We are teaching our kids to be worthless and lazy

I had to go with my eldest sister today to get some school stuff done. One of these things was something in regards to the school band. She plays the trumpet, or did. She stopped playing years ago.

She and the teacher talked about this and that. One of the things that stuck out in my mind was the comment "it can take up to a year to change this."

How true that is. It's true for just about anything worthwhile. College takes years, art takes years, martial arts take years, music takes years, etc, etc. Everything worth a damn takes years. YEARS.

But I don't see anyone communicating that to young people. Movies and Tv always have people with natural ability. More times than not the hero and villain are two sides of a whiz kid coin. School and training are given only when to show just how much of a whiz the kid really is. About how good of grades the person got, our how they graduated at 12.

No one is telling today’s youth that worthwhile things take both time (years of your life) and work.

Personally I think we are doing the future a disservice by not teaching tomorrows youth this. To many people just give up because they aren't "gifted." I know just a little bit about history (just enough to me annoying I guess =P ) but from what I've gathered, many great people got there through dedication and hard work. Not because of natural ability, if not in spite of having a lack of ability.

Anyone agree, or am I full of shit?

what

It doesn't take years, it just takes a montage. ;)

It takes 12 years to finish school. Isn't that enough?

Besides, you can work hard your entire life and get nowhere, and someone who just coasts through life on charm, charisma, and good looks can get everything their heart desires. Maybe the lesson we should be teaching is to make the most of what you have.

I don't know how worthwhile a life would be lived out on charm, charisma and good looks.

I'm sure you'd get laid, and have nice stuff, but that isn't point of life. Maybe the point of being 25, but not life as a whole.

What is the point of life?

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but in this rare instance i agree with you, there could be a bit more attention paid to the importance of diligent hard work.

It's more than that. Kids are so coddled now. They grow up with a sense of entitlement, like they are the center of the universe. My mom is an elementry school teacher, two of my good friends are as well, and my gf teaches high school. They have all chosen at points in thier career to teach at poorer schools because they hate the rich and middle class children and thier "involved" parents far more than the kids born on the wrong side of town. Parents need to back off, not buy thier kids every little thing they desire, and not give into this culture of gratification that is spoiling a generation on a whole new level.

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Originally Posted by stormy

It's more than that. Kids are so coddled now. They grow up with a sense of entitlement, like they are the center of the universe. My mom is an elementry school teacher, two of my good friends are as well, and my gf teaches high school. They have all chosen at points in thier career to teach at poorer schools because they hate the rich and middle class children and thier "involved" parents far more than the kids born on the wrong side of town. Parents need to back off, not buy thier kids every little thing they desire, and not give into this culture of gratification that is spoiling a generation on a whole new level.

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have you ever seen that sweet 16 show on mtv? It is a prime example of that kind of spoiled modern American kid crap. Every time I see a girl on there from the west coast I just want to break my tv. The last time I saw it a girl was given her choice of cars on a car lot. If that wasn't bad enough, she whined because she couldn't get the cute sports car that had a high fatality rate but settled on a suv. Why a suv? It matched her glasses.

Yep, you read that right. She chose her future driving vehicle because it matched today's sunglasses.

Everyone everywhere is od'ed on entertainment. The reason tv and movies and shit show whiz kids is because it is fantasy. Why would people want to fantasize about the way life really is?

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

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If I were filthy rich from the day I was born, I might do crazy shit like that too. I'll never know.

I can't stand any MTV programming.

Not only is it laziness. More to the point its self gratification. They want the end result faster. They don't realize is sometimes things take time. And most times if you work hard enough. The rewards are greater than if you were handed or cheat your way to the goal. Plus if you do the latter ... karma bites you in the ass.

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Originally Posted by Cowutopia

Everyone everywhere is od'ed on entertainment. The reason tv and movies and shit show whiz kids is because it is fantasy. Why would people want to fantasize about the way life really is?

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this isn't a problem for adults who know better. But when you're a kid raised on it, and your parents aren't telling you how it is...

