WWE Wrestling Discussion thread...

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
Yes, I think I see your point now, though I still disagree with it. Show does play the vicious heel giant fairly well and does get his fair share of heat.

The problem I have is with the way the guy gets randomly pushed into the main event like this only to degrade the quality of almost any match he's in as one of the worst wrestlers in the WWE, then just as quickly can get shoved back down to the lower-midcard to job to guys like Jeff Hardy, who was already on his way out of the promotion at the time. It's irritating to see the guy yo-yo like that and it only serves to further degrade the promotion in the eyes of many. I know many casual marks out there have selectively short memories with the WWE when it comes to certain things, but it tooks MONTHS of pushing Show at the top card to get most casual marks to forget "Hey...wait, wasn't this guy just losing to that borderline-feminine cruiserweight Jeff Hardy just a couple months ago?".


Tonight's episode of RAW had it's ups and downs. On the plus side the Booker/Christian match was a super-hot start to the show and really got everyone into it. The wrestling was solid, lots of near-falls, and Booker FINALLY went over and won the title. :) I really hope this finally leads to bigger and better things for him and the WWE realizes just what it has on it's hands, and he doesn't get stuck as a midcard champion/championship contender again till kingdom come.

The first 3/4 of the Jericho/Michaels interview was super-hot. Jericho was insanely over as face and Michaels as heel and they REALLY could have gone somewhere with it. Then all of a sudden Jericho reverses himself turning himself half-heel, Michaels starts calling Jericho on his shit and turns half-face, and the crowd is confused and pissed off as hell. Sometimes I think members of the WWE writing team truly are lobotomized, or just love ticking off and alienating the Canadian fans, or both...

And Kane really is doomed. During his promo in Austin's office people in the crowd could already be heard chanting "UGLY!". If he goes heel, fans will chant him with that mercilessly and he will lose all heat he had. If he goes face fans STILL won't take him seriously since it's looking more and more like he'd be booked a lame-duck, pity-me-I'm-ugly face. R.I.P. Kane...

Oh, and my subconscious is already hard at work erasing the visuals of that eye-bleedingly bad Test/Nash match. Keep at it boys, I want that memory out of there by morning! :kirby:

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Yeah but I'd rather them officially end the Big Show fued somehow then just have it drop off for no reason like a typical RAW fued.

BTW, it took 2 weeks for big Show to be written in to a top class heel position on smackdown by Heyman. He's been fueding with lesnar and top stars or put in worthy fueds ever since.

They're doing him right.

I'm glad every time I see the Big Show in a main event spot on SmackDown, he's being used correctly, and barring his little feud with Rey, has been booked as a monster. He's being positioned strong, which helps Brock in a sense, since Big Show is the only man who has been able to pin him on WWE TV.

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Originally posted by Andrew
Yeah but I'd rather them officially end the Big Show fued somehow then just have it drop off for no reason like a typical RAW fued.

BTW, it took 2 weeks for big Show to be written in to a top class heel position on smackdown by Heyman. He's been fueding with lesnar and top stars or put in worthy fueds ever since.

They're doing him right.

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Originally posted by Jeremy
I'm glad every time I see the Big Show in a main event spot on SmackDown, he's being used correctly, and barring his little feud with Rey, has been booked as a monster. He's being positioned strong, which helps Brock in a sense, since Big Show is the only man who has been able to pin him on WWE TV.

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Yes, I love the fact their at least following continuity on Smackdown, and Heyman really did a good job getting him over. I never said they haven't handled him right, I'm just saying he bores the crap out of me in just about every match he's in and even good wrestlers like Brock and Angle have hard times carrying him to a decent match. As a vicious heel and opponent for Brock, he's done his job, as a wrestler, he's painful for me to watch.

And Jeremy, the reason Show is the only man who's pinned Brock on TV is because that's how the writers booked it. Guys like Angle, Cena, and Taker have all been booked in matches where Brock was pushed to the "limit" and he could have been pinned by any of those guys too had the booking crew decided to script it so.

Yeah, I know that. I'm just glad to see them actually make use of an established backstory to keep not only one guy strong, but two guys.

Yes, I guess that's true. Still, I'm hoping, for quality of the in-ring product, they wrap that feud up soon. It's been going on off-and-on since like October of last year and it's time to insert some more fresh blood into the main even scene.

I actually wouldn't mind it if they had Shaniqua become Benoit's valet and turn him heel, then set him up in a program with Brock. Those are some guaranteed ***1/2 to potentially even ***** star matches right there... :)

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
Yes, I love the fact their at least following continuity on Smackdown, and Heyman really did a good job getting him over. I never said they haven't handled him right, I'm just saying he bores the crap out of me in just about every match he's in and even good wrestlers like Brock and Angle have hard times carrying him to a decent match. As a vicious heel and opponent for Brock, he's done his job, as a wrestler, he's painful for me to watch.

And Jeremy, the reason Show is the only man who's pinned Brock on TV is because that's how the writers booked it. Guys like Angle, Cena, and Taker have all been booked in matches where Brock was pushed to the "limit" and he could have been pinned by any of those guys too had the booking crew decided to script it so.

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Everything is scripted.

I guess we just have different views of what we like. I enjoy hard workers in the ring, but I can also enjoy different aspects. I don't want everybody to be super technicians. I want somebody like a Big Show or Kane to round off the roster. Just different.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
Yes, I guess that's true. Still, I'm hoping, for quality of the in-ring product, they wrap that feud up soon. It's been going on off-and-on since like October of last year and it's time to insert some more fresh blood into the main even scene.

I actually wouldn't mind it if they had Shaniqua become Benoit's valet and turn him heel, then set him up in a program with Brock. Those are some guaranteed ***1/2 to potentially even ***** star matches right there... :)

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Maybe. But Benoit is one of the most cheered, none-piped, faces. People respect the guy. And Eddy G was incredibly over with the fans last week, only to have that come crashing down on him during a heel turn. Oh well.

Smackdown does need heels though, and RAW does need faces.

Just read the Smackdown spoilers, and this week's episode sounds great, though a few stupid, stupid things happen as well. Some of the spoilers:

Cena and Angle have a rap battle!! This sounds awesome.
Vince announces himself vs. Zach Gowen at Vengeance (?!?!)
Vince announces Steph vs. Sable at Vengeance (ooh, boy)
The brackets for the U.S. Title tourney are finally announced, with the finals happening at Vengeance

The finals or semi-finals?

