Why Halo 1 is better than Halo 2.

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Originally Posted by FM Nick

Well if that is what you meant in the first place, let me make the change for you:

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Um, thanks. That wasn't necessary.

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The thing is, you are suppose to be a professional at this, correct? You work for one of the most "prestigious" gaming sites in the world, and you're sitting here arguing something that is blatantly getting thrown back in your face.

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Forget that I work at IGN. It has nothing to do with this argument. The fact that these guys can argue nonsense about game design is simply evidence that they don't know much about it.

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For months, you have been proven wrong on your views on H2, yet you keep coming back with the same arguments. I now, want something that proves your reasoning behind all of this. Facts.

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Except that I haven't been proven wrong. There's just a huge difference of opinion on what constitutes balance. I say balance is everyone has an equal chance of competiting. They think balance is, "Look, Opaque did it."

MarkRyan is arguing statistics.

Opaque is arguing from past experiences.

This debate will never end.

Everyone does have an equal chance at winning. Then skill comes into play. Some are better than others, nothing is going to change that. Even if everyone has a magical "balanced" weapon you are going to win sometimes and you are going to lose sometimes.

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Originally Posted by Tain

MarkRyan is arguing statistics.

Opaque is arguing from past experiences.

This debate will never end.

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To be fair, I don't think Opaque had a lot to do with this thread. If anything, it was g0zen that was going above and beyond in saying that Opaque would proove MarkRyans "facts" to be false.

its like a love triangle.....weird.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

By best weapon I meant most interesting. None of other new weapons add shit to the game (there's an alien clone of all the human weapons). The Brute Shot is at least interesting in tight-quarters levels.

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Then that really just completely changes the point you were trying to make in that extremely bias and wrong article you wrote. Because in all honestly you are just making baseless arguments simply because you're bitter they took out the scope on the pistol out of the game.

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Originally Posted by Rumpy

Everyone does have an equal chance at winning. Then skill comes into play. Some are better than others, nothing is going to change that. Even if everyone has a magical "balanced" weapon you are going to win sometimes and you are going to lose sometimes.

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Exactly, and it's not like there arn't those weapons all over the map. Most maps have multiple battle rifles/carbines near most spawn points, which is MarkRyan's equivilent of the all mighty pistol.

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Originally Posted by BrAnDX105

Then that really just completely changes the point you were trying to make in that extremely bias and wrong article you wrote. Because in all honestly you are just making baseless arguments simply because you're bitter they took out the scope on the pistol out of the game.

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What does the Brute Shot have to do with the rest of the article? And are you shocked that an opinion shows bias and preference? You shouldn't be.

And now why would I be bitter about them removing the pistol's scope? I didn't code it myself. You're being pretty frivolous, here.

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Originally Posted by BrAnDX105

Exactly, and it's not like there arn't those weapons all over the map. Most maps have multiple battle rifles/carbines near most spawn points, which is MarkRyan's equivilent of the all mighty pistol.

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Most of the best weapons are limited to a single spawn within the level. And as I've been saying, there is no equalizer in Halo 2 that's like the pistol. Nothing makes up for its absence.

If the battle rifle and carbine were the same as the pistol, this entire argument wouldn't exist. They are most definitely not equivalent.

I thought the pistol was broken. I mean, I know it's not supposed to be realistic but when i'm as far away as some maps in Halo 1 are and i'm killing people with the pistol, it just seems wrong. I dunno, maybe pistols are that good in real life.

I only like Halo 2 more because it's online and it's fun to play. I gave up on playing a totally balanced game years ago. There will always be cheap stuff found.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

Most of the best weapons are limited to a single spawn within the level. And as I've been saying, there is no equalizer in Halo 2 that's like the pistol. Nothing makes up for its absence.

If the battle rifle and carbine were the same as the pistol, this entire argument wouldn't exist. They are most definitely not equivalent.

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Are you kidding me right now? 4 shots to the head with a BR/Carbine will kill someone, and how many shots is it with the pistol, 3? All are able to be used in mid long and reletivly close range fights, and all of these weapons respawn constantly on the maps right near spawn points. I don't get how you can argue against this, it's a fact, not an opinion.

