And how, exactly, do you know the truth?
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And how, exactly, do you know the truth?
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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy
I understand that but I've always been a firm supporter of the war and never really believed any of those things. At least not for the reasoning of the war, I believe it to be very possible that there was WMD and they were moved/destroyed at the start of the war but I also believe it very possible that there wasn't any. As in links to terrorism? Nah, but we're killing plenty of them now after we drew them all out in the open to a foriegn country.
I always felt that this point is a weak argument because even if we are fighting the terrorists on foreign soil, it's not stopping other terrorists from planning to execute attacks on our soil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gohron
It still justifies the fact that our government says we're combatting terrorism. It's only a matter of time before we catch some big cats like Al Zarqawi who I think are way more important then Osama bin Laden. The only reason bin Laden is even known around the world is because he had a few guys that were technically under his control plan a semi-easy mission in a country where there was very little terrorism awareness to carry out three but very damaging three attacks. Seriously, look at some other terrorist orginizations, Al Queda under Bin Laden is a piece of unorganized shit. Al Zarqawi is under Al Queda leadership but he's pretty much running his own show and actually doing shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowdisease
The Crusades? Holocaust?Quote:
Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy
Back to the topic at hand, I agree with the moderate view in this thread, which is that it's a step in the right direction, but not a real breakthrough. Having elections in those countries is good, but what democratically elected governments make of the situation is more important. If Iraq votes itself into a theocracy and plunges into civil war we're probably worse off than when we started. I remain optimistic.
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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy
Firmly in opposition of the war, I belive progress has been made. The examples, I think, diffusionx was siting with Europe is that once, along with the rest of the world, all of Europe (east and west) were at each others throats. Not too long ago, Russia was concerned about attack from the Fins, before the Fins were conqured by the Sweeds. France fought dozens of wars with England. It was even up to the late 19th to early 20th century (not too long ago in the historical sence) there was a boat-load of military rivalry and paranoia amongst european nations (france/england, finland/russia [not USSR] are prime examples) when now we'd never expect that. Could you now forsee France and England going at it for some reason or another? I can't. It's really odd to think about that change. We're not worried too much about Germany either. We know what it did in even more recent historical memory but I doubt Poland is too weary of them these days.
Diffusionx has a point. There were some bloody times, with unimaginable hate not long ago amongst nations young folk like us probably can't fathom. The middle east has always been in turmoil... but it's forseeable that there could be healing there and that there could be unity (ala most all of western europe). Is it impossible that one day, maybe 30 to 40 years down the line, Iraq could be like Germany or Japan is today? Maybe. Terrorisim, I think, seems like a last ditch, or desperate, measure - even with reguards to jihadists.
Is the war the way to go? I've yet to be convinced, it's been said, "the ends justify the means," and well... lots of ends, as good as they've been, have still yet to justify their means. The cost isn't as high as things have been in the past - but the threat was no where near as high as it had been in the past either. I can't say for sure what the RIGHT right action would have been these days.
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Originally Posted by Joust Williams
To know that we didn't find any Weapons that were a threat American is one way (I'm using the administrations wording there), along with the fact that we never had any proof Saddam was responsible for 9/11. There are Americans who still believe Saddam Hussien was responsible for 9/11. And hey I getcha as there are Americans who believe we were responsible for 9/11, but the difference is, we know pretty much for a fact, Saddam wasn't.
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Originally Posted by Gohron
The difference between you and me is I just can't believe the ends justify the means. Thats all. If we were going to Iraq to liberate Iraq, and free up the oil fields, then the United States governement should not have spent the year before it trying to convince us otherwise. I would have cared less if they had said we think he's trying build WMD's and used that as an excuse, but there is a huge difference between that, and stating they already have them and they are a threat to us.
This government did not help its own cause by going to such means, not with winning the support of the Iraq people and the arab world, or curbing those who might become fundmentalists, they basically poured a bottle of Jack Daniels over an already raging fire.
Certainly things could not have been much worse in the Mid East vis a vis America's interests on 9/12. Aren't things, however uncertain the outcome may be, progressing more nicely than we ever could have hoped for?Quote:
Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy
What would YAWA do, tomorrow, if he were suddenly in charge?
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Originally Posted by The_Meach
Commit to a clear date to minimalize troops but still allow for their to be bases outside of major Iraqi insurgency hotspots, ask for more help internationally (that seems like a no brainer, but someone other than Bush would have a much easier time doing this), raise and balance the tax brackets so the rich Republicans are paying for this war, and do everything I can to convince the public that we are cleaning up a mess now and it will take everyone's help to do so.
Most of all, be humble about the whole thing. Humility goes a long way towards diplomatic relations.
"raise and balance the tax brackets so the rich Republicans are paying for this war"
So there's a bracket depending on party? That's absurd.