What exzactly do you want parents to do? Life will teach these kids those lessons. That's all there is to it. Kids who truly want something will work for it.

Yeah, it will teach it to them, by the time they are 20. But then their youth is gone, and anything worth a damn will be hard to learn because they have already passed the "easy to learn shit" stage of their life.

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Originally Posted by stormy

It's more than that. Kids are so coddled now. They grow up with a sense of entitlement, like they are the center of the universe. My mom is an elementry school teacher, two of my good friends are as well, and my gf teaches high school. They have all chosen at points in thier career to teach at poorer schools because they hate the rich and middle class children and thier "involved" parents far more than the kids born on the wrong side of town. Parents need to back off, not buy thier kids every little thing they desire, and not give into this culture of gratification that is spoiling a generation on a whole new level.

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What? So parents shouldn't be involved? I have been to poor and rich schools and "rich" schools usaully have more smarter, more motivated and self-driven kids than "poor" schools. I think a lot of that has to do with their "involved parents"

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

Yeah, it will teach it to them, by the time they are 20. But then their youth is gone, and anything worth a damn will be hard to learn because they have already passed the "easy to learn shit" stage of their life.

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So? If they really want it they will still pursue it even if it's hard to learn now.

Don't forget that when your young you really don't care about most of this stuff. You only care about school and your friends. Not on picking careers and gauging how hard it will be and how many years it will take to finish their goal. This sounds like general bitching froom an excess of nostalgia

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Originally Posted by avatar

What? So parents shouldn't be involved? I have been to poor and rich schools and "rich" schools usually have more smarter, more motivated and self-driven kids than "poor" schools. I think a lot of that has to do with their "involved parents"

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Question, what exactly are they "smarter" and more "motivated" about. I don't really care if rich kids rock the spelling bee and are awesome at sports and karate.

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Originally Posted by avatar

So? If they really want it they will still pursue it even if it's hard to learn now.

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That’s all fine and good for a few, but you are cheating your kids if you don't at least try to prepare them for the future. Letting them know that they can be really great at something if they keep at it, is one of those things.

Delayed gratification is bullshit. By the time you get what you want, you probably don't want it anymore. People are more fickle than ever.
There's still the sense of relief and closure that comes with achieving a goal, and the tendency to place undue importance on something based on how hard you worked for it, but so what?
As far as material rewards go, I'd rather people learn the intrinsic value of things and understand the need to provide for unexpected expenses and experience the fun of spontaneous gratification.
I hate the idea that you should only work toward known goals, because it's a very short-sighted way of thinking.
I don't save money for anything in particular, but I do save money, and if I happen to come across something that I really need or want, I just buy it then and there.
There's no need to put material things on a pedestal and covet them until you have them.
As far as developing skills goes, I don't think it's so much a matter of delayed gratification as it is gradual, or incremental gratification. People don't work out or study martial arts or go to university based on the belief that they will suddenly one day wake up buff, skilled, or educated. They do it because they are constantly seeing improvement(well maybe not so much with the last one, there are a lot of diploma factories, but that's beside the point).

What really needs to be taught is that the rewards that we're programmed to seek out, the cars and toys and vacations, are not what matters in life.
I don't want kids being taught to defer their happiness to some future toy or achievement, I want them to learn to enjoy each day regardless of what they have, and to realize that working hard is more than just a means to an end.

Edit: just read the last bit of what you said. NM

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Originally Posted by kedawa

What really needs to be taught is that the rewards that we're programmed to seek out, the cars and toys and vacations, are not what matters in life.

I don't want kids being taught to defer their happiness to some future toy or achievement, I want them to learn to enjoy each day regardless of what they have, and to realize that working hard is more than just a means to an end.

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I don't think I said otherwise. I agree whole heartly that part of being happy is knowing how to be happy with you have right now.

The topic was more about people who wake up 40 one day and realize they are know/do nothings.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

Question, what exactly are they "smarter" and more "motivated" about. I don't really care if rich kids rock the spelling bee and are awesome at sports and karate.