And really, if you want to go ahead and pick out balance issues in all games you'd be doing it until you die. There is no perfectly balanced game, Halo sure as hell wasn't perfectly balanced, and Halo 2 sure as hell isn't perfectly balanced. I've definately played Halo 1 (Lan and on XBConnect), and Halo 2 just as much, and most likely more than you and from my experience playing, all your arguments are completely wrong. You don't have cold hard facts to back up what your saying, all it is is really bitching and moaning, and all of it is unwarrented.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

Forget that I work at IGN. It has nothing to do with this argument. The fact that these guys can argue nonsense about game design is simply evidence that they don't know much about it.

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And since when are you the ultimate authority on game design, and game balance? Your holier than thou attitude on this subject really just makes you look like a huge asshole. If you know so much about game design stop writing guides and start making videogames.

I stopped playing Halo 2 online because I think the balance is shit. Sure is fun to spawn next to another player thats dual wielding. Your completely screwed. I also cant STAND the abiltity to hear the other team. If your not playing with friends all you can hear is assholes and children. I didnt suck at the game but the balancing just is out of hand. Whoever gets to the weapons on a map first wins. I know its not the way the game is meant to be but I dont like shooting someone in the back with a SMG just for them to turn around with their pistol/smg combo and rape me. At least in Rainbow I think everyone has a fair chance with whatever weapon they choose. Picking up weapons laying around during a match just sucks. I'll give the game another shot when the new maps show up.

Halo 1 was more balanced if you took out the pistol.

Hopefully people stop playing Halo 2 and try Black Hawk Down, Lockdown, and Conker when they come out. Halo 2 seems to be ruining other online games since nobody is willing to stop playing Halo and try them.

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Originally Posted by BrAnDX105

Are you kidding me right now? 4 shots to the head with a BR/Carbine will kill someone, and how many shots is it with the pistol, 3? All are able to be used in mid long and reletivly close range fights, and all of these weapons respawn constantly on the maps right near spawn points. I don't get how you can argue against this, it's a fact, not an opinion.

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Carbine's seven head shots. And neither weapon is nearly as quick as the pistol. Both the battle rifle and the carbine are going to run out of ammo after two kills, while the pistol's got four kills in a clip. And the pistol is more accurate at longer ranges.

As I said earlier, if the battle rifle and carbine were equal to the pistol then this entire argument doesn't exist. Not my points nor any one else's. Do you think they balanced the pistol by changing the model into a rifle and weakening every other weapon in the game that's not a sniper rifle or rocket launcher?

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And really, if you want to go ahead and pick out balance issues in all games you'd be doing it until you die. There is no perfectly balanced game, Halo sure as hell wasn't perfectly balanced, and Halo 2 sure as hell isn't perfectly balanced.

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I agree that Halo 1 isn't completely balanced. The rocket launcher needs to go, the warthog needs more power when two people are in it, the active camo and overshield need to go... In fact, if they wanted to make it more balanced they should remove the whole item collection aspect of the game. Something along the designs of RtCW, Team Fortress, and Counter Strike (where you get your weapons before the fighting starts) would definitely make balancing the game a lot easier.

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And since when are you the ultimate authority on game design, and game balance? Your holier than thou attitude on this subject really just makes you look like a huge asshole. If you know so much about game design stop writing guides and start making videogames.

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I haven't been personal about any of these arguments. I haven't insulted anyone, I haven't put anyone down. I'm just arguing an opinion like everyone else (and probably doing so in a friendlier manner than some others), so I'm not sure how I come out looking like an asshole (unless it upsets you that I'm right).

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

I haven't been personal about any of these arguments. I haven't insulted anyone, I haven't put anyone down. I'm just arguing an opinion like everyone else (and probably doing so in a friendlier manner than some others), so I'm not sure how I come out looking like an asshole (unless it upsets you that I'm right).

