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Next Gen published the opinions of Jonathan Smith (Traveller's Takes), Peter Molyneaux (Lionhead), and Simon Byron (Author) on their least favorite game mechanics. It's a good read and dead on from my experience... except for leaving out escort missions.
Simon Byron is dead on. Stealth has ruined so many games. Metal Gear Solid 1, which started the trend, has pretty ass gameplay (2 and 3 are mildly better). It's one of those things that sounds great, looks great in previews, but almost never turns out well.
Escort missions are a matter of bad design. RE4 did it good, IMO - but thats about it.
I don't mind stealth as long as it's central to the game and done well (I like Thief because u can get caught and then run away and try something different, rather than just failing miserably right there). It's when games throw in a stealth level when their game clearly isn't suited for it that I get frustrated. Escort missions are the worst though. I used to get paid to babysit. Why would I pay for the opportunity to do it now?
I like this man.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jonathan Smith
Also, Peter Molyneux' comment makes me think he played one too many Square RPG.
Stealth in stealth games (Splinter Cell and Thief) is compelling and immersive.
lol @ the makers of Haven (TT) [edit: and, lol X 2, B&W] preaching about annoying game design.
Glad Molyneux didn't make any comments about developer's under delivering on promises, being a design evil.
Traveller's Tales showed so much promise with Mickey Mania & Puggsy (Genny/Sega CD) and even on Sonic R and beyond Lego Star Wars hasn't done crap.
I don't like too many long ass cutscenes either, but 3 minutes? Damn, you can take a little time to tell the storyQuote:
The worst is when you have just won a big battle and have been rewarded but you can't try out the reward until you've sat through three minutes of story.
Agreed, and I watch everything once, even if the story is meh.
The problem is when they arn't skipable, which is just ridiculous.
...or slyly bashing OBLIVION's level system.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoofNee
The only time Escort Missions are fun is if the characters you are escorting are more powerful than you and actually serve a purpose. That, and have sufficient AI so they don't shoot you in the back or get in the way. I have yet to see this implemented right.
Stealth games can be awesome if done correctly (MGS, Thief, Splinter Cell), but if you combine stealth AND escort missions, that's just a formula for flying controllers.
That's more of an accompanyment mision.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eggroll
The cutscenes in Metal Gear Solid 3 added so much to the game, it was integral to the game.Quote:
“The whole notion of cut-scenes smacks to me of commercial breaks on TV. They are pointless and usually done very badly.
Even the small cutscenes in Devil May Cry 3 & Resident Evil 4 were bonuses that really rewarded you.
I can see if he means a game like FFX, but a lot of games do them right.
No one remembers when they played the C.I.A. level in Splinter Cell?Quote:
“But when you think about games, do you remember the bit where you blew away a load of guys with a rocket launcher, or do you remember the bit where you sat quietly in a dark room? Games should be about fantasy and action - if I want to hide in a cupboard I can do that anytime.
I remember the strategies, tension & the close calls more then firing any rocket launcher in Halo 2 or any other game.
As well as levelling up, I'd include nearly everything else about RPGs as well.
Levelling up also doesn't belong in as many games as it taints. It's fake difficulty pacing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mikey
If there is one thing I cannot stand, it is escort missions. They interupt the flow of the game and for a majority of the games out there, ruin them. I could see them playing a little better as AI becomes more developed and the developers aren't lazy enough to slack off.
Stealth doesn't bother me as much in games that focus around it, but when it is thrown in there for the hell of it AKA PD0, it sucks balls.
If you want really frustrating stealth gameplay, try the Syphon Filter series. In SF2's McKenzie Airbase mission where you are Lian Xing, you need to escape. Taking out any of the airbase personnel is not an option. If you are seen, you are SOL- you can not try to run for cover and ride out the alert ala Metal Gear. Mission failed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Wow... I disagree with all three. First guy is totally wrong, second guy I can understand where he's coming from, and stealth certainly doesn't need to be in every game, but it can be really fun, and Peter also has somewhat of a point but just comes off as whiny and you can't just say get rid of all cutscenes.
