I searched for a topic about this and didn't find anything. He is about to be killed by lethal injection.
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I searched for a topic about this and didn't find anything. He is about to be killed by lethal injection.
Must suck to have to ask someone named the Terminator for clemency, eh?
I had no idea what the hell was going on with this until I saw some shit on the news this morning.
I still don't get it.
Whats not to get? The guy helps go-found the Crips, gets convicted of murdering 4 people i believe, sentenced to death but takes forever (30 years or so) for him to use all his appeals and such, final appeal denied, his lawyer tries to get clemency from the govenor because he later wrote a book which trys to get kids to avoid gang violence I think, and the gov denies the request. flick the switch.
Well it's officially now. Tookie Williams is dead.
good ol' cnn
BREAKING NEWS:
Williams wore glasses entire time
Exactly.Quote:
Originally Posted by Error
What I meant was that I didn't understand what the big deal was.
Because while he was on Death Row he brokered a landmark truce between the Crips and the Bloods that saved the lives of hundreds of black youths across the nation, policemen, and who knows how many innocent bystanders. He also worked on numerous books for teens, children, and adults that in every way possible discouraged gang membership and the 'gang lifestyle.'
Not that any of that somehow voids the blood he spilt and refused to confess to, but you wanted to know why it was a 'big deal'.
I did. Now I know. Thanks.
Yeah, he did a lot of good work since he was jailed, but that doesn't change the fact that he murdered 4 people, in addition to starting a (now) nationwide gang that's been responsible for countless more murders. He just should be happy that made the best use of the time he had left, but that doesn't change what he did. I mean, would he have had this change of heart and done all this great humantarian work if he had never been arrested to begin with? I doubt it.
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by Rich
Agreed...he did a lot to change his ways, but he has done some band things in his past...
He didn't help one bit in proving that Suge had Tupac and Biggie killed, so fuck him.
Is this about changing facts, is it about the need for some cosmic metaphysical justice, or is it about affecting some practical outcome? I think most would say the latter, which is why all of that is relevant. If the man is doing good on the planet, if he's reformed, then what is to be gained from killing him?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dolemite
Justice.
Replacing someone doing wrong with someone doing good (reform) is better than replacing it with nothing.
The person you are now is not the person you will be in 30 years.
Some people can (imo) never be reformed (serial killers, serial sexual offenders) but some can.
I'm glad I don't have to make these decisions.
If you're going to kill somebody, do it faster to make sure he's still the same person when it happens.
You kill an innocent, you die. Simple rule, I think.
It's about justice for the families of those he murdered and the fact that there are ramifications for your acts. This man not only murdered 4 people (thet we know of, there must have been more), but started a movement that lead to the deaths of many more. The work he's done since is great, but he hardly deserves a "reward".
Would you think differently if that was a family member of yours that he killed, as opposed to some nameless, faceless nobody?
So everyone who is involved in an industrial accident, a car accident in which neither reckless driving or intoxication are involved, or a soldier or pilot who causes the death of a civilian all need to be executed. I say you should do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
Deal. For about half of those.
You know, I am talking about murder when I say "you kill", right? RIGHT? Right.
Don't assume
Good thing that he's gone
How do you define murder? If a DUI driver runs over a little girl on her bike, he's murdered her, without intending to. The same goes for a pilot who drops a bomb in a city trying to kill Osama, but instead kills 20 nobodies who were at work. He didn't mean to kill them, but his actions directly led to their deaths. Yet, we do not consider that a murder. The point is, you can't make a blanket statement like "killers be killed" and think it'll hold up.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
I would say that it is a matter of principle. If you let him off the hook what's to stop another, legitimate, criminal from writing books and doing things to help sway himself away from the penalty, too? It opens the door to a wide variety of cases being subdued simply because someone later decided to play nice and that underminds the justice system you have in place to take care of criminals like him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
It's unfortunate that he committed these crimes far before he reformed in to the man he died as, but he still did the deed and therefore, under law, must ride out his sentence for it. In this case, death by lethal injection.
Well put.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
I agree. Electric chair off of the court room, perhaps? The only thing is that you need to have a time period for errors to pop up. Several people have been saved from death row because of the emergance of DNA testing. Back then cops always "had a gut feeling" about stuff and a lot of the judicial process stemmed from testimony. Now scientific evidence is required in certain scenarios to make or break cases.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
Andrew brought the wood there. But he needs to remember that the principal is your pal
So, then, what about all those innocents who have been put to death? There have been a lot. What about the crime committed against their families? Not to mention, the original victims' families still haven't gotten justice. Who answers then? You can't convict the entire criminal justice system of murder, even when it committs it. So, the 'system' is already flawed. However, people want vengeful justice and politicians see no problem in giving it to them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
Such is life. But don't try and make the argument that it's perfect, effective, or even just.
