When Mini-Games Ruin a Game.

Sometimes, I wish games would be designed on a linear path with mini-games and such as bonus material on the side. I don't buy a platformer to drive a go-kart or play target-practice.
Case-in-point, Sly Cooper is annoying the shit out of me. I LOVE the platforming areas, as they can become rather challenging, but every time that fucking Murray comes up, I'm forced to race a bunch of dogs or shoot some monkeys or something. It's all pointless. The shooting areas are boring and the races are so goddamn frustrating that it almost makes me want to stop playing.

http://www.corpsechild.com/caliginous/images/murray.jpg
"Hey, Sly! You like mini-games, doncha? No? TOUGH SHIT! Get down here and rub my humogous, pink ass!"

Now, I'm up to the last stage, after trudging through the Murray shit. Guess what I find! A stage full of mini-games! A couple of more challenging platforming areas are between them, but the majority of the time is spent collecting and performing all manners of retarded "Star Fox Adventures"-calibur horseshit like telling the pink hippo to drive over computers before lava slugs eat them. FUN. Now, I'd expect some great fight with the last boss, but he's a gigantic fucking robotic owl and I'm shooting rockets at him out of a jetpack that looks like two pink tits hanging off of Sly's back. Seriously, why? I've gotten to the platforming bit afterwards ONCE out of five times so far. This is worse than the end of Devil May Cry and Onimusha 2. The last boss of a game should not be a mini-game! It's supposed to be some wacky culmination of all of the skills you've earned over the course of the game, for fuck's sake.
Honestly, this game is a great platformer interrupted by stupid mini-games that should have been optional. Boo on all of this.
[/rant]
Share similar frustrations or face the wrath of COBRA COMMANDER!

OK, don't take this personally, but if you don't find the first Sly Cooper to be brilliant, minigames and all, you're a moron. A game full of nothing but collecting and jumping would get seriously monotinous. Sly Cooper is the best platformer of this generation. Oh and I'd recommend staying away from the sequel, as its got more mini games. And apparently the third one is going to have even more of them.

How can he NOT take that personal?

Sly was ok, but it's not better than Ratchet and Clank.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Revoltor

How can he NOT take that personal?

---

Ya, you're right. I'm tired. Sorry dude. But it's how I felt at the time. You don't like the minigames, thats cool. Slys not for you then, thats all.

My vote would go to the asteroid level (Stage 4 IIRC) in Battletoads/Double Dragon. The whole game and concept is pretty stupid by itself in retrospect (especially when you consider that they messed up half of the characters' names from the Double Dragon side), but the Asteroid level really ruins whatever amusement you could have from the game. The controls are very cumbersome in that portion of the game and yet (it's tank scheme basically), you're required to move fast agaisnt the incoming enemies. Then for some reason, they change the controls halfway when you start fighting agaisnt the really frustrating boss.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Error

A game full of nothing but collecting and jumping would get seriously monotinous.

---

Sure, if the design/controls/etc. sucked. Plenty of games have been nothing but and are quite fun. Also, adding bad content never makes an already good game better, it just makes it worse.

I know I've played through some games where they toss this sort of retarded stuff in but I'm way too tired to think of any right now.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnny Undaunted

My vote would go to the asteroid level (Stage 4 IIRC) in Battletoads/Double Dragon. The whole game and concept is pretty stupid by itself in retrospect (especially when you consider that they messed up half of the characters' names from the Double Dragon side), but the Asteroid level really ruins whatever amusement you could have from the game. The controls are very cumbersome in that portion of the game and yet (it's tank scheme basically), you're required to move fast agaisnt the incoming enemies. Then for some reason, they change the controls halfway when you start fighting agaisnt the really frustrating boss.

---

It was totally Solar Jetman, and you suck. That level was awesome.

All of Sly was great, no problems at all. The ONLY challenging parts were trying to do some of the time trials. Everything else was pretty cake.'

I like Sly more than the first R&C, easy. I find R&C to be clunky and unfun.

I didn't much like the race stages of Metal Arms. They were pretty bland compared to the rest of the game.

Omikron: The Nomad Soul was a weak game. The story was ludicrous and pretentious as only Europeans can do. The graphic design was lame. Etc. BUT... it had the "full immersive city" thing going on, which was enough for me. It was ahead of everything else at the time, and I wanted a game like that. So I kept playing.

Until the FPS and fighting sequences came up.

Quote:

---

I didn't much like the race stages of Metal Arms. They were pretty bland compared to the rest of the game.

---

Those stages suck.

- The turbo tunnel in Battletoads.
- The railroad minigame in Vector Man.
- The shooter minigames in Gunstar Heroes and The Adventures of Batman and Robin.

