Kansas college professor beaten for anti-creationism sentiments

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Kan. Professor Attacked Along Rural Road

LAWRENCE, Kan. (AP) -- A college professor whose planned course on creationism and intelligent design was canceled after he derided Christian conservatives said he was beaten by two men along a rural road early Monday.

University of Kansas religious studies professor Paul Mirecki said the men referred to the class when they beat him on the head, shoulders and back with their fists, and possibly a metal object, the Lawrence Journal-World reported.

"I didn't know them," Mirecki said of his assailants, "but I'm sure they knew me."

Messages left by the Associated Press on Mirecki's cell phone were not immediately returned.

Sheriff's Lt. Kari Wempe said Mirecki reported the attack just before 7 a.m.

The professor said he confronted the men after they were tailgating his vehicle along a road south of Lawrence. "I'm mostly shaken up, and I got some bruises and sore spots," he said.

Mirecki planned to offer a spring course called "Special Topics in Religion: Intelligent Design, Creationism and other Religious Mythologies" after the Kansas Board of Education decided to include more criticism of evolution in science standards for elementary and secondary students.

Last week, Mirecki asked the university to cancel the class after he created a furor by sending an e-mail to a student organization mocking Christian fundamentalists.

Mirecki had referred to religious conservatives as "fundies," and said a course describing intelligent design as mythology would be a "nice slap in their big fat face." He has apologized for those comments.

© 2005 The Associated Press. All rights reserved. This material may not be published, broadcast, rewritten or redistributed.

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Admittedly, he was a bit out of line...

Hal Turner looks forward to bringing more pain:

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He has been the first; I look forward to many, many more.

I am proud to announce that a Kansas College Professor has become the first Christian Basher to be physically beaten for his derision of our beliefs. IT IS WISE TO BELIEVE THERE WILL BE MORE BEATINGS.

College professors, teachers, administrators, Boards of Education, Media personalities, Lawyers, Judges and politicians who attack Christianity, its beliefs, symbols or traditions should not be surprised if they receive the same treatment as was given to this professor: being physically, violently beaten.

We Christians are tired of being told to tolerate everyone else's beliefs, while ours are not tolerated. We have tried for years to battle this Anti-Christian Bigotry through words and the law. Both those methods have failed. We are now resorting to the use of force and violence.

Whether YOU are among those who are beaten is solely up to you. Leave Christianity alone and you will live in peace. Attack Christianity, it's symbols or traditions and you put yourself at personal risk of severe consequences. We are done talking.

If any of you know of any other people who need a beating over this issue kindly e-mail the details to me.

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I must have missed the part where they replaced "turn the other cheek" with "IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!"

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Originally Posted by Bacon McShig

Admittedly, he was a bit out of line...

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Bullshit, he's completely right and should only be MORE enthusastic to teach the class now. Regardless, even if he was DEAD WRONG that's no excuse to beat the hell out of him. Let me tell ya, if I had to beat down all the people that I disagreed with I'd have to quit my day job and fight full time (starting with Kidnemo).

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Originally Posted by Bacon McShig

I must have missed the part where they replaced "turn the other cheek" with "IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!"

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Around the same time they traded in their crosses for brown shirts. Take a good look America, this is the true face of the religious right; ignorant, fanatical, violent.

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Originally Posted by Bacon McShig

I must have missed the part where they replaced "turn the other cheek" with "IT'S CLOBBERIN' TIME!"

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Yeah, seriously.Are these Christian rednecks going to rewrite the Bible to coincide with this newfound violent behavior? I'm sure the Bible woud have been more awesome if Jesus had drop-kicked any Jew who didnt believe in him, threw an elbow drop at any disbelievers, or body slammed some Romans,but the religion just doesnt work that way.

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Kansas Board of Education decided to include more criticism of evolution in science standards for elementary and secondary students.

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Kansas should be bombed off the fucking map.

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Originally Posted by that retard Hal Turner

I am proud to announce that a Kansas College Professor has become the first Christian Basher to be physically beaten for his derision of our beliefs. IT IS WISE TO BELIEVE THERE WILL BE MORE BEATINGS.

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Fascist cocksucker. I hope you get AIDS from a secret homosexual affair.

Gah. I like to think these fuckers aren't representitive of Christianity in general, though a lot of Christians nod their heads when they read things like this...

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Bullshit, he's completely right and should only be MORE enthusastic to teach the class now. Regardless, even if he was DEAD WRONG that's no excuse to beat the hell out of him. Let me tell ya, if I had to beat down all the people that I disagreed with I'd have to quit my day job and fight full time (starting with Kidnemo).

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I have no problems with this guy teaching this class, and think he shouldn't be such a pussy and start it back up, but his insults towards Christians were uncalled for, pointless and probably what got him beat down in the first place. If someone walked up to a black man and called him a dirty nig there'd be a doings transpiring shortly thereafter, and this is no different in the way he pushed too far and went over the edge. The Christian's of his region, I guess, were fed up with tolerating comments made about them while any comments made by them were seen as bigotry. What do you expect to happen when you instill a double standard like that in ANY situation? Violence.

