Utah RAVE Raided by SWAT Team

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The “war on drugs” took on a literal meaning this past weekend when SWAT Team agents in full military combat regalia stormed a RAVE an hour outside Salt Lake City, Utah. Covered in a recommended blog on Daily Kos is a firsthand account detailing what transpired at the event on Saturday, August 20, where military soldiers swooped on the crowd of about 1,500 people in the Spanish Fork canyon. The event’s promoter claims to have attained all the necessary permits to host the RAVE and even had an insurance policy of 2 million dollars.

According to the Salt Lake Tribune , Salt Lake City detectives wanted to “get their point across that such activity was not welcome in their area,” a point they made with more than 90 law enforcement officers and camouflaged SWAT Team members, vicious dogs and tear gas. According to the Utah County Sheriff’s office, their Major Crimes unit dispatched several undercover officers to the party and waited until they witnessed drug-related crimes to send out both local and state SWAT teams. Eyewitnesses have posted their accounts of police brutality and other civil liberty violations, as “crowd control” became an assault on many peaceful partygoers who were doing no harm to others. Watch a video of the raid here.

RAVE busts have become infamous for their abuse of civil rights on young people across the country who only want to enjoy music. The most recently publicized of which took place in Flint, Michigan, where eyewitness reports included accounts of patrons being strip searched and cavity searched, some of them in unsanitary or dangerous ways.

The RAVE Act, passed in 2003, claims to target promoters and venues who host Raves with the intent of distributing drugs. The Alliance has questioned the true intent of the law, submitting a Freedom of Information Act (FOIA) request to the Justice Department asking for any documents that reference the RAVE Act with respect to electronic music events. Any information found will assess whether prosecutors are abusing the law or upholding the civil liberties of music fans.

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http://www.drugpolicy.org/news/82205utrave.cfm


I just don't get where police have the right to invade a music gathering and push their authority around. Something is seriously fucked up about this.

EDIT: More details on the raid

and here's what the sheriff had to say...

The "war on drugs" is a complete failure. Since Reagan started it back in the 80's, the U.S. government has barely made a dent. For the most part, innocent people, casual users and junkies end up paying while the real forces behind it all walk away scott free. This rave raid is a prime example.

If people want drugs, they'll always be able to get them. They have to stop going after nobodies and find out how to attack the real problem.

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I just don't get where police have the right to invade a music gathering and push their authority around.

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BECUASE THERE WERE ILLEGAL DRUGS AND ILLEGAL DRUG SALES GOING ON.

I love how stupid people on both sides of the aisle will try to whitewash facts by saying shit like, "they attacked a music gathering".

Like this:

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RAVE busts have become infamous for their abuse of civil rights on young people across the country who only want to enjoy music

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No, they only want to get really high on illegal drugs and enjoy music. Its not a fine line, at all.

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They have to stop going after nobodies and find out how to attack the real problem.

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The problem is the users. If people didnt want to do drugs then nobody will be selling them and smuggling them into the US.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

The problem is the users. If people didnt want to do drugs then nobody will be selling them and smuggling them into the US.

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So the war on drugs will never make a diffrence then.

Glad I moved out of Salt Lake City...
Worst Place Ever!!!


major tangent here:
Meanwhile, back in steamy Pennsylvania, I was "OC sprayed" (maced) and beat by police at FDR skatepark on the 4th of July. Pigs in full combat gear came to clear out "a crime scene". 99% of the people were enjoying the music, bbqs, and skating. I was bbq-ing, some of my friends tried to be peacemakers in some graffiti thug conflict. Two of ‘em got slashed by box cutters, and had their heads split by rocks. I was trying to help one guy and figure out what happened when the police arrived. In their eyes everyone was a criminal - they even said as much ("We don't give a shit about any of you"). After an officer took my friend to an ambulance they started yelling at me. There was no use explaining anything. Back at my car an officer was threatening to impound the vehicle because I hadn't left yet. I tried to explain that I was assisting a stabbing victim and I just got yelled at and again told to leave. The pig got in my face and yelled "Don't tell me any stories. I told you to leave. Now leave now!". I yelled back: "What the fuck do you think I'm trying to do"
Another pig off to the side said "That's it, you're going away." I turned to look who said what, and a stream of mace went right in my eyes. Stumbled back a few steps, and a cold handcuff seized one wrist, then I resisted the other arm, and received a flurry of nightsticks up under my ribs. That made me flip the fuck out so I started screaming "Burn in hell you fucking bastards! Burn in hell!" and they proceeded to beat the living shit out of me.
So then, WTF, indeed. And once I get released form the holding cell at like 3am I see that the summary of my offence states that I kicked at an officer, was told I was under arrest, screamed and kicked at more officers and resisted arrest, and then it states I was finally subdued with "OC Spray".
I have a few witnesses that confirm that the above summary is complete bullshit, and that I certainly never made any motion of kicking. But those sketchers are leery of committing to a trail date and all that. Besides I can't afford the couple thousand dollars it will cost for me to fight this shit. So I'll be spending my weekends this winter doing fucking community service down in Filthadelphia.

sorry to go off there. but that sorta relates, in that the cops went way overboard because there was a large gathering of vibrant youths listening to loud live music and generally making the most of their freedoms and liberties.

Oh yea,... why did Al Qaeda attack the USA? - according to supreme leader Bush: "Because we are the brightest beacon for freedom and opportunity in the world".
(yeah, like it had nothing to do with all the money we funnel into Israel, and the suppression of the Palestinian people, and all the other meddling we do in the region)

I'm sick of all this bullshit hypocrisy.
And now I hate cops even more.

It sounds like there's some fine entertainment to be had in SLC. Hippie beatings! :D

This is why I treat the cops like any other gang.
If they approach me, I run.

Smart.

er...

Don't care.

Some guy I know posted a link to a video of the bust and link to a site where people posted their accounts of what happened.

They should have busted them just for being stupid.

"Hey I think they are serious, they have guns"

really?

Another part of the story...

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as posted by Knick/Evol Intent
Last night, I was booked to play an event about an hour outside of Salt Lake City, Utah. The hype behind this show was huge, they presold 700 tickets and they expected up to 3,000 people total. The promoters did an amazing job with the show.. they even made slipmats with the flyers on them to promote in local shops.

