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I didn't realize that the Saturn came out 10 years ago last May. Time goes by too fast.
Yeah, so probably most of us already know this stuff, and what info is here is pretty vague, but there are some quotes from Tom Kalinski and Victor Ireland. Also there's an interesting sidebar on the horrible US controller (focus testing.. bah!).
The article is linked here.
So discuss the Saturn, if you wanna.
Other than DDR and ITG, I play my Saturn more than all my other consoles combined.
Wow. There's actually new (to me at least) information in there. I never realized that the Saturn architecture was a result of a Chinese fire drill to combat the PS1's architecture.
Holy Hell, it's been ten years already. Damn. It feels like yesterday that I was opening the box and playing Virtua Fighter for hours on end. Thanks for linking us to this piece, it'll be a great trip down memory lane. I think I'll play some Saturn stuff later today to celebrate.
Hmm, this sounds awfully familiar.Quote:
Originally Posted by The 1up Saturn article
This article totally shows what happens when you fail to listen to the marketplace and insist that your own self-imposed bubble is superior.
Their marketing was awful (except for NiGHTS, which somehow turned into an A-list product), their hardware was crap, and most of the games worth a damn stayed in Japan. Sony just killed them, it was unbelievable. And then they turned around and tried to rebuild the FUBAR'd Sega brand for Dreamcast, which sunk even faster than the Saturn.
I wished they spoke to Bernie Stolar for a bit of balance.
Stolar comes off as the villain here, but I'm sure he must have had a rationale for his decisions.
=\ do you always have to be so negative when you point this out? You act like sega raped your dog.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Eh, he acts like everyone raped his dog. He does bring up good points here. I'm still amazed that the DC sank faster than the Saturn, in spite of its far superior games and marketing campaign. That just goes to show how much damage was truly done by the Saturn.
The Dreamcast's marketing was awful, and SegaNet was an abortion that lived.
The DC really had no chance, Sega shouldnt have even bothered. If they put JGR on PS2 instead I would at least be able to play it without hooking up my DC (and Im too lazy to do that, so no JGR for me).
Found this just a minute ago on accident...It's not all Saturn stuff (okay, it's like two things actually), but there's some oddities there I never knew existed. A Sega Saturn camera?
lol the Pri-Fun is on there... I remember buying that thing for $10 at EB. Seems to be the most rare, but most worthless thing I have in my game collection.
OH and the Sakura Wars DC, anyone wanna buy it?
Well to be fair, the Saturn is no where near as bad as the GameCube or the Revulationwtfever. It is one thing to make a console on your past experience (super 2D system) and putting out a shitty system that is inferior to TWO HUGE and AWESOME, and BETTER systems right in front of you.
"Back in 1985, when Nintendo successfully resurrected the videogame industry in the U.S."
That's as far as I got. Now that I've been re-educated on the fact that games were alive and kicking on computers during the console crash, I can't stand to see others still shooting off that they were dead.
Yeah, they really should specify home consoles in the U.S., but it's just faster to say it that way. The downside to it is that it leads to revisionist history being taken as fact.
I shot the president is a faster way of saying I shot a photograph of the president using my new camera. It's still misleading and wrong.
I agree, I'm just trying to offer up a logical solution as to why it's written like that.
Someone do me a favor...I have no idea why but I can't get to 1UP on my computer with Firefox OR IE. The page just never opens, so someone be my hero and paste the article here. I really want to read it.
The funny this is that I knew maybe 2 other people besides me that had a Saturn, and they all got it when it was cheaper.... yet, I knew about 15 people with a Dreamcast, and when I went to college, I saw even more people with it (big in the sports gaming crowd).Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
I came in late for Saturn. It was already down to $99 or so, and included full versions of Daytona USA, Virtua Fighter 2 and Virtua Cop. Picked it up just to import X-Men vs. Street Fighter and Darkstalkers 3, as well as Marvel Super Heroes vs. Streetfighter and Cyberbots. I enjoyed it for what it was worth!
It really wasn't a bad system like so many like to claim it was. I still think Virtua Fighter 2 and Sega Rally are fairly easy on the eyes, and it’s hard to say that with a lot of games from that era. The Shenmue demo is actually quite impressive for the Saturn.