There is douchebaggery on both side here.

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Around the same time they traded in their crosses for brown shirts. Take a good look America, this is the true face of the religious right; ignorant, fanatical, violent.

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What a load. So Christian's aren't allowed to hold classes about Creationism and Intelligent Design, yet this person is allowed to openly hold classes criticizing it? That is such a huge double standard. In high school we had a class that just taught theories of creation. Evolution, that intermediary one and creationism were the major focuses. The course just gave the jist of what they were and the counter arguements from both sides and let people write about whichever one they wanted to. It was a great class.

I don't condone the action of beating down a man with blunt objects, but anyone with half a brain can understand why it happened.

Well, when you make fun of people and get beat up, eh

don't care

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Kansas should be bombed off the fucking map.

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This is the kind of thing that happens when people live in a state that fucking flat and boring.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

If someone walked up to a black man and called him a dirty nig there'd be a doings transpiring shortly thereafter, and this is no different in the way he pushed too far and went over the edge. The Christian's of his region, I guess, were fed up with tolerating comments made about them while any comments made by them were seen as bigotry. What do you expect to happen when you instill a double standard like that in ANY situation? Violence.

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No, man. It doesnt matter. A Christian person should NOT be beating anyone up who makes fun of them for their beliefs. Christians are supposed to carry themselves a little better than that and have better self-control in situations like this. I mean ANY mature person should carry themselves a certain way and not fly off the handle at base and possibly insulting comments, but when Christianity demands that of its followers then something is wrong with these "Christians" in a circumstance like this.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Around the same time they traded in their crosses for brown shirts. Take a good look America, this is the true face of the religious right; ignorant, fanatical, violent.

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:lol:

yep, this group represents the entire christian right, you go gozen. oh and who the fuck is that hal guy, never heard of him, he sounds unbalanced. bottom line, real christians dont beat people up, morons do.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Around the same time they traded in their crosses for brown shirts. Take a good look America, this is the true face of the religious right; ignorant, fanatical, violent.

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This is the dumbest thing you've posted yet.

If he'd been beaten by two Mexicans for mocking Latinos and their culture would you have said "Take a good look America, this is the true face of the Latino people; ignorant, fanatical, violent."? You're making yourself look very stupid right now with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

Quite frankly every time you get all bent out of shape over Christianity, you sound no different the nutjobs who "defend" it. Throwing out unfonded blanket statements and self-righteous half-truths.

I thoroughly disapprove of the actions of these so-called "Christians". We are not Islam. If someone attacks our faith, we are to grin and bear it. It's fine to be angry, but not to sin.

Don't use logic

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

This is the dumbest thing you've posted yet.

If he'd been beaten by two Mexicans for mocking Latinos and their culture would you have said "Take a good look America, this is the true face of the Latino people; ignorant, fanatical, violent."? You're making yourself look very stupid right now with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

.

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well, he said christian right, not christians in general, he probably meant both, but he only said the one. even then it was a stupid blanket statement, but technically he was only referring to one facet of christianity which, in truth, neither you nor i belong to, and thus cant knowledgeably comment on. but dont feed the kitty.

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Originally Posted by Jetman

No, man. It doesnt matter. A Christian person should NOT be beating anyone up who makes fun of them for their beliefs. Christians are supposed to carry themselves a little better than that and have better self-control in situations like this. I mean ANY mature person should carry themselves a certain way and not fly off the handle at base and possibly insulting comments, but when Christianity demands that of its followers then something is wrong with these "Christians" in a circumstance like this.

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I know, and I agree, but I still understand how they feel and why it happened. It's impossible to expect every Christian to have the self control and mindset to do this, though. Some people are quick to anger, it's their personality. I don't condone the actions, but I completely understand why it happened.

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

We are not Islam. If someone attacks our faith, we are to grin and bear it. It's fine to be angry, but not to sin.

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What the hell is that supposed to mean? Your argument would hold more water if you didn't lash out at other religions.

And really, is "Big Fat Faces" such an insult to Christians that someone has to get beaten over it?

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Originally Posted by Jed

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Your argument would hold more water if you didn't lash out at other religions.

And really, is "Big Fat Faces" such an insult to Christians that someone has to get beaten over it?

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Kansas Christians are very self conscious about their chubby cheeks.

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Originally Posted by Jed

What the hell is that supposed to mean? Your argument would hold more water if you didn't lash out at other religions.

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I wasn't lashing out at anybody.

One of the tenets of Islam is to defend their faith from outsiders by any means necessary, including war.

Christians have no such edict. If they want to behead us and kill us because of our faith in Christ then we are supposed to allow it.

I have driven through Kansas. Once. Everyone there had the same bumps on their face that Lemmy has. Everyone there is above the age of 55. I'll never go back.

P.S. Fanatical religious zealots always make sad. This story is no different.

P.P.S. Heres to the land you've torn out the heart of. Hey Kansas, find yourself another country to be part of.