Yes.Quote:
Originally Posted by doshi
True, but the Half-Life reference makes a lot of sense. Story can be very important, but games like Xenosaga are unforgivable.Quote:
Originally Posted by doshi
I cant read his mind, but I bet if there were more game stories worth a damn he wouldnt be complaining. Game stories are so fucking terrible.
I completely agree. The first guy just seemed like he was stretching to find something flawed in current game design. "Unbalance games"? That just makes no sense, and as a developer he should know that there should always be a good balance of difficulty in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by shidoshi
The second guy just seems to hate stealth games. He made a huge generalization by saying "It seems to me that only a very peculiar individual would want to spend on-screen time sitting still or creeping around.". He should talk to the millions of gamers that have purchased all three Splinter Cell games, and all three MGS games. Obviously putting stealth into every game, when it isn't a core mechanic is not necessarily good design, but damn, people who like stealth games are now "very peculiar individuals"? WTF mate?
And Peter needs to take some his own advice, considering Fable was full of shitty cinemas that revolved around an equally shitty story + it had escort missions. Granted I did enjoy Fable, but the fact that he has fallen into one of these game design evils, and then has a discussion on why it's bad is just laughable.
I'm not saying there aren't problems with some current trends in game design, because there definitely are. But when 3 reletivly well respected people in the industry spout non sense like this, and don't even address real problems in game design, it makes me cringe. I do have to agree though, escort missions are the fucking suck, for reals.
Molyneux was the stealth guy. But here is my list:
1) Escort
2) Crappy stealth
3) Rubberband AI
There are not enough escort missions to make it a real pain in the ass. My real gripe is against exploring an entire realm to get the left ball of a Zeus statue and then having to go to another place entirely to get his right ball. Please stop this bullshit (I'm looking at you, Metroid Prime).
Simon Byron was the stealth guy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
Oh, sorry about that. Well then you're right, unless he is criticizing his own ideas, then he really doesn't have a leg to stand on here.
As long as they aren't stupid, I like cutscenes. Even absurdly gratuitous ones like in Xenosaga. The criticism of cutscenes has always struck me as bizarre; people like movies, people like television shows. The idea that these things suddenly become unenjoyable because they're within the context of a game is nonsense. There's alot to be said for the way Half Life presents its plot, but it doesn't have to be to the exclusion of any other approach.
But stealth, that I'll knock. There are a few instances where I've been okay with it, but waiting-waiting-waiting for a myopic guard to walk past just isn't much fun for me. Splinter Cell always came across as a grind to me for that reason. Ninja Gaiden is more fun than Tenchu.
The criticism of games having moderate difficulty is pretty peculiar.
Agreed. The IGA Castlevanias are a great example.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChaoofNee
You're kidding, right?Quote:
Originally Posted by Razor Ramon
Those are pretty damned good. I'd replace crappy stealth with leveling in action games though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
The only games I've played with escort missions are Prince of Persia, Resident Evil 4 and Silent Hill 4. Only SH4 has been a real bitch about the escort system.
Then again I don't play as many games as other members of this board do.
But that's more a matter of personal preference in gameplay then it is a "game design evil". Which is what this article is in regards to. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it's bad design. Especially in the case of Splinter Cell, which in my opinion (and I'm sure many others) provided stealth gameplay at it's finest.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
I also think, like Joust posted, rubberband AI is easily one of the worst offenders of "game design evils". There is no reason anymore, especially with tons of AI middleware being released, to have rubberband AI. None at all.
I'm not sure where anything enters into this discussion that isn't personal preference.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brand X
QFT. That's one reason I rarely care about skipping through cutscenes in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
To be sure, stealth elements are put into too many games they don't belong, much like RPG elements. However, 'true' stealth games like Thief and Splinter Cell are solid games and I challenge anyone to prove otherwise.
EDIT: The worst part isn't that Peter M. is criticizing stealth gameplay, but rather that those who enjoy it are creepy stalker types. This from the asshole who claimed he could make the greatest RPG ever (which had stealth elements I might add).
I hate generic fire and ice levels. Really boring and lame.
I hate platformers, that doesn't mean I think there's something wrong with the people who play them. Like they should be outside navigating an obstacle course instead.