DUI death should = murder = execution.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
Pilot = Government Murder = It's on the heads of the leaders, who unfourtunately, can't be executed.
I still say killers should be killed.
If there is a decent argument for something, then why not? Perfect, no. Effective and just? Maybe.
LOL, so we should carry out the ultimate punishment on a maybe? Sorry, that's not good enough for me. I'm glad you're okay with it though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
So which is it? Killers be killed or are there shades of grey? Can't have it both ways. That's the problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
I couldn't remember which was which. I originally had principle, I should've stuck with my gut.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
When did I ever try to say that? And there's no way to prove if someone is innocent or not unless it's through DNA or new testimony or evidence brought to light. Nobody is even trying to say it's perfect, but it works and it's the best we have right now.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
I promise I just said 'killers should be killed.' Like, 5 times. Come on now. Get with the program.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
That of course makes sense, but I think we can all agree that 30 years' worth of appeal is a ridiculous amount of time.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
The world will never be that simple. Nearly every case will have enough gray area to make your statement irrelevant. Sucks, doesn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE THE DISTINCTION?!?!?
Should people that step on bugs get the death penalty? See, it isn't black and white.
Seriously, who cares if this guy is dead. He killed people and laughed in their faces.
:wtf:Quote:
BUT HOW DO YOU MAKE THE DISTINCTION?!?!?
Should people that step on bugs get the death penalty?
Anyways 30 years of appeals is overkill. Nothing came from that last minute witness they said they had either.
We care because a good man was executed. He did some horrible things, but in the end he also did a lot of great things. Who knows if he was sincere? His actions and the place he was lend to the side of belief a lot more. Yes, Tookie Williams was put to death, but not the Tookie (I can't say this name without smirking) that murdered two people.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
It was just and needed to happen, but it's a mixed bag.
If it takes 30 years of appeals for every prisoner to save even 1 innocent man's life, I say it's more than worth it, and anyone who REALLY cares about justice would agree.
Yes, but because everyone is so lawsuit happy the system is clogged up the wazoo. I'm torn between the long length of time simply because it also makes sure innocent people don't have time to get the plea they deserve.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
Five year turn around on appeals. Then flip the switch. I'd be willing to gamble my own shit on that.
Correct.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
It only took Veronica Mars one year to find her best friend's real killer.
I think 30 years is a bit long, but in the end if it helps save an innocent life then I have no bones with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
I agree with this.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
Did she ever find out who raped her, though?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
It's agreed then, let us bring our case to the supreme court. 3 nerds, one not even from the country in question, one mission.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
Yes she surely did.
And the answer may surprise you.
Joss Whedon was on that show.
Logan brought the illegal rape drug shit to the party. Dick put some into that horrid bitch girlfriend of his's drink, but she did the spit and switch she loves to do (spit in the glass and give it to someone) to Veronica, who drank it and was accidentally drugged. She was rescued from the lawn chair and the other jerks by Duncan. Logan later slipped some of that shit into Duncan's drink. Meanwhile, Dick had a plan to get his geek friend Beaver laid, but it failed. They took Veronica into the bedroom and left Beaver alone with her, but he couldn't do it. A fucked-up Duncan wandered in a few minutes later. They did recognize each other at the time and Veronica did consent but later had no memory of it whatsoever, so she believed she had been raped while Duncan believed he had sex with Veronica (who he had by then been told by his mother was his sister), which is why he never spoke up about it.
In other words, Veronica Mars is the best show ever.
Tookie tookie.
Seriously and think of the money spent. I'm willing to bet that both me and you could get PhDs on what was spent.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
It sounds pretty good, but I don't even think it's available up here in Canada yet. I'll have to check the Space Network to see if they have anything on the go with regards to this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mzo
I forgot that place existed.
Oh it's still there.... yet.
Funny how he had to be incarcerated for years and put on death row in order to become a good man. By then, it was simply too late. Reformed or not, the law is the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
If you can't do the time, don't do the crime. Having people say "I was ignorant back then and know better now" does nothing. Hindsight is 20/20 and the law can't assume that everyone will reform only when they get caught.
Tookie may have done some good things after he got put in jail, but was one mean mofo before and had to atone for that. His deal between the Bloods and Crips saved hundreds, but the gangs themselves killed how many more in all?