Like will it just be the 1 match or the 3? I want the 3.

I'm not sure, the impression I got was that just the final match will be on the PPV.

Personally I thought Raw was pretty damn good.

And who the hell did Triple H piss off? He's nowhere to be seen on Raw, he doesn't even come out with his Evolution cronies... but he's on HEAT... which means he was in the building since they are taped at the same time...

:lol:

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Originally posted by Andrew
Everything is scripted.

I guess we just have different views of what we like. I enjoy hard workers in the ring, but I can also enjoy different aspects. I don't want everybody to be super technicians. I want somebody like a Big Show or Kane to round off the roster. Just different.

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Fair enough. We'll just have to agree to disagree on this I suppose, but I can see it from your point of view now and understand why you feel like ya do.

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Maybe. But Benoit is one of the most cheered, none-piped, faces. People respect the guy. And Eddy G was incredibly over with the fans last week, only to have that come crashing down on him during a heel turn. Oh well.

Smackdown does need heels though, and RAW does need faces.

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Fair enough, and I guess I can understand your point with Benoit. I could also see Shaniqua trying to tempt Benoit but Chris rejects it so she goes with Rhyno instead, starting the teased breakup feud.

Mebbe then we'll finally see Benoit re-elevated back to the top card. The sooner the better, though, IMHO :)

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Originally posted by Dolemite
Just read the Smackdown spoilers, and this week's episode sounds great, though a few stupid, stupid things happen as well. Some of the spoilers:

Cena and Angle have a rap battle!! This sounds awesome.
Vince announces himself vs. Zach Gowen at Vengeance (?!?!)
Vince announces Steph vs. Sable at Vengeance (ooh, boy)
The brackets for the U.S. Title tourney are finally announced, with the finals happening at Vengeance

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In order:

Yay!
Ugh...
UGH!
Finally!

Sounds like Smackdown will be doing it's usual job of entertaining me with the non-Vince/Steph-related promos and wrestling, and pissing me off with the McMahon's weekly ego rub *sigh*.

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Originally posted by GohanX
And who the hell did Triple H piss off? He's nowhere to be seen on Raw, he doesn't even come out with his Evolution cronies... but he's on HEAT... which means he was in the building since they are taped at the same time...

:lol:

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Believe me, if Triple H wasn't on Raw, it was because he didn't want to be, that's all. Either that, or he couldn't get it up for Steph the night before. :)

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
Fair enough, and I guess I can understand your point with Benoit. I could also see Shaniqua trying to tempt Benoit but Chris rejects it so she goes with Rhyno instead, starting the teased breakup feud.

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See, now that's a good plot twist of a storyline. It would also set up a slew of Rhyno vs. Benoit matches that I would personally like to see.

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Mebbe then we'll finally see Benoit re-elevated back to the top card. The sooner the better, though, IMHO :)



In order:

Yay!
Ugh...
UGH!
Finally!

Sounds like Smackdown will be doing it's usual job of entertaining me with the non-Vince/Steph-related promos and wrestling, and pissing me off with the McMahon's weekly ego rub *sigh*.

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I agree the sooner, but they have to do it right, otherwise it's a waste. Last week Stephanie McMahon and Vince McMahon put on a pretty entertaining main event, but I think it's because the ending had huge impact and meaning.

Too bad I don't like Gowen. Hopefully this will be the beginning of the end for the fued.

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Originally posted by Dolemite
Believe me, if Triple H wasn't on Raw, it was because he didn't want to be, that's all.

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yeah the self proclaimed hardest worker in the industry my ass...

I was upset that Triple H wasn't on Raw. Because of the Game's absense, I found the show sub-par and boring. Hopefully he'll be on next Monday to save that show from sucking.

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Originally posted by Will
Thoughts about tonight's RAW...

1)Gail Kim is NOT that hot.

2)What a great transition from Chief Morley back to Val Venis. HAHAHAH!

3)Kevin Nash vs Test had the potential to kick alot of ass since Test was being labeled as a Kevin Nash knockoff, I noticed how big Kevin still was compared to Test and I was like whoah.

Anyway Jason Rivera said it in his site and I'm gonna re-iterate it.



3)Kane's face unveiled. Wow keep the fucking mask on dude, and the whole plot of him getting angry at the non-sensical "mockery" really looked stupid and forced. Plus he shaved his already fucked up hair which actually didn't look that bad since the mask hid his receding hairline.

I think the whole demasking thing has gone bust.

4)Wow Booker T finally won a semi-decent belt! Looks like he'll remain in the middle tier wrestler group until his retirement.

5)The Shawn Michaels/Chris Jericho thing started out pretty good but it fizzled out in the end.

6)That new guy who got his ass beat by Jericho has one of the most generic jobber entrance musics ever. That's the whole point given his position but funny nontheless.

7)Randy Orton is getting better but still needs alittle work. Dump flair and develop something more, he's leagues better than the dull as a rock Batista at the least.

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Great post. I think the Y2J-HBK would have worked if Bret was actually involved, and I was thrilled Test got the basically clean win.

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Originally posted by Andrew
I like the Big Show for what he is: The Giant character. He isn't big, or smart, he's just big and mean. He plays the character out well. I don't want every wrestler to be a Benoit, it saturates the industry. I don't want every wrestler to be like one certain style. If you're slower and stronger, fine, but Big Show is a pretty unique athlete in his size alone, and plays the role well.

It's not about getting 'over'. He gets heat, he's a good heel character. I think you missed the point of my original post.

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That's all true, but I'd rather see Show beat the hell out of someone I don't care about than ruin a potential 4-5 star main event.

I mean, do you seriously think the main will be better with him than without him?

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Originally posted by burgundy
That's all true, but I'd rather see Show beat the hell out of someone I don't care about than ruin a potential 4-5 star main event.

I mean, do you seriously think the main will be better with him than without him?

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It makes the match safer for Angle. I think it affords more protection to Angle since Brock and Show can pummel each other instead of Angle taking the all the bumps by himself. I'm kinda glad they're not rushing Angle into a singles match vs. Brock. You know there's no way those two one-on-one would be able to tone down their match like they now can with Show involved.