Is this even an issue anymore? It's not 1993 anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by kingoffighters
That's in almost every stealth sequence in the Syphon Filter series. And yes, they completely suck.Quote:
Originally Posted by gameoverDude
I agree to an extent with the dislike for stealth. If a game is based on stealth (Metal Gear Solid, Splinter Cell) then I'm all for it. I also don't mind stealth in non-stealth games as long as it is only an option, and not a requirement (Escape From Butcher Bay). But when stealth is required in non-stealth games (Wind Waker), it really irks me.
My personal game design evil is unconsistent save/check points. By this I mean parts of a game where you can long stretches without a save or check point, and other parts where save/check points are every few minutes. Metroid Prime's Phazon Mines come to mind.
Speaking of it not being 1993 anymore, why doesn't every game have a save wherever feature like PC games have for the last 15 years?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nash
Though i don't really agree with Molyneiux about the whole "if you play stealth games you're a stalker" bit, he DOES make a point that a lot of the design to stealth games is just plain crap. Like when you're 20 feet away from a guy in MGS and he just can't see you. I think it has more to do with the AI in stealth games being crappy. They just aren't as observant as they should be to make the game believable and enjoyable.
And I dunno wtf the first guy is talking about games being too balanced. I personally think games are the most fun when they require a high level of skill to play through, like Ninja Gaiden and God of War on very high difficulties. Who the hell wants to play a ridiculously easy game? Because it gives you a feeling of "godly power"? That becomes boring after like 2 minutes of playing the game. The guy's mental.
I love being able to save whenever, but I find it very hard to avoid abusing it.
Maybe I could go for a temporary quicksave system or something. Self-deletes on loading.
1. MOLYNEAUX DID NOT COMPLAIN ABOUT STEALTH. GAH!Quote:
Originally Posted by TaekwondoNJ
2. He SPECIFICALLY SAID that games should be either very hard or very easy (I assume your NG and GoW examples are in the former). He said it was NOT GOOD how so many games are "medium", and require you to just bleh your way through. Combined with liberal save systems this sucks the tension and fun out of a game. If you kept reading you wouldve noticed he said that RPGs are pretty lame because all they require you to do is grind your way up to a high level. There's no skill involved, all it requires is your presence.
The good thing about them is that no one's forcing a pre-determined save point on you. You decide when to save, not the developer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tain
As for esccort missions: I loathe them. I played GTA 3 all the way up until that point where you had to escort the bank vans and were pursued by another gang (I think). I did it around 3 times and got fed up. My game's still there, waiting 3 years for me to go back to it. Bleh.
Another design evil that they forgot is excessive trial-and-error, which developers erroneously call "replay value." Doing something 40 times to get it done right is not fun, no matter how "real" you try to say it is. I can't tell you how many times games like Splinter Cell and Medal of Honor: Frontline pissed me off in that you did one little thing wrong and had to redo the entire level. Fuck that noise.
God of War did a great job of implementing "trial and error" gameplay. The ending areas with spinning spikes that so many seem to hate can be figured out, and it's incredibly rewarding when it happens. Plus, you are given checkpoints throughout the sections.
If you're referring to quicksaves, I've something to say against 'em. The ability to stop and pick up a game whenever you want is a good idea--and quick saves are good for this--but it's just way, way too easy for both 1) the player to abuse, and 2) the game designer to rely on. So much level design in PC FPS games leads to ambushes and instant deaths you can't avoid, but hey it's no big deal 'cause the player's been hitting F6 constantly, so who cares? Let 'em reload and try that thirty-second stretch of gameplay again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
As for player abuse, it's something that's not clear cut enough--even to me, when playing--where using quick saves is cheapening the experience or just doing what's necessary. I like the Castlevania/Metroid save systems where you have the challenge of getting from one point to the other without dying. It's a finite challenge designed by the developer. PC quick saves completely undo any challenge design a game has. Go play Super Mario Bros. on an emulator with savestates for proof.
I agree that a self-deleting quicksave is the best way to go. It doesn't spoil the challenge design at all and makes it possible for players to quit playing whenever they need to.
Simon Byron's arguments against stealth are pretty straw-manny. An RPG explosion versus sitting in a cupboard? Eh, not quite accurate if considering the leaders in stealth gameplay.