Hindsight is 20/20, of course, but I guess Sega's main mistake with the Saturn occurred early on.. I don't think they were forward-thinking enough with the hardware. Assuming the Saturn was in development throughout 1992 and 1993, why they would go so far with a hyper-2D machine when their arcade division was already dabbling in 3D is kind of confusing. I suppose it was due to the expense of selling a 3D chipset, but Sony found a way (by the mid-90s, anyway) to make it work--and more cheaply than Sega did.
And yeah, Saturn marketing was weak and forgettable. Anyone remember the bald chick with the rings around her head?
IMO the Saturn hardware was more than able for it's time. It could do just about everything the PS could do. And it was far better in the 2D department.
I still think Sega should've just went with Model 2 technology. That would've given the Saturn more than enough muscle to go toe to toe with the PlayStation in the 3D department, and being that Lockheed freakin' Martin was making the damn things, I'm sure they could've found a way to mass produce them thus making them cheap.
Well, the first Model 2 game came out in 1995, IIRC. The Saturn was released in Japan the year before that. I doubt it would have been feasible to get the arcade technology in the home for an affordable price.
Though it happened later with Naomi and Dreamcast!
Naomi and DC were conceived and designed from the ground up to be in arcade and home from the get go.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Ranza
Model 2 is just a bulky massive piece of computer. Impressive graphics, but a monster of a machine.
There are pics of Model 2 at System 16.com. Looks like there are 3 separate boards.
We're talking about videogames. Relax.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraftwerks
The Model 2 was out before the Saturn. Daytona was a game being brought over from the Model 2 to the Saturn.
If I'm not mistaken, isn't the Naomi larger than the DC?
If I'm not mistaken, arcade hardware is usually larger due to the types of chipsets used (I remember reading arcades use a lot of ZIF chips to facilitate repairs and upgrades).
One of those boards is the ROM board, which if memory serves me correct is the game itself.
Though I'm in doubt about their accuracy, the 1UP article claims the Saturn was a combination of the System 32 board and the Model 1 arcade board. Both those boards are larger than the Model 2.
I think this could've been done.
Are you talking physically larger? The Naomi is a tad larger than the DC but not by much. The only Naomi I've ever seen is the cartridge based one, never seen the GD based one. The Naomi does have more memory than the DC, if that's more what you meant by that statement. I believe (correct me if I'm wrong) the additional memory is the only difference from the DC.
What a load of bull. Sega put a ton of effort into the DC as a system (much more than the Saturn and arguably more effort than Nintendo has put into making a diverse lineup on the GC), the system WAS a success here in the U.S. and had plenty of successful titles such as the 2K games, it was Sega's burning stock in Japan that killed it. If Sega had a fallback plan and was at least able to enjoy the muted success Nintendo enjoys in Japan the DC would have still survived in the U.S. and Europe easily.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Never mind how many people loved playing DC games online, me included. I didn't need to subscribe to Seganet either. Hey, free online games, kind of like free online gaming on the PS2, huh? I guess Sony's online strategy is an "abortion" too?
Not to say Sega didn't make a ton of missteps, that goes without saying, but as others will no doubt attest to, you sound like a complete and utterly biased fool when you say "they didn't put enough effort into marketing" then contradict yourself when you say "they shouldn't have even tried" (considering one of the things you always accuse companies of like Nintendo is "they aren't trying, they're too caught up in themselves and their current course of action/refusal to try new things blah blah, ect. ect. Typical retarded, hypocritical and jaded internet fanboy nonsense parading as expert commentary. At least people knew the DC existed and it had a ton more TV ads than the Saturn ever did.
And JGR would not have sold well regardless if it was put on PS2, that was a single, unique title people simply did not catch on to. And your followup quip is that you were too tired to switch out the AV cables and hook up your DC to play it? haha
Ironically, JGR's TV ad was one of the few DC ads I did not like. They should have poured more effort into TV ads for Shenmue and PSO.
