Religion

Ironplant I agree.

People seem to forget that history is written by the "winners" regardless of whether it's correct or not.

The agnostics certainly view Jesus and Co. a little differently than your everyday Hebrew back in the day.

Their reward? Burned, killed, exiled. They had to hide their most important documents underground.

yeah that sounds like a great path to follow.....If you're an anchor on the 700 club.

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Originally Posted by prisoner38911301

Don't quite know where to start... Well, first off, I am a Christian. I believe that God made the world in six literal days, that existence as a whole is about 10,000 years old, give or take,

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Does believing in the moral teachings of Jesus Christ and the Christian philosophy require you to be believe this? Would you be willing to examine evidence that points to it being incorrect? Do you think dinosaur bones were put in place by Satan to confuse you?

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Originally Posted by IronPlant

I still don't see how anyone with an ounce of brain, who has not had some sort of revelation from god, can believe full heartily in the Christian religion.

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Faith, which is the beginning of all knowledge and reason. Where you put your faith, whether in God, evolution, or what have you, is where you will believe. I cannot 'prove' God to you, because it is mediated knowledge... someone has to tell you, and after you've reasoned it out, you accept God's way as true. This may come as a shock to a few of you, but Christians aren't 'born' Christians... I was just as much a diehard evolutionist as many others I knew. But through hearing, and through weighing it out and reasoning the evidence, I began to see Evolution as it truly was... a worldview/belief system. I then discarded Evolution the worldview, because it no longer made sense to me. Let me stress, I separate microevolution (change WITHIN a species) from macroevolution (change BETWEEN species).

However, whether you believe in six literal days and a 10,000 year old universe, or billions of years of evolution, the most important thing is Christ. Accepting Christ as your Savior and knowing where you're going is FAR more important than worrying about how you got here.

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Originally Posted by Daddy Warbuk$

The agnostics certainly view Jesus and Co. a little differently than your everyday Hebrew back in the day.

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Do you mean the Gnostics? Because there is a big difference between someone who ascribes to the Gnostic tradition and someone who is a professed agnostic.

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Originally Posted by prisoner38911301

Faith, which is the beginning of all knowledge and reason. Where you put your faith, whether in God, evolution, or what have you, is where you will believe. I cannot 'prove' God to you, because it is mediated knowledge... someone has to tell you, and after you've reasoned it out, you accept God's way as true. This may come as a shock to a few of you, but Christians aren't 'born' Christians... I was just as much a diehard evolutionist as many others I knew. But through hearing, and through weighing it out and reasoning the evidence, I began to see Evolution as it truly was... a worldview/belief system. I then discarded Evolution the worldview, because it no longer made sense to me. Let me stress, I separate microevolution (change WITHIN a species) from macroevolution (change BETWEEN species).

However, whether you believe in six literal days and a 10,000 year old universe, or billions of years of evolution, the most important thing is Christ. Accepting Christ as your Savior and knowing where you're going is FAR more important than worrying about how you got here.

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Evolution is NOT a worldview or a belief system. It is a scientific theory based on observable evidence. Creationism is not. If you have evidence to the contrary I demand you present it now.

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Originally Posted by IronPlant

I still don't see how anyone with an ounce of brain, who has not had some sort of revelation from god, can believe full heartily in the Christian religion.

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It provides some substance to what can seem to be a meaningless existance. If you believe "Oh, I'm intelligent but when I die, that's it my life didn't matter" It's not very inspiring. That's always been my take on religion: It's a way for men to believe they are serving something greater than themselves.

Sorry Gnostics, doing 4 things at once.

My bad.

However, if one is to actually take the bible seriously, then can this person explain why God because pacifist in the new testament?

Also, explain to be how we can carbon f-ing date fossils which scientifically refutes all "creationist" ideas.

I'm all ears.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Does believing in the moral teachings of Jesus Christ and the Christian philosophy require you to be believe this? Would you be willing to examine evidence that points to it being incorrect? Do you think dinosaur bones were put in place by Satan to confuse you?