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It's the fact that you argue your points to the death. No matter WHAT anybody says, no matter WHAT anybody does, you refuse to change your mind on this particular subject. While that is noble and all, you conduct yourself in such a manner that just screams "No! No! No! I'm right! You're wrong!" and that gives of shady vibes. If you would just STOP posting about Halo 2 all together then all the unnecessary hate would magically stop!

hay guys whats going on in this thread http://www.electricbreakfast.com/lj/cool.gif

Everybody needs to shut up. Go look at what Tojo and Mzo said on the first page, because it's right.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

As I said earlier, if the battle rifle and carbine were equal to the pistol then this entire argument doesn't exist. Not my points nor any one else's. Do you think they balanced the pistol by changing the model into a rifle and weakening every other weapon in the game that's not a sniper rifle or rocket launcher?

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If you think a balanced weapon is one that is able to kill upto 4 people with one clip while it is the weapon you start with, I guess I don't understand what balance is at all. I would say that's overpowered.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

I agree that Halo 1 isn't completely balanced. The rocket launcher needs to go, the warthog needs more power when two people are in it, the active camo and overshield need to go... In fact, if they wanted to make it more balanced they should remove the whole item collection aspect of the game. Something along the designs of RtCW, Team Fortress, and Counter Strike (where you get your weapons before the fighting starts) would definitely make balancing the game a lot easier.

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No. Because if I wanted to play a game without a rocket launcher, without items, with different classes of characters I wouldn't be playing Halo, I would be playing RTCW, Team Fortress, or Counter Strike. And those are the games I exactly DON'T want to play.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

I agree that Halo 1 isn't completely balanced. The rocket launcher needs to go, the warthog needs more power when two people are in it, the active camo and overshield need to go... In fact, if they wanted to make it more balanced they should remove the whole item collection aspect of the game. Something along the designs of RtCW, Team Fortress, and Counter Strike (where you get your weapons before the fighting starts) would definitely make balancing the game a lot easier.

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I think the problem is that you want to make these games something they're not, while the rest of us appreciate what they are and enjoy them.

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Originally Posted by FM Nick

It's the fact that you argue your points to the death. No matter WHAT anybody says, no matter WHAT anybody does, you refuse to change your mind on this particular subject. While that is noble and all, you conduct yourself in such a manner that just screams "No! No! No! I'm right! You're wrong!" and that gives of shady vibes. If you would just STOP posting about Halo 2 all together then all the unnecessary hate would magically stop!

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I couldn't have said it better myself. You're acting like no one here has really played these games as much as you, which gives you the authority to be right. While in reality, most people who post about Halo on here have played Halo 2 a hell of a lot more than you and in reality know better.

You see, the weapon choice in Halo 1 is like communist Russia. Everyone starts out with the the same pistol, no matter what. Sure, you can get another weapon, but when you do, the more powerful pistol will pretty much kill you, because no matter what, the pistol has the power of numbers. There's always the revolutionary firebrand, aka, the rocket launcher, who has his days of victory, but it runs out of ammo eventually, and he is eventually trounced by the majority, the ultra-powerful pistol.

On the other hand, Halo 2 follows American democratic principles. You start out at the bottom, with either an assualt rifle or a plasma rifle, but with work, you can easily work your way to the top with weapon choice, by either dual weilding or simply getting one that is more powerful.

And the thing is, "powerful" is relative. A sniper rifle is powerful, say, against dual assualt rifles, but only when at long range. Solution: Don't run around on a huge open field with no cover. However, the same dual rifles are much more effective if you go close range, so long as you're not dumb and run straight toward the sniper, where you're an easy victim of a no-scope.

People who complain about "balance issues" really just suck at the game. And this goes for virtually any game. Go on the battle.net forum and youll see that virtually every matchup is "unbalanced" to at least one person. Those people suck.

People who complain about Counterstrike and the AWP suck. Its almost become a joke, but youd be surprised to see how many people complain about "faggot AWPers" and how shitty the AWP is. Those people suck, good players have no problem with that weapon.

Those are two examples, but this applies to any game out there. The top tier of games, games like CS, War3, and Halo 2, are like 90% balanced, and every tweak just throws the balance off slightly in some other way. When you're at that point, it really comes down to skill. Look at top-level CSers and top-level War3ers, youll see that they use different weapons, and all four classes. Proving the game isnt really unbalanced. Likewise, the fact that Opaque owns people with so many weapons in that montage proves Halo 2 isnt unbalanced.