I generally like stealth gameplay, though two things can completely ruin it for me: 1) inconsistent, buggy AI (most bad stealth games suffer this: Riddick, Pandora Tomorrow), 2) instant mission failure if caught (especially if due to inconsistent, buggy AI).
Molyneux's analogy of cutscenes being like commercials is pretty awesome (in that it doesn't make any sense). His comments reek of ADD: "“I agree that there have been some very beautiful cut scenes but even the best leave you frustrated . . . you can't try out the reward until you've sat through three minutes of story." Half-Life 2's storytelling works well for the game, but I wouldn't necessarily want to see it in every game.
Holy shit I agree 100% with everything MarkRyan just said. The world must be coming to an end!
I agree with MarkRyan on the quicksave thing... it is something that IMO the world needs less of, not more. Now, people usually point to the example of Far Cry - the game originally had no quicksaves but was put in a patch later. The problem with Far Cry was that the designers built the game like it had quicksaves... but took them out at the end. The result was a total mess by the endgame.
Ill point to RE4 again, that game didnt have quick saves and I didnt need them: it had a good number of save points and if you died between, it put you at a reasonable spot.
The problem is that no quicksaves make the designers... design more. And I guess they don't want to do that.
Quicksaves belong in strategy games only, IMO.
There is a fire and ice level in Blade Dancer, but we have already established that game sucks anyway, hehe.
Yeah I mostly agree with this. Metal Gear Solid kind of needed stealth gameplay and I don't agree that the only action in games should be running in head first, pistols a-blazin'. In other games it might be a nice option to have (Oblvion) so long as it's not really the center of attention in the gameplay depo. But hamfisting stealth in to a game where it doesn't belong (Wind Waker) is bullshit and ruins games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
I also personally hate bottomless pits in 3D games, since they're usually accompanied by terrible camera and level design (Tenchu is notorious in my mind for abuse of the bottomless pit in 3D).
I do agree cutscenes blow too. Halflife 1 & 2 got it right.
How hard is it to put decent camera angles in 3D games? Every 3D game I've played always has some quirky camera angle that I know the developers could've fixed.
I knew the 3D camera would be gotten to eventually. Why do cameras in 3D games suck so hard? What is it about this one specific element that 10 years (or so) of development still hasn't been able to fix?
My gripe- "realism". Games aren't realistic. Any time I can take 5 bullets in a row and soldier on, or slam a car at 60MPH into another car and watch it bounce away, any claim to realism is dead. Reality just isn't a fun gameplay element.
James
I don't play games to be challenged to the point of frustration. The hardest games I want to play involve sports (soccer, ping pong, boxing, football, etc). If I'm really in to a game because I like the characters, gameplay or story I don't want to have to replay a level 30 times because the difficulty is too high for me. In fact if a game provides so much of a challenge I become tired of trying and bored with the challenge I return it. This is why difficulty levels are useful. If you like challenges you can crank it, if you just want the experience then crank it the other way -- everyone wins.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaekwondoNJ
Maybe camera's angle are harder than everyone thinks they are.
I'll agree that fucking escort missions need to go in every game. I fucking HATE having to protect stuff. I even hated it in RE 4. In fact that was the 1 thing I didnt like about that game.
I also have to go with rubberband AI also. There is nothing like playing a racing game and racing a perfect race only to have the AI right behind you no matter what. Its not thrilling at all, its fucking bullshit. If I fucking own a race the AI should be left in the dust. Being able to race well and be #1 is far more exciting than having an AI car ride your ass from start to finish.
Agreed. If Miyamoto can't come up with the perfect camera for his games, then you know it is not the easiest thing to do. The problem with camera is that it is really dependent on the type of game you play. For a stealth game like Splinter Cell, having the manual camera with the right analog was perfect.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
I find most of these complaints to be unfocused. Stealth for example is not something that should be done away with, it just needs to be used properly. It should be an option (like in Oblivion and MGS) not a neccesity.
Don't even get me started on the Cut Scene bullshit. When I play RPGs I want beautiful cut scenes to advance the story, not mindless chit chat between myself and NPCs who only have one line of dialogue (FABLE).