So, we got to the show around 11:15 or so and it was really cool. It was all outdoors, in a valley surrounded by huge mountains. They had an amazing light show flashing on to a mountain behind the site, the sound was booming, the crowd was about 1500 people thick and everything just seemed too good to be true really. Well...

At about 11:30 or so, I was standing behind the stage talking with someone when I noticed a helicopter pulling over one of the mountain tops. I jokingly said "Oh look, here comes big brother" to the person I was with. I wasn't far off.

The helicopter dipped lower and lower and started shining its lights on the crowd. I was kind of in awe and just sat and watched this thing circle us for a minute. As I looked back towards the crowd I saw a guy dressed in camoflauge walking by, toting an assault rifle. At this point, everyone was fully aware of what was going on . A few "troops" rushed the stage and cut the sound off and started yelling that everyone "get the fuck out of here or go to jail". This is where it got really sticky.

No one resisted. That's for sure. They had police dogs raiding the crowd of people and I saw a dog signal out a guy who obviously had some drugs on him. The soldiers attacked the guy (4 of them on 1), and kicked him a few times in the ribs and had their knees in his back and sides. As they were cuffing him, there was about 1000 kids trying to leave in the backdrop, peacefully. Next thing I know, A can of fucking TEAR GAS is launched into the crowd. People are running and screaming at this point. Girls are crying, guys are cussing... bad scene.

Now, this is all I saw with my own eyes, but I heard plenty of other accounts of the night. Now this isnt gossip I heard from some candy raver, these are instances cited straight out of the promoters mouth..

- One of the promoters friends (a very small female) was attacked by one of the police dogs. As she struggled to get away from it, the police tackled her. 3 grown men proceeded to KICK HER IN THE STOMACH.

- The police confiscated 3 video tapes in total. People were trying to document what was happening out there. The police saw one guy filming and ran after him, tackled him and his camera fell, and luckily.. his friend grabbed it and ran and got away. priceless footage. That's not all though. Out of 1,500 people, there's sure to be more footage.

- The police were rounding up the staff of the party and the main promoter went up to them with the permit for the show and said "here, I have the permit." The police then said, "no you don't" and ripped the permit out of his hand. Then, they put an assault rifle to his forehead and said "get the fuck out of here right now."

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Yeah I'm pretty sure the fucktard would have pulled the trigger too. :rolleyes: But this is where the bullshit really gets me...

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Research was conducted and no mass gathering permit had been obtained for this incident. However, a health department permit had been obtained and EMS personnel were contracted to be on scene for first aide.

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Could it be that the permit was destroyed if the claim to have one been true? Who knows, but doing so truly is a clear step in the wrong direction. Also the "RAVE" act which was signed in 2003 comes into question since this brings up the issue of our rights to crowd gatherings vs federal authority's right to bring up a search without any warrents permitted. In a way, it's like that goddammed patriot act which allows searches on private property and personal belongings for pointless reasons.

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Originally posted by kedawa
This is why I treat the cops like any other gang.
If they approach me, I run.

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That's really dumb.
Given todays protection against terrorism, I would never run from a cop, especially if I had a bag on. Coreboys story was really bad (really sucks for him), but in comparison to getting shot that sounds just fine.

Kids don't need to go to RAVE's anyhow. DiffX is right on the matter, I'm sure there was plenty of illegal bullshit going on at the rave. To be quite honest "civil rights" and "legality" can be a big hinderance to law enforcement when they're trying to prevent people or get them for committing crimes.

I've met some decent cops before, but most of them are on a severe power trip. They're the ones that need to calm down most of the time. I've had friends arrested for no reason before. Stuff like this disgusts me.

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Originally Posted by burky

That's really dumb.
Given todays protection against terrorism, I would never run from a cop, especially if I had a bag on. Coreboys story was really bad (really sucks for him), but in comparison to getting shot that sounds just fine.

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Running from the cops is pretty normal, I'm sure they're pretty used to it.

They weren't in Britain.
Be careful is all. Not good times to cause trouble.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

Kids don't need to go to RAVE's anyhow. DiffX is right on the matter, I'm sure there was plenty of illegal bullshit going on at the rave. To be quite honest "civil rights" and "legality" can be a big hinderance to law enforcement when they're trying to prevent people or get them for committing crimes.

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Finding drugs on some people doesn't give them license to beat people indiscriminantly. Everyone knows the reasons why they're there, it's the way in which they go about it that's wrong.

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Originally posted by stormy
I've met some decent cops before, but most of them are on a severe power trip. They're the ones that need to calm down most of the time. I've had friends arrested for no reason before. Stuff like this disgusts me.

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I have never encountered a bad policeman (and I've been searched several times while drunk), but the US sounds way more vigilante.
The picture I'm getting of these power mad cops is like the one in "Meet the Fockers", does that sound about right?

I fully support the methods used by the SLC police. I hate raves, ravers and the music they play at those drug havens.

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Originally Posted by stormy

Finding drugs on some people doesn't give them license to beat people indiscriminantly. Everyone knows the reasons why they're there, it's the way in which they go about it that's wrong.

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Oh so they got beat up a little...their bodies won't even remember it in 2 weeks.

Everyone needs to stop being such pussies about the police all the time. They can get a little rough and some pretty stupid shit but we still have one of the most "watered down" police forces in the world. If it'd been Columbia they just would've went in shooting. Columbia doesn't have that big of a drug problem either, do they? Sure, they grow it and send it here but the Columbian government really doesn't give a fuck.

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Originally Posted by stormy

Finding drugs on some people doesn't give them license to beat people indiscriminantly.

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Yes it does. Fuck 'em.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

Kids don't need to go to RAVE's anyhow. DiffX is right on the matter, I'm sure there was plenty of illegal bullshit going on at the rave. To be quite honest "civil rights" and "legality" can be a big hinderance to law enforcement when they're trying to prevent people or get them for committing crimes.

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Who the fuck are you or Diffx to tell anyone what they should or should not be doing? I'm sure civil rights and legality can be a 'big hinderance' to police, and I don't give a fuck. There are rules, ones that we have to abide by and ones that they have to abide by. That's the way the system works, when one side abuses it they need to be corrected. Except, I don't get an MP5 and a nightstick to bring down a policeman that crosses the line, I have to do it in courtroom with what evidence I can present.

Now I understand that there was a lot of drug usage going on at this RAVE. It's a rave, not rocketscience to think they'll be drugs there. However, there is absolutely no way to justify the excessive use of force employed by the police in this instance. If you think you need an army with assault weapons and tear gas to take down some candy kids, you're just as bad as these idiots.