Sly 2 has even more minigames than the original I think, but I personally didn't have a problem with either of them.

I also agree with Moz on the difficulty. Sly 2 doesn't have the time trial missions that were in the first game, but it was much longer which I think made up for it.

There are still a few time trials I need to finish actually :/

Do the top-down sections in most of the Contras count?

i stopped playing jak 2 once you have to diffuse the mines in the lake. timed segments in a a platformer suck.

sly didnt bother me much nor does ratchet and clank.

I thought the story in Omikron started out really interesting. Then, halfway through the game or something, it went to hell.

It was the same in Timesplitters 3 when you had to "hack the code" by joining the various lines together on one of the missions; I think it was on Neo Tokyo, but I'm not sure. That really pissed me off.

An action game is an action game, not a game with an annoying puzzle in it, and some shooting on top.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by burky

It was the same in Timesplitters 3 when you had to "hack the code" by joining the various lines together on one of the missions; I think it was on Neo Tokyo, but I'm not sure. That really pissed me off.

An action game is an action game, not a game with an annoying puzzle in it, and some shooting on top.

---

i think you had to do that in either ratchet or jak 2........i hated it as well.

The end boss of Ratchet and Clank 3 wins the award for best boss in a platformer this generation. Both parts.

I don't remember how that fight went, never the less RaC: UYA is still the best platformer this generation.

I'm sad that a lot of the good platformers these days have guns, and nothing's really matched mario 64 to me since gaming went 3d. Everything feels like Crash Bandicoot with bigger levels, and I wasn't really fond of Crash.

Whatever the hell that sporting event in FFX was. "Blitzball". Tedious minigame for an already tiresome game.

I thought the Sly games were really easy (my favorite platformers this generation too). Sly 2 was better than the first in everyway, much to do with the pacing. The mini games break up the gameplay at just the right times and offer something different to do. Plus, they don't last that long. And while I'm throwing praise, the level design is awesome too.

The Gummi Ship sequences in Kingdom Hearts. All I wanted was a decent action RPG, and they gotta throw that crap into the mix.

But you don't have to do the Gummi Ship stuff to my knowledge. I know I still haven't touched it (beyond the first few minutes when I realized it sucked).

[edit]: oh, you mean the actual flying parts. yeah, those are lame but you can skip those too eventually i think.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mzo

It was totally Solar Jetman, and you suck. That level was awesome.

---

Whatever. When I'm playing a beat-em-up, then I would prefer to stick to just that. If I wanted to play Solar Jetman, I would play Solar Jetman. It ruins the pacing of the game.

At the very least, it shouldn't be a mandatory level.

Besides being an altogether bad game, Dead to Rights was somehow made worse with the minigame portions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Compass

[edit]: oh, you mean the actual flying parts. yeah, those are lame but you can skip those too eventually i think.

---

Really? I never got that far in the game due to playing too many games at once at the time. Skipping those flying parts between levels may have helped.

The heck does a spaceship have to do with Gummi Bears anyway?

Once you start to deck out the gummi ship it starts to be kind of fun. I put so many guns on my ship I cold just hold down fire and nothing ever touched me, even without moving.

I still hope it doesn't return for the sequal though.

I ran my Gummi ship into the wall the entire trip and did not die. I don't know if it is possible to die.

I know it is optional.... but playing 20 hours of Blitzball in FFX just to get Wakka's ultimate weapon really sucked.

Is it possible to win the very first blitzball game? Because I refused to continue the game since I couldn't win.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cowutopia

Is it possible to win the very first blitzball game? Because I refused to continue the game since I couldn't win.

---

You can, and the following cinema is actually somewhat different. They're all holding a big-ass trohpy.

Grrr...

Blitzball was the worst.

I loved me some FFX, but I could not tolerate blitzball.

Ack.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cowutopia

Is it possible to win the very first blitzball game? Because I refused to continue the game since I couldn't win.

---

Same thing happened to me.

That was so terrible. I thought Tidus was supposed to be godly at it, he sucked cock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regus

The shooter minigames in Gunstar Heroes

---

I don't remember GSH having any sort of minigames. I liked every moment of that game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kedawa

I don't remember GSH having any sort of minigames. I liked every moment of that game.

---

Don't get me wrong, I love Gunstar, but the last levels took place on a space ship, but to get on it you had to go through this obnoxious horizontal shooter minigame stage which was both tedious and pointless. A real low point in the game.

I remember that vaguely, so I guess it wasn't that good.
It usually sucks when a game has parts that don't fit naturally into the overall gameplay.
That being said, I thought Jojo's Bizzare Adventure was one game that was better for having all those goofy minigames, even though none of them were particularly good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Wilykat

Whatever the hell that sporting event in FFX was. "Blitzball". Tedious minigame for an already tiresome game.