Besides, regardless of how I feel about Show, if he's not in the main event -especially for this PPV - you're basically wasting him. There's absolutely no reason to have him employed in the WWE if he's going to be in mid-card matches.

Tonight was one of the best SD's of the year.

That Cena/Angle rap battle was great :)

Also, it appears that Steph now suffers from 'roid rage' like her husband and Big Sloppy Dump.

"SAABBLLEE RRAAUUUGGGHHHH!!" :lol:

I missed the opening segment due to storms. :(

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Originally posted by FighterX
Tonight was one of the best SD's of the year.

That Cena/Angle rap battle was great :)

Also, it appears that Steph now suffers from 'roid rage' like her husband and Big Sloppy Dump.

"SAABBLLEE RRAAUUUGGGHHHH!!" :lol:

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I disagree. I think there has been a ton of better SD eps this year already.

And yea, the Steph/Vince stuff lately has been really, really, bad.

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Originally posted by burgundy
I missed the opening segment due to storms. :(

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I got home late and missed it too. I wanted my rap battle. :(

Well, at least pwtorch.com posted a complete recap of the segment:

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***Your Olympic Hero comes out and grabs the mic talking about the upcoming Thee Way Dance at the Vengeneance PPV with Big Show and Brock Lesnar. He calls out his two opponents, but wait a second. Out comes John Cena. Time for some Thuganomics!

Yo yo yo!

You’re forgetting John Cena. You got rocks in your brain?
You’re gold was out in ’96. You need t o sport a gold chain
Now, you and Brock are “close friends” and Big Show, he needs a bra
That’s not a triple threat match Kurt, that’s a ménage a trois
And by the time you all wrestle, there will be an empty arena
The main event at Vengeance is Undertaker-Cena
You’re not better than me Kurt, you’re not even my equal
I'm like terminator 3, you’re like a Legally Blonde -sequel
It makes me sick when you come out here and run your little mouth
We in the great white north but you can bite my great white south

Crowd:
CENA~! CENA~! CENA~!

Angle:
Wow, John, I didn't think it was possible but I think I finally found someone in the company that's whiter then I am. But that's besides the point. See John, I've seen you in the ring and I will give your “mad props.”
oh yeah, but there's something you need to know about me. You see, as a wrestler Cena,, I'm multitalented, oh its true.You see John, I can do Greco roman, I can even do amateur…but sometimes I just like to kick it freestyle!

Cena:
no, no, no, no, no,
wait, wait wait wait
You can't see me dog,
Yo, you couldn't find through lines if your brain had lojack
How am I going to get out battled by a wannabe Kojak?!

Angle:
Ok, I don't even know what you just said (NICE!), but if you meant if you meant i can out rap you i'm willing to try. hey ref, you do that beatbox thing right? I've seen you do that beatbox thing, get in here.
Get your microphone, get in here. I want you to give me a beat. Give me a funky beat ..something like that
Hey you know what you remind me of that police academy guy, that's pretty good, keep going

KURT DANCES~!

Angle Rap:
My name is Kurt Angle and what the heck
I won a gold metal with a broken freckin neck
You better step off because we ain’t friends
I'm moving on up like the Jefferson's
You don't scare me, no no no
I may suck but you just blow

Cena:
yo yo yo
That was foul, that was foul You don't know what you’re talking about. It’s obvious,

Crowd:
ANGLE~! ANGLE~! ANGLE~!

Cena:
Shut up!Its obvious you and the rest of these white boys out here never majored in Thuganomics! (Kurt then goes over and hugs Cena)

Cena:
what the hell was that?

Angle:
Well you obviously never majored in huganomics, East Siiiiiiiiiiiiiiiiide! Word Life!

Cena:
no no no
I didn't want to do this to you but its on. I'm gonna waste you like

Angle:
What are you going to do Cena?What are you going to do? Here's a rhyme you can take the bank Cena
I'll be straight up. I won't take your crap
You mess me with me, and I will make you tap

This brought out the Big Show, which gave time for Cena to sneak attack Angle and hit him with the FU. Big Show lorded over Angle to end the segment.

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Sounds awesome.

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Originally posted by FighterX
"SAABBLLEE RRAAUUUGGGHHHH!!" :lol:

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:lol:

WWE Baby photos. This is awesome. :)

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Angle:
Wow, John, I didn't think it was possible but I think I finally found someone in the company that's whiter then I am.

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:lol:

man that first pic of bubba...HILLARIOUS :)
and then i saw RVD....holeee shit!

http://mysite.freeserve.com/wwfmi/babyrvd261001.jpg
RVD



:lol:

Poor Mick lost his home in a fire :(

http://www.navarrepress.com/articles/news/n1.html

Good Smackdown last night. The Gowen stuff was kept to a minimum and all the matches were good. Velocity is pretty good too, whenever I get to catch it I'm not just watching it because I have nothing else to do or there's nothing else on TV.... okay maybe a little bit.

Eddy - Ultimo could've used more time, it was awesome for what it was though.

Good show!

Fantastic SmackDown. The Big Show continues to be a highlight of the show, and the Cena/Angle stuff was great.

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Originally posted by burgundy
I mean, do you seriously think the main will be better with him than without him?

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I think it will be geniunely great and then when Angle and Brock meet up one on one again it will be amazing.

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Originally posted by Kidnemo
I disagree. I think there has been a ton of better SD eps this year already.

And yea, the Steph/Vince stuff lately has been really, really, bad.

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Definitely have been better Smackdowns this year. The Cena/Angle rap-off was the highlight of the show, easily. It was just about every kind of awesome there is :) The APA v. FBI v. Basham Brothers v. Kidman & Mysterio match was fun as were the Matt Hardy & Shannon Moore v. Chris Benoit & Rhyno and Guerrero vs Ultimo Dragon matches, but none were really THAT good, scene much better wrestling on Smackdown this year.