My only problem with cut scenes is how publishers use them to sell games.(E3) Besides that i don't see any problem. Most of the complaints with Cut Scenes are complete Shit. They are not that long and they advance the plot.They are like the 5 minute blocks of text in previous RPGs, just now visually appealing to watch. The only game that truly irked me concerning cutscenes were the xeno games becuase they dragged.
Rubberband AI is the biggest one for me, and the reason why 99% of racing games are completely worthless to me. It's the only design choice I find myself actually hating. Everything else can work as long as it's handled well, and in the case of something like save points, the need varies from game to game, and I don't think there should be some kind of hard and fast rule. I don't want games to be too easy, but I don't want to repeat the same 15 minutes of a game over and over because there's some evil boss bitch right at the end right before the next save.
Every action game should be like Half-Life 2 or Call of Duty where shit happens and you're still in control of your character. Scripted in-game events that play out differently or even cutscenes that allow you to retain your control of the character (teleporter shit in HL2) are much better than removing you from control of the character.
You can still have a cutscene every now and then but too many games have too many long cutscenes in awkward places. And making them unskippable on repeated playthroughs, or having to sit through a long, unskippable scene before a hard encounter that you'll likely have to replay several times...it's just poor design.
I think God of War did a good job with cutscenes. In fact, I think it could have used a few more. They're skippable, in the right places so it doesn't yank you out of an intense sequence, and really feel like rewards. The cutscenes in the Halo series are similar, they're used primarily to bookmark levels.
I think God of War did this right as well. The behind-the-scenes checkpoints are after every challenging area so if you fuck up a jump you don't have to fight your way through ten minutes of shit you just cleared, and the save points are frequent enough that you can sit down for ten minutes and play a chunk. I like having to complete a section of a game before reaching a point where I can turn off the console and walk away, but in RPG's especially a save anywhere feature is necessary.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yoshi
Turn that around: what if you're watching a movie and have to pick up a controller to beat a section of a game to see the next part?Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
Now that I think about it, I just described Metal Gear Solid.
I generally don't like it when a game decides to toss in a required minigame from a different genre. If I'm playing a platformer, I don't suddenly want to have to race. If it's an action game, don't cram a strategy section in there. These parts are never ever ever as polished as they should be and come off as the half-finished toss-offs that they are.
And yeah, stealth can fit in with this.
I wish the HL2 teleporter scene had been a scripted cut-scene because then maybe I could have skipped it, since it was painfully predictable and ran way too long. I really don't want control during cut-scenes, directing my POV towards the character speaking and shit. It's not immersive. It's dull. Just get them over with.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowutopia
I'm in the anti-cut-scene camp. I'm here to do stuff, not watch. A little story here and there to keep things moving is fine, but anything outside the ending cinema longer than a minute needs to go.
James
The idea that they become unenjoyable because they're within the context of a game is the whole point. If I'm enjoying a film I don't want it to stop every few minutes and ask me to pick up the remote control and engage in a game in order to see the next bit. My mind is in film-watching mode and there it should stay until I decide to stop or the film ends. My mind is in gaming mode when gaming, and if I want a break I'll pause the game. The two modes (watching and gaming) cannot and will not mix.Quote:
Originally Posted by StriderKyo
It's hard to believe people haven't figured this out after all these years.
And Kingdom Hearts.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas in iraq
2 extremely popular games. You guys are in the minority.
Just because they're popular doesn't mean people don't have problems with the product.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
You watch wrestling. You should know this.
Rock on.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
Hey, anyone who hated the spiky thing at the end of God of War, you're officially lamer than Jeremy.
p.s. it took me only a couple tries to get the second log, and I got up about 80% of it on one try. There's definitely a reason to it. I don't get the hate for it, virtually every 8-bit and 16-bit game had segments just like it.
Well, if you look at old 32-bit games... there were a LOT more cutscenes. Virtually every game had them. The RPGs had 20-40 minute noninteractive sections. Nowadays, fewer games have them, and they're shorter and more storytelling is done in-game.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
What does that tell you? People don't like noninteractive CG, as a rule.