What is really going on here has NOTHING to do with law enforcement and everything to do with morality enforcement. These Utah gestapo wanted to send a clear message that they wouldn't tolerate this kind of 'thing' in their territory because they object to it on a moral basis. They want to exorcise this from their culture by using these the most force possible to dissuade anyone from wanting to ever do something like this again.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

Oh so they got beat up a little...their bodies won't even remember it in 2 weeks.

Everyone needs to stop being such pussies about the police all the time. They can get a little rough and some pretty stupid shit but we still have one of the most "watered down" police forces in the world. If it'd been Columbia they just would've went in shooting. Columbia doesn't have that big of a drug problem either, do they? Sure, they grow it and send it here but the Columbian government really doesn't give a fuck.

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You really are being an asshole here. I don't care if they only got a bruise on their hand, if they did nothing to warrent that use of force then they have been wronged and that officer needs to be disciplined.

I don't give a fuck if our police force isn't as terrible as the paramilitary deathsquads in some third-world hellhole. This is America, the last great superpower on the face of the Earth. I feel well within my rights to demand that our police do their jobs within the law they're sworn to protect. If you don't like that, too bad.

"FUCK THA POLICE!" - N.W.A.

I bet you all those rich white teenagers won't be back to do it again. Getting a little beat up sucks, but it's really not that big of a fucking deal, they shouldn't have been there in the first place.

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Finding drugs on some people doesn't give them license to beat people indiscriminantly.

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Im not straight edge, but I always have one little rule - dont be stupid. There are plenty of advocacy groups to get behind and support if you dont like the rules, but dont be surprised when you break the law flagrantly and get busted on it. These raves, they put the signs up everywhere, spend weeks promoting it, its really fucking loud, and everyone, especially the cops, know whats going on. Anybody getting involved should be smart enough to know that shit could go down, now granted e-tards aren't smart in any sense of the word but what I say stands: dont be stupid. Exchanging and consuming drugs in a place where cops know drugs are being exchanged and consumed is duuummmmbbbbbb. Especially if its in fucking Utah. UTAH! Seriously, what do you expect?

CYA, basically. I really dont have any sympathy for these people, they should know what the deal is. Yadda yadda yadda, drug laws are unjust, etc., go smoke a joint in your backyard, nobody's gonna arrest you there. And then join NORML or something.

Fine, but I'd like for once to see cops go apeshit like this at a gun show because a few of the exhibitors are selling restricted weapons.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

Fine, but I'd like for once to see cops go apeshit like this at a gun show because a few of the exhibitors are selling restricted weapons.

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That'd just be plain stupid. Gun freaks arn't stupid kids and don't respond in the same fearful manor in the future.

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Originally Posted by kedawa

Fine, but I'd like for once to see cops go apeshit like this at a gun show because a few of the exhibitors are selling restricted weapons.

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I agree, our gun laws arent enforced as is. Although I wouldnt want to see what would happen when a bunch of hicks at a gun show get raided by the government. It probably wouldnt be pretty.

Beating kids on ectasy is really wrong, totally ruins your high. You guys are assholes.

Gohron, you'll fare better in Red China perhaps?

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Originally Posted by Mike

Yes it does. Fuck 'em.

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Hey, you're stupid.

I'm for it.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

Beating kids on ectasy is really wrong, totally ruins your high. You guys are assholes.

Gohron, you'll fare better in Red China perhaps?

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Beating up a bunch of stupid fucking kids a little bit doesn't equal Red China. Everyone always whines and complains about this shit and how the government is taking away our civil rights and oppressing everyone but it's been going on for years. I don't see what the big fucking deal is, maybe it wasn't politically correct, is that it?

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Originally posted by Omnigear
Beating kids on ectasy is really wrong, totally ruins your high. You guys are assholes.

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And kids on ecstacy isn't?
If they can disencourage drug use, it can only be a good thing and most of those kids sure as hell won't touch drugs again.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

I agree, our gun laws arent enforced as is. Although I wouldnt want to see what would happen when a bunch of hicks at a gun show get raided by the government. It probably wouldnt be pretty.

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Damn, who would I root for?!

ECTASY IS ABOUT PEACE. YOU CAN'T HUG YOUR CHILDREN WITH NUCLEAR ARMS.

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Originally Posted by burky

And kids on ecstacy isn't?
If they can disencourage drug use, it can only be a good thing and most of those kids sure as hell won't touch drugs again.

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Wrong, they just hate the government way more.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

Damn, who would I root for?!

ECTASY IS ABOUT PEACE. YOU CAN'T HUG YOUR CHILDREN WITH NUCLEAR ARMS.

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Ecstasy is fake chemical horseshit that turns people into retards. Id pay for a DVD of cops beating up e-tards.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

Beating up a bunch of stupid fucking kids a little bit doesn't equal Red China. Everyone always whines and complains about this shit and how the government is taking away our civil rights and oppressing everyone but it's been going on for years. I don't see what the big fucking deal is, maybe it wasn't politically correct, is that it?

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Dude, it's not hard to clear out a bunch of people without beating them. These are kids on ectasy and they need a SWAT team with helicopters? Oh I forgot, a bunch of kids hanging outside listening to music is top priority. Forget about all those guys like, killing people.

And either way, Dole is right. Nab the guys with millions of pills trying to cross the border, not the no-name end user. This isn't going to do shit.

Assumption.

Hey man no one's retarded for assuming most people at a 1500 person rave are on drugs, or passing them out. But I can also assume tomorrow morning Diffusion will wake up with a can of green beans taking the place of his melon head. Or I could assume my bedroom closet is gonna open in exactly ten seconds and Buffy's sister is gonna walk out and wanna make out with me.

I'd be crazy to assume anything but the rave/drugs issue, because there are degrees. However they are all still assumptions, and this system is deficient when we start making top heavy decisions involving the law, the cops, or the military basing real world, unchangeable actions, on things that may or may not be true. I mean, whats next? What if we had invaded a poverty stricken, third world country, because of an assumption?

Oh wait, never mind.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Ecstasy is fake chemical horseshit that turns people into retards. Id pay for a DVD of cops beating up e-tards.

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Yes, ectasy is a stupid drug but that changes nothing.

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And either way, Dole is right.

