So, I join Nick

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

Everything you've said has been fairly well reasoned with the exception of the above. I'm not leaving my wife FOR the 20 year old - the 20 year old happens to be there. I've been considering this *for years*, not for the sake of banging some cute chick and suddenly feeling like I'm on top of the world. This has been very, very long in the making and much of it through actions and deeds that were initiated by my wife. I could go into great detail here, but it wouldn't serve much of a purpose. And, yes, I understand there's a child involved and counseling seems to make perfect sense to you because of that. However, I'm sure you've had girlfriend's that you've been serious with before and maybe were considering marrying - a single event can change an entire relationship without hope of ever repairing it. Let's say your significant other had sex with someone else while being committed to you - would you go to counseling or tell the bitch to get fucking lost? My wife didn't do this, afaik, but I'm trying to give you an example of where counseling serves no purpose because you can't overcome whatever feelings you might have. I, for one, would never be able to trust that partner again and that single event would move the relationship to the "dead phase" and I would not consider counseling in that event. I think other events can lead to a similar outcome, wherein you know in your heart of hearts that you cannot go back.

And, making the decision to leave a child does require a certain kind of courage and too many people stay married for the sake of the child and rear the kid in a hostile, loveless, miserable environment because they are too chicken shit to split and do the right thing.

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No, it's just really convenient for you now so in essence it's true. And what does your example of a wife screwing someone else have to do with your situation? Nothing. I'm aware there are deal breakers, painfully aware; not having a good talking or fucking relationship is not one of them though. I'm not even saying "try to save your marriage", I'm saying "don't do anything to make it worse and try doing something that will make it better". Saying 'no' to an instant relationship during your marriage, separation or divorce proceedings would take real courage in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Scourge

Saying 'no' to an instant relationship during your marriage, separation or divorce proceedings would take real courage in my opinion.

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I definitely agree with this. No matter what the situation actually is, if you run off with OMG LOVE OF YOUR LIFE 20 year old now, it's going to look like you left your wife for someone half your age to anyone on the outside, including your daughter.

It would be better for everyone involved if you waited a bit after the divorce to get everything settled before you get into another relationship.

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Originally Posted by Scourge

No, it's just really convenient for you now so in essence it's true. And what does your example of a wife screwing someone else have to do with your situation? Nothing. I'm aware there are deal breakers, painfully aware; not having a good talking or fucking relationship is not one of them though. I'm not even saying "try to save your marriage", I'm saying "don't do anything to make it worse and try doing something that will make it better". Saying 'no' to an instant relationship during your marriage, separation or divorce proceedings would take real courage in my opinion.

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It's "convenient"? My example has to do with something that's broken and can't be fixed - which is something that you can't see beyond. I don't see what difference in can possibly make to "wait" or how that's somehow being courageous - it's immaterial. Would it be more noble if I waited a year and then dated? For who's sake? I certainly wouldn't flaunt that shit in front of my wife, my kids, or anyone else. Furthermore, there's nothing "instant" about it - I've known this girl for over a year and didn't do anything with her at all during the course of my marriage.

And, "abandonment" (part of the "fucking relationship" theory) is grounds for divorce in every state in the United States - so it's obviously a serious enough issue that the law takes it as a legal ground by which to obtain a divorce.

Still, I understand what you're saying.

I'll summarize here just to make abundantly clear that I'm not being one sided about this:

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Originally Posted by Scourge

A bad relationship can be a lot worse on the kid than the divorce. Your daughter is six now, so she'll be confused, but she's young enough that in the future she'll probably adjust really well. It sounds like your relationship with your wife really just hit a brick wall...

Since there is a kid involved, I'd recommend counseling. You fell in love with your wife for a reason and maybe with an intermediary, there's some hope of rediscovering what that reason was. At the very least, you'd have gone the extra mile to try to save things, and in doing so you'll open up a line of communication that sounds like it's been closed for a long time now, if it ever was open.

My problem with the 20 year old thing is that everybody prior to me in this thread was like OMGWTFJUMPONIT!!!!!11 It's a lot more delicate situation than that no matter how long haoh's been "internally" dealing with his situation.

And hey, what's the harm in him and his wife getting counseling and seeing if it works? None. If he fucks a 20 year old to expediate his separation, which he said it would, then he wouldn't be giving it his all to try to fix his marriage and having fucked that 20 year old would ruin a lot of the possiblility of an amicable split, or especially any kind of reconciliation. This isn't about haoh and his wife, it's about the kid.

