Making everything ok

Don't you think that if just one of the next gen systems had a glorious 2D game for it that a lot of venom and negativity would be gone from us gaming enthusiasts? I've sped through entire pages of angry back and forths on threads like the Contra and Mega Man X7 threads, and while doing that this thought just popped into my head. 2D games being only on the GBA (a system that, no matter how many great games it has, alot of people hardly play simply because they have trouble seeing the screen), and the morphing of most 2D franchises into 3D games has been the cause of much confusion and bitter arguements amongst gamers. Even if a modern game retains the 2D gaming of old (Strider 2, the new Contra, ect), the graphics are still using polygons, and a game that uses polygons just doesn't look the same as one that uses sprites. You could argue that Street Fighteresque games have carried the 2D torch, but recent Capcom fighters have incorporated polygonal backgrounds. The gameplay and character sprites are still the same, but it seems that a sprite based game just can't even get made these days without some form of of a polygon being in it. I'm not putting this thread up to argue the merits of 3D gaming over 2D, that has been done many times over for years now. All I'm saying is that it was only a few years ago that games like Symphony of the Night, Skullmonkeys, and Astal were pushing the boundaries of what a 2D game is. Is it really ok for todays developers to just abandon sprites outright when a bright future seemed just ahead? Back when, Star Fox and Virtua Fighter were revolutionary, games that looked ahead and layed the foundation for what we consider gaming today. Now it seems that those games are all we have, and as corporations merge and games that couldn't be done until a couple years ago are set to have sequal after sequal, will any company out there be daring enough to pick up on the art form they abandoned just a scant few years earlier? Are there any revolutionary companies left?

If only KoF 2001, GG XX and CvS2 were on PS2...hey, they are! Bonus! And Contra and Mega Man X7 looked 2.5 D from what I saw, so that mostly counts.

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Originally posted by StriderKyo
If only KoF 2001, GG XX and CvS2 were on PS2...hey, they are! Bonus! And Contra and Mega Man X7 looked 2.5 D from what I saw, so that mostly counts.

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Only CvS2 is on PS2. KOF2K1 and GGXX have yet to be announced.

And while most companies these days have abandoned 2D, some still keep it alive(go Neo! go Neo!).

Plus the possibility of Metal Slug 3 being released on PS2 as well :)

And dont forget, that PS2 still might get another Castlevania game, after current one released on GBA.

As for me, I dont care much if its 2d or 3d, as long as the game is good :)

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Originally posted by Freeter


Only CvS2 is on PS2. KOF2K1 and GGXX have yet to be announced.

And while most companies these days have abandoned 2D, some still keep it alive(go Neo! go Neo!).

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As I read StriderKyo's thread, I just realized that Metal Slug still caries the all sprite tradition. Damn right, go Snk. Still, whatever Metal Slug game ends up on a console, it was developed as an arcade game, not as a made for console game.

I don't worry so much about the lack of new 2D games simply because there are thousands upon thousands of 2D games that are simply new to me -- and that's more than good enough. Megaman going 3D (again) is a bit disconcerting, sure, but at the same time I have to admit there's still a handful of previous games from the series that I've yet to purchase.

Still, I would love to see what these newer systems could do in the loving hands of a skilled 2D development house. Cave, anyone?

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Originally posted by Mode7
I don't worry so much about the lack of new 2D games simply because there are thousands upon thousands of 2D games that are simply new to me -- and that's more than good enough. Megaman going 3D (again) is a bit disconcerting, sure, but at the same time I have to admit there's still a handful of previous games from the series that I've yet to purchase.

Still, I would love to see what these newer systems could do in the loving hands of a skilled 2D development house. Cave, anyone?

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I know what you mean by old 2D games yet to be played. I've yet to play Ninja Gaiden, NES Contra, Kid Icarus, and countless others. Those games certainly help, but does just one great all sprite game for every 2,000 3D and 2.5D game on a next gen console seem like to much to ask?

Speaking of Castlevania, I like the Metroid style neo-Castlevanias of the past few years, but after the next GBA one, that'll make 3 of them. So, I'm saying it's about time to go back to the Super Castlevania IV ACTION packed stuff for the next one or come up with something new. Yeah, new and 2D; it's not impossible. Yeah. That's the ticket. mmm-hmmm.

Here's the thing: The GBA is great, and provides up with good 2D games. However, as I went on about before, we finally have the ability to toss around enough sprites on consoles to do giant sprite scaling and rotation with multi-segmented characters (not just bosses, but everything) and huge amounts of parralax and all sorts of high-quality sprites.