Sega made a ton of missteps, and I'm glad SOMEONE was willing to make them.
true. i just wish more people would read The Scribe's SEGA history before they blab off the usual "anti-DC/Saturn" drevel that always comes up. because the people that actually KNOW why the systems failed are laughing at the ones that don't at this very moment.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan1CC
you can no longer troll here not knowing this fact. you bring shame to the under bridge dwellers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
I didnt say they didnt put enough effort into marketing, I said their marketing was terrible. And it was.Quote:
Not to say Sega didn't make a ton of missteps, that goes without saying, but as others will no doubt attest to, you sound like a complete and utterly biased fool when you say "they didn't put enough effort into marketing" then contradict yourself when you say "they shouldn't have even tried"
And I say they shouldnt have tried because the Sega brand had no value in it after the SegaCD, the 32X, and the Saturn. I knew people, plenty of people who bought a Saturn and only had to buy a PlayStation shortly after to play new games. A lot of those people were Genesis fans, but do you think any of them bothered with Dreamcast? A lot of analysts said that the Dreamcast would have a tough go because of the damage Sega did to their brand, and guess what, they were right! Use your head.
Thats nice, but read early articles on Sega's strategy, online was supposed to figure prominently and be their main weapon against PS2. What ended up coming out was a laggy, awful nightmare, filled with crappy games and hard-to-find broadband adapters. SegaNet was a nonstarter, it went nowhere, and it got them no new customers. It was a failure. I played three or four games for it: Chu Chu Rocket was laggy as fuck, Daytona USA was a sorry sorry joke, PSO was a substandard Diablo clone, and Unreal Tournament was nifty but not nearly as good as the PC game. Not impressive.Quote:
And Seganet was an abortion, never mind how many people loved playing DC games online, me included.
It just wouldve been better if they went third party way before they did. Because now theyre terrible, and it wouldve been cool if some of their good DC games ended up on PS2.
Model 2 was also fairly expensive. Its not like today, where most arcade boards are built on game consoles (System 11, based on PSX, started this). Arcade boards back then were engineered to be high performance and high price. You couldnt really cram a Model 2 into an affordable system.Quote:
I think this could've been done.
Did I call for a boycott or something? We are talking videogames, and as such should be talking about them accurately when possible. I would think that the hundreds of developers who were creating computer games during that era would appreciate receiving a little credit and attention.
you speak the truth but its never remembered that way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraftwerks
1."The brand"? Is that all that matters to you? Regardless, the Sega name still had goodwill from the Genesis days. Not to say that was enough, but at least they tried to build on it with a lineup of games that was far beyond what the Saturn offered (non import)Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
2. It was widely pointed out in reviews that Chu Chu and Daytona were lagged. What's your point? Those were the exception. Other games like Alien Front Online, the 2K series and PSO were remarkably smooth for dial up connection. Besides, this was before BB became the standard anyways. The people that played PSO, still do and will with PSO Universe won't give a crap that you think that it's a "Diablo clone."
So? I knew plenty of people like me, who bought a DC who were disappointed....when Sega's stock in Japan killed a system they were thoroughly enjoying which had a ton of great games to choose from. Of course the PS2 would have outsold it regardless. That is a non point. The fact is though if their bottom line hadn't exploded the system would still continue to have sold well which it DID in the U.S. and Europe. It had a mind blowingly successful launch in North America, people could not wait to get their hands on it and lined up to buy it, despite the fact that "Sega killed all its goodwill." Again. Sega's stock in Japan killed it. End of story.Quote:
I knew people, plenty of people who bought a Saturn and only had to buy a PlayStation shortly after to play new games.
If anything, Sega has made more mistakes as a third party then they ever did with the DC.
I understand that the Model 2 was expensive and proprietary. I do agree that it would've been an undertaking to get that board small enough and cheap enough to mass produce. But I believe the company that made it (Lockheed Martin) could have done just that. They have the technical know-how, what with being one of the leading manufacturers (sp?) of combat technology.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
I remember seeing the Saturn being initially sold from as 'low' as $399.99 to as high as $599.99 back when it was launched in 1995. Granted, Sega of America itself was caught off guard selling the system early as it did, and hindsight is always much clearer than the present... but even early on when they announced the Saturn, it occured to me as strange that they didn't use what they had under their noses. At any rate, for $400.00 to $600.00, I would have rather had a Model 2.
Not saying anyone is 'wrong' or 'right', but remember those Final Fantasy 7 ads Squaresoft ran stating how FF7 would retail for over $1,000.00 if it were on cartridge? Roughly two years later, Capcom manages to get Resident Evil 2 (a far more graphically intense game than FF7) on the N64 for less than $100.00? $79.99 if I recall correct? That's how I feel about a Model 2 based Saturn. The whole 'it'd be too expensive' argument just doesn't hold quite as much weight due to the fact that no one tried.