And, man, did they ever screw up Eddie's interview segment if they were intending to get him over as a heel. He excused his behavior by saying he has a temper and it's time for him to look out for no. 1, and that Tajiri making contact with his car was the equivalent of messing with his woman (Mamasita). Jeez, when you're trying to turn someone who's over like Eddy heel you don't have him give reasonable explanation for his actions and still play to the crowd. Yeesh...I really hope the WWE either starts taking steps to make him more of a heel or just keep him a badass face which that interview just turned him into, and make Tajiri the angry heel seeking revenge.

And the Vince/Gowen/Stephanie/Sable clusterfuq...again: ugh... :confused:

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Originally posted by FighterX
Poor Mick lost his home in a fire :(

http://www.navarrepress.com/articles/news/n1.html

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Damn, that sucks, good thing no one was there when it happened. And just when it looked like he was about to make his comeback and put on a series of matches with Orton. I hope this doesn't throw a wrench into that :(

I bet Vince burned Mick's house down so that he would be forced to come back to WWE fill time again for the money to get a new one. :)

haha... I wouldn't put it passed ol' Vinny Mac.

I just read that WWE signed former WCW valet Daffney to a contract! Holy shit, I hope this is true!!! :D :D :D :D

It's okay. I would like Crowbar to come back (just without a stupid gimmick)

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Originally posted by Dolemite
I just read that WWE signed former WCW valet Daffney to a contract! Holy shit, I hope this is true!!! :D :D :D :D

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YES! :D

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Originally posted by Jeremy
Fantastic SmackDown. The Big Show continues to be a highlight of the show

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I hate the Pig Shit. I think it's time for a new angle w/ him.

Highlight? HAH! :rolleyes:

.

*chomp*

Best looking Goldust character model ever in a game.

I never saw the appeal of Daffney... she just annoyed the shit out of me.

You'll see soon....oh yes, you will. :)

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Originally posted by TobalRox
I never saw the appeal of Daffney... she just annoyed the shit out of me.

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I saw her at Ring of Honor a few weeks ago. She's hotter now.

WHo the hell is Daffney anyway?

The girl that used to hang around David Flair and Crowbar and scream a lot.

Raw Spoilers





Good old JR was set on fire with gasoline. This angle with Kane is lame. JR even asked why Kane didn't have any visible burns, I actually thought they were going somewhere with that. So Kane is a full fledged heel then, hopefuly maybe they will do something interesting and have JR blame Austin for what Kane did to him.

That episode of Raw was stinky :(

Dafney is soo damn hot. I'd bang her to the bottom of the barrel

They're going to have to do some serious editing to the JR screaming thing if they want it to sound the least bit decent in video packages. Raw was... there. Eric and Y2J ruled though.

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Originally posted by TobalRox
I never saw the appeal of Daffney... she just annoyed the shit out of me.

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she had that semi-goth look that works for some guys.

i watched raw tonight for the first time in a while..saw the evolution vs dudlys match, holy fuck, has it really gotten that bad? that match went absolutley nowhere.

frostwolf ex: Watch Smackdown. That's a thorough show.

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Originally posted by frostwolf ex
she had that semi-goth look that works for some guys.

i watched raw tonight for the first time in a while..saw the evolution vs dudlys match, holy fuck, has it really gotten that bad? that match went absolutley nowhere.

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....and of course, HHH made the pin.

Booker vs. Christian didn't go anywhere either, same as the Maven vs. Storm match.

The Kane storyline is spinning it's wheels as well.

These La Resistance angles have become almost embarassing to watch. They might fly with the redneck crowd in Trailer Park, MS but they don't entertain me.

Natiionalism can be done right. Last week's Highlight Reel was great before they fucked it up.

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Originally posted by FighterX
....and of course, HHH made the pin.

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Maybe I blinked, but I coulda swore that Orton got the pin.

Orton got all three pinfalls. He could have been referring to how HHH set the pins up though.

This is Daffney...

Still does nothing for me. I've seen hot goths, and she's not one of them. And that constant screaming is what annoyed the piss out of me all the time.

Trip was the highlight of the night. He's a trooper for working through that injury.

I missed Raw (except for the JR getting set on fire thing at the end). What injury?

He's got a hematoma in his left leg.

And he rules for working through it. That kind of injury probably would have kept someone like Benoit or Jericho out for a month.

whats a hematoma?

Isn't it like a big blood clot? From what I've read he's had problems with that on a regular basis.

And yeah, say what you want about the man, but I'll never question his passion, toughness, or devotion to this sport. The man tore his fucking quad right off his knee and he finished the match anyway! That's hardcore. Working with a blood clot must seem like child's play after that. Most people would end up phoning in their performance if they were banging the bosses daughter but he busts his ass every night. Got to give the man his props.

I've never doubted HHH's toughness, and if he indeed was having a hematoma last night and worked through it, he deserves major props. I also cannot imagine what physical torture he put himself through to get back into wrestling shape after that horrific injury a couple years ago. For that I give him respect.

But for me, a big part of the reason the company has been failing the past few years isn't just because of idiotic angles and booking by Vince, Steph, and the booking team, it's also because of HHH and how much pull he's had with how everything has gone down. He's single-handedly held-down and squashed the living hell out of guys like RVD, Kane, Booker T, and Chris Jericho to keep them from getting over and stealing some of his spotlight away on the upper card. He is almost as much responsible for the downward-spiral the company has been going in the past few years from his incessant refusal to put any new talent over as Vince, Steph, and the bookers are. He's a big reason why the upper-card on RAW has become so ridiculously stale. Remember how Rock was giving Hurricane of all people the rub around Wrestlemania for about a month putting him over and getting him heat? I finally thought they were gonna do something with Helms, then one week later, HHH Pedigrees him back to the lower-midcard and, once again, he's been stuck their ever since. For that, I give the man disrespect.

Triple H is the anti-Foley. He works under extreme conditions, and that all on it's lonesome is something you have to respect, but the tick is that Trips might actually think he IS God... When it comes to wrestling, anyway.