---

God, I hated Blitzball! It would have been cool if you just controlled the players manually and had special attacks but it was all number based and confusing. You know, FFX had some of the most annoying mini games ever. Dodging lightening bolts and chasing butterflies was not my idea of a good time. I never beat the hellish Chocobo race with the fucking worst controls ever to get Tidus Ultimate Weapon. Fuck those Chocobos! Luckily those games were optional, but still being the completist that I am, it drove me nuts. Also, the shooter bits in Jade Empire, while not bad, could have been done a lot better.

I didn't mind FF VII's Chocobo racing (or any of the Golden Saucer games), but God, those FF X things just sucked. The cinemas made Blitzball seem exciting, and it could have been, if it was real-time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by animegirl

God, I hated Blitzball! It would have been cool if you just controlled the players manually and had special attacks but it was all number based and confusing. You know, FFX had some of the most annoying mini games ever. Dodging lightening bolts and chasing butterflies was not my idea of a good time. I never beat the hellish Chocobo race with the fucking worst controls ever to get Tidus Ultimate Weapon. Fuck those Chocobos! Luckily those games were optional, but still being the completist that I am, it drove me nuts. Also, the shooter bits in Jade Empire, while not bad, could have been done a lot better.

---

I totally forgot about the Chocobo race. That was bad, but it was more frustrating than tedious. It took me about 2 hours to got lucky enough and made it through. But it was pointless as well.

The Breath of Fire series (3 especially) really ruined themselves with a lot of side game "musts". It's not a game if you're forced to do it. I haven't played Dragon Quarter and I loved BoF 1 and 2. Breath of Fire 3 was the game that broke the jRPG genre for me.

Im really not digging Half-Life 2's vehicle stages, though the car stage is a little bit better than the boat stage (since you have to get out of the car a lot, and the drive reminds me of the PCH - if I didnt know better, Id say City 17 = San Fran, at least in spirit).

Any square game has the worst mini games ever. I cant think of any that were good. The horrid FF7 snowboarding one comes to mind.

The FF8 card game wasnt bad.

The KOTOR one was though.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Johnny Undaunted

My vote would go to the asteroid level (Stage 4 IIRC) in Battletoads/Double Dragon. The whole game and concept is pretty stupid by itself in retrospect (especially when you consider that they messed up half of the characters' names from the Double Dragon side), but the Asteroid level really ruins whatever amusement you could have from the game. The controls are very cumbersome in that portion of the game and yet (it's tank scheme basically), you're required to move fast agaisnt the incoming enemies. Then for some reason, they change the controls halfway when you start fighting agaisnt the really frustrating boss.

---

In retrospect, that whole game was nothing more than a hurried, half-assed side-scroller (as you pointed out, Billy and Jimmy wore the wrong outfit colors, most of the stages were just a long string of recycled background/enemies, etc.) trying to capitalize on Tradewest's two biggest intellectual properties, but for some reason, I always love making an occasional one credit attempt.

I've owned the SNES version for over a decade, but thanks to that ill-conceived Asteroids level, I still can't one credit the game, because I usually lose at least five or more lives on that stage.

Would you like to try a game of Lucky Hit?

I'd much rather race some ducks, then find sailors.

Donkey Kong 64 requiring you to basically beat two games to get to the final boss, while not "mini-games" in the traditional sense, certainly made the game more tiresome.

I agree with the speedbike things in battletoads. To the day I have never gotten past those levels on any of the games. I love battletoads, but you can only play the first 2 levels so many times... :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jeremy

I'd much rather race some ducks, then find sailors.

Donkey Kong 64 requiring you to basically beat two games to get to the final boss, while not "mini-games" in the traditional sense, certainly made the game more tiresome.

---

I did all that crap to unlock the secret ending. Fuck I wish I could go back in time.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NApOLm321

I agree with the speedbike things in battletoads. To the day I have never gotten past those levels on any of the games. I love battletoads, but you can only play the first 2 levels so many times... :

---

The thing about the speederbike segments in both the original Battletoads and its arcade sequel Battletoads in Battlemania is that even though each expedition is extremely difficult and inherently reliant on reflexes and/or some rote memorization, the controls are fluid and all the obstacles are possible to avoid (with proper practice, one can beat both speederbike scenarios without losing a life).

In contrast, the scurrilous ship-flying segment in Battletoads/Double Dragon: The Ultimate Team has a crappy, convoluted control scheme that's made all the more aggravating by some sloppy design flaws like frequent floating projectiles that are literally unavoidable due to the aforementioned control setup and a totally random/unnecessary alteration of said controls during the final, frustrating boss fight.