But again, for better or worse, the Saturn is history. Anything said now about what should've and could've been is speculation and opinion.
Oops, you're right. Daytona came out in 1993, apparently. My memory fails meh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
Both System 32 and Model 1 were powered by an NEC processor, so yeah, unlike the Genesis' relationship to System 16, Saturn bears no resemblance to Sega's arcade hardware of the time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
I gotta disagree. There's just no way anyone, even Lockheed, could take an arcade board that costs thousands of dollars, adapt it for consumer use, and get it out at a reasonable price point. I mean, I'm sure it could have been done, but if it was so expensive that no one would buy it, there would be no point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
Naomi redeemed the dev factor of their arcade sector big time.
Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
so you wouldn't have to drag out your DC to play the games you like?
boohoohoo T_T
ain't that the truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan1CC
diffx already covered this. JGR is the only game left on the DC that didn't get ported and is worth playing. That's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
Eh, its not that simple. First of all, there was no way it couldve been done in merely a year's time, which is all they had when it came time to redesign the system. If they started out from day one as trying to build a home console Model 2, it could have possibly been done, but even then Im not quite sure (SGI did do some tricks like that with the N64). Lockheed's a company that maybe was building arcade boards but not willing to put the work into manufacturering the volume of home console boards.Quote:
But I believe the company that made it (Lockheed Martin) could have done just that. They have the technical know-how, what with being one of the leading manufacturers (sp?) of combat technology.
As for the RE2/FF7 comment, you're way off base. Square was just referring to storage space, and FF7 was 3 CDs compared to RE2's 2. Even if RE2 looked better FF7 took up more space, what with all the cinemas, and RE2 had no cinemas. Angel Studios compressed the backgrounds and shit hardcore to get RE2 on N64... that still doesnt deal with FF7's cinemas.
I know, what I said was in refrence to that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Carry on. I'm still learning to translate Mississipian.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
No, it really couldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by JefmcC
People still play that crappy Diablo clone?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dylan1CC
yes it could, or at least come really close, if people put time into it. Shit like Panzar Dragoon Saga looked like tits and ass when it came out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint of Killers
I'm not going to sit here and argue specific games with you, but you're wrong. The PSX smoked the Saturn for 3D.
He is, unfortunately, right. Look at Tomb Raider, for example. The game began life on the Saturn, and yet the PS1 version was vastly superior.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint of Killers
The best 3D saturn games looked as good if not better than PSX games out at the same time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint of Killers
Period.
If you don't want to accept that, whatever.
So who's fault was Sega's shitty stock performance in Japan? Im sure a lot of Sega fanboys will say Sony, but get real: Sega mismanaged the whole deal and fucked up. The system barely sold in Japan and its US performance, while an improvement over the Saturn, wasnt all that great, and game sales were dismal.Quote:
Sega's stock in Japan killed it. End of story.
The top 1% of Saturn games looked about as good as the top 10% or 20% of PSX games (but the top 1% of PSX looked way better than anything on Saturn). The games that looked best on the system, like Radiant Silvergun, really played to the system's 2D strengths - the purely 3D games on Saturn suffered next to the purely 3D games of PSX.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
VF2 looked great, but later 3D fighters didnt look nearly as good, NiGHTS had a great visual design but was loaded with pixelly textures and draw-in, etc.
MGS3 looks better than alot of Xbox games and Capcom's apparently working miracles with the RE4 port but I'm not going argue that the PS2 is just as powerful as Xbox or Gamecube.Quote:
Originally Posted by IronPlant
that was mainly because getting the saturn to do 3D very well was like getting blood from a rock. It was only at the end of the saturn's life that anyone really knew how to get it to do PSX level 3D games. At that point the system was already dead.Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
It isn't so much that the PSX could do it better as it was a 100 times easier to get it to do it.
No you originally said it couldn't do it. There is a difference between hardware power, and what companies can get a console to do.Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint of Killers
If you said that the PSX was a more powerful system when it came to doing 3D games, no one would be arguing with you.
you chose your words poorly.
When I said it couldn't do everything the PSX could do I meant it couldn't handle 3D nearly as well. I didn't mean it couldn't do 3D at all.
Why the fuck am I arguing semantics with a functional illiterate?
you know, this has always been floating around in my head.