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

One of the tenets of Islam is to defend their faith from outsiders by any means necessary, including war.

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I seriously doubt that any Muslim that isn't a religious fanatic would "wage war" on someone who said they had a fat face.

Maybe because I'm not religious, but why do religious folks get their panties in such a bunch over people that don't share their views? This is an honest question. Why even give a fuck about people who don't agree with you?

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Originally Posted by Jed

Maybe because I'm not religious, but why do religious folks get their panties in such a bunch over people that don't share their views? This is an honest question. Why even give a fuck about people who don't agree with you?

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It instills DOUBT :O

That and, every major religion on the globe has a conveniently placed clause in their belief system to try and "Help/Indoctrinate" the huddled, ignorant masses. This in no way is meant to pad their numbers and make any official, representative body more money. Not at all.

Jed:

My girl's best friend is a hXc Christian. What she said is "It makes her really sad that I'm going to hell because I'm not saved."

My sister and her family are all super Christians too. The kids go to Jesus camp, they only listen to christian music (except CVC... lolz) Its weird.

Its like when I find a new album and want to tell everyone about it. Say I think its the best and most important album ever. Something really important to rock and roll, and music in general. Except the album is Jesus, and nobody wants to hear it. I would imagine its pretty frustrating.

I don't know if I'm making any sense at all, or if this is even close to your question.

His exact quote to the Christian group was "There is no god and I'm here to rub it in your faces".

Profs are always being assholes and thinking they are above an ass-whooping. When I went to school a professor came in to talk to us to get us to take his class. He came in and said "There is no God, I know it and you know it. You people that think there is a god should take my class so you can all admit how foolish you are."

Nice.

Yeah, I think he deserved to have his smarmy attitude taken down a notch... if that's the reason for the beating, it's somewhat understandable. But if it was Christians taking umbrage to his anti-Christian sentiments, then the act is completely contradictory to what the perpetrators were trying to defend.

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

Christians have no such edict. If they want to behead us and kill us because of our faith in Christ then we are supposed to allow it.

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Exactly. Unfortunately, Christians have used every historical opportunity to do the opposite.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

Well, when you make fun of people and get beat up, eh

don't care

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You never ever fucking care. Why the fuck do you even post on this board anymore?

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

This is the dumbest thing you've posted yet.

If he'd been beaten by two Mexicans for mocking Latinos and their culture would you have said "Take a good look America, this is the true face of the Latino people; ignorant, fanatical, violent."? You're making yourself look very stupid right now with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

Quite frankly every time you get all bent out of shape over Christianity, you sound no different the nutjobs who "defend" it. Throwing out unfonded blanket statements and self-righteous half-truths.

I thoroughly disapprove of the actions of these so-called "Christians". We are not Islam. If someone attacks our faith, we are to grin and bear it. It's fine to be angry, but not to sin.

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Don't mind Gozan. He is the only nerd that lives up in the hills. His buck tooth hillbilly brothers make fun of him daily for his computer skills. As a result he is a big ball of hate and despises anything to do with the culture around him.

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Bullshit, he's completely right and should only be MORE enthusastic to teach the class now. Regardless, even if he was DEAD WRONG that's no excuse to beat the hell out of him. Let me tell ya, if I had to beat down all the people that I disagreed with I'd have to quit my day job and
fight full time (starting with Kidnemo).

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SNAP!

I will gladly take this fight on the condition that videos can be made of the outcome and said videos will be posted to TNL.

lol OK, first of all it is WRONG to beat up professors and uh, humans in general. But maybe, the rednecks with "big fat faces" got mad that he called them dumb and were irritated that he said they have...big fat faces? :lol: Seriously, both parties are looking mighty stupid from this end.

One of my friends here is an english professor and I think he might find the "big fat faces" a bit amusing on the broad adjective end of things.

And that Hal Turner....that man needs to be tied up with the equally enraged Michael Salvage and both hauled off to the booby hatch.

And it's nice to know the loonies from talk radio tell me terrorism is bad yet it's ok for "Christians" to flip out and go totally sweet on someone?

As for intelligent design, I don't know what the classes themselves are like but why is it so bad to say some creatures seem to be "built"? I see an animal and I'm reminded of a "well tuned machine" if that makes any sense. There are many biochemists and physicists who have at least been using "design analogies" so to speak for many years.

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Originally Posted by Kidnemo

SNAP!

I will gladly take this fight on the condition that videos can be made of the outcome and said videos will be posted to TNL.

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You two can dress up too. Gozan can be the "HillBilly Thunder" He can have a long beard, no shoes, overalls, and a moonshien jug with XXX on it. His special move can be taking a gulp of moonshine and using a lighter to do a fireball on you.

BTW, I know where I can barow a $1200 camera if you two really want to do this.

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Originally Posted by Jed

I seriously doubt that any Muslim that isn't a religious fanatic would "wage war" on someone who said they had a fat face.

Maybe because I'm not religious, but why do religious folks get their panties in such a bunch over people that don't share their views? This is an honest question. Why even give a fuck about people who don't agree with you?

