn't "excusable" to God?
Read it you might learn something.
So what do think about your heathen animist ancestors who are in hell right now? Thank God all those good white folks captured your ancestors, taught them theism, and then gave them a little bit of work to keep the busy; think about the trouble you'd be in now if those lovely white folks didn't save you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
Because anything that causes a change is obviously observable to some degree.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
[QUOTE=Master of 7s]
Pffftt. Oh please, ALL Christian holidays are derived in some form or another from pagan celebrations. And the goddess' name was Eastre, not Easter.
O'ustre, actually.
Wow Google is such a wonderful tool, thanks Constantine.
I was thinking more along the lines of Celticism.
Isn't every Christian honoring a foreign god?
And here lies my problem with most Christians: they automatically assume that the clerics who wrote their canon are infallible. Morever, the interpretations of men taken as fact without basis in the Bible: At no point in the text does Jesus declare himself a deity. The use of iconography. The absolute disregard for dietary restrictions. Killing. The Sabbath. The list goes on, and on. But primarily, the assumption that other faiths cannot validly co-exist, which in my humble opinion, is the EXCLUSIVE PRIVILEGE of God in the Bible. You, nor any other person for that matter, has the authority to declare Native American or any other belief system invalid or wrong. Furthermore, you (read that Bible) lack the authority to declare God's judgement.
These books might be interesting for you:
The Zend Avesta , by Zarathustra
The Histories of Josephus Flavius (if you can read Latin, as the English translations are censored)
The Religion of the Ancient Celts by J.A. MacCulloch
The Book of Enoch and the other Dead Sea Scrolls
The Apochrypha
The Torah, Talmud, and Q'uran
A Field Guide to Demons, Devils, Fallen Angels, and Other Subversive Spirits by Carol and Diane Mack
and any histories of the Essene tribe that you can find.
I took an astronomy class in high school. The teacher had us do this enormous mathematical equation regarding our own solar system to show us how vast and large and big the universe is, and then he told us to throw all our days work in the trashcan because it's all shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
He said we're still the equivalent of cavemen looking through the telescope, developing hypothesis and certainties we have no clue about. Good advice.
Plus our 5 senses aren't the only five senses that exist. Bats, ants and other animals have different senses than our own, or modified ones.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
You ever wonder about the smells, you can't smell, the colors you can't see, and the notes you can't hear?
(and i hope you know, nick, i find you personally responsable for me not having time to level my defender to level 20 in city of heroes tonight :p )Quote:
Originally Posted by Nick
god is not tormenting souls he had a disagreement with, god is allowing those with the free will to reject him to have their wish. those who are subject to hell are those who have had the choice to follow god and have used their free will to reject that. beyond that your post got very odd, care to repost that without the killing a child and evil men skinning them, , i can tell you have passion, but dont let that totally overshadow clarity.
ah some clarity, how is the choice instantaneous? one lives and learns over time, if one remains hardened against god and decides to ignore gods word, its hardly a split second question, its one brought about by a lifetime of experience.why does God have to accomidate anything? we have free will, we can use it to seek the truth, or we can reinforce our pride and continue to dwell in ignorance, both are our own choices.Quote:
Relax a little, Yahweh. Bend Your rules a little. You don't like us? Kill us. But the failure to make one instantaneous choice should not be punished by eternal damnation. The math does not add up for us. If it does in God's head, well good for Him, but we are talking about our souls and He has to accommodate that. I don't hold my child to the same standards I hold myself while she is a child.
spare me the talk of your child, i am talking of grown men and women who choose their own beleifs, and accept the results of their choices. If you choose to follow Jesus you have faith that he exists, that he is the correct God to follow out of the options that are out there, and that His words ring true to your ears, then you accept the results of that. If these do not ring true to you, then go forth and beleive that, but you were offered jesus, it was your choice to not accept.
having read of the old testament and new testament i challenge you to really show me why a carpainter who talked of nonviolence, loveing neighbors and giving comfort to the sick is harder to follow than a God who randomly asks for people to sacrifce their kids as tests of faith. nor some nebulous God that nobody actually understands anything about.Quote:
No, they still needed faith in God, but it was a more general faith and a simpler, much more intuitive plan.
Leviticus 17:11 - "For the life of the flesh is in the blood: and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls: for it is the blood that maketh atonement by reason of the life."
And from Numbers 15 - "And if any soul sin through ignorance, then he shall bring a she goat of the first year for a sin offering. And the priest shall make an atonement for the soul that sinneth ignorantly, when he sinneth by ignorance before the LORD, to make an atonement for him; and it shall be forgiven him."