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School. They showed up to class, completed their assignments and just seemed to want to be there unlike the many people I encountered at the poorer school. They just didn't care about anything education related.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

That’s all fine and good for a few, but you are cheating your kids if you don't at least try to prepare them for the future. Letting them know that they can be really great at something if they keep at it, is one of those things.

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That sounds like a parents job. Not MTV. Also we look at these people and at the stuff they have. Not whether or not they have deserved it. The few episodes I have seen of Super 16 or whatever usaully involes a proud parent with a child that is doing alright in life. Not with spoiled brats who do jack shit at school, have no future and have no respect.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

have you ever seen that sweet 16 show on mtv?

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Holy shit. The first time I saw that I wanted to punch myself in the balls. It was so bad, I thought it was a parody.

Kids deserve to be beaten nowadays.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

Edit: just read the last bit of what you said. NM



I don't think I said otherwise. I agree whole heartly that part of being happy is knowing how to be happy with you have right now.

The topic was more about people who wake up 40 one day and realize they are know/do nothings.

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Right. That's a really depressing situation, I'm sure.
I just wanted to point out that the pendulum can swing too far the other way as well. Being goal oriented makes sense for certain things, but there are plenty of people out there who are goal obsessed and measure their self worth based on things that are ultimately meaningless.
Parents who use their kids' accomplishments as a status symbol only reinforce that kind of (IMO) unhealthy attitude.

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Originally Posted by avatar

What? So parents shouldn't be involved? I have been to poor and rich schools and "rich" schools usaully have more smarter, more motivated and self-driven kids than "poor" schools. I think a lot of that has to do with their "involved parents"

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There is a point that goes too far, which undermines the experience for the child. The teacher student relationship is one of the first relationships a child faces where they have responsibility in it. It is up to them to negotiate this relationship and learn how to behave to improve it and get the most out of it. Parents are intruding on this by taking over management of the relationship for them. My mom's coworkers have parents that email them every day, instead of just letting them do thier job. They come to thier child's defense and fight the teacher when thier child is in the wrong, or blame the teacher for thier child's poor grades. I guess i'm saying the parents have the same problem the kids do, they all believe thier child is entitled to special treatment.

Parents are supposed to be involved in their child's life, not take it over, not shield them from any and all hardship. Rich schools do have more smart kids. Thier smarter parents make more money and have smart children. That doesn't make them better kids. There are plenty of motivated kids in the poor schools starting from a much tougher spot. It has been every teacher I know's observation that they are more well adjusted and mature for it. That's what i was getting at.

Yeah you have to a healthy medium. Yes, its good to tell a kid if they want to be good at the piano they have to practice, while on the other hand it is wrong to do something like what Beethoven’s Dad did to him (beat his ass until he got good because he wanted the status for him and his son.)

Wealthier parents are usually more involved with their kids' lives than poor parents. I really don't even get this poor=better work ethic bull. Yeah, the Mexican in the firld works hard, great. A lot of times there is a reason why you're poor (obviously, there always is ;p), and a lot of times that reason is because they ARE lazy.

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Originally Posted by stormy

There are plenty of motivated kids in the poor schools starting from a much tougher spot. It has been every teacher I know's observation that they are more well adjusted and mature for it. That's what i was getting at.

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Also, to be fair to the poor kids, some of them have shit for parents and may not have learned a very good perspective on life. If you have an abusive home life, a lot of kids eventually start to believe that is their lot in life in one way or another.

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Originally Posted by Joust Williams

and a lot of times that reason is because they ARE lazy.

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Going back to the original point of the thread, how much do you believe of that is taught and how much of it is genetic?

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Originally Posted by stormy

There is a point that goes too far, which undermines the experience for the child. The teacher student relationship is one of the first relationships a child faces where they have responsibility in it. It is up to them to negotiate this relationship and learn how to behave to improve it and get the most out of it. Parents are intruding on this by taking over management of the relationship for them. My mom's coworkers have parents that email them every day, instead of just letting them do thier job. They come to thier child's defense and fight the teacher when thier child is in the wrong, or blame the teacher for thier child's poor grades. I guess i'm saying the parents have the same problem the kids do, they all believe thier child is entitled to special treatment.