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Last time I checked lobbing insults towards a group of people wasn't not sharing common views.

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

And it's nice to know the loonies from talk radio tell me terrorism is bad yet it's ok for "Christians" to flip out and go totally sweet on someone?

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It is just my opinion, but I think there are two types of Christians. Cultural ones and ones of faith. Christians of faith really believe what the bible says and stick by it (or at least try to.) Christians by culture however, are people who keep the bible and those things related to it alive because it is part of their culture. They were born into it.

The second group doesn't really pay attention to what they are being taught at church, if they even go to church. For them the teachings of the religion are just a kind of a back ground noise to their simple lives. Church for them is more of a get together of people in the town, than a time to share faith or spirituality. Christians of faith don't really consider Christians by culture to be real Christians.

The people who beat this guy up are Christians by culture. They felt that their culture, a thing that is probably a huge part of who they are, was attacked. And thus they felt attacked. So they attacked back in some desperate and angry attempt to preserve their culture, a culture that most people like this feel is dying and being destroyed by the "evil atheist liberal left." They didn’t stop to think about the books of the Bible that say that you probably shouldn’t beat the tar out of a guy for talking shit and they also probably didn’t think about how if they killed him, they would be responsible for him going to hell (because they knew he was an atheist.)

Shit like this is probably going to keep happening if not get worse from one case to the next. There are a pretty large number of these fake Christians that feel their way of life is being destroyed. These people do not want a one America with one culture if it cost them their culture.

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Originally Posted by Master

His exact quote to the Christian group was "There is no god and I'm here to rub it in your faces".

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Exactly. People are getting all ignorant on the subject and ignoring the fact that this dude was being a huge smug douchebag by, basically, bashing a lot of people. Again I refer you to my nigger comment in my first post. What did he expect to happen? You can only push people so far.

Man you are loving getting away with saying nigger.

And yeah, this smug asshole totally deserved it.

I never said nigger once.

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

This is the dumbest thing you've posted yet.

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I'll never top you with your 'god cured my herpes' statement, that will always be in the top spot.

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

If he'd been beaten by two Mexicans for mocking Latinos and their culture would you have said "Take a good look America, this is the true face of the Latino people; ignorant, fanatical, violent."? You're making yourself look very stupid right now with the anti-Christian rhetoric.

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Completely different situation. Race and religion are entirely different things. Also, and it surprises me that of all people frostwolf noticed this, I said the Christian RIGHT. I stand by statements, too, because they're entirely true and can be supported with evidence.

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Originally Posted by Master of 7s

Quite frankly every time you get all bent out of shape over Christianity, you sound no different the nutjobs who "defend" it. Throwing out unfonded blanket statements and self-righteous half-truths.

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Bullshit. Have I called out anyone to come beat you up for your beliefs? Have I personally threatened you because you're a Christian? No, so shut the fuck up because unless I've done either of those things I am in no way comparable to those idiots.

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Originally Posted by IronPlant

Don't mind Gozan. He is the only nerd that lives up in the hills. His buck tooth hillbilly brothers make fun of him daily for his computer skills. As a result he is a big ball of hate and despises anything to do with the culture around him.

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Atleast, unlike IP, I don't wash down my meals with a frothing glass of urine.

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Originally Posted by Kidnemo

SNAP!

I will gladly take this fight on the condition that videos can be made of the outcome and said videos will be posted to TNL.

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Only on the condition that you shave your chin pubes. They give you an unfair advantage...That and your superior athleticism, training, experience, etc.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

Exactly. People are getting all ignorant on the subject and ignoring the fact that this dude was being a huge smug douchebag by, basically, bashing a lot of people. Again I refer you to my nigger comment in my first post. What did he expect to happen? You can only push people so far.

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The N word is a bad example. Technically no one should ever get beat up for a few verbal insults, no matter what the word is. It happens, but those who are involved are wrong for it. It would be better to just call them something equally bad and things be done. But you will get away with using the N word because of the strong emotions attached to it. Using emotions to gain support for your argument however does not make your points more valid.

You really need to think about your argument. You could use the same logic to say that those kids who shot their fellow students at Columbine was ok.

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Originally Posted by Josh

Jed:

My girl's best friend is a hXc Christian. What she said is "It makes her really sad that I'm going to hell because I'm not saved."

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That reminds me of something that happened on Da Ali G show. Borat interviews a Born-Again Christian named James Broadwater who was running for Congress. Borat asked Broadwater what religion you had to be to get into Heaven, to which he replied "The only way to Heaven is through Jesus." "What about the Jews?" inquired Borat. Broadwater blantly replied, "Well, I would have to say that they'll go to Hell." Needless to say, Broadwater lost the election.

I love these arrogant assholes that condem those of us that aren't "saved" to eternal damnation, yet feel sorry for our future suffering at the same time.

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My sister and her family are all super Christians too. The kids go to Jesus camp, they only listen to christian music (except CVC... lolz) Its weird.