So stop whining, MarkRyan. You just suck at the game. Same with SamuraiMoogle.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiMoogle

I stopped playing Halo 2 online because I think the balance is shit. Sure is fun to spawn next to another player thats dual wielding. Your completely screwed. I also cant STAND the abiltity to hear the other team. If your not playing with friends all you can hear is assholes and children. I didnt suck at the game but the balancing just is out of hand. Whoever gets to the weapons on a map first wins. I know its not the way the game is meant to be but I dont like shooting someone in the back with a SMG just for them to turn around with their pistol/smg combo and rape me. At least in Rainbow I think everyone has a fair chance with whatever weapon they choose. Picking up weapons laying around during a match just sucks. I'll give the game another shot when the new maps show up.

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I still hate all this complaining about spawning and someone is right next to you. Because this really only happens MAYBE once a game (unless they are spawn camping), and even sometimes you're able to 'nade and shoot your way out of the situation as long as you see the person quick enough. If you have 1 SMG, and you don't think you can kill the person with it, then instead of shooting them and letting them know you are there turn around and go get yourself a weapon. At every single spawn point there are multiple weapons near you to either pick up and dual wield or one that is just more powerful than a single SMG.

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Originally Posted by Samurai

Picking up weapons laying around during a match just sucks.

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Whoa, then never play a FPS that isn't based on reality.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

People who complain about "balance issues" really just suck at the game. And this goes for virtually any game. Go on the battle.net forum and youll see that virtually every matchup is "unbalanced" to at least one person. Those people suck.

People who complain about Counterstrike and the AWP suck. Its almost become a joke, but youd be surprised to see how many people complain about "faggot AWPers" and how shitty the AWP is. Those people suck, good players have no problem with that weapon.

Those are two examples, but this applies to any game out there. The top tier of games, games like CS, War3, and Halo 2, are like 90% balanced, and every tweak just throws the balance off slightly in some other way. When you're at that point, it really comes down to skill. Look at top-level CSers and top-level War3ers, youll see that they use different weapons, and all four classes. Proving the game isnt really unbalanced. Likewise, the fact that Opaque owns people with so many weapons in that montage proves Halo 2 isnt unbalanced.

So stop whining, MarkRyan. You just suck at the game. Same with SamuraiMoogle.

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IBTN. You can close the thread now, this pretty much says everything.

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I still hate all this complaining about spawning and someone is right next to you. Because this really only happens MAYBE once a game (unless they are spawn camping), and even sometimes you're able to 'nade and shoot your way out of the situation as long as you see the person quick enough.

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Back when I was playing FPS games hardcore, spawn camping was a genuine concern in all the big games. But all the good players (and wannabe good players) simply learned to use the default, shit weapon just to get away quickly and find a better weapon. People who spawn camp are usually shit, and its easy to throw off their rhythm by getting one or two well-placed hits. That gives you a window of opportunity. And its not likely that there will be someone camping at every spawn point. If you respawn at a free one, go to that spawn point and kill the camper. Like I said, he usually sucks. See, once again it comes down to learning to play the game better, not whining like a little girl on a message board.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Back when I was playing FPS games hardcore, spawn camping was a genuine concern in all the big games. But all the good players (and wannabe good players) simply learned to use the default, shit weapon just to get away quickly and find a better weapon. People who spawn camp are usually shit, and its easy to throw off their rhythm by getting one or two well-placed hits. That gives you a window of opportunity. See, once again it comes down to learning to play the game better, not whining like a little girl on a message board.

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Exactly, and it's not like spawn camping is even that prevelant in Halo, because it really isn't at all. Spawning in front of people happens in nearly every FPS, and if you can't deal with getting killed every once in a while because of it, you just shouldn't be playing. But on the same note, if you can't get yourself out of the situation, you deserve to be killed.

I think that Halo has a very good spawning system. In a game like team slayer, you're always spawning near your team, so even if you're starting with a crap weapon, you have the chance of being near a weapon that's good.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

People who complain about "balance issues" really just suck at the game. And this goes for virtually any game. Go on the battle.net forum and youll see that virtually every matchup is "unbalanced" to at least one person. Those people suck.