I'm anti-death penalty, but the law is what it is. Until it's changed, that's what's going to happen.
You left this part out, Melf.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
People keep glossing this over. The guy started the Crips, for fuck's sake. They're not a Boy Scout troop. If such a man got caught for killing 4 people, it's a safe bet that's he's killed way more than that. Do you think he would have been mr. peace & love if he had never been caught and forced to stare the punishment for his crime in the face for years? Probably not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
Hm, didn't mean to leave that out. More or less sums up how I feel, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Andrew
g0zen's aggressive left-wing douchebaggery in every Sound Off thread makes me want to become a Republican.
I think that the man should die, but I think it's pathetic that we're a society that is so revenge-focused.
What I mean by that is, we as a culture are too stupid to fully understand that taking another person's life is, for the most part, wrong. Most Americans have such a low sense of an indiviual's worth, that they don't see the reprocussions of murder and such crimes. We can't not punish them for these crimes, and the murder of four people, as well as the creation of a group of murdering thugs are a couple of unignorable ones. He should be executed, and I wish I didn't have to say that.
Try and comprehend that.
Quoted for truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas in iraq
Hmm, how about we throw every single death row inmate from Cali in a gymnasium and give them each a syringe with whatever they use when they get executed etc. and televise it. I bet that would get good ratings..lmfao These assholes don't deserve to live a minute longer imo. We are wasting 10's of thousands of dollars every year to feed these murderous assholes. God, what a joke. Tookie can rot in hell, as well as any other human on our planet that purposely kills people in the manner he did.
If you run for public office, I will vote for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincal
No, no, vote for me. My inmate deathmatches take place on the set of American Gladiators.Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave
LOL, and the funny thing was I considered myself incredibly subdued in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas in iraq
Thanks for your feedback, I appreciate any and all suggestions to help me become the BEST poster I can be!Quote:
Originally Posted by Master
He is not innocent.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
Innocence means he didn't do it. he did it. He redeemed himself through good acts. He is a better stronger person than many people still alive, however I think if he sincerely believed he was a better person he would walk with his head up high and willingly accept his death. Back up all the stuff he said in jail and go like a man.
I gotta admit I lost some respect for my community after today.
He's talking about people that are REALLY innocent. Not Tookie
This death penalty thing reminds me why I love liberalism so much- I can commit any heinous act and can either blame my actions on someone else, or justify it by claiming to be repressed by some group/nation/race/religion.
Yeah, but it's never enough.Quote:
Originally Posted by g0zen
Simple, yes. Logical? Not remotely. I've yet to see a solid philisophical argument for retributive justice. It's a hollow notion. You can say "Eye For an Eye" and it's catchy but I can also say "If the glove don't fit, you must aquit" but it doesn't make it true. There's absolutely fuck-all to it. It's a stupid idea if you try to dissect it at all. It's pure religion, and at the very least has no place in our legal system.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
So yeah, that's my challenge. Try to articulate in practical terms why you think retribution is ethically justifiable.
Uh....
....if you try to simplify it like that, you already lose. And no one owes you an argument.
Nobody is losing anything, it's just a discussion.
Less money spent towards keeping killers in jail? Check. I don't want to pay for these fucks to live one day more than they have to under the law.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
Would-be killers know they'd be delt with swiftly and harshly? Check. We'd cut down on pre-meditated crime if the system worked fast enough to make examples. And spur of the moment crime? Bam. Never again.
Snuffing out people who have given up their place in society with violence? Check.
Heck. That's all I really need.
None of that was an argument for retribution for retribution's sake (i.e. what you called "Justice"). Also, the second reason is completely unsubstantiated, and the third in this case would be an argument against you, since we established that he has been positively socially relevant in recent years. But I don't really give a shit because that wasn't what I was looking for.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
It's not a matter of being owed. It's a challenge, not a demand. And I didn't simplify anything, or even present a counter argument, I'm just saying that it's a philosophically weak concept. I personally think it stems from primitive survival instinct to eliminate a threat and doesn't have rational basis If it's something you beleive has real rational grounding, then by all means, complicate it all you like.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
There IS no redeeming it if you kill someone. HE KILLED SOMEONE. A FEW SOMEONES. I don't care if he helped ratify a middle east peace accord. He killed people, he rightly got snuffed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
edit! And it's not retribution for retribution's sake at any rate. It's retribution for the sake of a just society.