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Same with my Uncle and his family. Of course, it's because they're all former drug addicts/alcoholics and they needed something to take the place of the coke and Jack Daniel's, but whatever.

I don't condone the violence at all, so no.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm just making the point that when you continually keep pushing buttons you're bound to make a few people angry. In this case it isn't a collective whole that seems like it's coming down on a few outcasts (like a Columbine) but one direct source that continually insults people of a certain faith, and is actually doing something to potentially harm it.

I disagree with the beating 100%, it shouldn't have happened. But this isn't a perfect world and people have limits. You have yours whether you know them or not and I have mine, too. Apparently he crossed theirs.

The n word example is just an example of people being pushed over the limit through words. If a cocky little white fucker walked up to a group of black guys and started calling them niggers with big noses and lips or whatever he'd get his ass handed to him. That doesn't make every black person an evil-doer.

He was in the wrong for doing it and they were in the wrong for not ignoring him or walking away from it, but that little white bastard started the initial confrontation so we cut the black guys some slack for what they did. I really don't mean to be saying the n word this much.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Same with my Uncle and his family. Of course, it's because they're all former drug addicts/alcoholics and they needed something to take the place of the coke and Jack Daniel's, but whatever.

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this happens a lot.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

I don't condone the violence at all, so no.

I'm not arguing anything. I'm just making the point that when you continually keep pushing buttons you're bound to make a few people angry. In this case it isn't a collective whole that seems like it's coming down on a few outcasts (like a Columbine) but one direct source that continually insults people of a certain faith, and is actually doing something to potentially harm it.

I disagree with the beating 100%, it shouldn't of happened. But this isn't a perfect world and people have limits. You have yours whether you know them or not and I have mine, too. Apparently he crossed theirs.

The n word example is just an example of people being pushed over the limit through words. If a cocky little white fucker walked up to a group of black guys and started calling them niggers with big noses and lips or whatever he'd get his ass handed to him. That doesn't make every black person an evil-doer.

He was in the wrong for doing it and they were in the wrong for not ignoring him or walking away from it. I really don't mean to be saying the n word this much.

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If I ever do something bad out of anger, I hope the jury feels the same way.

"I think it is obvious that we should let him go. What man wouldn't get that mad and rob a bank? Come on people, COME ON!?!"


Would you talk like this if some newb beat Josh up over some trolling? No you wouldn't. Andrew, half of this board says worse shit than that man did every freaking day and in every post on this board. People do not need to get beat up over 3 or 4 words of text in fucking mailing list.

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Originally Posted by IronPlant

If I ever do something bad out of anger, I hope the jury feels the same way.

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Are you seriously saying this? I already told you I disagree 100% with the beating, so no, you wouldn't be getting free. I'd have your ass in jail so fast and think those two guys who beat him up should be fined or imprisoned, but this is the court room of public opinion not law, so the rules are a bit different.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

Are you seriously saying this? I already told you I disagree 100% with the beating, so no, you wouldn't be getting free. I'd have your ass in jail so fast and think those two guys who beat him up should be fined or imprisoned.

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Then why do you bother pointing it out? Do you really think that no one on this board knows that "bad thing + bad thing = sometimes a asskicking."

If you don't agree with it, then why bother. It isn't like anyone here doesn't understand the basic idea and you need to point it out, IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT.

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Originally Posted by IronPlant

Then why do you bother pointing it out? Do you really think that no one on this board knows that "bad thing + bad thing = sometimes a asskicking."

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Because this is a discussion forum and I think it's a valid issue to bring up in light of these events. Sometimes assholes get fucked by dicks, it's a part of life.

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If you don't agree with it, then why bother. It isn't like anyone here doesn't understand the basic idea and you need to point it out, IF YOU DON'T AGREE WITH IT.

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Uhh Jetman took an opposing stance with what I said, as did you. You've been on TNL longer than I have, you know how this works.

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

As for intelligent design, I don't know what the classes themselves are like but why is it so bad to say some creatures seem to be "built"?

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Because science doesn't support it, and because "well, that's what it looks like it could be on the surface" isn't sufficient evidence given that it almost never holds up for anything in nature (a single glance at the sun indicates that it revolves around us, but it doesn't). Once it has met the same burden of proof that all other scientific theories have to meet (it must make accurate and dependable predictions, among many other things), then fine, allow it. But it hasn't. If the religious right truly believe in this as science, maybe they should put less effort into trying to cram it sideways into schools and more effort into legitimate research.

"Also, and it surprises me that of all people frostwolf noticed this, I said the Christian RIGHT. I stand by statements, too, because they're entirely true and can be supported with evidence"

No they can't. You're still generalizing, and everytime you say that "they can be supported with evidence", it makes you look even worse.

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Originally Posted by sethsez

Because science doesn't support it, and because "well, that's what it looks like it could be on the surface" isn't sufficient evidence given that it almost never holds up for anything in nature (a single glance at the sun indicates that it revolves around us, but it doesn't). Once it has met the same burden of proof that all other scientific theories have to meet (it must make accurate and dependable predictions, among many other things), then fine, allow it. But it hasn't. If the religious right truly believe in this as science, maybe they should put less effort into trying to cram it sideways into schools and more effort into legitimate research.