Foley never bought into his own hype... But because of that, he ended up helping a bit to make Triple H who he is... Creeeepy.

didnt they resign mick to a 2 year deal? i miseed raw last night and a couple the past month but ive noticed he's disappeared. he done again? and whats with austin getting the can next week supposedly? im so sick of them popping in people for a quick (albeit low) ratings spike and then making them go away.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
But for me, a big part of the reason the company has been failing the past few years isn't just because of idiotic angles and booking by Vince, Steph, and the booking team, it's also because of HHH and how much pull he's had with how everything has gone down. He's single-handedly held-down and squashed the living hell out of guys like RVD, Kane, Booker T, and Chris Jericho to keep them from getting over and stealing some of his spotlight away on the upper card. He is almost as much responsible for the downward-spiral the company has been going in the past few years from his incessant refusal to put any new talent over as Vince, Steph, and the bookers are. He's a big reason why the upper-card on RAW has become so ridiculously stale. Remember how Rock was giving Hurricane of all people the rub around Wrestlemania for about a month putting him over and getting him heat? I finally thought they were gonna do something with Helms, then one week later, HHH Pedigrees him back to the lower-midcard and, once again, he's been stuck their ever since. For that, I give the man disrespect.

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Helms belongs in the lower-midcard, because he isn't anywhere near the level of desire or skill of HHH. You have to stand back for the hurricane because it stinks so badly. You can hate Trip for holding other stars down, but you also have to realize that none of the guys you listed are people I would like to see in the main event or as a champion. Booker T was five-time WCW champion when WCW's ratings were in the toilet. RVD held the ECW TV title for years, and ECW still never went anywhere. Neither of them are draws, and they never will be.

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Originally posted by omfgninjas
Helms belongs in the lower-midcard, because he isn't anywhere near the level of desire or skill of HHH. You have to stand back for the hurricane because it stinks so badly. You can hate Trip for holding other stars down, but you also have to realize that none of the guys you listed are people I would like to see in the main event or as a champion. Booker T was five-time WCW champion when WCW's ratings were in the toilet. RVD held the ECW TV title for years, and ECW still never went anywhere. Neither of them are draws, and they never will be.

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Testify.

There's no one else on Raw who deserves to be champion. Trip has proven himself, and no one else has.

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Originally posted by omfgninjas
Booker T was five-time WCW champion when WCW's ratings were in the toilet. RVD held the ECW TV title for years, and ECW still never went anywhere. Neither of them are draws, and they never will be.

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RVD and Booker T's situation back then kinda sounds like what HHH has done with the WWE' ratings in the last few years.

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Originally posted by AFX
There's no one else on Raw who deserves to be champion. Trip has proven himself, and no one else has.

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My thoughts as well. I try to remain silent when I hear HHH bashing, because I've bashed my fair share of wrestlers, but this man personifies the love and dedication to a sport that I want to see in a champion. Only Angle and perhaps one or two others are also on this level, IMO. This man jobbed to the Brooklyn Brawler for Chrissake'. He himself was "held down" for a period of time (see Curtain Call). This man has paid his dues and until someone proves they can carry RAW in his stead, you keep the strap on him.

Booker T was made the WCW World Heavyweight Champion during a time when NOTHING could have saved the company. RVD was never put into a serious main event slot in ECW except when Shane Douglas was out injured when he was their world champion.

The TV title there was NOT the primary title, and he wasn't put in too many programs that were made to draw money, barring the Lynn-RVD feud. RVD should have won the world title from Rhino after Rhino won it from the Sandman, at least then the final ECW PPV would have ended on a happy note for fans, as they'd wanted to see RVD with the world title for years.

the way i feel is....how can you prove yourself when its the writers that decide weather you win or loose? regardless of you putting on a good show or not (which i believe rvd and booker t both did when facing HHH) if the writers dont want you up there you wont ever get there.

i dont see how anybody else can prove they can run the helm at raw with the roster (being as limited as it is, not lack of talent) and writing in the shambles that it is. but thats just me.

The Raw rating dropped from a 4.2 last week to a 3.8 this week, which just goes to show that not having Triple H on last week was enough to make people tune out this week. I predict another high rating next week, since people will learn that he's back through word of mouth.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
I've never doubted HHH's toughness, and if he indeed was having a hematoma last night and worked through it, he deserves major props. I also cannot imagine what physical torture he put himself through to get back into wrestling shape after that horrific injury a couple years ago. For that I give him respect.

But for me, a big part of the reason the company has been failing the past few years isn't just because of idiotic angles and booking by Vince, Steph, and the booking team, it's also because of HHH and how much pull he's had with how everything has gone down. He's single-handedly held-down and squashed the living hell out of guys like RVD, Kane, Booker T, and Chris Jericho to keep them from getting over and stealing some of his spotlight away on the upper card. He is almost as much responsible for the downward-spiral the company has been going in the past few years from his incessant refusal to put any new talent over as Vince, Steph, and the bookers are. He's a big reason why the upper-card on RAW has become so ridiculously stale. Remember how Rock was giving Hurricane of all people the rub around Wrestlemania for about a month putting him over and getting him heat? I finally thought they were gonna do something with Helms, then one week later, HHH Pedigrees him back to the lower-midcard and, once again, he's been stuck their ever since. For that, I give the man disrespect.

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I don't think it's like that. Triple H only has the power the others allow him to have. They've essentially taken the chain off of the perverbal dog here and now people are blaming it, as opposed to the master.

I don't think that's justification. Triple H is a good wrestler and hasn't proven otherwise. I believe the booking and writing and the stuck up attitude of upper management are the problems. Triple H is a simple scapegoat right now.

*takes deep breath*

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Originally posted by omfgninjas
Helms belongs in the lower-midcard, because he isn't anywhere near the level of desire or skill of HHH. You have to stand back for the hurricane because it stinks so badly. You can hate Trip for holding other stars down, but you also have to realize that none of the guys you listed are people I would like to see in the main event or as a champion. Booker T was five-time WCW champion when WCW's ratings were in the toilet. RVD held the ECW TV title for years, and ECW still never went anywhere. Neither of them are draws, and they never will be.

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I agree Helms really hasn't demonstrated he deserves to be elevated, but that wasn't the point I was making omfg. What I was trying to get at is that the Rock spent a solid month building up Helms to possibly be elevated to at least the upper-midcard and into a worthwhile feud, and it took HHH one show after Rock was finished to tear everything down and send Helms spiraling back into the abyss. That is just a clear example as to what HHH has been doing to other wrestlers since coming back: tearing them down, and just how quickly he can do it.