Don't worry. I know. I just think most complaints against CG cutscenes are shallow and not shared by the majority of gamers.Quote:
Originally Posted by omfgninjas in iraq
I hate it because 1) it is unlike any other part of the game and replaces the generally solid and exciting combat with slow, monotonous platforming, and 2) the hitboxes of Kratos and/or the blades don't match the visuals.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Mostly, it's just a big "WTF" end to a hard-hitting combat game.
Your mom's hitbox doesn't match the visuals.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarkRyan
I was just going to post the same thing.
I dont hate it because it might be a challenge. I hated it because the rest of the game was moving along really well and had a nice flow to it then SMACK! Monotonous, crappy, slow platforming.
The level itself looked fucking cool BTW.
Whoops haha. Though i don't really care who it is that said what, I was just responding to the points of discussion. Though it DOES make sense that an author would be saying stuff like that about the stealth genre, rather than a full out game designer saying it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Yeah I got that. I'm just saying he's ridiculous for thinking that its better for games to be too easy than for them to be balanced. Very hard games are the most fun to me (as long as they have a learning curve and don't just chuck you into instant death situations), and if I can't play that, then I'd rather play a balanced game where I at least have to try a LITTLE rather than a very easy game where I can turn my back to the screen and still play through everything. He's saying games should be either very hard (which I agree with) or very easy (which is retarded). And I've always said RPGs don't require skill to play, they just require time to level your characters. Which is bullshit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
And someone mentioned that you can skip through the cut scenes in God of War? Is that actually true cuz I'm playing through it right now on God mode and I don't see any way to skip through them.
In regards to difficulty levels: I wish more developers would actually make games harder, not just tweak damage levels or do stupid shit. Ninja Gaiden is probably the best example of a company actually making the game more difficult in a true sense, as opposed to DMC3 or GoW which just pumped up lifebars to the point to the point where I got so bored of beating on something that had the same enemies and AI as medium that my mind would start wondering what other games there are that I could be playing. Or take Halo 2, where they would just toss constant enemies in an attempt to one-up Serious Sam. "You can handle three gold Elites? THEN TRY SIX!" If you're going to make it difficult make it so that the enemies are actually better, not so that you have to make up for flaws by just throwing more and more stuff at the player or beefing up attributes in an attempt to overwhelm them. That works for some games (like Contra) but should not be the standard.
Most of the time when I first play through an FPS I put it on hard because I know it's going to be pretty much the same thing only they'll take more shots to die, which at least provides the opportunity for intense situations (unless it's just retarded or cheats or something, like PDZ). Even then it's usually not much of a challenge, and I personally think that just shouldn't be. I completely agree with how games should be really hard or really easy, there's too much focus on medium difficulty and I think it hurts a lot of games.The SC series holds up because of its fantastic multiplayer, which is an exception considering how well it blends the different ideas. The first game was cool but single-player in the second one was pretty bad and I don't remember anyone ever talking about the third except for multi. Also, if you'd ever seen me play MGS you'd call it a balls-out action game with occasional sneaking sequences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brand X
Or you could pick a real example like KOTOR or Jade Empire (or any of their other earlier non-3D games), where they have interactive conversations that actually affect the story and how the characters interact with each other and you. That should be the standard now, not the exception.Quote:
Originally Posted by Brett
Don't get me wrong, I love a good story and I love when one is told well, but we're really at the point where interactive games should be more interactive. It's not like the technology isn't there, it's not like no one's done it before, they should really either make a movie or make a game. They're dealing with a completely different medium, yet they usually treat it like it's a movie with extended walking sequences where they let you personally kill lots of random creatures.Back when I worked in a video game store one of the two most common complaints was how MGS would be better without all that story crap (the other was how Final Fantasy VII would be better if didn't have such a terrible battle system). These are the same people that bought systems almost solely for sports games and were 90% of the store's business. Maybe that's not a shared view nationwide but they seemed like a good representation of the casual gamer and a lot of them don't like cutscenes.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
And how are complaints against it shallow?