Why is that right? You say it as if it's something I should take for granted even though I already said that I find that statement wholly irrational. Why is taking more life preserving some kind of life-valuing ethical principle? It's kind of a fucked notion unless you can explain that whole retributive justice thing. It's anything but as intutive as you seem to think, at the very least.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
Only if you define justice as retributive, in which case it IS precisely retribution for retribution's sake isn't it?Quote:
edit! And it's not retribution for retribution's sake at any rate. It's retribution for the sake of a just society.
What sort of marshmellow moon world do you live on? I'm really curious at this point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
What is the value of rehabilitating killers? Why is it so important that we save a seat for them? Flip the switch baby.
It's a world of ration and reason and not unflinching adherence to dogma regardless of how unsubstantiated. The notion simply doesn't hold water, regardless of how "bad ass" you might think it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
The same as the value of rehabilitating or bettering any life. If someone is creating more good than bad and will likely continue to do so, they are a valued member of society in some sense. It's not about what has happened, but what will happen. At least, that's how I feel. Again, I'm not getting any sense from you that there's a reason behind your values other than that you learned them that way, so it's difficult for me to address your concerns.Quote:
What is the value of rehabilitating killers? Why is it so important that we save a seat for them? Flip the switch baby.
And soooooo... what position are you in to be addressing concerns in the first place?Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
It is COMPLETELY about what happened. You kill someone, your future is fucking gone. That's it. Any value you might have to society after that better be measured in caloric intake on a dogfood label. Murderers have no place in society.
IF the glove don't fit you MUST aquit! You GOTTA!
Bold letters aren't an argument. You keep saying the same exact thing over and over, and I asked you why.
And by addressing concerns I only meant as a participant in a 2 sided discussion, which I have tried to start, but I'm not getting an argument from you.
This is some pretentious shit right here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Frogacuda
You fail to demonstrate how the life of any killer is at all beneficial.
Edit-o-tron: Oh, btw? The bold letters were used to reference a direct line from your quote. That's all. Btw.
I'm not being pretentious at all. You literally have not expanded on your initial statement in any way that could be considered an "argument". I'm not slinging insults, that's just a fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
I have failed to demonstrate nothing. If a killer can, say, spend the rest of his post-killing life saving babies, then it's better to let babies be saved than to sacrifice their lives to no real benefit (to use an exaggerated example).Quote:
You fail to demonstrate how the life of any killer is at all beneficial.
Alright, maybe I have to hand-hold a bit. I forget not everyone knows how to engage in an ethical argument. Let's start at the beginning: What makes anything right? Then we can apply that idea to retribution.
Ah, lol.
Yeah, I'm a philosophy major. So I kind of take a certain methodology of argument for granted. Sorry if I'm a sarcastic ass about it, I was just trying to lead you into a certain type of discussion. I understand fully your premise (I disagree, but you've made it clear enough what it is), but what I said initially was that it doesn't stand up to philisophical inquiry, so I was really only looking for a "Why" based on some system of ethics other than scripture or similar dogma (not to bash religious thinking, even, but they aren't considered "philisophical arguments" nor do I consider them a good basis for the laws of a secular governmnet)
Truth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zerodash
and now, finally, we know what napolm321 thinks. i know that I, for one, will sleep better tonight.
In case you didn't notice, you flaming sack of shit, this ENTIRE thread is composed of what people think. I find it hard to believe you are so fucking stupid you were unable come up with something more creative to say. Do the future gene pool of Americal a favor and drown yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by frostwolf ex
Actually, frostwolf's response was witty and well-timed.
Hey, look, it's simple. You're in the same moral position as pro-choice folks if you support the death penalty.
The life of an unborn child is worth no more or less than that of a serial killer's. If you believe otherwise, you're wrong. I will accept no argument.
Ah, huh.Quote:
Originally Posted by Calliander
I think that no man should have the right to decide who lives and who dies.
I believe it actually costs more money to put someone to death than to lock them up for life.Quote:
Originally Posted by YellerDog
I fail to see how your existence is beneficial. Should we kill you?Quote:
You fail to demonstrate how the life of any killer is at all beneficial.
What would be the benefit of killing these people rather than letting them exist where they can't affect the outside world?
The fact of the matter is, when you kill these people, you aren't hurting them, you are hurting the people who cared for them. Does a serial killers mother deserve to have a son killed?
Keep in mind Napolm is on your side.