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:tu:

And, of course, that's the beauty of religion. It's based on "faith" so they don't have to prove anything. Like the Bible says, "Proof denies Faith, and without Faith I am nothing." Exactly. It's the perfect cop-out.

Iron: I know what you're saying, about the "those who actually follow/'cultural'." Don't disagree at all, you said what I was thinking.

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Originally Posted by Master
His exact quote to the Christian group was "There is no god and I'm here to rub it in your faces".

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I missed this bit, that is very lame. Thank you professor Stuffed Shirt. I feel so enlightened. What a condescending idiot. He might as well have been making shout out to some rival rappers. :p

I wonder what school this guy teaches at. I don't know about the colleges that everyone else here goes to, but of the two I've gone to, such childish banter with students is frowned on. The faculty is expected to act some what more mature than the students it teaches.

I'm sure they frowned at him.

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

Iron: I know what you're saying, about the "those who actually follow/'cultural'." Don't disagree at all, you said what I was thinking.

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Would you agree with me in saying that a lot of the conflict between "conservatives" and "liberals" mostly comes down to technology shrinking the country and one group or the other not wanting to change or lose its culture? That a lot of the right/left political arguments have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with one group not wanting to change?

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Originally Posted by sethsez

Because science doesn't support it, and because "well, that's what it looks like it could be on the surface" isn't sufficient evidence given that it almost never holds up for anything in nature (a single glance at the sun indicates that it revolves around us, but it doesn't). Once it has met the same burden of proof that all other scientific theories have to meet (it must make accurate and dependable predictions, among many other things), then fine, allow it. But it hasn't. If the religious right truly believe in this as science, maybe they should put less effort into trying to cram it sideways into schools and more effort into legitimate research.

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But there are many scientists, both those who believe in God and those who don't at all who in effect say "this looks like design," or "this looks like 'programming.' "

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=315976

Look at Antony Flew, until last year a famous atheist and renowned British Philosophy professor. He sites "evidence of design" as his reason for be coming a believer. So the concept of "design in nature" is not just some "fanciful" notion that people such as the intelligent design proponents just came up with all of a sudden on a whim.

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Yet biologists' investigation of DNA (Flew): "has shown, by the almost unbelievable complexity of the arrangements which are needed to produce (life), that intelligence must have been involved," Flew says in the new video, "Has Science Discovered God?"

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Once it has met the same burden of proof that all other scientific theories have to meet

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Has evolution passed all the burden of proof from that scientific tests dictate? No. If anything, it's a theory with many 'inner theories' that are constantly changing. And all lab experiments with electricity and non living matter have produced at the most, amino acids. Interesting, but i need a little more convincing that amino acids and RNA could arrange themselves into DNA.

Sir Fred Hoyle an evolutionist (propoent for the side theory that the 'spark of life' arrived from meterite/spave debris IIRC) asked the same question. How did each 'right' and 'left-handed' string of amino acid arrange itself so nicely?

I believe in God and I believe in science. But just as someone says "You can't 'prove' God exists," on the same token evolution takes just as much of a leap of faith.

Just as you see evidence for evolution, adaptation and structure through chance based on things you have studied or seen in nature, I see evidence of some kind of conscious thought.

I don't think it'd hurt to have a quote from scientist A who says "This is surely adaptation" or scientist B who says "This seems to indicate design."

The whole classroom thing is just a big political mess. A person has to again make the decision on their own and this can sometimes take a lifetime as seen in Mr. Flew's case.

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

I believe in God and I believe in science. But just as someone says "You can't 'prove' God exists," on the same token evolution takes just as much of a leap of faith.

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As we established in another thread months ago, you don't even know what evolution actually is, and have plenty of misconceptions about what scientists actually say about it. I won't debate this with you for that reason.

That was the March of the Penguins thread, I believe.

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Originally Posted by sethsez

As we established in another thread months ago, you don't even know what evolution actually is, and have plenty of misconceptions about what scientists actually say about it. I won't debate this with you for that reason.

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My sarcasm from the past aside, if a scientist says "This shows design" OR "This adaptation came about by chance" that is pretty straightforward.

Haha

Edit: Aww, you edited it.

And no, I'm not ignoring everything you're saying. Your points were addressed already months ago in that thread, and it became clear that you didn't have a fundamental understanding of how evolution worked so the more intricate aspects were naturally completely lost on you. Furthermore, a scientist "converting" means nothing... what matters are the facts, and how well the theory holds up. Einstein wrote off quantum mechanics, but he was wrong. If a scientist says "this shows design" then it will have to be shown how it shows design, not just taken at face value. Then, of course, it will have to be shown that it's intentional design from an intelligent creator.

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Originally Posted by sethsez

Haha

Edit: Aww, you edited it.