Yeah, it's been a long, downward spiral, but I have to wonder if he's had an honest face-to-face with his wife to really talk this stuff out. It would help, even if it didn't save anything. Clearing the air can do wonders. And as far as counseling goes, having an intermediary there provides a detached third party with an outside perspective that could help either the separation process, or possibly help the marriage out itself.

It seems to me you've already got it figured out, and that's because you've already started a relationship elsewhere that gives you what you feel is missing in your marriage, so why bother, right? I have a feeling in few years you might realize that you handled things in a pretty fucked up manner. Yeah, that's worded harshly and I'm still trying not to pass judgment, but it's really easy to ignore reality in the midst of it because something that feels really good, can't possibly be all that bad, right?

I'm aware there are deal breakers, painfully aware; not having a good talking or fucking relationship is not one of them though. I'm not even saying "try to save your marriage", I'm saying "don't do anything to make it worse and try doing something that will make it better". Saying 'no' to an instant relationship during your marriage, separation or divorce proceedings would take real courage in my opinion.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

The relationship dying doesn't bother me nearly as much as the traumatic effect that this will have on my daughter, who's probably the happiest kid on the planet. Life can really, REALLY fucking suck sometimes.

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She'll be glad you did the right thing later. Take the time to see her all the time. But no kid wants to live in a home where the parents shouldn't be together. She probably won't take it well at first, but she will understand eventually.

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Originally Posted by haohmaru

It's "convenient"? My example has to do with something that's broken and can't be fixed - which is something that you can't see beyond. I don't see what difference in can possibly make to "wait" or how that's somehow being courageous - it's immaterial. Would it be more noble if I waited a year and then dated? For who's sake? I certainly wouldn't flaunt that shit in front of my wife, my kids, or anyone else. Furthermore, there's nothing "instant" about it - I've known this girl for over a year and didn't do anything with her at all during the course of my marriage.

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You keep saying it can't be fixed, but you haven't done everything to try. And neither has she. That's where a detached third party is helpful - it helps the both of you see things that you just can't possibly see on your own.

And I don't care how long you've known this girl, the fact that when you finally had the "courage" to leave your wife you immediately had a convenient fill in to help you through the emotional and physical longing, is to me selfish. I'm not expecting martyrdom, I'm just saying that regardless of how things look to you, you are unable to have a clearheaded, objective opinion of the situation. Sorry.

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Originally Posted by Scourge

You keep saying it can't be fixed, but you haven't done everything to try. And neither has she. That's where a detached third party is helpful - it helps the both of you see things that you just can't possibly see on your own.

And I don't care how long you've known this girl, the fact that when you finally had the "courage" to leave your wife you immediately had a convenient fill in to help you through the emotional and physical longing, is to me selfish. I'm not expecting martyrdom, I'm just saying that regardless of how things look to you, you are unable to have a clearheaded, objective opinion of the situation. Sorry.

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Yeah, I agree with that - however, I don't think it's easy to have a "clearheaded, objective opinion" about matters of the heart regardless of circumstance. Even with a 3rd party listening in to our respective opinions and then offering steps to reconciliation doesn't make the 3rd party's opinion RIGHT. How can one assess "love" or lack thereof unless that person is the one in question? I think a 3rd party could untangle some of the mess and offer solutions to make the relationship better, but I don't think the 3rd party could make me love my wife again.

And, yes, it's definitely selfish to go into something else without having resolved this - I can't argue that at all. I don't think you can effectively put things on hold, however, when strong feelings are mutually shared for any length of time. The shit just happens, even if you try to stop it.

haoh - You need to at least give a marriage counselor a try. If you're a religious guy, the pastor or whatever at your local church/temple/etc. is fully qualified to help and/or make recommendations. You will be two zillion times better a person for having tried. Your wife may not even want to try, even if she is taking your daughter's feelings into account. Even if that's the case, then you HAVE tried everything possible.

Even though I was 19 at the time, if my parents hadn't tried a marriage counselor with the intent of saving the marriage, I would definitely not look up to them now. As it turned out with them, a few years apart helped them realize how much they actually did care about and need one another. They'll be getting remarried this summer.

=/ love is not a thing that can be fixed when broken.

Love is more like a really good chocolate cake and not a car. Once it goes bad, that's it.

Though, counseling is still a good idea. It will set a good example for you kid, and really show you tried everything.

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=/ love is not a thing that can be fixed when broken.

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Because you're such a knowledgable source aye?