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I would've expected better from you, though I don't know why. I played with the TNL guys once without having played the game for months, and got 2nd place (behind Opaque only) in all but one game. That doesn't make my arguments any more or less valid, because the facts are independent of my abilities.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

So stop whining, MarkRyan. You just suck at the game. Same with SamuraiMoogle.

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I've never played Halo 2 with you, so how would you know I suck? Anybody I've played with here know I certainly do not suck.


I guess the spawing next to somebody that has a bigger gun than mine doesnt happen that much but come on, you gotta agree that you get more than fucked once in awhile when you spawn with a SMG and you have yet to FIND a decent gun.

Look Halo 2 doesnt blow, its frickin awesome. It just pisses me off sometimes when it doesnt matter how much skill I have, I get boned by the guy with the better weapon then told how much of a fag I am :)

When the new maps come out, I'll be back on.

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

I would've expected better from you, though I don't know why. I played with the TNL guys once without having played the game for months, and got 2nd place (behind Opaque only) in all but one game. That doesn't make my arguments any more or less valid, because the facts are independent of my abilities.

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So this does nothing but make the point that you have played Halo 2 with members from TNL.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiMoogle

I guess the spawing next to somebody that has a bigger gun than mine doesnt happen that much but come on, you gotta agree that you get more than fucked once in awhile when you spawn with a SMG and you have yet to FIND a decent gun.

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I agree, it is annoying, but it happens in nearly every FPS. Unreal Tournament is easily one of the finest balanced FPS's out there and this happens in that game too. Be it, just like in Halo there are weapons right near your spawn, if you can't get to those weapons in time, chances are your pea shooter won't stand a chance. So you either A run, or B attempt to fight.

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Originally Posted by BrAnDX105

So this does nothing but make the point that you have played Halo 2 with members from TNL.



I agree, it is annoying, but it happens in nearly every FPS. Unreal Tournament is easily one of the finest balanced FPS's out there and this happens in that game too. Be it, just like in Halo there are weapons right near your spawn, if you can't get to those weapons in time, chances are your pea shooter won't stand a chance. So you either A run, or B attempt to fight.

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Ha, I've more than once tried to run from a bunch of guys yelling "RUNAWAY! RUNAWAY!" I guess the whole hear the other team thing just makes me notice the whole weapon thing more than other games. Being called naughty names by the guy that killed me with a rocket while I whittle away his health with my SMG angers me......angers me as in fly to his house Jay and Silent Bob style and beat the shit outta him :)

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Originally Posted by MarkRyan

I would've expected better from you, though I don't know why. I played with the TNL guys once without having played the game for months, and got 2nd place (behind Opaque only) in all but one game. That doesn't make my arguments any more or less valid, because the facts are independent of my abilities.

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Doesn't even say anything about your abilities. Opaque told us you played like shit, and if anyone knows it'd be him.

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Originally Posted by SamuraiMoogle

Ha, I've more than once tried to run from a bunch of guys yelling "RUNAWAY! RUNAWAY!"

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So have I, and I'm sure you've also been on the other side of the situation screamin "RUN BITCHES RUN" when you see someone running away.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Doesn't even say anything about your abilities. Opaque told us you played like shit, and if anyone knows it'd be him.

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And I'm pretty sure he didn't play with me, you, Chux, or Chao, which are really the only people who play the game all the time. So I bet his performance was more based on how badly everyone else sucked.

You guys talk like the spawn system is picking on you. For every time you've gotten a bad spawn (and again, this doesn't happen often), the same damn thing has happened to one of your enemies. The same goes for starting spawns. For every game your team starts far away from the beam rifle, rocket, etc., you've had a game where you spawned right of top of them to start the game. Play enough Halo and things always even out.

High level players didn't get to where they are due to sheer luck. Sure, they've gotten a few breaks along the way, but who hasn't? They are ranked the highest because when they're put in a tough situation, they do their damndest to overcome it. Lesser players will defeat themselves by whining about the spawns, lag, and whatever else accentuated their weakness.

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Originally posted by Samurai Moogle
I didnt suck at the game

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Originally posted by Samurai Moogle
I dont like shooting someone in the back with a SMG just for them to turn around with their pistol/smg combo and rape me.

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I hate to break it to you, but if you're doing that, you do suck.