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I don't believe Satan put dinosaur bones anywhere, I believe that dinosaurs coexisted with humanity, and after the flood, died out. Why? I don't know. I do know that according to the Bible, animal and human life became omnivorous and carnivorous (sp) after the flood. I trust God had a good reason. However, as I have said, the most pressing issue isn't looking to a distant past as it is looking into the eternal future, and regardless of whether you believe in a young or old Earth, the most important thing is that one accepts Christ. I'll find out if I'm wrong or not once I ask God.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Evolution is NOT a worldview or a belief system. It is a scientific theory based on observable evidence. Creationism is not. If you have evidence to the contrary I demand you present it now.

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That's just it... whether it's a worldview or not, there's NOTHING I can 'present' to you to 'prove' it's real, because it's mediated knowledge... something you have to be told. Basically, it's something you have to be taught. You have been taught evolution, you had faith that whoever taught you evolution, or otherwise presented it to you in whatever form, was presenting to you something trustworthy, and you have placed your trust in that information. That is what faith is... trusting in something. You trust that evolution is correct, and have reasoned in your mind that the theory is correct. I used to trust that evolution was a sound scientific theory, but I no longer trust it. I've already provided a website that explains many more facets of the Creationist theory far better than I can... if you wish to, investigate this and weight it against evolution. That's the most I can offer you regarding the origin of life G0zen... your own reasoning.

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Originally Posted by prisoner38911301

I don't believe Satan put dinosaur bones anywhere, I believe that dinosaurs coexisted with humanity, and after the flood, died out. Why? I don't know. I do know that according to the Bible, animal and human life became omnivorous and carnivorous (sp) after the flood. I trust God had a good reason. .

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Then surely you think of Moses, Noah, and Jesus as neaderthals correct?

Reference the fact that we have seen examples of these ancient "men" eating and cooking meat. Also reference that they possess incisors which are only used for meat eating. And by your theory stated above, Jesus was a cave man.

Someday it's going to dawn on you that this just does not add up.

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Originally Posted by Daddy Warbuk$

Also, explain to be how we can carbon f-ing date fossils which scientifically refutes all "creationist" ideas.

I'm all ears.

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Carbon dating isn't necessary, one can easily use Relative Dating for the same purpose. Since I doubt you know what that is, have a look at this. Through methods like this and Absolute Dating (the use of carbon 14, etc.) we can confidently estimate the age of the Earth in Geologic Time. While the final results may differ, none have ever been outside of the range of tens of millions. None, that I'm aware of, show evidence of a 10,000 year old Earth.

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Originally Posted by prisoner38911301

I don't believe Satan put dinosaur bones anywhere, I believe that dinosaurs coexisted with humanity, and after the flood, died out. Why? I don't know..

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You accept this based on what? Do you completely discount scienctific data in favor of something that just 'sounds' right to you? I just can't comprehend that kind of thinking. It seems to be the epitome of blissful ignorance.

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Originally Posted by prisoner38911301

That's just it... whether it's a worldview or not, there's NOTHING I can 'present' to you to 'prove' it's real, because it's mediated knowledge... something you have to be told. Basically, it's something you have to be taught. You have been taught evolution, you had faith that whoever taught you evolution, or otherwise presented it to you in whatever form, was presenting to you something trustworthy, and you have placed your trust in that information. That is what faith is... trusting in something. You trust that evolution is correct, and have reasoned in your mind that the theory is correct. I used to trust that evolution was a sound scientific theory, but I no longer trust it. I've already provided a website that explains many more facets of the Creationist theory far better than I can... if you wish to, investigate this and weight it against evolution. That's the most I can offer you regarding the origin of life G0zen... your own reasoning.

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No, no, no. You're muddying the issue the way Joust tried to. I wasn't simply told "Evolution exists. Believe it." I was taught in the sense I was shown why that theory exists, the evidence behind it. Was I taught every nuance of it? No. Do I understand all of it? No. But, the evidence for it strongly leads me to believe that it is the most credible explanation for the origin of spieces.

The website you provided is bias and does not present things in a scientific manner. It is not valid for use in a serious discussion.

Gozen,

Actually I am aware of the method, but it's 6 of one things, a half dozen of another, does it really fucking matter if it proves the same point? Settle down, cowboy, you're going to pop an artery you annoying sack of shit, I'd hate to be your dad, nerd.

Anywho back to the conversation.....