Princess Crown was often referred to as a high point in Saturn 2D, but I've never heard of a 3D Saturn game referred to in the same respect. What game would you point people towards to wow them with the 3D capabilities? I remember being very impressed with Grandia.
At the time I thought burning rangers and PDS were both very good at doing 3D. But I might be wrong. It has been a year or two since I played either.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraftwerks
because you're a rude ass of a person?Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint of Killers
Most of the stuff by AM2 and AM3 served as good examples of Saturn 3D. Fighters Megamix made good use of the hardware, but its ugly gourad-shaded look was always a turn-off for me.
One of the most striking visual differences in PSX and Saturn 3D are the transparencies. I remember seeing comparisons of Battle Arena Toshinden and Resident Evil. On both platforms, the graphics were similar (though I seem to remember the Saturn versions being more pixellated), but any areas with transparent poloygons were simply a mess in the Saturn version.
If I remember correctly they had to use tricks to get around that as the saturn just about could not do transparencies at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ex Ranza
What about the Lobotomy games?? They did Powerslave, Duke Nukem 3D and Quake and I thought they looked great for Saturn games. Powerslave and Duke 3D were both very fast and all three had some decent light sourcing at the time.
Obviously their ports of Duke 3D and Quake are not as good as the pc versions but they were still fine.
I can't think of any other strong 3D titles for the Saturn... Dead or Alive I thought looked as good as VF2 but they share the same engine no? Same goes for Last Bronx right?
The Clockwork Knight series looks pretty good though they are not free roaming 3D games but I think everything was done with polygons anyways even if the gameplay is 2D style.
I never got to play any of the Lobotomy games, but GameFan did rave about their graphical quality. This was also around the same time mentions of the Dural and/or Black Belt started to appear in the GameFan rumor section.Quote:
Originally Posted by raystorm
VF2 and DOA did share the same engine, at least in arcades, but I'm not sure about Last Bronx.
Clockwork Knight was the 2nd Saturn game I ever played.. couldn't believe the line scrolling effect on all the objects as you walked along, and it took me a while to figure out that those were polygons making those effects. :)
I don't know why the Saturn port of Quake was so praised. It wasn't even remotely close to the PC version and the gameplay felt off too. Duke was ported very nicely though.
I don't think the differences in hardware were as drastic as that. The Saturn's 3D looked like ass not because the hardware was incapable, but because you had to make it jump through too many hoops to get the desired results. Tomb Raider is a good example of this. The game could have looked much better, but would have taken much longer and been much harder to do to get it to look like the PS version. The fact that Sega wouldn't share its development libraries with 3rd parties only made this more apparent. There's a reason why AM2's stuff looked so much better, especially the big Christmas releases (VF2 and Sega Rally).Quote:
Originally Posted by Saint of Killers
Hmmmmmm......think again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowdisease
Nintendo's rapidly falling market share disagrees with you.
The Saturn was, in some ways, way way ahead of it's time. Unfortunately that was probably by accident and because Sony 1-up'd them with the PSX at the last minute. It was a disfunctional combination of a few great hardware ideas completely overshadowed by too many underpowered and poorely designed parts. Programming on that thing was nothing but a chore.
The PSX on the other hand, was the right combination of forward thinking and practicality.
Ignoring the petty squabling going on here, the original article referenced is a decent read, but it's not perfect.
As someone mentioned, the anti-Bernie Stolar comments were pretty one-sided. While I'm sure Bernie did harm the US Saturn's chances, there is not enough information to conjecture why. I mean, if the previous president was a puppet for SoJ, then who is to say that Bernie killing US support was solely his sadistic decision? And even if it was his choice, was the US market viable to merit releasing games such as Grandia? The fact that Burning Rangers, Shining Force III, and Panzer Dragoon Saga came out at all is something to be celebrated. These games were translated and released -after- the US SS was dead.
The article is also pretty inaccurate IMO as far as 3rd party support goes. While the US SS library is limited, it did not stop many Japanese 3rd parties from developing. I love the Saturn and have come to appreciate it as the best system ever because of the sheer variety of games that came out for it. It had tons of gems - some very well known, others not so much. The 2D games are superb (Thunderforce series, Capcom 4MB fighters, etc). It had some unique takes on 3D (Gun Griffon, etc... though this is mostly where 1st party games shined). And an assortment of great adventure/RPG/strategy games (Langrisser, Grandia, Chaos Seed, Tactics Ogre etc). As far as Japanese style gaming is concerned, they didn't hold back.