Now, you have to accept one particular sacrifice that happened two thousand years ago. In Psalms it says that along with the Word, nature testifies to the greatness of the LORD. I see people much more likely to accept a great God and have faith in that than believe that a guy that lived in the Middle East twenty centuries ago was divine power made flesh.
It's just a bad system, and if God truly desires to save the greater part of humanity, He's doing a terrible job of it.
furthermore,in both cases you bring me quotes saying that the sacrifices would have atoned for sins it says nothing about any admission into the fullness of heaven in either example. I repeat that before jesus came, no one entered the fullness of heaven. the cleansing of sins was important as a ritual washing but it did not grant any truer insight into the will an nature of God, that came only following the teachings of Christ.
so no, there was no easier access into heaven before the coming of Jesus, just placeholders and rituals.
Ah, i love this one, the faith of every athiest, that we will shed more light on reality and magically banish God through sicentific inquiry. I always find this one funny because it is an admission that you really dont have the evidence yet, but gosh darn it, you know that one day science will give it to you, all i have to say is, brother you shame me with your faith, i dont have that much . Its also a silly argument, the concept of God is not one that will ever be scientificly proven or disproven, those who wish to disbeleive in god already have enough "evidence" to give them solice, and those who beleive will continue to come up with new adaptations of faith to work with the newest sceince, but both are wasting their time, until we get a full operational definition of god, i mean a full, absolute and irrefutable operational definition, then its all just posturing for both sides to try to puff up their chests and say nothing.Quote:
You are trying to explain a complicated system by introducing an infinitely more complicated one. God is infinitely more amazing than any of His creations or all of His creations taken together. To make an absurd example: if I eat out an entire week and all the food is good, I can theorize that my mom is secretly following me, running from restaurant to restaurant and cooking the meals I order. But why the hell would I? We explain more and more through science as our technology evolves and as we begin to shed the shackles of restrictive religious thought. Why do we need to keep clinging to the Mighty Ghost theory?
for one thing, when did smoking pot become a sin? for another, it describes only where the unsaved are sent to, a place that god forsakes and one with fire, which seems to be used more as a description of the undesireableness of the place then its actual physical constitution. as i asked before, do heaven or hell actually have physical locations beign that theya re places of spiritual location. what would fire do to a nonphysical being? answer me these before we can get into the size and practices of hell. it gives no other information on it, you assume its one size fits all punishment, but that is an assumption that you come to yourself, you dont really have backing on that one from this quote.Quote:
God will say to the unsaved, "Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels." That's pretty heavy stuff, and it sounds like He's using the same punishment for your cousin that only believes in smoking pot as He is for Jeffrey Dahmer and Ivan the Terrible. Oh, and for Satan.
My take on the Bible doesn't matter that much. The more we learn, the more ridiculous the Bible looks and the more fanciful. non-literal interpretations come up. If "God is not the Author of confusion" and "holy men spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost," how are we not to take it a little literally?
and furthermore, who said i belived that God was not the author of confusion, perhaps sometimes we are challenged to figure things out ourselves, i beleive that the bible holds the guide for spiritual truth, not that its one hundred percent as it is written, humans use allegory and metaphore, i dont see why god is prohibited.
as stated before it was not stated that people pre-jesus got into heaven. God has not sent a single person into hell, he sent a way for people to come into the fullness of his presence in heaven. those who chose not to claim it, chose their own path.Quote:
And by introducing the Cross, God narrowed the window you can use to get into Heaven. He damned more people than homosexuality or murder or sexual deviance ever could. Not bad for an eternity's work.
and if the only way of observing said phenomena is through said tool, how do you know it works? It reminds me of the old joke of the guy who buys a useless trinket that he calls a giraffe repellent, his friend reminds him that there are no giraffes in the area, so the guy takes it as proof that the trinket works.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
secnd vers same as the first, if you dont have the oppertinity to learn of jesus, you are not held responsable for rejecting him, hell is for those who have actively rejected the salvation of jesus, not those who have never had the oppertunity ot learn of him in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
and, here we go again, youc an observe a change without correctly guessing what causes said change, plus, if the change is subtle enough, or foreign enough to current scientific paradigms, if may be wholely mislabled. you woudl do well to recall that after a succesful experiment, you do not say that you have proven this or that, just that the experiment failed to disprove the null hypothesis, that there was no effect. You seem to beleive in a more flashy and dynamic science than actually exists, rather than the gradual compiliation of experiments that gives us our current knowledge base.
secnd vers same as the first, if you dont have the oppertinity to learn of jesus, you are not held responsable for rejecting him, hell is for those who have actively rejected the salvation of jesus, not those who have never had the oppertunity ot learn of him in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
and, here we go again, you can observe a change without correctly guessing what causes said change, plus, if the change is subtle enough, or foreign enough to current scientific paradigms, if may be wholely mislabled. you would do well to recall that after a succesful experiment, you do not say that you have proven this or that, just that the experiment failed to disprove the null hypothesis, that there was no effect. You seem to beleive in a more flashy and dynamic science than actually exists, rather than the gradual compiliation of experiments that gives us our current knowledge base.