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Except... he's not right. As long as people want to buy those millions of pills someone will risk life and limb to smuggle them in. The drug market is still a market, driven by the same rules that drives every other market. I disagree with locking up people like they're murderers and rapists (I support enforced treatment) but the point still stands that this is a demand problem, not a supply-side one.

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Forget about all those guys like, killing people.

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Last I heard multiple cops can be assigned to multiple places. .

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Originally posted by Omnigear
Wrong, they just hate the government way more.

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The kids are idiots then and need all the beatings they can get. They're not addicts; they should learn their lesson and stop drugs.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

Dude, it's not hard to clear out a bunch of people without beating them. These are kids on ectasy and they need a SWAT team with helicopters? Oh I forgot, a bunch of kids hanging outside listening to music is top priority. Forget about all those guys like, killing people.

And either way, Dole is right. Nab the guys with millions of pills trying to cross the border, not the no-name end user. This isn't going to do shit.

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It's called a scare tactic, how much of these kids do you think will be back for the next rave? Again, people out there selling drugs and "killing people" arn't going to respond the same way that some scared teenagers/young adults are going to act. That's not to say that I don't think they should execute drug dealers on the spot but we're not talking about that right now.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Last I heard multiple cops can be assigned to multiple places. .

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Last I heard more cops in more effiecient places = more effieciency. But nothing goes on in SLC so whatever.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Except... he's not right. As long as people want to buy those millions of pills someone will risk life and limb to smuggle them in. The drug market is still a market, driven by the same rules that drives every other market. I disagree with locking up people like they're murderers and rapists (I support enforced treatment) but the point still stands that this is a demand problem, not a supply-side one.

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The War on Drugs is useless, I don't think I have to explain this to you. Kids will either learn on their own that taking ectasy over and over again is bad or they'll fuck up their lives, and well, that's that. Survival of the fittest. Let people figure shit out on their own.

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Originally Posted by burky

The kids are idiots then and need all the beatings they can get. They're not addicts; they should learn their lesson and stop drugs.

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I'm sure you're having enough problems with your own teenage life, don't try to live it for thousands of other people too.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

The War on Drugs is useless, I don't think I have to explain this to you. Kids will either learn on their own that taking ectasy over and over again is bad or they'll fuck up their lives, and well, that's that. Survival of the fittest. Let people figure shit out on their own.

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Except it's our tax dollars that have to take care of these stupid kids. I'd support survival of the fittest if the fittest didn't have to drag the weakest with them.

Wait clarify Gohron, its our tax dollars because of the war on drugs, or even if there wasn't one?

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

Beating kids on ectasy is really wrong, totally ruins your high. You guys are assholes.

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Beating kids is also illegal. Pending what the others have to say about pressing charges, the police have to worry more about the tapes showing up then pressing foward with what they managed to drag in for evidence.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Ecstasy is fake chemical horseshit that turns people into retards. Id pay for a DVD of cops beating up e-tards.

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I'll 2nd that.

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The War on Drugs is useless, I don't think I have to explain this to you. Kids will either learn on their own that taking ectasy over and over again is bad or they'll fuck up their lives, and well, that's that. Survival of the fittest. Let people figure shit out on their own.

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Eh, I think more can be done, and cheaper too. Force users into treatment - treatment is more effect than jailtime and a lot cheaper, and less users = less money for the cartels, which will drive down smuggling because of lower demand. Lock up the dealers. Stop giving money to corrupt South American governments to "spray crops" or some shit. Thats not gonna do shit, those economies depend on the cocaine crops and drug lords. Also, allow medical marijuana for fucks sake, it just makes sense. A mature, grown-up, un-politicized drug policy could work wonders.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

Except it's our tax dollars that have to take care of these stupid kids. I'd support survival of the fittest if the fittest didn't have to drag the weakest with them.

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Yeah, hence the "War on Drugs" is useless part.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Stop giving money to corrupt South American governments to "spray crops" or some shit.

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Or assasinate that guy they've been talking about on the news.

Well yeah omni, if thats what he meant he pretty much killed his own argument.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Eh, I think more can be done, and cheaper too. Force users into treatment - treatment is more effect than jailtime and a lot cheaper, and less users = less money for the cartels, which will drive down smuggling because of lower demand. Lock up the dealers. Stop giving money to corrupt South American governments to "spray crops" or some shit. Thats not gonna do shit, those economies depend on the cocaine crops and drug lords. Also, allow medical marijuana for fucks sake, it just makes sense. A mature, grown-up, un-politicized drug policy could work wonders.

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Well we could start by telling our troops in afghanastan to stop playing checkers with the poppy fields and start burning em all, which will never happen, but still. I think what you just said above maybe the most ideal, unrealistic, "way you want the world to be and you don't even care how it sounds", thought I've ever seen you have on here though.

Good for you.

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Originally posted by Omnigear
I'm sure you're having enough problems with your own teenage life, don't try to live it for thousands of other people too.

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Wtf sort of a comeback is that?!

The point I made was about what Gohron called "Scare Tactics"
Those kids won't dare so much as to look at a poster for a rave now.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

Well we could start by telling our troops in afghanastan to stop playing checkers with the poppy fields and start burning em all, which will never happen, but still. I think what you just said above maybe the most ideal, unrealistic, "way you want the world to be and you don't even care how it sounds", thought I've ever seen you have on here though.

Good for you.

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Eh, its happening on the state and local level, and these levels influence federal policy.

And burning the poppy fields wont fucking work, because, like I said, theres too much money to be made, people will just grow it somewhere else. Get people off heroin and the market will dry up. It could take a while but we've been on our current policies for "a while" and shit aint working.

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Originally Posted by burky

Wtf sort of a comeback is that?!

The point I made was about what Gohron called "Scare Tactics"
Those kids won't dare so much as to look at a poster for a rave now.

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Oh great, we won!

Grow up man, there's way worse things to worry about.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Eh, I think more can be done, and cheaper too. Force users into treatment - treatment is more effect than jailtime and a lot cheaper, and less users = less money for the cartels, which will drive down smuggling because of lower demand. Lock up the dealers. Stop giving money to corrupt South American governments to "spray crops" or some shit. Thats not gonna do shit, those economies depend on the cocaine crops and drug lords. Also, allow medical marijuana for fucks sake, it just makes sense. A mature, grown-up, un-politicized drug policy could work wonders.

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But what's a "user." Some kid who goes to rave a few times a year and maybe takes a hit of ectasy?