I liked it because it was like the games of old where you were really tested with the later level designs being out to kill you at every turn. I think that folks either hated it because they hadn't seen anything like it in a long time, and were rusty, or they had never played older games that had those kinds of sections in them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
And Sword of the Berserk.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
Nope, I hated it because it ruined the flow of the game. It wasn't hard. I just wanted to continue to deal out combos, solve a puzzle here and there, decapitate enemies, and lay the smackdown on some bosses. There were platform sequences throughout the game, and I never once minded those because the game still flowed well. It was only when the entire Hades level was platforming that everything went from fifth gear to second gear.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeremy
My two main problems:
- FRAMERATES...I would rather have fewer minor graphical effects than a framerate less than 30fps. I'm sick of having to chug through games just because developers want to pimp some extra shadowing or textures.
- CAMERA...Even if it's tricky to do, there are no more excuses why this shouldn't be remedied after more than a decade. Considering the vast number of people and $$ spent on games in the past 10 years, this should be moot.
Way off.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
I haven't played the third, but the second Splinter Cell really does have an awful single player campaign.Quote:
Originally Posted by Compass
You know, Kratos was probably on the spinning logs with spikes for a grand total of about 40 seconds or so, assuming you're not terrible and keep falling. Climbing the pillars with spikes with a bit longer, but not very. I spent more time turning the rooms in Rings of Pandora.
I agree!Quote:
Originally Posted by sethsez
Single-player in part 2 was the loading screen mini-game inbetween online matches, the kind that you play just because it's there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Compass
I never would have guessed there was so much hate for the Hades level in GoW. The spikes on the logs didn't hit me at all, and I only got hit by the ones on the climbing part like 3 or 4 times. Didn't slow the flow of the game down that much, there were platforming parts in the rest of the game as well.
What really sucked about that game was the bugs. GoW has to be the buggiest game I've played in years. Nothing as exciting as fighting the final form of the final boss just to have the game randomly lock up on you, making you watch several minutes of cutscenes again AND fight all the way back up to the final boss. Talk about annoying.
As long as you actually have something to do during an in-game sequence, it's not bad at all. Being able to choose whether to sit and watch the action or continue to advance the plotline; that's how it should be programmed, and some games do this already, and do it well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ammadeau
You should be able to, as the main character, interrupt a speech with a voiced interjection and continue the action. Think in the beginning of an FPS when someone is explaining controls. Press a "skip" button and you say, "It's alright seargent, you don't need to cover the basics with me." Bit over. Game continue.
Now those parts killed the flow of the game for me. TaekwondoNJ, I didn't have the misfortune of running into bugs when I played through it. Although I would be very pissed if they screwed up the final battle, because that ruled.Quote:
Originally Posted by sethsez
This is true, I've experienced a lot of bugs and my friends have noticed even more.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaekwondoNJ
When you work hard for a reward in a game, it's always nice to be able to completely dominate for at least a level or so. Having your upgrades match the difficulty ramp-up stride for stride is shit.Quote:
Originally Posted by TaekwondoNJ
Becuase most of them are 'They take forever.' when most game have CG cutscenes for 3 minutes a piece, or the great ' I don't want to switch my mode" As if their brain is going from red to blue whenever they stop controlling a character.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Those kind of people wouldn't buy a MGS or Final Fantasy anyway. They play sports game as you pointed out and cutting all the cutscenes out of MGS isn't going to make it magically more appealing.
Or maybe they have just gotten better at telling an effective story with less CG time. I have played FF7,8, and 9 ever since Advent Children came out and I noticed that all 3 games had a large amount pf cutscenes but were used effectively better each game so i didn't notice it as much. It's not a issue of not having CG, just using them well. Not as a crutch to tell your story.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
3 minutes is almost the length of a full commercial break. Do you like commercials?Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
I hate that comparision.I have never seen a CG movie where the focus of the scene was different every 30 seconds. A CG movie is almost always focused on telling you a solid narrative whereas T.V commercials are completely random and never stay on topic.
CG usually = Japan
Japan != solid narrative (or more appropriately, Japan = !(solid narrative))
Thus, hell with CG. In fact games should be REQUIRED to have in-engine cutscenes if they're going to do cutscenes.
Don't necessarily agree with the rest of your statement, but this part is something I can get behind. I really hate CG in games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust Williams
I think we're also at the point where CG really isn't needed anymore, unless you're rushing something for E3 and don't have anything to show in the first place.
I did find it funny seeing a CG clip from FFVII recently and remembering back to when my friends and I would talk about how awesome it would be when the in-game graphics looked as good as that.