And no, I'm not ignoring everything you're saying. Your points were addressed already months ago in that thread, and it became clear that you didn't have a fundamental understanding of how evolution worked so the more intricate aspects were naturally completely lost on you. Furthermore, a scientist "converting" means nothing... what matters are the facts, and how well the theory holds up. Einstein wrote off quantum mechanics, but he was wrong.

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I'm not saying "A philosopher/atheist converted, the end." Just saying that the whole intelligent design snafu here in the states isn't a new line of thought.

My understanding of evolution is that it's the progression of life exclusively through chance adaptations. I simply can't believe that based on what I have seen.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

:tu:

And, of course, that's the beauty of religion. It's based on "faith" so they don't have to prove anything. Like the Bible says, "Proof denies Faith, and without Faith I am nothing." Exactly. It's the perfect cop-out.

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What scripture and verse is that?

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

My understanding of evolution is that it's the progression of life exclusively through chance adaptations. I simply can't believe that based on what I have seen.

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You are aware that it takes an absurd amount of time to happen in larger species, right? It's not something you're going to see firsthand in your lifetime through casual observation, which is why you can't rely on that. And just for the record, it's chance mutations. The mutations are random, but what stays and what goes is dependant entirely on what works and what doesn't. Outside forces are extremely important to evolution.

Of course, we also observe it in plants, livestock (through selective breeding), and especially diseases, since bacteria reproduce at an extremely fast pace, making the changes easier to observe (why do you think we're constantly coming out with new, stronger antibiotics as the old ones become ineffective?).

Nice, this means I can finally take out my "FAH-Q CHRISTIANS" paddle and start going to town.

If this happened in a high school, I wouldn't care.
But, these are full grown adults who hoppped out their car and whooped the shit out this guy for bashing their religion.
Sure, he might have been arrogant and just a plain douche, but that's not how you solve your damn problems. People have a constitutional right to say what they want and I must have mised the part where it was ok to assault someone for that.
Also, Kansas sucks balls.

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Originally Posted by sethsez

You are aware that it takes an absurd amount of time to happen in larger species, right? It's not something you're going to see firsthand in your lifetime through casual observation, which is why you can't rely on that. And just for the record, it's chance mutations. The mutations are random, but what stays and what goes is dependant entirely on what works and what doesn't. Outside forces are extremely important to evolution.

Of course, we also observe it in plants, livestock (through selective breeding), and especially diseases, since bacteria reproduce at an extremely fast pace, making the changes easier to observe (why do you think we're constantly coming out with new, stronger antibiotics as the old ones become ineffective?).

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Yeah, I realize that evolution states countless millions of years are required for said changes to happen. But I don't think that fits in with livestick/produce within a species being consciously helped along by the hand of man. Outside of microscopic life and organisms which are from the same basic species, mutations are almost always detrimental. Look at the fruit fly experiments.

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

But I don't think that fits in with livestick/produce within a species being helped along by the hand of man.

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In other words, in this case man is the outside force. In other cases, it might be a sudden explosion of some creature (say, locusts) in the population. There's no rule that says another creature can't play a central role in evolution... in fact, that's what the cause often is.

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Outside of microscopic life and organisms which are from the same basic species, mutations are almost always detrimental.

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You are 100% correct. Mutations are almost always detrimental. That's why it takes so long. Out of 10,000 possible mutations, 9,998 might be detrimental, but hit on one of the 2 that are beneficial and they'll survive. Be born with a gigantic lump on your heart and this mutation will fuck you up. Be born with an opposable thumb and you're made.

OK, that's the thing though. I'm born with a thumb: great new feature. All of my 'lil possum kiddies can now play roms. If it's a mutation, something that has been "added," how does "thumb" or "lump" get written into my genetic code as "normal for sucessive generations of offspring" if it's supposed to be "bad" and my DNA isn't exactly friendly to re-writes?

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

if it's supposed to be "bad"

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It isn't. Nature doesn't have "good" or "bad" mutations, just ones that work and ones that don't.

I know. That's why I wrapped the word bad in quotation marks.

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

I simply can't believe that based on what I have seen.

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Yeah, I remember the last time I saw Jesus.

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But I don't think that fits in with livestick/produce within a species being consciously helped along by the hand of man.

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That's evolution. Like we went over before, evolution is not contridictory to God. Whether it's by chance or a higher power, evolution is the process with which things change. If God made you what you are today and you were born a firefly, you would have evolved.

Disagreeing with the element of chance is fine, but disagreeing with evolution is pretty silly.

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OK, that's the thing though. I'm born with a thumb: great new feature. All of my 'lil possum kiddies can now play roms. If it's a mutation, something that has been "added," how does "thumb" or "lump" get written into my genetic code as "normal for sucessive generations of offspring" if it's supposed to be "bad" and my DNA isn't exactly friendly to re-writes?

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Mutations are like "jumps" in evolution, something that suddenly happened. Good evolution is normally a very gradual process by which when something is needed to survive the species will very slowly, over generations, adapt in some way to live in the environment. You don't just suddenly have a thumb and then all your kids have thumbs.