It's all about the heroin addicts. Get those guys into treatment, fine, do what you gotta do. I think you see my point.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Eh, its happening on the state and local level, and these levels influence federal policy.

And burning the poppy fields wont fucking work, because, like I said, theres too much money to be made, people will just grow it somewhere else. Get people off heroin and the market will dry up. It could take a while but we've been on our current policies for "a while" and shit aint working.

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Oh I agree entirely I just hate how the troops over there have orders to discriminate. Like burn here but don't burn here. Its really not a confidence builder.

Either way we are on the same page for this one. Just I think different ideas on how to get it done. Which is, refreshing, to say the least.

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But what's a "user." Some kid who goes to rave a few times a year and maybe takes a hit of ectasy?

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Yea, they should just be beat with batons, though.

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Originally Posted by youandwhosearmy

Wait clarify Gohron, its our tax dollars because of the war on drugs, or even if there wasn't one?

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No, I was speaking of what happens to Exctasy users. They're more likely to develop brain defeciency and be in need of special care, probably a good bit of it provided by the government in one way or another.

I am amazed that some of you are sitting here supporting the abuse of our civil rights even if it was done to a bunch of retard teenage rave fags..

Wow, this really sucks and I cant believe a lot of you here dont think its bullshit what happened.

The police couldve handled this whole thing differently.They could have easily taken all of those guys with camoflague and assault rifles, given them baggy pants and brightly colored hats, sent them into the crowd,and if they saw some obvious drug-usage activity going on, quietly arrest the 'perps'.

Yeah, a hell of a lot of people were no doubt 'using' there but what about those who werent? Okay to punish them, tear gas them, and kick them too?

I've been to more concerts, then I can count count on my fingers - and yeah out in the crowd, I light up, some other people around me might do the same, other people are just there to enjoy the music. So would it be okay for cops to flip the fuck out and shut down the whole event because of a few bad apples? Hey, how about we just arrest all of New York City, I'm sure there is some drug usage that goes on there? And holy fuck, I saw a guy who looked twigged out the other day in front of the science library on campus - OMGRAIDTHEUNIVERSITYNOW!12!

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Originally Posted by gohron

Kids don't need to go to RAVE's anyhow. DiffX is right on the matter, I'm sure there was plenty of illegal bullshit going on at the rave.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

Oh so they got beat up a little...their bodies won't even remember it in 2 weeks.

Everyone needs to stop being such pussies about the police all the time.

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:rolleyes: wow, just...wow. And this comes from TNL's resident bad-ass marine right?

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Originally Posted by Mike

I fully support the methods used by the SLC police. I hate raves, ravers and the music they play at those drug havens.

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http://www.wsu.edu:8001/~dee/GRAPHIC...A/CHITITLE.JPG


Geez, you guys disappoint me.You seriously sound like my "redneck-hillbilly" grandpa from West Virginia.While I love the guy to death, he is lacking in some useful common sense like some of you guys... Respect -1

K thats a bit different. I don't think the money is even remotely comparable to what is being spent on the "failed" War on Drugs, but I see your point how both ways are pretty discouraging.

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Originally Posted by JMET

I am amazed that some of you are sitting here supporting the abuse of our civil rights even if it was done to a bunch of retard teenage rave fags..

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Scroll up and read my long post.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

No, I was speaking of what happens to Exctasy users. They're more likely to develop brain defeciency and be in need of special care, probably a good bit of it provided by the government in one way or another.

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Right, because companies don't release dangerous drugs every year that kill people and send them to the hospital. But the government says it's OK so I better shut my mouth.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

Oh great, we won!

Grow up man, there's way worse things to worry about.

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With high drug use rates among young adults and this being fairly detrimental to society along with the fact that the Western World (and World in general) is supporting more and more degressive things for society I'd say there's not "way worse things to worry about."

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Originally Posted by JMET

I am amazed that some of you are sitting here supporting the abuse of our civil rights even if it was done to a bunch of retard teenage rave fags..

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The government abuses our civil rights whenever it wants to so why complain about it? It's always been going on. Personally I think most of the civil rights issues that come up are bullshit, but whatever, you can all continue bitching about a few bruises and cuts suffered by some raver kids.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

Right, because companies don't release dangerous drugs every year that kill people and send them to the hospital. But the government says it's OK so I better shut my mouth.

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What are you talking about?

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Originally Posted by Jetman

Wow, this really sucks and I cant believe a lot of you here dont think its bullshit what happened.

The police couldve handled this whole thing differently.They could have easily taken all of those guys with camoflague and assault rifles, given them baggy pants and brightly colored hats, sent them into the crowd,and if they saw some obvious drug-usage activity going on, quietly arrest the 'perps'.

Yeah, a hell of a lot of people were no doubt 'using' there but what about those who werent? Okay to punish them, tear gas them, and kick them too?

I've been to more concerts, then I can count count on my fingers - and yeah out in the crowd, I light up, some other people around me might do the same, other people are just there to enjoy the music. So would it be okay for cops to flip the fuck out and shut down the whole event because of a few bad apples? Hey, how about we just arrest all of New York City, I'm sure there is some drug usage that goes on there? And holy fuck, I saw a guy who looked twigged out the other day in front of the science library on campus - OMGRAIDTHEUNIVERSITYNOW!12!

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You're comparing a concert to a rave. You're comparing almost two completely different things. One is meant for drugs, one is meant for music. The people who wern't in the wrong-doing suffered nothing serious, if they got put in jail for 2 years it'd be a bit different but a few minor wounds arn't shit.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

What are you talking about?

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I'm talking about shit that the FDA approves and then lo and behold 2 years later people are dead and in the hospital because of it. Vioxx, anyone?

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

I'm talking about shit that the FDA approves and then lo and behold 2 years later people are dead and in the hospital because of it. Vioxx, anyone?

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But, but, cheaper Canadian drugs don't go through the rigorous screening process that American drugs do! We can't trust them! They have that dirty old universal healthcare stink all OVER them!

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

I'm talking about shit that the FDA approves and then lo and behold 2 years later people are dead and in the hospital because of it. Vioxx, anyone?

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What does that have to do with what we're talking about? I mentioned mental disability among drug users and how they have to be taken care of, you mentioned the government occassionally releasing dangerous drugs, explain.

