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Originally Posted by Gohron
Ok let me rephrase my point so its not so general and sweeping and even lets in a ridiculous argument like comparing the Middle East bullshit to Europe's bullshit.
There will be no peace in the Middle East as long as we are there trying to impose it. We will never stop being a target.
I think we've made considerable progress in face of all the opposition. Would you say we've gotten nothing done?
It doesn't I guess, because its a stupid comparison. I don't believe Peace over there is possible, I'll stand by it. Partly because I know we are the reason for the turmoil in the first place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Eh don't start that one. It sure beats acting impulsively at the cost of human lives.Quote:
Then you must spend your days lost in thought because you never act. Now that I found out I'm not a Republican or a Democrat, I can insult you both. This is great.
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Originally Posted by Mike
A man with reason.
You can continue to be pessimistic about the Middle East but I think it could definately go either way, this isn't the 80's anymore.
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Originally Posted by Mike
No I wouldn't. But I will say we have done as much good as bad.
I will also say we will never be able to finish it. We are like a giant bullseye standing in the middle of the desert. To a lot of the population we are viewed as no different from dictators trying to impose their will and their way of life on them, just one more manager filling the vacant management position. I also believe we do not hear about half of what is going wrong over there.
We are going to overextend ourselves eventually, and it will bring about a lot of problems that haven't even been considered.
But hey, thats just me. You guys think we are on the right course, thats why you voted him back in.
How do you know it?Quote:
Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy
Abu Ghraib is not the same as killing people and it certainly doesn't negate the good we've done. Besides, what, aside from Abu Ghraib, did we do that was bad? We pulled Hussein out of power, that was a good thing even if some feel it was not justified, and now we're working to eliminate the insurgents when the Iraqi people turned out in record numbers to vote (read: telling the insurgents to get out).Quote:
No I wouldn't. But I will say we have done as much good as bad.
That sounds like positive stuff to me.
Yeah, like a lot of the good stuff we don't hear about. The kinda shit that made the one Lance Corporal I met get back to Iraq as soon as he learned to walk again (with a prothstetic) after losing the bottom part of his left leg. Or like the kinda stuff that made the Corporal go back even though he had a wife and kids and had already been there for a year.Quote:
Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy
A lot of our guys are passionate about winning that war and I've met a shitload of people who have been in the hotspots like the Al Anbar province, have seen their friends die and have killed and they don't have much bad things to say about the country.
The arms deals cut in the eighties, the betrayal and abandonment of Osma Bin Laden ( I have not sympahty for him, but don't deny the truth, we helped him in Afghanastan in the 80's), the general idea of Western Freedom being looked down on in these countries.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike
Sorry Mike, but you ask the question as if you are befuddled as to why they hate us?
Hmm ok, lying to start the war in the first place. Using Napalm in city/residential areas. Going in their understaffed. Getting half the world angry at us.Quote:
Abu Ghraib is not the same as killing people and it certainly doesn't negate the good we've done. Besides, what, aside from Abu Ghraib, did we do that was bad?
All of that comes before The prison scandel.
Hey good for them. But if you think in five years if we were to pull out of their entirely they'd last more than ten without being taken over by another dictator, then your crazy.Quote:
We pulled Hussein out of power, that was a good thing even if some feel it was not justified, and now we're working to eliminate the insurgents when the Iraqi people turned out in record numbers to vote (read: telling the insurgents to get out).
That sounds like positive stuff to me.
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Originally Posted by Gohron
You could say that. The difference between you and me is, I think thats sad.
A lot of guys were passionate about Vietnam, and in the end, they got a nice wall built for em.
The big differance between Iraq and Vietnam is that we don't have leadership in place now that is too fucking scared to fight a war. If you ever study Vietnam history it's pretty depressing, our guys would fight like hell to take a hill, take the hill and leave and have to take back that same hill later in that week because we didn't fight like we should've. I've come to think that our government was just in Vietnam to kill off our boys serving in our military but I have no idea why they would do this.Quote:
Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy
In Iraq we're rooting the bad guys out, we're fighting them on our terms (for the most part) and not just reacting to a bunch of moves they throw at us. It may be a long process but we're not just fucking around there, we're actually fighting to accomplish something.
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Originally Posted by Gohron
Yes. I compare the too for only one reason though. There is no end in sight. If we pull out, we will fail, because Iraq will fall to the insurgents. If we stay, we will create the same meat grinder that Vietnam became.
I have a big emotional tie to Vietnam (just about all of my mom's side of the family died in that war), and I have an anger for war in general that I will never get over. Iraq is nonsensical enough to fall into the category to me. What makes me angry about the whole thing is people still believe this war is being fought because of Terrorism.
They still believe our boys in Iraq are dying to fight the terrorists that attacked us.
The only thing that pisses me off more than them dying, is for twisting the reasons as to why they are dying.
Look at the polls. Something like 60% of Americans believe Iraq had something to do with 9/11, and 50% believe they have weapons of mass destruction pointed at us.
*my numbers could be way off, I read those polls before the election, but I do know its enough of a disparity to really boggle the mind about how many people bother to find out the truth about things in this country...