As for your views on Booker T and RVD, I disagree. Up until HHH beat and pinned him cleanly earlier this year RVD was still over as hell, only within the timespan since then has his popularity dropped.

Booker T is still over as hell. In fact, he's probably the most over face on RAW. The crowd's still love him and he can work a mic and a match very well still. It's a miracle after that embarassing feud with HHH up to and before Wrestlemania the guy still has his heat, but it just goes to show the power of the guy's personality.

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Originally posted by Kidnemo
RVD and Booker T's situation back then kinda sounds like what HHH has done with the WWE' ratings in the last few years.

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Originally posted by Jeremy
Booker T was made the WCW World Heavyweight Champion during a time when NOTHING could have saved the company. RVD was never put into a serious main event slot in ECW except when Shane Douglas was out injured when he was their world champion.

The TV title there was NOT the primary title, and he wasn't put in too many programs that were made to draw money, barring the Lynn-RVD feud. RVD should have won the world title from Rhino after Rhino won it from the Sandman, at least then the final ECW PPV would have ended on a happy note for fans, as they'd wanted to see RVD with the world title for years.

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I agree with Kidenomo and Jeremy on this, HHH is reigning now on RAW the way Booker T and RVD did on WCW and ECW's deathbeds, and it's hardly complimentary. The point is the ratings are in the tank now even with HHH as champion and the WWE doesn't seem to want to do anything to try and change it. A title switch to RVD or Booker might've done wonders and revitalized the ratings instead of keeping them stagnant as they have been with Trips as champ. Anything would have been better instead of keeping the company in the near-death state it's been the past couple of years.

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Originally posted by AFX
Testify.

There's no one else on Raw who deserves to be champion. Trip has proven himself, and no one else has.

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Because he and the booking crew haven't ALLOWED anyone to prove themselves. Seriously, how can someone do that unless their given the title strap and see what they can do with it? Too bad it seems to be permanently superglued to HHH's waist.

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Originally posted by TheGooch
My thoughts as well. I try to remain silent when I hear HHH bashing, because I've bashed my fair share of wrestlers, but this man personifies the love and dedication to a sport that I want to see in a champion. Only Angle and perhaps one or two others are also on this level, IMO. This man jobbed to the Brooklyn Brawler for Chrissake'. He himself was "held down" for a period of time (see Curtain Call). This man has paid his dues and until someone proves they can carry RAW in his stead, you keep the strap on him.

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HHH jobbed to the Brooklyn Brawler back in the mid-late 90's when he was still using the upper-class snob Hunter Hearst Helmsley character before his evolution (excuse the pun) into the rebellious badass HHH with DX. Whenever someone enters the company like that from the developmental front they have to pay their dues like that and eventually HHH did climbed the ladder. From the mid-late 90's through early 2001 at the time of his injury he was one of the best wrestlers in the company and I was a big fan of his.

It's what he's done in the 19 or so months since his comeback that has really turned me sour on the guy...

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Originally posted by AFX
The Raw rating dropped from a 4.2 last week to a 3.8 this week, which just goes to show that not having Triple H on last week was enough to make people tune out this week. I predict another high rating next week, since people will learn that he's back through word of mouth.

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OK, so HHH's presence was the difference between it being really crappy and really, really crappy. That's nothing, man. We've seen that kind of small fluctuations in the ratings of RAW all the time (just check Wrestling Observer's history on RAW ratings to see that). Trips presence probably had nothing to do with that.

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Originally posted by Andrew
I don't think it's like that. Triple H only has the power the others allow him to have. They've essentially taken the chain off of the perverbal dog here and now people are blaming it, as opposed to the master.

I don't think that's justification. Triple H is a good wrestler and hasn't proven otherwise. I believe the booking and writing and the stuck up attitude of upper management are the problems. Triple H is a simple scapegoat right now.

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I don't believe that Andrew. There's no way the booking crew would be idiotic enough to keep HHH in the position he is in now without seeing any real improvement in the ratings, they would have switched the title to someone else by now to try to attempt to resucitate this sagging product.

But being engaged to Stephanie McMahon doesn't just provide HHH the benefit of banging the boss' daughter, it also gives him a lot of pull with the writers, something which he surely has used to help keep him on top like he has, particularly since his comeback. If the booking were completely up to the writers, the upper-card on RAW would be a hell of a lot more competetive right now.

/me runs out of breath and collapses :p

You can try to deny it all you want, but Triple H is the WWE. He lives and breathes it, and he's the one keeping it afloat. Say what you want about The Game, but he's who people tune in to see.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
As for your views on Booker T and RVD, I disagree. Up until HHH beat and pinned him cleanly earlier this year RVD was still over as hell, only within the timespan since then has his popularity dropped.

Booker T is still over as hell. In fact, he's probably the most over face on RAW. The crowd's still love him and he can work a mic and a match very well still. It's a miracle after that embarassing feud with HHH up to and before Wrestlemania the guy still has his heat, but it just goes to show the power of the guy's personality.

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If you're going on fan reaction, then Trip is still the top man in wrestling, since he gets a huge mixed cheer/boo reaction everytime he comes out that's much louder than Booker T could hope for. Also going by fan reaction, the Booker/Christian match this Monday was the most boring, uninteresting match in years, considering the silence that resonated through my ears.

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A title switch to RVD or Booker might've done wonders and revitalized the ratings instead of keeping them stagnant as they have been with Trips as champ.

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You mean like how ratings absolutely soared when Brock beat Rock to become the youngest champion ever, becoming the first guy as champ in years that wasn't Triple H/Rock/Undertaker/Angle and all the already established stars?

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I don't believe that Andrew. There's no way the booking crew would be idiotic enough to keep HHH in the position he is in now without seeing any real improvement in the ratings, they would have switched the title to someone else by now to try to attempt to resucitate this sagging product.

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Smackdown hasn't improved in the ratings either, and it's got all the fresh new guys doing their thing. Back in fall of 2002 when Brock, Mysterio, Benoit, Angle and the Guerreros owned the show, nothing changed ratings-wise. It's time to accept that the business is in a downcycle, and no amount of pushing Internet favorites will change that until the writing itself picks up.

There are different ways to view the show than through the eyes of Scott Keith.