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Yeah, I remember the last time I saw Jesus.

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You're taking what I side out of context but whether or not you believe he's the Messiah, he had a major impact on history and there are both Roman records and even quotes from respected Jewish historians such as Josephus who mentioned his trial and death. I don't need to see him to believe he is and was a real person just as you cannot see the evolution process gradually unfold firsthand yet you feel you have enough evidence to believe in it.

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

You're taking what I side out of context but whether or not you believe he's the Messiah, he had a major impact on history and there are both Roman records and even quotes from respected Jewish historians such as Josephus who mentioned his trial and death. I don't need to see him to believe he is and was a real person just as you cannot see the evolution process gradually unfold firsthand yet you feel you have enough evidence to believe in it.

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We kind of got the shitty end of the stick didn't we? People back 2000 years ago got to see all sorts of awesome supernatural things.

We get jack shit.

Well, there's "good supernatural" and "bad supernatural." Most supernatural people claim to see these days is described as "bad." Like some of the "stuff" the rednecks down in places like Kansas see. :p

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Originally Posted by Dylan1CC

You're taking what I side out of context

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It wasn't a direct response to that, I was making another point. You'll see in a second.

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but whether or not you believe he's the Messiah, he had a major impact on history and there are both Roman records and even quotes from respected Jewish historians such as Josephus who mentioned his trial and death.

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Similar goes for Martin Luther King Jr., but his existance and standing up for a cause doesn't make me believe in a specific god.

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I don't need to see him to believe he is and was a real person just as you cannot see the evolution process gradually unfold firsthand yet you feel you have enough evidence to believe in it.

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The flaw with your argument is that we have seen the evolution process happen, but your idea was exactly my point. You're fighting against something with the idea that because you haven't witnessed it it can't possibly be true which is why you chose to believe in something that you haven't witnessed.

Get it?

I don't see how opposing the forced teaching of Christian propaganda in public schools constitutes bigotry.
OMFG Christians are so oppressed!

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Originally Posted by g0zen

Completely different situation. Race and religion are entirely different things. Also, and it surprises me that of all people frostwolf noticed this,.

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er, fuck you.

Forgive me, go on..You know you want to.

well, yes, actually you free saturday night?

BOW CHICKA BA DOW DOW

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

:tu:

And, of course, that's the beauty of religion. It's based on "faith" so they don't have to prove anything. Like the Bible says, "Proof denies Faith, and without Faith I am nothing." Exactly. It's the perfect cop-out.

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...and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.

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Originally Posted by YellerDog

...and promptly vanished in a puff of logic.

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yeha that was hitchikers guide, not scripture, unless you think hhg is scripture, in which case you are a big fucking nerd. :D


and yes, i know, i am one too.

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Originally Posted by IronPlant

Would you agree with me in saying that a lot of the conflict between "conservatives" and "liberals" mostly comes down to technology shrinking the country and one group or the other not wanting to change or lose its culture? That a lot of the right/left political arguments have nothing to do with religion and everything to do with one group not wanting to change?

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Definitely. Some people just express their beliefs in an extremely poor way (like the professor and the redneck guys who beat him). And of course, many (if not most) use their religion solely to serve their own self interests which negates positive change or wanting to get along peacefully with someone. So yeah, as the population expands the two groups start to butt heads and the rotten apples start to really come out of the woodwork. Interesting point.

edit: The fact is, the politics of man and religion are NOT supposed to mix (goes without saying). It's a disastrous mixture. Jesus hid when the people tried to make him king. The apostles for awhile scratched their heads because the Jews were anticipating the messiah to be a "physical" king like David who would overthrow the romans (the apostles often asked him 'are you restoring the kingdom to Israel at this time? Acts 1:7 IOW 'Are you going to defeat the Romans now and replace that evil guy Herod who is in office now?'). But the answer was no. And they and all christians after him were supposed to imitate him and do the same.

Remember, the apostles were viewed by the religious leaders scornfully as "unlettered and ordinary." Basically they were viewed as "country bumpkins." So coming from a rural Hebrew culture that longed for the government to be changed, they'd especially be predisposed to a fierce "fighting spirit" which Jesus had to gradually wean them off of.

And everything else he preached emphasized a spiritual kingdom that would bring changes, both heavenly and on the earth (Matt 6:9 and10).

But through the centuries most christians ignored Jesus teachings on "kingdom" which has just contributed to the problem and aggravatted it. Said ignoring of these principals leads to petty situations like the subject of this thread about the Prof getting beat, and waaaaay more severe and scary situations like "God is guiding me to carry out this war." :rolleyes:

Again as I said in a post earlier, the decision a person makes on these things can't be made/forced in a classroom. It takes a personal, conscious decision. Watching Joe Shlubb Professor and Billy Bobb Briggs fighting on the sidelines is just another distraction.

Anyways, that's pretty much all I have to say on this. Hope I was able to express myself OK and not ruffle too many feathers. :p