The thing about Battletoad's turbo tunnel that always bugged me was that I would die on the ramps all the time. Even though I knew for a fact that I pressed the button at the right time, my guy had some sort of delayed reaction when it came to jumping off the ramps, which always ended in me cheaply falling into the pit.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by diffusionx

The FF8 card game wasnt bad.

---

Triple Triad was good enough to stand on it's own.

I laugh at Tetra Master (the card game from FF9).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regus

- The turbo tunnel in Battletoads.

---

It was awesome!

Quote:

---

- The shooter minigames in Gunstar Heroes and The Adventures of Batman and Robin.

---

Awesome (note the capital 'a')...okay, so I'm a big fan of Seven Force...the batman stage was just alright.

Seriously, when any game throws something at you that's required, but not in line with player expectation (like a space shooter level in a platform shooter) you risk asking too much of the player. I know some people who to this day never finished the turbo tunnel. It would seem the modern developers usually err on the side of introducing another genre just to spice things up, while going out of their way to avoid being challenging so that they don't make another "turbo tunnel". Problem is that I typically stop playing long games that don't challenge me at all, so Sly, Jak, and Ape Escape 2 are games that I've played, but won't go through the technicality of beating.

For Battletoads, I think the suction cup-cycle stage (10, I think) was the lamest thing ever. You lost speed if you weren't trying to turn at exactly the moment they wanted you to and it was a totally new play mechanic introduced really late into the game. I only got to fighting the orb once and it was incredibly annoying to have to play for a couple of hours to get back to that point.

Also, if the rest of the game wasn't so flawed, the mini-games in dead to rights would have ruined it for many. The stripper game was boring, the helicopter shooting was okay, but no better than in GTA:VC, and the bomb diffusal game was a bit too hard (I only had about 5 second left on the last bomb and I don't know how I could have gone any faster).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regus

The thing about Battletoad's turbo tunnel that always bugged me was that I would die on the ramps all the time. Even though I knew for a fact that I pressed the button at the right time, my guy had some sort of delayed reaction when it came to jumping off the ramps, which always ended in me cheaply falling into the pit.

---

You weren't supposed to press the button. Also, you shouldn't steer up or down in the air. Now if someone would tell me how to beat stage 10...

Quote:

---

You weren't supposed to press the button. Also, you shouldn't steer up or down in the air.

---

WTF!

You make me want to reconnect my NES and try that. Still though, WTF, those fucking bikes allowed you to jump over walls and shit, so I simply thought that if I jumped on the ramps I would get a boost and jump higher, not drop like a turd into the pits. WTF Rare? As for not moving in mid air, I could've sworn that there were parts in which a wall would be placed in your path miliseconds after a jump during the faster areas of the tunnel which forced you to move in mid air, but what do I know I haven't played this game in years.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Regus

Still though, WTF, those fucking bikes allowed you to jump over walls and shit, so I simply thought that if I jumped on the ramps I would get a boost and jump higher, not drop like a turd into the pits. WTF Rare?

---

And when that didn't work, wouldn't you try something else? That's pretty owned, though =(

If you press down too far in the air, you can fall off and die. Pressing right moves you forward and can help you make some of the jumps. I really don't remember any point where you have to move up and down in the air, really.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Mzo

And when that didn't work, wouldn't you try something else?

---

Yeah, I did try something else: a better game! lolz :(

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

The Breath of Fire series (3 especially) really ruined themselves with a lot of side game "musts". It's not a game if you're forced to do it. I haven't played Dragon Quarter and I loved BoF 1 and 2. Breath of Fire 3 was the game that broke the jRPG genre for me.

---

Yes! I was about to mention the BOF series for their mini-games, and for them being mandatory, especially BOF3 with that silly well-water lifting game, and traversing the ship through the water maze.

I'll also have to mention just about every Rare N64 3D platformer, sans Conker's Bad Fur Day. Overall I enjoyed them, but not only were there WAY too many mini-games, but some of them were plain silly, and didn't really connect to anything else in the game except for them taking up space on the cartridge.,

I quit playing BoF4 when I wound up playing some shitty mode7 looking plain running bullshit

I memorized the speeder bike stage (at least the first one) in Battletoads and beat it consistently, once I got good at it it was pretty exhilirating to be going so fast during those final sections (even though it was a smarter course of action to just take the warp during that stage). I'm pretty sure I only got past the snakes stage a couple times, there were so many blind jumps of faith that I never memorized the proper course of action. Rough game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Error

Sly Cooper is the best platformer of this generation.