Mass Effect is the exact kind of thing we should be moving towards. More involvement and direct control of a character and less removal of the player from the game. Far more interesting and entertaining instead of "playing" someone I have no control over. Even unbroken narrative like Half-Life, Breakdown, and Rainbow Six: Las Vegas helps a lot as I'd really like to see all uncontrollable cutscenes down to a minimum whenever possible. If it's something like time passing or some otherwise intensely boring task, then sure, skip ahead or just give us a little clip of part of it (like the wait command in Shenmue 2) but otherwise we should be moving towards making games playable in every respect.It was primarily, "I don't want to hear about any of them and I just want to get back to kicking ass."Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
Well, they did. They'll buy anything hyped or that looks pretty in commercials.Quote:
Those kind of people wouldn't buy a MGS or Final Fantasy anyway.
They did say they enjoyed playing the game and removing the cutscenes would make it more enjoyable. They weren't playing for the story, they were playing because they loved fucking with guards, setting up traps, shooting guys, etc.Quote:
They play sports game as you pointed out and cutting all the cutscenes out of MGS isn't going to make it magically more appealing.
It's still 3 minutes of bullshit that you shouldn't have to watch every playthrough.Quote:
Originally Posted by avatar
On the other hand, there is almost never a way to skip in-person "cutscenes" though. I thought it was a TCR that Xbox cutscenes had to be skippable.
I can enjoy animated cut scenes when they're well placed, like in the Ys and Lunar series. It's like a reward for getting to that point, and I often save my game in a different slot afterward so that I can go back and watch the scene whenever I want. Obtuse CG scenes that can't be skipped make me sick, and that's one reason why I could never get into games like Xenosaga.
Um, yes they can: Press start and then triangle. The extra nifty part about that is how Xenosaga's can be paused unlike most games. Incredibly handy for poorly-timed phone calls.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
p.s. What CG cutscene in Xenosaga had less to do with story progession or character development then the boat song in Lunar?
If your cut scenes need a pause option... they're too fucking long.
What I meant was that I found the Lunar boat song (great example, btw) infinitely more entertaining. Why?Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Bingo. The boat song was well crafted, entertaining, and not long enough to make you sigh in defeat. Just my opinion, though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
I agree with Melf.
3 minutes to develop the story? If you can't spare 3 minutes to understandf the story then...oh well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cowutopia
Because it didn't really add anything to anything. It was an adorable song, yes, but that was about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Melf
I said that because Xenosaga has a long story with a lot of characters and tons of info that needs to be gotten across, and while there was some unneccesary stuff the cutscenes almost always moved something forward. I found it very odd that you would label information "obtuse" while saying pure fluff is far superior.
As an aside: Lunar was neither charming enough to convince me to play through (unlike Rhapsody) nor driven enough to maintain my interest. Cute little game but it just couldn't find a way to make me care about it.Take a look at Half-Life 2. On the forefront you have required story progression scenes that you can't skip through, but there's a ton of background info all over the place provided you take the time to look for it. That's the sort of thing that in other games they would usually create cutscenes just for and you would have to go through all the time (some RPGs do litter extra information in libraries for those that bother to look). It's a balance and I think as the genre progresses they'll get better at that integration.Quote:
Originally Posted by Joust
All cutscenes need a pause option, I don't care if they're only 15 seconds long.Quote:
Originally Posted by Diff-chan
Exactly how long is Xenosaga, from beginning to end? How much of that is spent watching "information?" Far too much, in my opinion. There are other ways to get the story across without forcing the player to sit there for hours watching it unfold whether he likes it or not. Use the in-game engine, make it journal entries like Metroid Prime, anything. Forcing the character to spend almost half the game watching a movie isn't the most ideal way to go about it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Chris
Being able to skip the scenes is useless when the whole story is done this way exclusively. You're basically telling the player that he doesn't have to watch the scenes if he doesn't want to, but that he'll end up not knowing what's going on if he doesn't. What's the point of making them skippable then? When I looked at my playtime and realized that almost 40% of it had been spent watching cut scenes, I stopped playing and never touched the game again. It just seemed so stupid to me.