Parents are supposed to be involved in their child's life, not take it over, not shield them from any and all hardship. Rich schools do have more smart kids. Thier smarter parents make more money and have smart children. That doesn't make them better kids. There are plenty of motivated kids in the poor schools starting from a much tougher spot. It has been every teacher I know's observation that they are more well adjusted and mature for it. That's what I was getting at.

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I can understand that. Overprotective parents are a problem, but I don't think they are an all of a sudden new thing and to be honest I thinks it exaggerated. I have read,heard and seen a lot of these situations and often it looks like something could have been worked out if the 2 sides stop butting heads and worked together.

I know they are motivated and smart kids in the poorer schools but it's like trying to find a diamond in the rough. They turn out better but they are not many of them.

I don't know. I mean, there are people that believe that we are just a product of our environment 100% and that everything is fated, with the illusion of choice. So if you want to take it that far, there's not a lot to discuss. Nothing is anyone's fault. blah blah blah

I think what you two are arguing over may be different per town if not per school. In small towns where the rich kids go to school with the poor kids, the poor kids are typically little worthless bastards. I imagine that for some reason or another all schools break off into groups like that. Rich kid only schools have worthless bastards and smart kids, and all poor kids’ schools the same.

I know at my own school we had poor(ish) kids that were just worthless. They didn't care about anything other than getting drunk after school. We also had upper middle class kids, who besides being able to make the grade were worthless too. As individuals they were very shallow. All they cared about was the current teen drama and if pressed with anything worth thinking about they usually just puked back up the thoughts of their parents or local preacher.

The group that was genuinely intelligent and open minded was very small. Out 86 kids, I'd say only 4 kids were actually intelligent.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

Going back to the original point of the thread, how much do you believe of that is taught and how much of it is genetic?

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Your OP looked like you were blaming Televiosn and Movies for this rather than parents.

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Originally Posted by avatar

Your OP looked like you were blaming Televiosn and Movies for this rather than parents.

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I blame everyone.

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Originally Posted by avatar

I know they are motivated and smart kids in the poorer schools but it's like trying to find a diamond in the rough. They turn out better but they are not many of them.

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There are bad kids everywhere, but categorically the teachers i know all said they would rather deal with the bad kids in the poor neighborhood than the kids and parents in the good one. And my gf teaches in east LA! I had assumed the total opposite as well, but was proven wrong.

When teachers would rather deal with gang members than spoiled children on a day to day basis, I'd say that's indicative of serious problems in our society and the way children are being raised.

I also want to add that it has nothing to do with them not being able to get away with being lazy. The gf works 10 - 12 hour days.

it sounds like BS politics. Knowing you could be sued by some rich asshole who wants to get his way, sucks balls.

I never assumed teachers were lazy. Infact it's the exact opposite.

I'm not a teacher so I'm not going to assume I know how they work or how their life is. That said I would rather teach a rich kid than a gangster.

Kids are kids. Every child brings something different to the classroom, something that changes the fundamental way they experience life. To say "rich kids are better/worse that poor kids" is a gross generalization and fails to recognize these differences.

Are there kids that haven't figured "it" out yet? Yes. Are these kids predominately of one socio-economic/ethnic background? Maybe.

I teach in a district with 80% minority and 70% economicaly disadvantaged students and see no pattern between race or income and student performance. What I am trying to say is that bad parents can be rich or poor, black or white, up-your-ass or MIA.

And I wouldn't trust the "omg today's youth are SO _______ not like in the past" crowd on anything. Adults have always considered the younger generation to be ________ and feared the destruction of society and the onset of anarchy and - surprise - it hasn't happened yet.