If you look at the SS vs DC, where Sega went wrong is in the censorship. Laugh if you must, but I feel that the SS gained a faithful following because it was the one system at the time that allowed H games. And because of the H, many people flocked to it and thus companies could release regular games... good games... because the installed base warranted it. Sega went clean with the DC and it never took off in Japan despite Sega's brilliance as a 1st party developer for it. It is the DC that didn't get the Jp 3rd party support. It might have been a temporary success in the states, but Japan never shared that enthusiasm. I believe the lack of H had a lot to do with that. After the DC went boom, a few CERO18 games were released for the system but by then it was a bit too late.
:rolleyes:Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Thanks for proving my point which was simply that Sega's situation back in Japan is mainly what killed it. I just love how it's a pre-requisite here that some folks need to refer back to previous posts.
I'd say the Saturn was a great 2D system with a mediocre 3D system slapped on. Sega miscalculated the speed that 2D would kill 3D, much like Nintendo with cartridges. All that mattered was which system had the best 3D, so the Saturn's 2D power went to waste.Quote:
Originally Posted by outRider
I agree. It's like how the SNES was faster than the Genesis, but many SNES games (especially early ones) were plagued with slowdown. A fist full of weaker processors may be better than a single superior processor, but most developers won't spend the time to do it right.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
Why do they keep letting Vic speak in public? I mean, when you read the fact that they dropped all Saturn support because Sega dissed them, that couldn't sound more childish. Hey, let's scrap all of the work we put into these games, and piss off our fans, because SOA was mean to us!
And by far, Lobotomy's stuff was the best 3D on the Saturn. They were doing things with that machine that even Sega couldn't do. Because their games, I can't really think of much 3D stuff on the Saturn even worth mentioning. It was a 2D fighter and shooter machine, and not much else. But it indeed made a handy pseudo-NeoGeo CD.
Edit: Oh, and anybody that would put the Saturn above the DC is crazy.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by RoleTroll
Fix that please.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
The differences were drastic as far as 3D was concerned, and it wasn't pretty :yuck:. Instead of using a custom vertex processor and an adequate GPU they simply threw a 2nd CPU in there and kept the lame VDPs because there was no time to design custom chips. The 2nd SH2 couldn't transform vertices faster than a dedicated unit, and the VDP1 far more suited to 2D than 3D. You really had to take a lot of shortcuts to get anything approaching full screen 3D at 30+ frames, and in the end it wasn't worth the effort to put work into it and still get results that looked like ass next to a PSX build. Whatever miscalculations Sega made on the business end, their hardware engineers missed the boat on the hardware.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoleTroll
Anyways, those were the good old days. These days everyone goes to ATI and Nvidia to get decent parts. :D
SOJ didn't want to hear the negative input from Kelinske. This guy literally made the Genesis a household name in the US, yet Japan's Megadrive wasn't a huge success. Sega lost a strong leader in Kelinske, who could have helped push the Saturn in the N. American market. Stolar did an admirable job, for what he was left with, but SOJ should have let the US market run itself as an individual company. Advertising made the Genesis a huge success here, but Saturn advertising did nothing to excite gamers into buying the Saturn over a Playstation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tsubaki
Say what you will about Sega's marketing or the Saturn's messy innards.
That console is built like a fucking tank.
The Saturn may have sold poorly, but ten years from now, there'll be more working Saturns than working PSX's.
I rented a Saturn when it was first released, and I was so disgusted with the quality of the games that I didn't even look at the system again until it was $99 with the 3-game pack-in.
I had a shitload of credit at EB at that time, and I went into the store to pick up a 3DO that was on clearance.
When I saw how cheap the Saturn and its games were, I just had to get that instead.
I picked up Last Bronx, Quake, Panzer Dragoon Zwei, Nightwarriors, Street Fighter Alpha 2, Fighters Megamix, Galactic Attack, Nights, and a few more I don't remember, none of them used, and none of them over $20.
I ended up having so much fun with my Saturn that I sold my PSX (to buy more Saturn games) and never looked back.
I bought the Saturn at launch (May) and enjoyed playing Virtual Fighter, Daytona and Pebble Beach golf. I grew tired of waiting for more titles to arrive and decided to take a chance with this new game called Panzer Dragoon. I was floored by the gameplay and graphics for the time.