Fuck that. It's time a real version of The Running Man. Someone go call Richard Dawson.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sqoon
:lol:Quote:
Originally Posted by NApOLm321
How about an Arnold vs. Tookie brawl. That would be fun! Well too late...lol But really, if someone is on death row that means they have killed people. Why ANYONE would want these people alive is beyond me. These death penalty protesters are so selfish that they won't even put themselves in the shoes of the ones hurt by the deaths. If it was one of their family members or friends or even someone they vaguely knew that was killed by one of these bastards, they wouldn't even hesitate to say, "kill that s.o.b."Quote:
Originally Posted by Grave
Hell, I think a little torture before killing them would be even better. Once word got around about that, these jackasses roaming the streets would think twice about torturing/raping/killing someone. I was flipping through the channels a couple days ago and on Oprah there was a women with her face shot off by her bf/husband. He also killed her mother. One of the sadest things I've seen in awhile. This women sounded like one of the nicest people. And the asshole got LIFE IN PRISON..WTF. I say blow his face off and let him see how that feels. We wouldn't even be killing his mother so It wouldn't even be as bad as she had it. Tell ya what, crime would go way down if I was in charge of this bitch...lol |-)
Tookie: "But..those are last year's winners.."
Arnold: "No..Last year's..losers."
Amber: "Where's Tookie?"
Arnold: "Oh, he had to split."
http://futurcinema.chez-alice.fr/Div.../morituri1.jpg
I don't care if someone killed my girlfriend or a family member or best friend; I would not say "Kill that son of a bitch." It is neither my right (God-given or otherwise) nor within my my authority to decide whether another person lives or dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincal
You will say, "Yeah, but wait until [x] happens, then you'll change your mind."
If I can empathize with a cold-blooded killer who gets to zero hour, where they are going to kill him, and he realizes he doesn't want to die then I can certainly empathize with someone whose wife or friend or sister were murdered. I would want the person to be punished, but death is not a punishment for any crime. Wanting death as a punishment is a reaction from a weak mind, which is actually understandable considering someone you cared about was killed. However, if you can't think past that, and get over the grief caused by the death without taking another person's life, you are weak. That is why most people who are for a death penalty are religious because it is the same sort of weak-will that hangs people on faith in a higher power instead of relying on themselves.
Another thing you may say is, "If you cannot do the time, don't do the crime," which I agree with. Death is not "doing time," or "taking the heat," however. Again, a lack of willpower reaches the conclusion of death.
You may also try to reject what I've said by saying it is MY mind that is weak since I don't "have the balls," or whatever, to put someone to death. We will never see eye-to-eye on that, I guess. Consider this, though: If you were to attempt insulting me or anyone I know I will not get offended, no matter what you say. I bet, however, that I can offend you (and may already have done so). Who has the stronger mind?
First of all, I'm not religious whatsoever. Religion is one of the root's of all evil, imo. Second, there is NO WAY to understand how it feels to have someone close to you MURDERED. It is pretty rare. Not many people have to experience this. Now, I love my fucking family to death. I would be unbelievably hurt if someone killed one of my family members. They are good people who would never even think of HURTING someone physically let alone KILL them. I would not be comfortable living in grief while the mother fucker that killed one of my family members sat in jail watching oprah, getting 3 meals a day and jacking off at night. I say kill that motherfucker.
And, this guy killed 4 people in a period of 2 WEEKS! He killed a WHOLE FAMILY. He made snearing remarks of the sounds the father made after he shot him in the head. To hell with that motherfucker...
And also, if this country was run by fucking people with common sense, guns would be banned in almost all forms, and if it were up to me, banned period. The constitution is fucking out-dated, it needs changes.
How would outlawing guns stop crime? Crooks don't have 2 photo I.D.s or go through the 2-day waiting period for their weapons. Banning guns would change nothing for them, and only make things harder for those who wish to own them for real, sensible reasons.
Tookie: "ARNOLD! Here's your Subzero, now, plain zero!"
http://www.loqtech.com/figs/subzero.gif
Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincal
its time for fun with universal affirmatives.
hey kev, since you have the enlightened view that religion is the root of all evil, and you presumably think what tookie did was evil, then tookie killed these people for religious reasons, right? what have we learned? that kevincal shoots his mouth off without thinking.
Firstly, its "Religion"Quote:
Originally Posted by kevincal
Secondly, Jail isn't exactly a comfortable retreat.
Thirdly, you aren't reading what other people have written.
Lastly, if he is dead what does that change for you?
I'm disappointed arjue. I saw you had posted and I expected another Running Man quote followed with a clever photoshop, yet here you are engaging in back-and-forth like a COMMON TNLer. I must say, from one of the men who brought us "NO YOU FUCK OFF" I had high hopes.
It's all part of life's rich pattern, g0zen, and you better fucking get used to it.
YOU BASTARD, DROP DEAD!