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Except... he's not right. As long as people want to buy those millions of pills someone will risk life and limb to smuggle them in. The drug market is still a market, driven by the same rules that drives every other market. I disagree with locking up people like they're murderers and rapists (I support enforced treatment) but the point still stands that this is a demand problem, not a supply-side one.



Last I heard multiple cops can be assigned to multiple places. .

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This is why you *gasp* legalize drugs. There will always be demand for drugs, as soon as you bust 20 kids, and scare them into not doing drugs, there will be 100 more to take their place as users. I'm no hippy, but I think for a country to be truly free, that a person should be able to put whatever the fuck they want into their body. Thousands and thousands of people die every year from alcohol related illnesses. How many people die a year from ecstasy? Answer, in 2001 76 deaths were reported due to MDMA use. Lots more than that die from Cocaine, but still gets nowhere near alcohol. So what do we do? Create a black market so that kids that sell crack can shoot at each other over 20 dollar drug debts. If people want to kill themselves with excessive drug use, let em. Natural selection, baby. Get rid of the black market. Make these dangerous drugs less taboo. People will figure it out. And if they don't, well, we seem to have no problem with letting people drink themselves to death right?

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Originally Posted by Gohron

What does that have to do with what we're talking about? I mentioned mental disability among drug users and how they have to be taken care of, you mentioned the government occassionally releasing dangerous drugs, explain.

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These people have to be taken care of too, with your tax dollars, because of government fuck ups. Illegal drugs aren't the only "bad" drugs out there is my point. It's stupid when the government OKs drugs that are sometimes more dangerous than the ones they fight so vehemontly against.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

These people have to be taken care of too, with your tax dollars, because of government fuck ups. Illegal drugs aren't the only "bad" drugs out there is my point. It's stupid when the government OKs drugs that are sometimes more dangerous than the ones they fight so vehemontly against.

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I agree, but that wasn't the argument to begin with so I thought it a little strange that you were bringing it up.

Check out Penn and Teller's episode of their show "Bullshit" about the war on drugs. It's really good.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

I agree, but that wasn't the argument to begin with so I thought it a little strange that you were bringing it up.

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Neither was our tax dollars being involved or anything. And why are you complaining about our tax dollars being spent on this stuff when you're supporting it in this very thread?

And yeah, I forgot about the whole alcohol double standard. That shit doesn't make sense.

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

Neither was our tax dollars being involved or anything. And why are you complaining about our tax dollars being spent on this stuff when you're supporting it in this very thread?

And yeah, I forgot about the whole alcohol double standard. That shit doesn't make sense.

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I was complaining about our tax dollars being used to take care of former drug addicts who are now mentally defecient and/or will be mentally defecient. The government has nothing to do but mismanage funds, I'd much rather them spend it on something stupid rather then support those that are weak and should be left to bury themselves.

What it comes down to is that a lot of 'kids' are going to find some way to rebel, get high, fuck their minds up - its been going on for a damn long time. If 'X',marijuana, crack,etc, are going to be outlawed for their mind flailing abilities then why not outlaw ALL drugs and alcohol. Because that's what its going to take if you want a completely sterile and robotic society.

How many of you here have experimented with drugs? Did you all turn into junkies? The world is full of all types of people - some alcoholics, some obese, some completely drugged out, others just a bit on the unlucky side, and the really unlucky few end up like supermario.It's always going to be that way. Beating people into submission won't change that.
Just educate, guide, subdue if need be, and move on. That's why I agree with Dole to attack the root of the problem, not the weak branches that feed off of that root.

and btw, I'm willing to bet more crimes in this country are a result of alcohol-usage than any form of drugs.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

I was complaining about our tax dollars being used to take care of former drug addicts who are now mentally defecient and/or will be mentally defecient. The government has nothing to do but mismanage funds, I'd much rather them spend it on something stupid rather then support those that are weak and should be left to bury themselves.

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People get sick all the time, you can't discriminate based on the cause. Sorry.

this is worth reading again:

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Originally Posted by Mykozo

This is why you *gasp* legalize drugs. There will always be demand for drugs, as soon as you bust 20 kids, and scare them into not doing drugs, there will be 100 more to take their place as users. I'm no hippy, but I think for a country to be truly free, that a person should be able to put whatever the fuck they want into their body. Thousands and thousands of people die every year from alcohol related illnesses. How many people die a year from ecstasy? Answer, in 2001 76 deaths were reported due to MDMA use. Lots more than that die from Cocaine, but still gets nowhere near alcohol. So what do we do? Create a black market so that kids that sell crack can shoot at each other over 20 dollar drug debts. If people want to kill themselves with excessive drug use, let em. Natural selection, baby. Get rid of the black market. Make these dangerous drugs less taboo. People will figure it out. And if they don't, well, we seem to have no problem with letting people drink themselves to death right?

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Gohron is the main one holding the point that it was ok to beat and tear gass the crowd because they are presumed to be breaking the law; but to anyone who is preaching "they were using illegal drugs..." - So, what?, it'll be ok when the cops beat you and take your computer because of the illegal mp3s and roms that may be on your hard drive?

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Originally Posted by Mykozo

Check out Penn and Teller's episode of their show "Bullshit" about the war on drugs. It's really good.

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Bullshit is the greatest documentary/deconstruction show ever.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mykozo

This is why you *gasp* legalize drugs. There will always be demand for drugs, as soon as you bust 20 kids, and scare them into not doing drugs, there will be 100 more to take their place as users. I'm no hippy, but I think for a country to be truly free, that a person should be able to put whatever the fuck they want into their body. Thousands and thousands of people die every year from alcohol related illnesses. How many people die a year from ecstasy? Answer, in 2001 76 deaths were reported due to MDMA use. Lots more than that die from Cocaine, but still gets nowhere near alcohol. So what do we do? Create a black market so that kids that sell crack can shoot at each other over 20 dollar drug debts. If people want to kill themselves with excessive drug use, let em. Natural selection, baby. Get rid of the black market. Make these dangerous drugs less taboo. People will figure it out. And if they don't, well, we seem to have no problem with letting people drink themselves to death right?

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:tu: I really couldnt have put it better myself.

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Originally Posted by Gohron

You're comparing a concert to a rave. You're comparing almost two completely different things. One is meant for drugs, one is meant for music.

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Out of curiosity , you obviously havent been to either, right?

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Originally Posted by Gohron

I was complaining about our tax dollars being used to take care of former drug addicts who are now mentally defecient and/or will be mentally defecient. The government has nothing to do but mismanage funds, I'd much rather them spend it on something stupid rather then support those that are weak and should be left to bury themselves.