Later on I bought a Playstation, because I had to play Destruction Derby and Warhawk. As time went by, I found my playing time leaning more towards the Saturn. Sure the Playstation had more eye candy, but the Saturn always had some hidden gem that offered a greater game playing experience.
The Saturn is one of my favorite console of all time. It depends on what kind of mood I'm in, but there are days/weeks when the Saturn is my all time favorite.
I got to play Burning Rangers for the first time this week thanks to the new SSF release. Fun stuff.
One of my favorites from the Saturn library. I had a Burning Rangers avatar back on the Gamego boards.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Still my favorite console to this day. I bought one with Zwei, Dark Savior, Last Bronx, Fighters Megamix, and Virtual On, plus a memory cart and arcade stick all new from Sears for 165 bones- one of the best deals I've ever had, until I got Soukyugurentai and Batsugen for 8 bucks each a 2 weeks later. I too ended up selling my PSX to feed my saturn addiction. And as far as sheer quality and craftsmanship goes, I don't think the Saturn has ever been topped.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
How good is the emulation?? I can't use SSF since I have an Athlon XP (I get some lame SSE2 error..oh well).
if you guys can find it, play Psychic Killer Taroumaru (sp?)..
it's suprisingly excellent.... but the game itself is rare as a motherfucker, though, so you may need to find an *alternate* solution.
insert credit did a review on it a while back.
http://www.insertcredit.com/reviews/taroumaru/
Most Saturn games are still too expensive. I'd like the shoot 'em ups and 2D fighting games and Elevator Action Returns but they're too dear. They'd be great buys at 5-10 units of your currency but I feel robbed paying 40 or more, which takes all the pleasure out of having and playing those games.
And there's only a handful of good cheap stuff, like SF Alpha 2, SEGA AGES, Bubble Bobble/Rainbow Islands, Sonic Jam... what else? Don't even think about mentioning Nights or any of those shit wobbly 3D games. SNES mode 7 is easier on the eye.
I have that game. Paid an assload for it too. Decent game, lot's of fun. Has a "Treasure" feel to it. Some of the bosses are really slick too.Quote:
Originally Posted by johnk_
Gotta love that big spider thing.
Another gem is Elevator Action Returns. (HA! didn't read the post above!)
Not an import, but Three Dirty Dwarves is excellent too.
It has a Treasure feel because Hiroshi Iuchi (director of RSG and Ikaruga) worked on it.
lol I never knew that. Learn shumpton new every day!Quote:
Originally Posted by Valgar
Power StoneQuote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Mars Matrix
Virtual On: Oratorio Tangram
Record of Lodoss War
Shenmue
Sega Rally 2
Last Blade 2 for less than $250.00
Cannon Spike
Heavy Metal Geomatrix
Zombie Revenge
Ill give you Oratorio Tangram from that list, and no more.
You cant possibly believe that trashy port of Sega Rally 2 is still worth a damn nowadays, you just cant.
I bought the very last Saturn Superstore had, it was the first model and they used the box as a display, that should've clued me in on it's future prospects right there. I was thinking about getting a PS after seeing Crash Bandicoot and Parappa The Rapper, but the Saturn was $50 cheaper, didn't need a memory card and came with Virtua Fighter.
Things were great for the first day or two, I had finally dipped my toes in 3D gaming and had always loved Virtua Fighter in the arcades. Then I tried to rent some Saturn games, and what do you know, none of the small video stores nearby had any Saturn games in stock, my only resort was a Microplay a good hour's bike ride away. I was eager to play some new games so I made the trek every weekend since I didn't know anyone else with a Saturn and games I could borrow. I would play several new games every week and my faith in the Saturn was rekindled for a time.
Murmurings of the Saturn's end were in the air, the bargain bins were full of games, reviews were getting sparse in the magazines and places like EB had to start importing titles to make up for the limited domestic releases. While all of this was happening PS games were taking over the Saturn shelf space and the N64 was getting a lot of play in my circle of friends thanks to GE.
I was known as the guy with a Saturn and people would ask me if Sega was still in business because they totally fell off the radar; nevertheless I made the most of it by picking up tons of classic for single-digit prices, ultimately amassing a few dozens titles in all. That was probably what left me with a good feeling in the end, even though it was a commercial failure I managed to get a lot of gaming for my dollar.