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Originally posted by AFX
You can try to deny it all you want, but Triple H is the WWE. He lives and breathes it, and he's the one keeping it afloat. Say what you want about The Game, but he's who people tune in to see.

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Yes, AFX, the incredibly small share of 3.8 to 4.2 tune in to see HHH holding the belt forever and making the upper-card stale, retarded segments like Kane setting Jim Ross on fire, idiotic booking like burying Lance Storm with a "boring" gimmick and turning fans off to the mat wrestling the company's supposedly trying so switch to. This as opposed to the over 15.0 share RAW used to regularly pull back in it's heyday when they offered so much more.

Yup, you're right, bro, HHH IS the WWE...the shitty WWE that's been treading WCW and ECW-like financial ruin the past few years with it's shit decision-making.

Rag, remember, AFX= DA KANG of satire...

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Originally posted by AFX
You can try to deny it all you want, but Triple H is the WWE.

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you know,i agree entirely, HHH defines the current state of raw perfectly.

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Originally posted by omfgninjas
If you're going on fan reaction, then Trip is still the top man in wrestling, since he gets a huge mixed cheer/boo reaction everytime he comes out that's much louder than Booker T could hope for. Also going by fan reaction, the Booker/Christian match this Monday was the most boring, uninteresting match in years, considering the silence that resonated through my ears.

You mean like how ratings absolutely soared when Brock beat Rock to become the youngest champion ever, becoming the first guy as champ in years that wasn't Triple H/Rock/Undertaker/Angle and all the already established stars?

Smackdown hasn't improved in the ratings either, and it's got all the fresh new guys doing their thing. Back in fall of 2002 when Brock, Mysterio, Benoit, Angle and the Guerreros owned the show, nothing changed ratings-wise. It's time to accept that the business is in a downcycle, and no amount of pushing Internet favorites will change that until the writing itself picks up.

There are different ways to view the show than through the eyes of Scott Keith.

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omfg, I'm just expressing my own personal views, if many of my opinions happen to be shared with Scott Keith, great, then we both view the same problems. Unlike him I still love Hogan and miss him terribly, though :)

Fall 2002 was the best and most consistent wrestling programming the WWE was providing in a long time, and it entertained the hell out of me even if the ratings remained stagnant. If the WWE had stuck with that long enough and taken a similar approach with RAW, their flagship show, I'm certain the ratings would've started turning around by now. Of course, the McMahons being as impatient as they are switched things around again and brought back the ridiculous angles and crappy wrestling and assured things would stay in the toilet.

HHH is over as a heel, yes, the point is he's one of the ONLY ones over because he's been holding so many other guys down and the booking crew isn't doing anything else to get them over! Booker is the only really-over face on RAW right now and it just makes sense to try putting the belt on the guy or at least putting him in another program with HHH that doesn't involve as much borderline-racist nonesense that plagued their feud before WM19 and HHH squashing him.

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Originally posted by Jeremy
Rag, remember, AFX= DA KANG of satire...

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I know :p :chick:

lol

This thread turned silly.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red

I don't believe that Andrew. There's no way the booking crew would be idiotic enough to keep HHH in the position he is in now without seeing any real improvement in the ratings, they would have switched the title to someone else by now to try to attempt to resucitate this sagging product.

But being engaged to Stephanie McMahon doesn't just provide HHH the benefit of banging the boss' daughter, it also gives him a lot of pull with the writers, something which he surely has used to help keep him on top like he has, particularly since his comeback. If the booking were completely up to the writers, the upper-card on RAW would be a hell of a lot more competetive right now.

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But it's still in their power. If they let him get away with it, then it's their fault. Triple H is just another wrestler to try and pull ahead, again, it's like they took the chain off of the dog and are wondering why it's peeing in their prize winning patunias.

Writing and booking are two different things BTW. The agents book the matches.

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Originally posted by Andrew
But it's still in their power. If they let him get away with it, then it's their fault. Triple H is just another wrestler to try and pull ahead, again, it's like they took the chain off of the dog and are wondering why it's peeing in their prize winning patunias.

Writing and booking are two different things BTW. The agents book the matches.

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My bad, sometimes get the agents and writers confused so I just tend to pool them together in the same pool and just call 'em writers.

And even if they are letting him get around with it, they shouldn't be. It was one thing back when Hogan was doing it in the 1980's when he was regularly putting on great matches, his popularity and that of wrestling overall were incredibly high, he was bringing in the ratings and bringing in the cash. HHH is doing the same thing except putting on medoicre-to-average matches, has decent popularity but paled in comparison to Hogan's, and is NOT bringing in the ratings OR the cash.

When Hogan had that insane run during the 80's, it was the best decision, business and ratings-wise for the WWE and Hogan also managed to put on good matches on top of that, so the bookers and writers let him get away with it. HHH doesn't bring the ratings or the business, and unless in the ring with someone who can wrestle very well, usually puts on average at best matches. He's just using his position as the soon-to-be son-in-law of the owner to get what he wants, regardless of what's good for the company or not.

The same comparison could be made for when Flair had a similar run in the NWA, where he would push himself and friends above others. This was somewhat justified due to him drawing money while doing it. When Bill Watts did something similar as booker, it wasn't justified due to it not bringing any money into the company.

Anyways, SD was good tonight, nothing great though, barring the Benoit-Hardy match. Eddie continues to rule. The Sable-Steph stuff was funny for all the wrong reasons. The handicap match was nice. It was good to see Kurt outsmart his opponents.

for starters, they can book him in a match every monday with a few midcards to boost the ratings, then they should make a note not to wrestle nash again.

They should see about getting Vince Russo back for heading the writing team. I belive he was the one giving RAW a comeback during their wcw fued.

Well, he's in TNA now, so no dice on Russo coming back to WWE again.

Voltz, were you a fan of his during his WCW run? He did some good things, but also made a lot of poor decisions. But then again, if he were back in the WWE, he'd have Vince to keep him on a leash again.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
It was one thing back when Hogan was doing it in the 1980's when he was regularly putting on great matches

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What the hell are you talking about?

I guess I can agree with the rest.

Hogan did have a string of great matches with Paul Orndorff, but aside from that, and an occasional great match with Piper and Savage, his 80s stuff was pretty formulatic.