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Oh, and spending on the war on drugs is indeed quite stupid. First off we outlaw drug use so we create a black market. Black market = higher prices. So now drug users, who have destroyed their minds and bodies with these drugs, have to pay exhorbitant prices for said substances. Destroyed mind and body = no job. Hmmmm, whats the easiest way for someone to make money if they can't get a job? OH YEAH. Rob people, burglarize homes and stores, carjack, etc...So now we have funds being diverted into the "war on drugs" on the front end (which is not working one fucking bit), and we lose on the back end by having to deal with all the crime that black market drugs create due to the high price. How often do you hear of homeless drunks robbing people for liquor? Or stealing their families belongings for it? Not often, since liquor is so cheap they can usually bum enough money on the street corner to get it. War on drugs = stupid as hell. It's a great political diversion though isn't it?

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Answer, in 2001 76 deaths were reported due to MDMA use. Lots more than that die from Cocaine, but still gets nowhere near alcohol.

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Wait wait wait, so MDMA, an illegal drug, kills 76 people. Cocaine, an illegal drug, kills a lot more. Alcohol, a legal drug, kills even more than that. So your solution is to make MDMA and cocaine legal, too! Just like alcohol! Wow!

I dont think any studies have been done on the subject, but Im sure alcohol isnt necessarilly more deadly than any of these drugs, its all about quantity consumed. So making it legal and thusly more accessible will just mean more people will die from MDA and cocaine. There's a hole in your argument so big you can fly a 747 through it.

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That's why I agree with Dole to attack the root of the problem, not the weak branches that feed off of that root.

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Seriously, anyone who believes that people who sell the drugs, not buyers, is the problem is an idiot, pure and simple. You may not like Wal-Mart, but who do you have to blame for its success? The buyers. Even g0zen knows this critical fact wrt the illegal immigration discussion - the real problem isnt the people shipping them in but the people who are giving them jobs. Its demand that creates a market, not the mere existence of some arbitrary product. Study some economics.

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And if they don't, well, we seem to have no problem with letting people drink themselves to death right?

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Yes, we do - it costs us so much money in increased health care premiums and medicaid/medicare treatments and shit, its ridiculous. Alcohol and drugs are involved in a majority of domestic/child abuse incidents. And lets not even get into all the fucking drunk driver scum that kill people. Alcoholism is a scourge on our society, I dont think making more intoxicating substances legal will help the problem, just amplify it. You could then reach into your hat and pull out the equivalency argument - "if alcohol is legal so should pot/heroin/etc." - but thats not really valid. We already cant contain alcoholism as a society, letting more out in the wild, legal, that wont help anything.

"this is worth reading again:"

No, it isn't.

This is kind of like the debate over general contractors working on the Death Star that they had in Clerks.

Anyone at the Drug Rave knew the risk they were taking by being there, I don't feel sorry for a single person that got banged around by the SWAT team.

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Originally Posted by Opaque

Anyone at the Drug Rave knew the risk they were taking by being there, I don't feel sorry for a single person that got banged around by the SWAT team.

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let me ask again: Will it be ok when you and your family get beat by the police for having illegal (stolen) files on your computer?

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Wait wait wait, so MDMA, an illegal drug, kills 76 people. Cocaine, an illegal drug, kills a lot more. Alcohol, a legal drug, kills even more than that. So your solution is to make MDMA and cocaine legal, too! Wow!

We already cant contain alcoholism as a society, letting more out in the wild, legal, that wont help anything.

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Putting more substance on the streets might be a bad thing, but if people really want to get their hands on the stuff they will. Alcohol and drugs dont kill people, people who cant handle alcohol/drugs,etc. are the ones causing problems. When was the last time you went on a crime-spree after downing some OE? Some people are just fucked up from the beginning and substance just amplifies what problems are already there which I'm sure stem from some other aspect of that person's life.

I wouldnt give some people alcohol or drugs the same way I wouldnt let certain children watch a Freddy Krueger movie. Some people just cant handle it.

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Originally Posted by diffx

Seriously, anyone who believes that people who sell the drugs, not buyers, is the problem is an idiot, pure and simple. You may not like Wal-Mart, but who do you have to blame for its success? The buyers. Even g0zen knows this critical fact wrt the illegal immigration discussion - the real problem isnt the people shipping them in but the people who are giving them jobs. Its demand that creates a market, not the mere existence of some arbitrary product. Study some economics.

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idiot? :rolleyes:... thanks, a lot man....

I'm honestly not 100% sure, I'd agree with legalization because a lot of the public just isnt ready for it at this point.

Until that day comes and in that respect, I think all manners of it's usage should be looked into, not just the users. I know I use a lot of comparisons all of the time but if you are going to kill ants do you just kill them one at a time or go for the pile?
Every cartel or lab you take out is the equivalent of busting hundreds if not thousands of drug users and possibly preventing that many more from starting what could be a bad habit - if you think that way. Not every ' Tom and Dick' has access to chemicals and labs needed to make this stuff. If law enforcement wants to remain serious about their plan to stomp out drugs in all forms this is how they should be doing it.Not pushing around and beating kids in the middle of the desert.

"Will it be ok when you and your family get beat by the police for having illegal (stolen) files on your computer?"
Don't put illegal files on your PC

" drugs dont kill people"
Stop taking drugs

"Not pushing around and beating kids in the middle of the desert."
Don't get me wrong, busting huge labs is good. But so is beating up fairy kids on e-tabs

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ne_Biggums.jpg

Holy fucking different world. I haven't been to one in 2-3 years, but the raves in Toronto have cops at them for security. If they see you doing drugs, they'll take it away. If you're doing something hardcore like speed or coke you'll probably get hauled off. But nobody's getting attacked or shook down anything. Nobody cares if anyone's high as long as they're not bothering anyone.

Everyone saying these people deserved this - you're being fucking retarded. They weren't hurting anyone, and despite what Charles Bronson or the Punisher told you, ecstacy and weed are not the ultimate fucking evil or anything. I want to see cops bust in and smash your skull in when you've had 3 beers and you're playing your modded Xbox with illegally downloaded mp3s on it. That's about how fair this was.

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Originally Posted by Mike

I fully support the methods used by the SLC police. I hate raves, ravers and the music they play at those drug havens.

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You used to be sane, what happened?