In other news, support the fine arts. We teach discipline, concentration, teamwork, responsibility, and a bunch of other super important stuff that you can't get in a classroom. More fine arts = less of this "worthless and lazy" stuff.

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Originally Posted by avatar

I'm not a teacher so I'm not going to assume I know how they work or how their life is. That said I would rather teach a rich kid than a gangster.

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After 1 year you'd change your tune. I taught rich kids in a private school for 5 years and I've sworn off secondary teaching for life. They're spoiled, lazy, and think that everything is owed to them on a silver platter. They then go to college and OMG! They actually have to work! I love the fact that 75% of the responsibility is on them. I actually had one little princess' mom protest because I didn't notify her that her 20 year-old daughter was failing my course. My response? Not my job, not my problem. She's an adult and has the responsibility. I asked her why she didn't know her daughter had an F if she was so involved and she just stared at me like an idiot. She honestly thought that college was the same as those private rich schools, where teachers have to notify the parent every time the kid farts in class. She then went to the dean and got the same response.

Kids today don't want to buy their textbooks, pay for required classes offered in summer (at their request even!) and basically have an attitude that everything is theirs for the taking. Life is going to give them such a swift kick in the balls that it's not even funny.

No wait, it is.

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Originally Posted by Six

Kids are kids. Every child brings something different to the classroom, something that changes the fundamental way they experience life. To say "rich kids are better/worse that poor kids" is a gross generalization and fails to recognize these differences.

Are there kids that haven't figured "it" out yet? Yes. Are these kids predominately of one socio-economic/ethnic background? Maybe.

I teach in a district with 80% minority and 70% economicaly disadvantaged students and see no pattern between race or income and student performance. What I am trying to say is that bad parents can be rich or poor, black or white, up-your-ass or MIA.

And I wouldn't trust the "omg today's youth are SO _______ not like in the past" crowd on anything. Adults have always considered the younger generation to be ________ and feared the destruction of society and the onset of anarchy and - surprise - it hasn't happened yet.

In other news, support the fine arts. We teach discipline, concentration, teamwork, responsibility, and a bunch of other super important stuff that you can't get in a classroom. More fine arts = less of this "worthless and lazy" stuff.

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spoken like a true teacher

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Originally Posted by Melf

After 1 year you'd change your tune. I taught rich kids in a private school for 5 years and I've sworn off secondary teaching for life. They're spoiled, lazy, and think that everything is owed to them on a silver platter. They then go to college and OMG! They actually have to work! I love the fact that 75% of the responsibility is on them. I actually had one little princess' mom protest because I didn't notify her that her 20 year-old daughter was failing my course. My response? Not my job, not my problem. She's an adult and has the responsibility. I asked her why she didn't know her daughter had an F if she was so involved and she just stared at me like an idiot. She honestly thought that college was the same as those private rich schools, where teachers have to notify the parent every time the kid farts in class. She then went to the dean and got the same response.

Kids today don't want to buy their textbooks, pay for required classes offered in summer (at their request even!) and basically have an attitude that everything is theirs for the taking. Life is going to give them such a swift kick in the balls that it's not even funny.

No wait, it is.

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to be fair, somtimes college teachers are just stupid and lazy. Or just flat out hate teaching and are mean. They are rare, but I've seen it happen.

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

have you ever seen that sweet 16 show on mtv? It is a prime example of that kind of spoiled modern American kid crap. Every time I see a girl on there from the west coast I just want to break my tv. The last time I saw it a girl was given her choice of cars on a car lot. If that wasn't bad enough, she whined because she couldn't get the cute sports car that had a high fatality rate but settled on a suv. Why a suv? It matched her glasses.

Yep, you read that right. She chose her future driving vehicle because it matched today's sunglasses.

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I've just tortured myself by watching a few shows on MTV.

How about the awful awful show WHY CAN'T I BE YOU?

I don't think I've seen that one.