If you enjoy that, I have a Mother Goose book you should read.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master of 7s
again, thats quite a bold statement, i wonder how many actual scientists would agree with that statement. I would add that it might be more than just beyond our technology, but also our knowlege base, you have to have a pretty good idea what to look for before you can look for it in any valid way,and the progression of our knowlege is less a straight and linear progression than one of slow, gradual refinement of theory with occasional fortunate leaps of theory that allow us to expand our knowlege base and sometimes entirely collapse the gradual theory we were looking at and make us start from square one in a new direction. but our knowlege base can only expand after someone has the intital thought outside of the box.Quote:
Originally Posted by AstroBlue
is it really that simple? I don't think anyone who believes in jesus chooses to not fallow him. People that don't belive have simply not been given enough reason to do so. And since they do not belive, they won't have faith in, and fallow jesus.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
You say they were offered, but how can they be offered something they don't believe exist?
Can you accept something you don't consider real in the first place?
How can people make a choice, when they don't believe in the things the choice is about?
Okay, question:
I understand the concept of hell (not the "Dante's Inferno" style, but the whole "eternity away from God" thing).
Alright. Fair enough.
So if death isn't the end, most of our existence is on a spiritual level for eternity, and God allows us to choose our own path... why are our actions in life the only determining factor in whether we go to heaven or hell? What if, after death, we decide that we really do want to spend eternity with God and we want to accept Jesus as our savior?
It seems to me that if God is all forgiving, he would allow people to atone for their sins in life after life. Instead he says "the choices you made in the first 70 years of your existence determine where you're going to spend the rest of eternity, and if you decide to come around later, too bad."
Yes it really is that simple. if a person does not beleive in Jesus, the question is why? what about them makes a pacifist who tells you to love your neighbor and not to worry so much about physical things so difficult to beleive in? Humans have the capability to belive in anything that they learn and feel is correct, if they dont feel that jesus' teachings are correct, why dont they? these are really questions for the individual to ask themselves in this case, but yes, in the end you and you alone decide what you belive is true.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
I want someone to answer me this:
Noah had the Arc, yes? Well the Earth floods, him and his wife along with their children and their childrens spouses collect two of every animal on Earth and board the Arc to survive the flood. If what I understand is true, they are the only survivors. Now, ignoring the impossibility of loading all of the billions of types of animals into one ship, I want to target the fact that all man kind would have to be decendants of Noah and his family. Now how, exactly, did Noah's family produce Black, Asain, Caucasian and Hispanic people? Where did all these different races come from?
I'm listening.
very good question, dont have any answer for that. it could very well be that way, or it coudl not, again ti comes back to what was going on in the 70 or so years of your waking life that precluded you from beleiving then? as i have said countless times here, i dont beleive that God sends you to either heaven or hell, if you follow the path that jesus taught, you are reorienting yourself, away from physical things and toward spiritual concerns. and to a degree if you turn away from his teachings and embrace the physical only, then could you ever truely find peace in heaven? Its something to think about, but there is really no answer for it (nor really is there for any of the topics discussed here, you beleive what you beleive,and nothing said here will change anyone who did not already wish to change anyhow, its just an exchange of ideals).Quote:
Originally Posted by sethsez
His teachings are irrelvant to my statement. If you tell me a purple bunny with horns told you it was wrong to rape dogs, I can accept that is wrong to rape dogs without believeing you really saw a purple bunny with horns that can talk.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
Other than faith in one's family and past society, no one really has any reason to believe in the biblical God. There are no magical wonderious things done in this day and age that have Jesus's John Handcock written on them.
Yeah, weird shit happens, but there is no calling card, nothing saying "hey yo, its me, your buddy jesus, lets go play street fighter and eat cookies."
a localised flood could have seemed like the entire world was flooded if there was no land seen, the scope of the flood only needed to be as large as could be observed,kind of overkill to flood china to teach a lesson in the middle east.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
next?