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Originally posted by Jeremy
Anyways, SD was good tonight, nothing great though, barring the Benoit-Hardy match. Eddie continues to rule. The Sable-Steph stuff was funny for all the wrong reasons. The handicap match was nice. It was good to see Kurt outsmart his opponents.

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V1 stole the show IMO, I just hope he's alright. I have a ton of respect for him for working through that broken nose and I was actually pulling for him by the end.

Otherwise my favorite points were the foodfight and the RCIPPLER sign. The handicap match was excellent as well.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
My bad, sometimes get the agents and writers confused so I just tend to pool them together in the same pool and just call 'em writers.

And even if they are letting him get around with it, they shouldn't be. It was one thing back when Hogan was doing it in the 1980's when he was regularly putting on great matches, his popularity and that of wrestling overall were incredibly high, he was bringing in the ratings and bringing in the cash. HHH is doing the same thing except putting on medoicre-to-average matches, has decent popularity but paled in comparison to Hogan's, and is NOT bringing in the ratings OR the cash.

When Hogan had that insane run during the 80's, it was the best decision, business and ratings-wise for the WWE and Hogan also managed to put on good matches on top of that, so the bookers and writers let him get away with it. HHH doesn't bring the ratings or the business, and unless in the ring with someone who can wrestle very well, usually puts on average at best matches. He's just using his position as the soon-to-be son-in-law of the owner to get what he wants, regardless of what's good for the company or not.

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But, like you said, the ratings aren't going up and there isn't due cause to allow Triple H to do it besides fear or some political force. Triple H is considered a wrestler, like Hogan. If McMahon hadn't let this get out of hand, there wouldn't be a problem.

Again, see my dog analogy.

Hmm...I was just at a site, and I came across an interesting fact there- Zach Gowen can't possibly lose the Royal Rumble, because both his feet can't touch the ground. :)

Also, certain submission holds or moves won't work on him...Flair can't slap the Figure 4 on him, and forget about the Walls of Jericho, a catapult or the Sharpshooter. A Half-Boston Crab might still work well...

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Originally posted by TobalRox
Voltz, were you a fan of his during his WCW run? He did some good things, but also made a lot of poor decisions. But then again, if he were back in the WWE, he'd have Vince to keep him on a leash again.

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I had to give up cable at the time, so I didn't know if he was making the show any better or not. But yeah, even on a leash he could still add stability to the program.

Did anyone see that match with Billy Gunn? That part where he was smacking his own hand seemed to be the worst acting I've ever seen! :lol: The only way they'll get past this is to make up another angle on it.

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Originally posted by burgundy
What the hell are you talking about?

I guess I can agree with the rest.

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Oh, well, burgundy, mebbe it's the was of nostalgia that makes me think better of them than they really were or something, but I always found the WM main events Hogan was in up till around WM9 or 10 or so to be pretty good. His matches with Andre at WM3, Savage at WM5, and Ultimate Warrior at WM6 were all unbelievably fantastic and are part of what made me love wrestling as much as I did.

I wish I remembered more about his matches that were on free TV, but those are already becoming hazy in my memory, and it's the great PPV ones that have always stuck out in my mind :)

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Originally posted by Andrew
But, like you said, the ratings aren't going up and there isn't due cause to allow Triple H to do it besides fear or some political force. Triple H is considered a wrestler, like Hogan. If McMahon hadn't let this get out of hand, there wouldn't be a problem.

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But again, Andrew, two things: one, Hogan wasn't banging Daddy's Little Girl to stay on top. He did it because he wrestled well, was insanely popular, and bringing in the ratings AND the cash. HHH isn't even half as popular now as Hogan was then, isn't wrestling as well, and not bringing in the cash or the ratings.

When Hogan's popularity started waning McMahon already started trying to do a transition phase, introducing new stars like Ultimate Warrior, Undertaker, Bret Hart and Shawn Michaels, among others, to eventually take his place. He'd be doing the same thing on Raw right now if it weren't for the fact HHH is soon going to be his son-in-law, probably gonna give him a grandchild, and thus, Vince is pretty much letting him do what he wants even if it's hurting the company. For that, both he and Trips are at fault.

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Again, see my dog analogy.

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Err, what dog analogy? :)

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
Err, what dog analogy? :)

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eh? :confused:

Rag: What does him banging Stephanie have to do with what I'm saying? She's doing the same. She's the one is power and letting it happen, so it's the same as I've always said.

Dolemite, it's kind of ironic that you'd mention the sharpshooter with Gowen since he has apparantly done a version of it without his fake leg.

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Originally posted by Ragnarok the Red
HHH jobbed to the Brooklyn Brawler back in the mid-late 90's when he was still using the upper-class snob Hunter Hearst Helmsley character before his evolution (excuse the pun) into the rebellious badass HHH with DX.

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No, it was with the Game HHH. HHH got laid out with a chair and Brawler pinned him. This was a one time comeback match for Brawler, though I can't recall what the exact circumstances surrounding the match were. I was shocked when it occurred.

It's hard to argue with Rag over the HHH debate considering that his opinions on the matter are formed by Internet writers that are telling him what to think. Perhaps he is a victim of a different type of HHH brainwashing?

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But again, Andrew, two things: one, Hogan wasn't banging Daddy's Little Girl to stay on top. He did it because he wrestled well, was insanely popular, and bringing in the ratings AND the cash. HHH isn't even half as popular now as Hogan was then, isn't wrestling as well, and not bringing in the cash or the ratings.

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This is still a silly argument, because you keep suggesting other wrestlers that should be in HHH's position, yet those guys are drawing even less cash and less fan response than HHH. Regardless of if they are being held down or not, the fans are going to cheer for who they want to cheer for, and only Benoit and RVD on a good night can get an ovation near what HHH consistently gets.

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Originally Posted by Dolemite

Hmm...I was just at a site, and I came across an interesting fact there- Zach Gowen can't possibly lose the Royal Rumble, because both his feet can't touch the ground. :)

Also, certain submission holds or moves won't work on him...Flair can't slap the Figure 4 on him, and forget about the Walls of Jericho, a catapult or the Sharpshooter. A Half-Boston Crab might still work well...

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Have you been reading Lance Storms site?

wait a second, so this gowan guy really only has one leg and wrestles matches? man i wish my area got smackdown.