I wish I could youtube the episode I saw. Premise of show: someone admires someone more successful and better looking, MTV gives the admirer/stalker a chance to follow them around for a day without being arrested. Imagine the slinkiest, creepiest, shifty eyed TNLer going up to this normal guy (he doesn't know) and telling him he wants to be him and meet his wife. The entire show was as awkward and horrible as that moment. He didn't seem to have a clue why he was such an unsuccessful loser.

Thanks, MTV!

Obviously, all of MTV's reality shows are faker than wrestling.

Stop watching that channel. I have it completely removed from my channel listing. I forget that it's there until people talk about it online.

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Originally Posted by Punky Skunk

I've just tortured myself by watching a few shows on MTV.

How about the awful awful show WHY CAN'T I BE YOU?

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That's a real show? i thought MTV was joking at itself.

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Originally Posted by Punky Skunk

I wish I could youtube the episode I saw. Premise of show: someone admires someone more successful and better looking, MTV gives the admirer/stalker a chance to follow them around for a day without being arrested. Imagine the slinkiest, creepiest, shifty eyed TNLer going up to this normal guy (he doesn't know) and telling him he wants to be him and meet his wife. The entire show was as awkward and horrible as that moment. He didn't seem to have a clue why he was such an unsuccessful loser.

Thanks, MTV!

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That sounds awesome to me.

It's certainly more entertaining than The Hills (this I could see as being fake) or a crappy making of the R&B group show.

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Originally Posted by Punky Skunk

(this I could see as being fake)

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They're all fake. You're smarter than this. Sweet 16, Date My Mom, Parental Control, Why Can't I Be You, Room Raiders... every single one of them is faker than pro wrestling. I hate everyone that tries to talk to me about My Sweet 16 as if it was real like "Can you believe she made her parents do that?" It's like saying "Can you believe Papa Shango put a curse on the Ultimate Warrior and made him throw up and lose the match?"

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gDFjybKr1U0

Come on, now.

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Originally Posted by Six

In other news, support the fine arts. We teach discipline, concentration, teamwork, responsibility, and a bunch of other super important stuff that you can't get in a classroom. More fine arts = less of this "worthless and lazy" stuff.

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Fuck fine arts. Football teaches all that and gets kids in shape at the same time. School should 75% math, 15% grammar, and 10% history. When you boil it all down, that's really all that matters.

No arts at all? Thank god your not a school superintendent.

There was a "hard hitting" investigative report done up here on a Canadian news station (even a respectable one, too) which was claiming that young students nowadays were less likely to do activities that involved patience and discipline because of all the devices that give them instant gratification. Like cell phones, the internet, video games and so forth.

If you wanted to play a game of baseball in the 80's you had to organize your friends, get the equipment and find a good area (or good escape routes in case of ball to window action, and yes I'm sure that'll be turned in to a momma joke by someone). Nowadays all you need do is turn on your Playstation 2 and plop in MLB 2006.

Now I find this a bit fishy, because the way the report was reported it seemed to me like they already had the conclusion long before the investigation took place and they were trying to simply make the links so the viewers would buy it (which is bullshit journalism). But at the same time it does make some sort of sense.

What it all boils down to, as already stated, is bad parenting. If you're giving your 8 year old daughter a cell phone you're turning her in to an impatient person. Kids under 10 need a lot of stimulation, especially to help see what they're interested in (art, sports, building, music, etc).

I'm not entirely sold on the fact that kids today are any lazier than our generation or the one before it. We're just making a big deal out of nothing IMO.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

Fuck fine arts. Football teaches all that and gets kids in shape at the same time. School should 75% math, 15% grammar, and 10% history. When you boil it all down, that's really all that matters.

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No. One of the founding principals of America is capitalism. Capitalism breeds advertising and advertising breeds design. Design is simply art used for business (commercial art). I doubt math has much to do with any of this minus payroll, budget and taxes.

I agree math, history are important to learn to an extent. But advanced calculus isn't going to help anybody who's decided to become a layout artist or copywriter. Grammar is good to know no matter what, which is why students are usually forced in to more mandatory English credits than math or history.