So what you're saying is, the people who wrote the Bible wrote about a worldwide flood when it wasn't a world wide flood? They were wrong? They wrote something that was in fact not true, but to them seemed like reality?Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
And anyone is supposed to believe anything else in that book?
then thats how you choose to see it. part of following jesus is having faith, if a person dosent have that, than thats something they have chosen not to have.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
I always took this theory as a way for the Churches to bring order over the people. Warning them that not behaving will send them to Hell was a white lie that everyone just seemed to believe. Kind of like how you tell a kid he won't get any presents from Santa if he stays up all night, when Santa's got nothing to do with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by sethsez
it was a flood as wide as their world, its not incorrect as far as it went. It was in fact as true as it needed to be, what point would there have been of flooding new zealand for the sins of people in the middle east?Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
faith is not a choice. Not real faith.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
splainQuote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
As true as it needed to be? I don't know if that should be good enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
What if Jesus didn't really turn water into wine, but rather he used water and grapes to make wine and it took a wile for it to ferment. But, in the bible, he does it really quick because that's how they chose to write it. But hey, it was in fact as true as it needed to be. What if God never spoke to Moses, but it made it easier for him to lead people if he told them that God did, and the people that wrote the bible never knew of his lies. Would that also be as true as it needed to be?
If anything in the Bible is wrong, even based on perception, the whole thing has reason to be brought into question.
the wine thing took place during a wedding, kind of hard to ferment wine that fast, as for the moses thing given that moses is shown speaking directly to god, then its kind of hard to equivocate. Im with you that every part can and should be brought into question, provided one comes to it with an open enough mind to actually attempt to seek answers, rather than to just justify their preconceptions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Opaque
Well why would you even believe that wedding happened? Why would you believe Moses even existed? Just because it's in the Bible? We just proved that just because something is in the Bible doesn't mean it's true or even real.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
And don't say faith, becuase you didn't believe in God before a preacher, or your parents or the Bible told you about him. If no one ever told you about God, you wouldn't believe in him right now, and the only reason anyone told you about him is because of the Bible. You believe in God because of a book that contains hyperbole and mixed facts.
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Mman
faith - Belief that does not rest on logical proof or material evidenceQuote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
In nature it has nothing to with the physical, and the arguments that come from it. Meaning that faith comes from inside, or from God. It comes either from the passion of the soul and/or heart, or by the devine will of God.
EDIT: Can I get a raise of hands of all the athiest who have felt god and chose to not believe in him. How about a show of hands of athiest who have felt god in some way or the other.
Now can I get a show of hands from christnas who have felt God in some way, and that turned them down their path of faith.
Re Opaque:
We all know the Bible is preposterous.
Penn & Teller did this thread already... they don't need your help.
If that's the route your taking then the ankh is where you should start.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vasteel
"I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End" says the Lord "Who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty." Rev 1:8Quote:
At no point in the text does Jesus declare himself a deity.
"Do not be afraid. I am the First and the Last. I am He who lives and was dead and behold I am alive forevermore. Amen. And I have the keys of Hades and Death." Rev 1:17-18
"I and My Father are one" John 10:30
I don't need to declare other belief systems invalid, Jesus said it plainly enough that He is the ONLY way into heaven, period. He is the Way, the Truth, and the Life and no one gets to the Father except through Him.Quote:
You, nor any other person for that matter, has the authority to declare Native American or any other belief system invalid or wrong.
I declare only what is written, bub. God's Word says there is no excuse for not knowing of God becuase the evidence of His existence is everywhere.Quote:
Furthermore, you (read that Bible) lack the authority to declare God's judgement.
"For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, because what may be know of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them.
For since the creation of the world, His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead so that they are without excuse," Romans 1:18-20
This passage is talking specifically about the Jews during the days of Exodus, but is still applicable today. God has shown Himself to exist, but people are spirtually blind.
I've never seen an atom or a molecule so why should I believe they exist?
I've read these.Quote:
The Book of Enoch and the other Dead Sea Scrolls
The Apochrypha
any histories of the Essene tribe that you can find.
At any rate I don't why I keep getting caught up in these pointless debates.
You are never going to sway me or my faith (I seen too much and too many of God's works to be rattled by worthless intellectualism) and I'm not going to change your mind about anything anyway. Let's just agree to disagree and be done with this.
See, this is the thing... it'd be really nice to have an afterlife and spend all of eternity with a feeling of immeasurable joy... but I don't believe that it's reality. What Christians don't seem to get about those of us who don't believe is that we don't automatically hate the ideas of Christianity. The whole concept of heaven sounds pretty awesome. It just doesn't sound true. We're not saying "well, God's a twat and I'll ignore him," we're saying that we don't believe there is a God (at least in the Christian sense) at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
I believe Jesus existed. I believe some of his teachings are incredibly important. I believe he was crucified. I do not, however, believe that he was really the son of God, nor do I believe he ascended to heaven.