---

IBTN. The only 3D platformer better was Mario 64.

I didnt play Sly Cooper because animal mascots are stupid and shitty.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by diffusionx

I didnt play Sly Cooper because animal mascots are stupid and shitty.

---

I feel the same way. I've probably missed out on a few fun games because of it, but I refuse to support the animal-mascot-platformer genre. These stupid cheeseball mascots, even Sonic (well, especially Sonic) should have died out ten years ago.

The gameplay would be just as good if the characters were ninjas or soldiers or something.

Ya see, there you're wrong. Sly Cooper is played in the world of a cartoon, basically. The graphics are cell shaded to set the tone, not to catch a fad. And the Sly character so perfectly suits the gameworld that if you were to change it to a ninja or a soldier you'd have I-Ninja or something. Good, but not nearly good enough. I do think that in many ways the Sly Cooper franchise actually benefits from being Sony's third string franchise in that aspect, as Ratchet and Jak seem to have filled that mascot role, allowing Sly to just be an awesome game.

I thought BoF3's mini-games gave the game an added bonus. That remains as my favorite RPGs of all time.

A game I feel has ridiculous mini-games is Mario and Luigi Superstar Saga. Getting the pieces of the Star and all that shit just annoyed me.

Zelda:WW - Sorting mail

FFX-2: Blitzball got even worse.

I actually liked blitzball in FFX and loved going up to random people and recruiting them for my team i'd take that over any card game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by kedawa

I feel the same way. I've probably missed out on a few fun games because of it, but I refuse to support the animal-mascot-platformer genre. These stupid cheeseball mascots, even Sonic (well, especially Sonic) should have died out ten years ago.

The gameplay would be just as good if the characters were ninjas or soldiers or something.

---

Exactly!

Because what we really need is for all games to look exactly the same, with the same brown washed out "gritty" real life graphics.

For what it's worth though, I thought that both character designs in Sly Cooper and Ratchet were horrible when they were first announced and vowed never to play them...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raz0r

I thought BoF3's mini-games gave the game an added bonus. That remains as my favorite RPGs of all time.

---

Hah, you are my friend!

I loved the minigames in both BoF3 and 4. BoF4 is one of the best and underated rpgs of all time IMO.

Wait Kidnemo, so you are saying that the solution to the brown washed out gritty real life graphics are... cartoon animal mascot platformers.

Come on, that shit was played out in 1994 and you know it.

Nah, I was mostly just taking a jab at him saying that the recent wave of animal mascot platformers would somehow be more appealing with soldiers.

If you see Sly 1 or 2 in motion I would be suprised if somebody didn't think it was a slickly designed game even if they don't like the animal-centric nature of the characters.

And hell, I'm probably not the best person to ask about animal mascot platformers, I just played Sonic 2 today. haha

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Kidnemo

Exactly!

Because what we really need is for all games to look exactly the same, with the same brown washed out "gritty" real life graphics.

---

Ninjas and soldiers are only two examples. I could have just as easily used pirates, robots, zombies, milkmen, etc.

And I never said anything about the graphics. I like bright colors and cartoon-style graphics as much as anybody else.

Animals with human characteristics have been a part of literature and art for as long as literature and art have been around, in addition to being a staple of animation for the past century.

I have trouble buying the idea that it suddenly lost all steam in 1994.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DirtySouth

Yes! I was about to mention the BOF series for their mini-games, and for them being mandatory, especially BOF3 with that silly well-water lifting game, and traversing the ship through the water maze.

---

I think that's the EXACT SAME mini-game that forced me to stop playing BoF 3 out of frustration. I was digging the story and the progression and we just got that armadillo strongman guy and we were stuck doing shitty chores like a bitch.

lol. I find it funny how accurately the mini-game that I hate the most was pinpointed.

I have no problem with Sly Cooper himself, but all of these second string back characters have got to go.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Andrew

I have no problem with Sly Cooper himself, but all of these second string back characters have got to go.

---

Bah!

Bentley is the bomb, I don't care what you say.

*shakes fist*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by sethsez

Animals with human characteristics have been a part of literature and art for as long as literature and art have been around, in addition to being a staple of animation for the past century.

I have trouble buying the idea that it suddenly lost all steam in 1994.

---

Platforming games with these animal mascots, whether being overtly cute or with-an-attitude, most definitely lost all steam in 1994. Some good ones have come out since... I guess... but I think the best animal-character games have been the nonplatformers, like, say, Fur Fighters.

Of course, the rise of furries havent really helped this segment of character design.

I'm wearing a female horse suit with a huge erect phallus coming out of the crotch right now oddly enough.