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Originally Posted by avatar

No arts at all? Thank god your not a school superintendent.

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It depends on the school, honestly. I have nothing against arts being taught, as long as math and grammar are already well done, which seems to be rare.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

No. One of the founding principals of America is capitalism. Capitalism breeds advertising and advertising breeds design. Design is simply art used for business (commercial art). I doubt math has much to do with any of this minus payroll, budget and taxes.

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How do you think marketing studies are done?

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I agree math, history are important to learn to an extent. But advanced calculus isn't going to help anybody who's decided to become a layout artist or copywriter. Grammar is good to know no matter what, which is why students are usually forced in to more mandatory English credits than math or history.

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I'm not talking about higher math for everyone, but alegbra and basic statistics are necessary to make good decisions every day.

lol @ Andrew trying to make his field relevant.

Math is today's Latin. One hundred years ago everyone learned Latin in college because it is rigorous and was the framework around which almost all of the world's canon was built on. It was a language that served as the backdrop of the rise and fall of the Romans, the rise and fall of the Catholic Church and the Renaissance. It was believed that you could not be a functioning member of a literate society without knowing the language literate society was built on.

Well times have changed and we view the canon differently and history differently. Now we live in a world of science and statistics, of rigorous thought and analysis. Of money and the transfer of it, and how policy is money put into action. Mathematics is the backdrop to it all. If everyone knew basic statistics then politicians and pundits couldn't get away with 90% of their bullshit. We wouldn't have crap like the majority of people in the US believing Genesis was literal. You cannot be a functioning, literal member of society without knowing what a scientific, rational worldview is built on.

That is why math is so important. We have unfortunately moved away from a world in which we learn for learning's sake to a world where everything needs to be transferred into "getting a good job" or whatever. It's tragic... but thankfully math can get you a good job. ;)

So STFU Andrew.

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

lol @ Andrew trying to make his field relevant.

Math is today's Latin. One hundred years ago everyone learned Latin in college because it is rigorous and was the framework around which almost all of the world's canon was built on. It was a language that served as the backdrop of the rise and fall of the Romans, the rise and fall of the Catholic Church and the Renaissance. It was believed that you could not be a functioning member of a literate society without knowing the language literate society was built on.

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Helps with English, too! :)

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Originally Posted by Diff-chan

lol @ Andrew trying to make his field relevant.

Math is today's Latin. One hundred years ago everyone learned Latin in college because it is rigorous and was the framework around which almost all of the world's canon was built on. It was a language that served as the backdrop of the rise and fall of the Romans, the rise and fall of the Catholic Church and the Renaissance. It was believed that you could not be a functioning member of a literate society without knowing the language literate society was built on.

Well times have changed and we view the canon differently and history differently. Now we live in a world of science and statistics, of rigorous thought and analysis. Of money and the transfer of it, and how policy is money put into action. Mathematics is the backdrop to it all. If everyone knew basic statistics then politicians and pundits couldn't get away with 90% of their bullshit. We wouldn't have crap like the majority of people in the US believing Genesis was literal. You cannot be a functioning, literal member of society without knowing what a scientific, rational worldview is built on.

That is why math is so important. We have unfortunately moved away from a world in which we learn for learning's sake to a world where everything needs to be transferred into "getting a good job" or whatever. It's tragic... but thankfully math can get you a good job. ;)

So STFU Andrew.

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None of that went against what I was saying. Good post though.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I'm not talking about higher math for everyone, but alegbra and basic statistics are necessary to make good decisions every day.

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I agree with that completely. But I do believe 5 - 10% of curriculum should be left open to things like music and arts.

Well, STFU anyway.

Capitalism is built on mathematics. fv=pv(1+i)^n

most powerful formula in the universe, right there.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

I doubt math has much to do with any of this minus payroll, budget and taxes.

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here is all the shit that math does for you

builds products
runs the internet
figures out shipping
figures out taxes and everything else money wise
figures out safety ratings
predicts things like weather and how many kids will be named Andrew in the year 2007
mixes chemicals to make new things, like plastics and paint
makes modern weapons
does gps

the list goes on and on really. Just because 98% of the population doesn't know any math past fractions and division, doesn't mean it isn't used in everything.