He realized that raves, ravers, the music they play and the drugs they take suck

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

You used to be sane, what happened?

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I just hate ravers. My end of it has nothing to do with the civil rights end of it. I just wish that every raver, their shitty, monotonous music and their stupid drugs would disappear off the face of the planet.

Civil rights? Hell, I'll go with what JMET said. It wasn't cool how they went about it, clearly. But I'm only looking at it from the point of view that a bunch of ravers got their asses kicked. Good times.

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Originally Posted by Core Boy

let me ask again: Will it be ok when you and your family get beat by the police for having illegal (stolen) files on your computer?

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If my state passes a law saying that having stolen MP3s on your computer will get your house invaded by a SWAT team I will delete every MP3 on my computer, even ones I think are from CDs.

I don't do things that have any chance of SWAT involement because I'm not a fucking moron.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mike

I just hate ravers. My end of it has nothing to do with the civil rights end of it. I just wish that every raver, their shitty, monotonous music and their stupid drugs would disappear off the face of the planet.

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http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/22/13030/7546

Read that and then tell me you're not being a complete elitist douchebag who thinks people should be beaten up by SWAT police for what amounts to crappy taste in music. Maybe dropping disgusting condiments from overhead would have been more appropriate.

We should all be like Mike!

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Originally Posted by Opaque

I don't do things that have any chance of SWAT involement because I'm not a fucking moron.

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That's the point, a SWAT team and vicious dogs weren't needed.

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Originally Posted by StriderKyo

Everyone saying these people deserved this - you're being fucking retarded.

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I don't think they deserved it, I just think it's their own fault it happened. I don't deserved to be killed for calling a guy in a gang a "stupid nigger" (not that I would ever do that anyway) but it would be compeletely my fault if I did say that and something happened. I know the risk, if I take it all the responsibility falls on me.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

That's the point, a SWAT team and vicious dogs weren't needed.

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I agree they weren't needed. But everyone at that Rave knew it might happen and they went anyway. I don't feel sorry for them because they could have avoided it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2005/8/22/13030/7546

Read that and then tell me you're not being a complete elitist douchebag who thinks people should be beaten up by SWAT police for what amounts to crappy taste in music. Maybe dropping disgusting condiments from overhead would have been more appropriate.

We should all be like Mike!

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I like how you ignored my second part. Although, as the chopper was coming down, they definitely should have been spraying ketchup and mustard. That's a good idea.

Clearly, a SWAT team and all of that other shit wasn't needed. Just arrest the whole group and be done with it. Sheesh.

EDIT: And who's the idiot who brought up the thing about MP3s and ROMs and stuff?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Opaque

I agree they weren't needed. But everyone at that Rave knew it might happen and they went anyway. I don't feel sorry for them because they could have avoided it.

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I don't see why anyone would go to a Rave expecting that to happen, but whatever, I don't know what it's like in crazy ol' SLC.

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Originally Posted by Mike

I like how you ignored my second part.

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I did that because you work at Apple. Lower your prices!

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

I did that because you work at Apple. Lower your prices!

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LOL. Send an e-mail! I have no power! ;)

Here's a video of it

Ravers still exist?

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

The problem is the users. If people didnt want to do drugs then nobody will be selling them and smuggling them into the US.

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The problem is that there always will be users. You can bust as many raves as you want, create stiff laws punishing users, whatever. People will still buy coke on street corners and grow weed in their basements. Back in the 80's when the "war on drugs" was started, 88.5% of High Schoolers polled said finding and buying pot was "very easy." 10 years later, the same High School poll, and do you know what percentage of students gave the "very easy" response? 88.5%.

So much for the war on drugs. If they expect to make any difference at all, they need to take another approach because the one they got ain't working. I'm not saying that these raver douches should get off free or anything (they ARE breaking the law), but busting petty end users and calling it a "victory" does nothing in the big picture.

War on Drugs = Waste of money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OmniGear

And either way, Dole is right.

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:tu:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by diffusionx

Except... he's not right. As long as people want to buy those millions of pills someone will risk life and limb to smuggle them in. The drug market is still a market, driven by the same rules that drives every other market. I disagree with locking up people like they're murderers and rapists (I support enforced treatment) but the point still stands that this is a demand problem, not a supply-side one.

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No, it's equally both. More of a self-perpetuating circle, really. People will risk all to smuggle drugs because they have customers who will buy them, and customers want to buy drugs because people will smuggle them in for them. In my original post, I didn't say the end users weren't the problem, just that they were a minor part of the whole. Attacking them since the 80's has had almost 0 impact on drug usage, thus that approach is not working. So, if going after the customers isn't the solution, clearly stepping up efforts against the smugglers/producers is where our efforts should be going.

And those guys will do anything to get their shit across the border. I've read some crazy stories- of course, there's the nutcases that bag up coke or heroin and swallow it to shit out once they get across the border (with the risk of the bag popping in their stomach, thus killing them from an OD), but try this one on for size. This one guy went into mexico, bought his drugs, and enjoyed a brief vacation. All the while, he was shitting and pissing into bottles and saving it. When the time came to leave, he wrapped up his drugs in sealed plastic bags, hid them in the suitcase with his dirty laundry, dumped in the warm shit and piss from the bottles, and mixed it all around. When he got to the border, he told customs that he had drank the water and spent most of the time in Mexico shitting himself. The customs guys cracked open the suitcase, caught one wiff of the smell, and sent him on his merry way.

As for the end users, I do support enforced treatment/probation, as opposed to harsh sentances outright. Get a second chance, fuck up, then go to jail. Instead many states have manditory minimum sentances for drug offenders and many of them end up serving more time than murderers and rapists who can actually get parole.

And BTW, I do support legalizing marijuana for medical uses.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

there's the nutcases that bag up coke or heroin and swallow it to shit out once they get across the border (with the risk of the bag popping in their stomach, thus killing them from an OD).

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That's how ODB died : (

I snuck a bag of cocaine onto a cruise boat once, I was like 17. It was easy as shit though.

Well, that's a cruise ship. I've been on them, and they don't search you before you board. At least, the one I was on, anyway (Princess Cruise Lines).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Well, that's a cruise ship. I've been on them, and they don't search you before you board. At least, the one I was on, anyway (Princess Cruise Lines).

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Quick frisk and metal detector. But yeah, you could bring a warhead onboard with you and get away with it.

A Rave??? What do they think this is, 1992?