Peace in the Middle East

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

"raise and balance the tax brackets so the rich Republicans are paying for this war"

So there's a bracket depending on party? That's absurd.

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So is Haliburton. So its a perfect fit.

You're ridiculous. For someone that wants to be a uniter, you don't sound like it.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

"raise and balance the tax brackets so the rich Republicans are paying for this war"

So there's a bracket depending on party? That's absurd.

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Heh. Yea. Sean Penn, Michael Moore, and Barbara Streisand will be exempt.

YAWA, you're coming off almost as irrational as Yoshi... not quite, but almost. I think so long as we can agree that progress has been made, although at a cost we'll be ok. I also think there's the potential for great improvement, the in-roads have been made. I see no point in take an alarmist position in this right now BUT there's also no reason to be rosy eyed about the situation.

Look I couldn't resist the chance to say that. God only knows Republicans expect middle and lower class america to pay for this shit.

How about this, so that the "rich" are paying for this war.

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Originally Posted by Tracer

YAWA, you're coming off almost as irrational as Yoshi... not quite, but almost. I think so long as we can agree that progress has been made, although at a cost we'll be ok. I also think there's the potential for great improvement, the in-roads have been made. I see no point in take an alarmist position in this right now BUT there's also no reason to be rosy eyed about the situation.

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Eh I'm seething about the whole thing.

I can admit its not as bad as I thought it would be, but I won't be getting over the how illegal this war is anytime soon. I won't be getting over the photo's of Iraqi civilians with Napalm burns on their bodies. I won't be getting over the lies, and misinformation this administration spews, and the absolute lack of balls the media has shown on the whole subject.

I just won't.

But if you want me to say its not as bad as it could be? I'll say that. If you want me to say its going better than expected? I'll point out that it was orginally supposed to cost us about a billion dollars. Not the 280 billion it has.

Thats really it. Incompetence breeds incompetence. Complacency breeds power mongers..

We've got a lot of that being passed around right now.

And that scares me more than it scares most people.

I agree that financially the cost is terrible, as is the human cost but what is done is done. Now, the idea is to see things out to make the world a better place if thats possible. This can't be a hit and run. It's going to cost us and cost us for a long time to come AND yes I agree that the benefit won't be for what we went in for. I think everyone who supported the war outright has some shit on their face, but what good is that to point out. There's potential there and we're left with no choice to do our best to see that potential through. We cannot back down and we can't responsibly leave. It WOULD be a crime then. WE, as Americans (though many disagreed with it) made this choice. We made it and now we've got to deal with it. Bitching and moaning about the costs (human and monitary and time) will make nothing better. We've chosen our path and now we must keep going (politcally expident or not) untill tourist are cannonballing their fat asses in the Euprhrates in the summer and buying shitty rinky-dink baubles from bazzars to commmorate their trip.

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Originally Posted by Tracer

I agree that financially the cost is terrible, as is the human cost but what is done is done. Now, the idea is to see things out to make the world a better place if thats possible. This can't be a hit and run. It's going to cost us and cost us for a long time to come AND yes I agree that the benefit won't be for what we went in for. I think everyone who supported the war outright has some shit on their face, but what good is that to point out. There's potential there and we're left with no choice to do our best to see that potential through. We cannot back down and we can't responsibly leave. It WOULD be a crime then. WE, as Americans (though many disagreed with it) made this choice. We made it and now we've got to deal with it. Bitching and moaning about the costs (human and monitary and time) will make nothing better. We've chosen our path and now we must keep going (politcally expident or not) untill tourist are cannonballing their fat asses in the Euprhrates in the summer and buying shitty rinky-dink baubles from bazzars to commmorate their trip.

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Anyone who doesn't believe it needs to be seen through is an idiot Tracer, I agree very much with that. But I didn't want this war. Most Americans didn't want this war at the time. George Bush decided to stop fighting the war on terrorism and invade a country, and your right we have to clean up, after him.

The there's work to do mentality is a great way to get something done and I respect you for simplifying it like that. I also agree. But my problem is, there is gonna be a lot more work to do long before the current workload runs out, we can't just stop and focus on the small task at hand and forget the things people should try to remember here, the least of which is explaining to our children why they are paying off a 289 billion dollar war debt.

But I agree and have from the beginning that we need to stick it till its in some respectable shape, because to fail now would be an awful example. I think a lot of what I have said about this tonight has kind of been misread as "Bring the boys back home" when its really more of, "look at what this guy did, and he still has his job."

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Peace in the Middle East

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LOLZ

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

The difference between you and me is I just can't believe the ends justify the means. Thats all. If we were going to Iraq to liberate Iraq, and free up the oil fields, then the United States governement should not have spent the year before it trying to convince us otherwise. I would have cared less if they had said we think he's trying build WMD's and used that as an excuse, but there is a huge difference between that, and stating they already have them and they are a threat to us.


This government did not help its own cause by going to such means, not with winning the support of the Iraq people and the arab world, or curbing those who might become fundmentalists, they basically poured a bottle of Jack Daniels over an already raging fire.

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The problem, YAWA, is that what's actually happening in the Middle East puts the lie to what you're writing here.

The area is marching towards democracy, effectively, because we've put a gun to its head. Do you remember the sorts of things the left was saying about the USSR in 1986?

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Originally Posted by Stone

The problem, YAWA, is that what's actually happening in the Middle East puts the lie to what you're writing here.

The area is marching towards democracy, effectively, because we've put a gun to its head. Do you remember the sorts of things the left was saying about the USSR in 1986?

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Reagan didn't end the Cold War. Reagan didn't cause the fall of the Soviet Union. The Soviet people caused the fall of Communism in Russia, without the need of military intervention from the US.

The Middle East is marching toward democracy (in some areas) because the people there want it. Not because Bush invaded Iraq. Did it help the situation? Perhaps, but to say that it's the only reason or even the main reason I can't agree with. I believe that if the Iraqi people had been given the tools to liberate themselves they would have had elections sooner and next to no insurgency other than Baathist holdouts.

Now, I could be wrong and it may be a moot point, but I think it's important because we need to realize there may be an easier and perhaps even more effective way of doing what it is we're doing in the Middle East instead of just sending in troops to die in guerrilla warfare.