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Originally Posted by Andrew

Grammar is good to know no matter what, which is why students are usually forced in to more mandatory English credits than math or history.

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Yes and it is taught so well.

"find the noun billy, find the noun. Did you find it? Good, now lets write our one book report of the year."

I wonder just how many people know the grammar rules, and just how many people write the way they speak and get by because they don't live around idiots like I do.

I've always seen math as a requirement to being to manage one's money and budget. And poker.

And Mortal Kombat.

Whats the damage that a bicycle kick does to scorpions head in 1.5 seconds?

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Originally Posted by buttcheeks

Yes and it is taught so well.

"find the noun billy, find the noun. Did you find it? Good, now lets write our one book report of the year."

I wonder just how many people know the grammar rules, and just how many people write the way they speak and get by because they don't live around idiots like I do.

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the list goes on and on really. Just because 98% of the population doesn't know any math past fractions and division, doesn't mean it isn't used in everything.

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Apparently, the same amount that know math. I'm sure that many people don't know their grammar rules, just as many don't know math past fractions and decimals (if that). It isn't limited to just one subject. A survey in Time Magazine this year showed that more than 50% of high school students couldn't find Iraq or even NY state on a map, and 45% didn't know when WWII was.

Being in the job I am, I use math and grammar (in the form of white papersand e-mail) everyday. A fair number of people that earn anywhere from $50k to $100+k have almost no grasp of either, which is really a sad statement on our society. I have to read e-mail with absolutely painful butchering of the English language, and people are so enumerate that I could show them any random ass chart and tell them eating Cheeseburgers on Thursdays is statistically more dangerous tha any other day, and McDonald's stock would drop in an instant.

The stuff's being taught, it's just that few are willing to grade tough enough to ensure students actually understand it. Teachers nowadays need to be more willing to flunk students. Stop all this curved grade crap.

Math programs should adopt a heavier focus on teaching economics, algebra and trig are cool and all but basic knowledge of financial terms and planning would benefit everyone.

If you have charm, charisma, and good looks, why does that mean you don't work hard? If you have all those things AND work hard you get double the rewards.

But yes, a lot of people can get everything they want in life without trying and others have to work double hard just to get to the status quo. I think it is has probably always been this way though. There isn't anything anybody can do about it.

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Originally Posted by Melf

Time Magazine this year showed that more than 50% of high school students couldn't find Iraq or even NY state on a map, and 45% didn't know when WWII was.

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pssh, Iraq is very close to Egypt, NY state is above the state to the right of Ohio, and WW2 was early to mid 1940s.

but to be fair, I don't think any of that is really taught in school much. You learn your states in like the first grade, then never again. Even in world geography Iraq is glazed over, and WW2 might get all of two weeks in the 12 years kids spend in school. A kid would have to actually give a shit about the world around him to know any of that stuff because school isn’t doing anything to reinforce that knowledge.

It's the same with using grammar. Not enough time is given to it. Kids spend more time finding parts of speech than they do using them. And in highschool it isn't even taught anymore. HS for me was mostly writing assignments, which were easy to get an A on if you got enough people to proof read.

If I ever hold a public office those are things I’d like to see changed. I feel I was done a great disservice as a child by not being taught how to write well. Kids also need a class on statistics and how to handle money before they leave HS. A person should be able to graduate any US school and know how to write a short paragraph and handle his/her checkbook.

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Originally Posted by Yoshi

I'm not talking about higher math for everyone, but alegbra and basic statistics are necessary to make good decisions every day.

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Algebra and Economics are mandatory to graduate in I think every state. They are being taught to people.

They're not being taught well or learned though.

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Originally Posted by avatar

Algebra and Economics are mandatory to graduate in I think every state. They are being taught to people.

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HS economics is pretty basic

I didn't take economics in HS.