So what do we do? We get everything 2D on the one current system which can't do any of that. As soon as we have the ability to really take 2D to another level, it gets pushed aside and held back.

Of course, even if a developer had the chance, they'd probably still do everything the traditional way (aside from occasional bosses, like what Super Metroid and C:SotN did, though SM used it more often and occasionally incorperated it into Samus' animations). Hrm, can't seem to win this one.

I'm sure Treasure has a few 2-d games up their sleeves. Maybe a game like Stretch Panic has given them a reason, not to keep trying their hand with 3-d style games. Maybe the sequel to Radiant Silvergun will be the next great 2-d console game, if it's ever released.

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Originally posted by Freeter


Only CvS2 is on PS2. KOF2K1 and GGXX have yet to be announced.

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Eolith announced KoF 2K1 for PS2 back in March, supposedly it should be out around July. Considering GG XX is basically the same game that's already out on PS2 with a few extra characters and backgrounds, its announcement on PS2 seems like a mere formality, wouldn't you say?

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Originally posted by gamevet
I'm sure Treasure has a few 2-d games up their sleeves. Maybe a game like Stretch Panic has given them a reason, not to keep trying their hand with 3-d style games. Maybe the sequel to Radiant Silvergun will be the next great 2-d console game, if it's ever released.

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A new 2D Treasure game would make me do flips, but does anyone here see Treasure EVER doing a new all sprite 2D game ever again? Also, its been a long time since I've played it but, isn't Radiant Silvergun all polygons?

MechDeus, could you make your last paragraph clearer? I don't get what you're trying to say about the bosses and Samus' animation.

GGX has shown what the current systems are capable of when it comes to 2D, and given enough time I'm sure we'll see more titles take advantage of the new hardware.

Visuals aren't everything though, and the simple play mechanics can still be found on the GBA. Hell many games look absolutely stunning on that little guy, and I don't think the industry has ever seen so many great 2D titles. Sure most aren't taking full advantage of what's available, but we're still better off then the 16bit gen.

Enjoy the GBA titles, buy a TV adapter if you must, and snag the odd console title for the eye candy. Really, things could be better for the 2D fans, but they could be much worse too.

Radiant Silvergun is mostly sprites for smaller enemies and the character ships, and the larger enemies, bosses, and levels are polygons.

Some of the bosses and Samus Aran in Super Metroid and C:SotN use sprite rotation and sectional areas. You'll notice Samus can rotate her upper half with some items (and it's a smooth rotation, not traditional drawn frames), and many of the bosses are divided into pieces (arms, body, head, etc.) so each piece can move independantly of the main body. It's provides a very smooth effect that allows for better aiming for the bosses as well as greater movement from them. Watch Mother Brain's beam attack for a nice example. In C:SotN, the giant thin green boss uses it (the one pictured on back of the case, I think the Olrox is it's name), as do one of two others.

It's something more games should use.

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Originally posted by Green


A new 2D Treasure game would make me do flips, but does anyone here see Treasure EVER doing a new all sprite 2D game ever again? Also, its been a long time since I've played it but, isn't Radiant Silvergun all polygons?

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Radiant Silvergun featured 2-d ships and bullets, with some 3-d backdrops. It still provided a great sprite showcase, with 3-d in the background.

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Originally posted by MechDeus
Radiant Silvergun is mostly sprites for smaller enemies and the character ships, and the larger enemies, bosses, and levels are polygons.

Some of the bosses and Samus Aran in Super Metroid and C:SotN use sprite rotation and sectional areas. You'll notice Samus can rotate her upper half with some items (and it's a smooth rotation, not traditional drawn frames), and many of the bosses are divided into pieces (arms, body, head, etc.) so each piece can move independantly of the main body. It's provides a very smooth effect that allows for better aiming for the bosses as well as greater movement from them. Watch Mother Brain's beam attack for a nice example. In C:SotN, the giant thin green boss uses it (the one pictured on back of the case, I think the Olrox is it's name), as do one of two others.

It's something more games should use.

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I gotcha. I remember reading in Gamefan about a Gundam 2D fighting game for PS that uses this technique so that these big Gundams can fight smoothly.

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Originally posted by MechDeus
Here's the thing: The GBA is great, and provides up with good 2D games. However, as I went on about before, we finally have the ability to toss around enough sprites on consoles to do giant sprite scaling and rotation with multi-segmented characters (not just bosses, but everything) and huge amounts of parralax and all sorts of high-quality sprites.

So what do we do? We get everything 2D on the one current system which can't do any of that. As soon as we have the ability to really take 2D to another level, it gets pushed aside and held back.

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Exactly.