I still play my Saturn from time to time, greats like NiGHTS and Panzer Dragoon Zwei serve as great distractions for quick spurts. The Saturn was cripple with poor hardware design and lousy management, but the games stand the test of time and that's what really counts in the end.
didn't last blade 2 get ported to the PS2 in japan I could be wrong thoughQuote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
I saw that game a few months back at EB for 1/10th of that. Unless you're talking about the Japanese version.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
Which part? SNES had many chips, SNES using all the chips was superior to the Genny, early SNES games were plagued by slowdown, slowdown in early SNES games was caused by not using all the chips (lazy programming).Quote:
Originally Posted by JefmcC
I believe it had more to do with programmers putting the load on the CPU with the earlier titles and later learning to put more of those tasks onto the GPU.Quote:
Originally Posted by RoleTroll
That and designing games that played to the SNES strengths.
I don't think the SNES could have handled something like Gunstar Heroes, even after developers had mastered the architecture.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RoleTroll
I think what JeffMcC was getting at was that the SNES processor speed was about half as fast as the Genesis CPU.
Honestly, how many games from that list have you actually played? How can you knock Power Stone?Quote:
Originally Posted by diffusionx
Because the frame rate's inconsistent? That doesn't invalidate the whole game.Quote:
You cant possibly believe that trashy port of Sega Rally 2 is still worth a damn nowadays, you just cant.
I'm comparing it to the Neo Geo version.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kev
Has Mark of the Wolves already been released for the Xbox and PS2? If not, you could still claim that one.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
Ive actually played all of them, including Power Stone. I didnt like the game, it is shallow as a kiddie pool and boring after about 30 minutes of 2-player. The series has tons of potential, though, shame Capcom isnt interested in reaching it.Quote:
Honestly, how many games from that list have you actually played? How can you knock Power Stone?
WRT Sega Rally 2... okay for one thing I dont think Sega racers are any good, including Rally 2. But that port was just crappy. Yes, the framerate is shit and honestly a bad framerate in a racing game is just unacceptable. Especially since the rally genre has kinda exploded the past few years, lots of great games.
out on ps2 in japanQuote:
Originally Posted by Kev
But honestly, it wasn't one of Sega's better racers to begin with. Then you factor in the flawed port, and all the better rally and arcade racing games that have been released since then, and it doesn't really hold up well in any sense. Everything it does has been done far better elsewhere.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
What about...Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
-Project Justice
-Toy Commander (it's fun!)
-Samba de Amigo
-ChuChu Rocket!
-Psychic Force 2012 (fun!)
-Elemental Gimmic Gear
-Seaman
-Wacky Races
-Cool Cool Toon
-Toy Racer
-Puyo Puyo Da (yeah, the game is terrible, but it made me laugh more than any game EVAR)
And there's a bunch others that aren't very good games but are extremely fun/make me happy.
Also, Dreamcast's nes emulator for some reason is a very exciting.
I don't agree with this; it's impossibly hard, but it plays beautifully. The only rally games that have been better since it came out 6 years ago are the Rallisport & Colin McRae games, and the latter is going for a sim angle rather than arcade.Quote:
Originally Posted by sethsez
I tried to stick with games that I thought were really solid. Like I really enjoyed E.G.G., and so do alot of people, but it seems to be the type of game that's only played by fans of the genre. Never played Psychic Force, but I hope it's better than the playstation game. Chu Chu Rocket showed up on GBA; I wasn't sure if it was the same game or not. I can't believe I left off Project Justice.Quote:
Originally Posted by -Project Justice
Well, I think some of those games on the list are very solid. Not all, but some. Like Samba.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
Chu Chu was on GBA, yeah, but I included it just because it's a different experience than playing it on a handheld. It would be like dismissing a snes game just because it got a port onto the gba.
Psychic Force is better than the playstation game, but it's not what I'd call a wonder. However, I think it's the kind of game a few friends can get together, get drunk, and play--having lots of fun in the process.
And, yes, shame for not including Project Justice. I seriously suck at the game, but it's fun as fuck.
Last year I got my friend to pick me up a import Sega Saturn and some capcom fighters...Best purchase I made for a while...and it was cheap. I thought my friend was kidding when he told me how much he paid for them...